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Old 11-08-2010, 21:19   #16
craigepo
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I agree with Quixote. My understanding is that landing on your heel transmits all of your shock back up your leg, to your knee and hip joints. Ergo, knee and hip replacement surgery when you get older.

I have run a few races with Kenyans in the pack (and no, I didn't finish anywhere close to those fast SOB's). Watching them run is kind of interesting. Initially, they grow up barefooted, and don't wear shoes until approximately 17 years of age. When they run, their forward stride doesn't extend much past their hips. But, their "back kick" is crazy long. Whatever they are doing, it works. Dudes are fast and can run forever. A Kenyan won the 25k trail run I was in a couple of weeks ago. He walked up the hills(which were long and steep) and still finished with a 7:21 pace(did I mention were forded a river 8 times, jumped logs over the trails, and were on all fours at certain points in the race?)

I started having hip pain a couple of years ago. Since then, I have quit running asphalt, switched from jogging shoes to trail shoes(which have a much thinner sole and flatter heel), and have shortened my forward stride. I'm a little slower, but have no pain, and my distance has increased dramatically.
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Old 11-08-2010, 22:06   #17
Longstreet
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My understanding is that landing on your heel transmits all of your shock back up your leg, to your knee and hip joints. Ergo, knee and hip replacement surgery when you get older.
This is what my GF said after her running seminar. The problem with modern running shoes is that they promote heel to toe steps which causes problems later on. Running barefoot or with minimal cushioning prevents this. And as mentioned earlier it is not something that is to be done full on right away. The runner must gradually start this method of running over a period of time. Simply deciding to run barefoot and then run 10km will be one hell of a sore experience. And to the best of my knowledge, one does not need to be only restricted to running on soft surfaces although I would imagine it would be preferred.

The biggest problem she told me that the instructor saw with this style of running is climate. Up here in Canada, running barefoot is fine for the summer and not so much a good idea for the winter.

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When your kid is born let him/her spend as much time crawling as possible.... does great things for upper/lower limb coordination down the road.
Of course! To clarify myself, our child will wear wetsocks when he/she actually starts walking.

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It already has to some degree with the Nike Free and such. I think it will be going much farther in the future.
You are right about the Nike Free and even track sprinting shoes can be worn too. My GF simply said that many running shoe manufacturers are hesitant about this style of running as the shoes are less expensive and they tend wear our less quickly.

Again if anyone has any questions about this, let me know and I can ask her. As a physio, she can answer questions in much greater depth than I can.
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Old 11-08-2010, 22:53   #18
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Thank you very much for all the advice. And craigepo as soon as I get a chance I'm going to order the book "Born to Run".
Once again Guys thanks for all the advice.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:45   #19
Razor
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Since I don't see the Army changing APFT run time standards any time soon, I hope you can keep up your race pace while running barefoot.
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Old 11-09-2010, 14:46   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigepo View Post
I agree with Quixote. My understanding is that landing on your heel transmits all of your shock back up your leg, to your knee and hip joints. Ergo, knee and hip replacement surgery when you get older.


I have run a few races with Kenyans in the pack (and no, I didn't finish anywhere close to those fast SOB's). Watching them run is kind of interesting. Initially, they grow up barefooted, and don't wear shoes until approximately 17 years of age. When they run, their forward stride doesn't extend much past their hips. But, their "back kick" is crazy long. Whatever they are doing, it works.
Initial contact of the foot with the ground is made on the outside edge. The weight of the body is then supported at a point which varies with the runner's speed.
There is no point in the stride cycle where a runner should be landing heel first. The slower the pace the flatter the contact* should be. As the pace increases (like up to sprinting) the higher up the forefoot contact* is made.
For this discussion contact = support phase of stride.
(phases of stride: support, drive, recovery)
Craigepo Sir, there is no such thing as a foward stride. That is called overstriding.
Stride length is the distance the center of gravity travels between each foot contact. It is the resultant of momentum plus net impluse, which is given to the mass. It is best increased by applying force down and backwards, not reaching(foward stride).
hth


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Old 11-09-2010, 15:44   #21
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My old man has been running competitively for over 50 years.
He has also coached many athletes over the years.

His knees and hips are in still in outstanding shape.
Last year, at age 65, he ran a 5000m in 19min 20 sec.

He is not a small man, and typically weighs ~170lbs when competing.

His recommendation for running shoes: get running-training shoes, not racing shoes, not cross-training shoes, and not barefoot.
He thinks the advances in running shoes over the past half-century have been a great benefit.

Concerning barefoot running: he recommends doing this as an occasional, supplementary activity on safe grassy areas.
(Make sure there's no broken glass, etc.)

He attributes much of his own longevity to careful choice in running surfaces.
-Never train on concrete. Ever.
-Severely limit training on asphalt.
-Do the majority of your training on dirt or grass.
-All-weather tracks are a better option than asphalt, if the choice is forced.
-Running on sand is a good option, but should be ramped up very gradually.

He also buys 2 pairs of training shoes and alternates their use.
The shoe material "recovers" more with additional down time.

HTH.
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Old 11-12-2010, 06:13   #22
Fatum Me Ducat
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
Since I don't see the Army changing APFT run time standards any time soon, I hope you can keep up your race pace while running barefoot.
About VFF"S
"In the meantime, they’ve been barred from use in the Army’s PT test. According to the U.S. Army Physical Fitness School, the shoes may provide too much of an advantage. “The Army Physical Fitness Test standards were developed wearing ‘traditional’ running shoes. The Vibram shoes ... may be determined to offer an unfair advantage during testing,” Army spokesman Paul Boyce said."

http://www.armytimes.com/offduty/hea...eshoes_101110/

Guess the army, with no evidence, is going to ban them saying that they make me too fast... I love how they don't say why they think it would be an advantage just that it is

As for me, i switched to vff's when i started having chronic hip pain due to bursitis in both hips. I really started upping my mileage and the pain was becoming unbearable. After hip injections didn't really work, I tried them out. I was a textbook pronating, heelstriker. So, the vffs forced me to shorten my stride and run with a mid-foot strike. Hip pain gone. I also do my traditional weight lifting in them as well as kettle bell workouts. I'll never go back. The only thing i hate about them is how i feel like a kool-aid drinking, cross-fit hippy running around Tacoma. The price is worth it though.
*You don't necessarily need to go with five fingers. There are other minimalist shoes that look more traditional but will still force the same gait corrections.

http://birthdayshoes.com/
there's some good info for those wanting to take the plunge into minimalist running
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Old 12-07-2010, 02:12   #23
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
Since I don't see the Army changing APFT run time standards any time soon, I hope you can keep up your race pace while running barefoot.
Just did 400 meter intervals with the team. Beat everyone with 80 percent(ran a 100 percent 400 and took 80 percent of that) of 1:13 barefoot for 5 repitions. Pretty stupid because it was wet outside and the ground was freezing and Ihurt my foot, but hey i rarely bring shoes to work anymore.

I have a track background. Just started doing the whole barefoot running thing. I think its a good idea if you know what you are doing. The biomechanics are completely different and if you have run in racing flats or sprint shoes then you know what im talking about.

That being said 99 percent of people I see running around bragg arent doing it correctly. I usually see people with 5 fingers or even worse 5 fingers/nike frees on treadmills pounding away like an elephant and that make me cringe. I really wish the whole 5 finger fad would go away. Seeing people doing olympic lifting with 5 fingers is even worse(dynamic jumping/weight bearing exercises). If your really gonna do it, running truly barefoot will help as the VFF's can hide alot of the pain. A big thing I found when I first started using them was you run ALOT slower for awhile. I made the transition when I was consistently running 6:30's for my 75-85 percent runs. The first few months its a struggle to run any faster than 8 per mile for any length of time. So if you have joint problems etc, the lower speed with effective biomechanics is what I beileve helps alot of people out. Usually when you run slower than 8 minutes per mile there seems to be more of a tendency to not midfoot strike.


And hes right, for speed work you need racing flats. I use inova 8's currently and thats a really good alternative and alot smarter than barefoot running. You don't see anyone running professionally using POSE running and there is a reason for that, despite what those elitest pricks want you to think. I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answers or else id be a professional runner(half of them are clueless but naturally gifted). But the POSE running crowd reminds me of the military athelete/MA crowd.....if your not doing our program your an idiot.

But anyways back to the OP's topic. Look into INOV-8. Traditional design shoe any many models weigh as much if not less than VFF's. Doesn't look goofy and performs better for running

Last edited by kawika; 12-07-2010 at 02:22.
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Old 12-07-2010, 02:40   #24
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Running barefoot kinda pointless, given the risks involved. Saw it in a lot of 3rd world shit holes, then thought, that's why its 3rd world. Then had the idea, shoes, access to clean water and dental care can quickly bring a group or culture into the modern world.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:59   #25
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Background
I am big (6'4) and heavy (~235lbs). I've run many trail and road marathons and ultras, and I "hash" (nuff said). I only run roads when I have to.

Over the years, I've worked my running style into a low-calorie-burn "shuffle" with toe strikes, though in training I like to rip up hills like a madman, and do sprints. I've done a bit of actual barefoot running on the road, as well.

I am a big proponent of toe striking and avoiding Runner's World and anyone (except me!) who offers their advice. Go to a trail race, find the gruffest, sickest bastard you can -- he'll be the guy who grins & growls as he sprints up the steepest cliff of the race, buy him a beer, and pick his brain.

VFFs
They're great. I don't have the embarrassment issue with them because I live near a town internationally famous for running, everybody has a pair. They're great for roads and non-crushed rock trails.

There's a learning curve with them. You have to learn to eliminate toe slapping and learn how to perform light foot strikes (on the ground). Shoed people are used to ramming their heels into the ground and this won't cut it for the toes.

I like them because I can feel damn near everything under my foot, and they're very well-ventilated to the atmosphere. They let me stay in tune with the terrain.

The downsides?

They suck on crushed rock trails. I had tough feet and even began running several miles of pavement actually barefoot (without VFF/shoes) and I still could not handle crushed rock in VFFs. I tried and I couldn't condition my feet to tolerate it.

The topside of the shoe isn't very durable. If you're going to be on a remote trail, bring some duct tape to seal up any holes that might develop from a fall. It really sucks having to run several miles back to the car with pebbles and dirt getting into your VFFs.

They suck in the mud. I have the rugged KSO model with the traction crap on the bottom and did a 4 mile mud race in them. It was like running on an ice skating rink. They suck for running across creeks, swamps, and heavy tree root areas.

LaSportiva Crosslites
These are great trail shoes at about $90. They're rugged, fantastic treads, very lightweight and they don't look unusual. When you first try on a pair, you have to loosen the laces up quite a bit and then tension them up to a good comfort level.

There's not a lot of bulk under the foot so it's no problem running as a toe striker in these. Even though there's not a lot of bulk, you don't have to worry about jagged rocks, the sole is solid. The treads are like soccer cleat treads, but they don't collect mud.

ASIC DuoMax
Great basic road shoe for neutral pronators. I've run several road and even trail races in them. They don't fall apart at all. I've had 3 pair now (wore the cushioning out in each back when I was a heel striker).
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