"Islam is Most Certainly False"

[SF-TX]

An interview with the fearless coptic priest, Father Zakaria Botros:

FP: In what way can you summarize for us why you think that Islam is a “false” religion?

Botros: Theologically, as I am a Christian priest, I believe that only Christianity offers the truth. Based on my faith in Christ, I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths. Moreover, one of the greatest crimes committed by Muhammad—a crime which he shall surely never be forgiven for—is that he denied the grace and mercy that Christ brought, and took humanity back to the age of the law.
But faith aside, common sense alone makes it clear that, of all the world’s major religions, Islam is most certainly false. After all, while I may not believe in, say, Buddhism, still, it obviously offers a good philosophical system and people follow it apparently for its own intrinsic worth. The same cannot be said about Islam. Of all the religions it is the only one that has to threaten its adherents with death if they try to break away; that, from its inception, in order to “buy” followers, has been dedicated to fulfilling some of the worst impulses of man—for conquest, sex, plunder, pride. History alone demonstrates all this: while Christianity was spread far and wide by Christians who altruistically gave up their lives, simply because they believed in Christ, Islam spread by force, by the edge of the sword, by fear, threats, and lurid enticements to the basest desires of man. Islam is by far the falsest religion—an assertion that is at once theologically, philosophically, and historically demonstrable.

http://frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=35073

[HOLLiS]

Something I sort of expect from a person who is part of a religion. The problem as I see it, we have somewhere between 850 million to a billion people who follow Islam. I think it is better to make more friends rather than more enemies, Sort of the bases of hearts and minds.

Going after the tangos is very reasonable. I think I can understand the need to go after Islam but I feel it is a error. 500 years ago, Christianity in Europe was not much better. Obviously Christianity changed from inside, so to me the question is; "How to get or help Islam to change."

Currently the Clerics in Turkey are reviewing the Hadiths. Stating, they want to change those errors that are used as excuses to commit horrible acts on other people (my wording). That is a good direction, IMHO.

I feel that attacking Islam will only move liberal and moderate Muslims to the more extreme camp.

Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how other view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker.

I know this is not a easy subject to approach. I am sure those who have worked with indigenous people know it is not wise to tell them how backwards and illiterate they as compared to our civilization.

Addition note, if it taste good, do not ask what it is.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how others view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker.

Hollis--

Well said, as usual.

[Plutarch]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how other view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker.

Oh, those bigoted Christians...when will they give up their beliefs and accept that all religions are equally valid?

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Plutarch

Oh, those bigoted Christians...when will they give up their beliefs and accept that all religions are equally valid?

I wonder where I said that, can you show me. I mention one specific person out of 2 billion. So show me where I equivocated and made such a all encompassing statement.

[Pete]

I find it interesting that when a Christian says his is the true religion he is treated as some kind of bigot.

When a Muslim says it, and says convert, pay the tax or die we must applaud his diversity and embrace where he's coming from. If we only understood......

Turkey? Now there is an interesting study. I wonder which way it is tilting these days?

[Plutarch]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

I wonder where I said that, can you show me. I mention one specific person out of 2 billion. So show me where I equivocated and made such a all encompassing statement.

Here you go..

"Originally Posted by HOLLiS View Post

Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how other view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker. "

Every Christian rejects all other man made religions, and likewise does not believe that they are reflective of divine truths. To believe otherwise would violate basic Christian tenets.

By claiming that this is a bigoted statement, you cast aspersions on faithful Christians everywhere.

Perhaps this was not your intent, but it is the unavoidable consequence of your statement.

[Richard]

MOO - and based on my experiences with many religius beliefs - I think I'll continue to stick with my belief in the wisdom of our founding fathers in their recognition solely of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.

Richard's $.02

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Richard

MOO - and based on my experiences with many religius beliefs - I think I'll continue to stick with my belief in the wisdom of our founding fathers in their recognition solely of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.

Richard's $.02

Richard - I'm with you.

Hollis - Father Botros isn't about apologizing for Islam. In fact, his entire approach is based on using the teachings/writings of Islam to attack the fundamental beliefs of its faithful. Given what Islam has done over the last 1400 years, it's pretty easy to see where he's coming from.

I know this is not a easy subject to approach. I am sure those who have worked with indigenous people know it is not wise to tell them how backwards and illiterate they as compared to our civilization.

Absolutely correct, at least if you ever expect to get them to do what you want. Keeping your mouth shut to improve your chances of manipulating the indig doesn't mean you need to adopt moral relativity as a personal philosophy. There is good and evil in the world; recognizing it and challenging it when/where you can will make you a better man for yourself, and a more steadfast companion for those who depend on you in adversity. If you can read the Koran, accept its demand to submit, and reconcile that to the ideals of Western philosophy (liberty, self determination, etc.), you're a lot more morally/intellectually flexible than I am.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Pete

I find it interesting that when a Christian says his is the true religion he is treated as some kind of bigot.

When a Muslim says it, and says convert, pay the tax or die we must applaud his diversity and embrace where he's coming from. If we only understood......

Turkey? Now there is an interesting study. I wonder which way it is tilting these days?

Any force or coercive conversion is just plane wrong. I don't see a different if religion X says it or religions Y says it. Same if religion X says I am going to end up in a bad place or if religion Y says the same thing. Some how faith through threats and intimidation just does not sound right to me.

On Turkey, my understanding it is a more tolerant to others view. I'll have to dig up the article.


Edited to add, from google, Turkey rewrites the Hadiths. There is a bunch of hits.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...7/turkey.islam

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Richard - I'm with you.

Hollis - Father Botros isn't about apologizing for Islam. In fact, his entire approach is based on using the teachings/writings of Islam to attack the fundamental beliefs of its faithful. Given what Islam has done over the last 1400 years, it's pretty easy to see where he's coming from.

I know a number of Coptic Christians, who are also very well versed in in those aspects. I am also familiar with much of what they have gone through in the persecutions inflected upon them in Egypt.

Personally I don't agree with his tactic on a public level. Besides going after Islam he is also attacking other religions, which should be his ally. A sermon on the pulpit maybe what the people in the pew needs to hear but how it comes across to others needs to measured if it is going to be directed to others.

My view on Islam isn't what is important, I believe, we need to avoid this kind of trap that the extremists will use against us. Why provide them with a weapon that can be used against us? I am not interested in fighting 1 billion people. Books don't kill people, people kill people.


I think I am on the same page as Richard. 1st and 2nd sentence to the Declaration of Independence

[nmap]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

I believe, we need to avoid this kind of trap that the extremists will use against us. Why provide them with a weapon that can be used against us? I am not interested in fighting 1 billion people.

So they can say what they want, but we must avoid saying anything that might offend them? We must be ever forebearant, but they can engage in provocative speech, as well as acts? And this model will, somehow, cause them to become peaceful, gentle folk who embrace cultural diversity due to our example? It does not seem to have worked to date. When will we see positive results?

Somehow, this strikes me as closely akin to surrender. Furthermore, if we abandon our various cultural values, all in the interest in avoiding offense, have we not already lost?

More pointedly - if various elements of our cultural institutions are unwilling to state unequivocally that we are right and they are wrong, why should they consider change?

I am reminded of a quote by a certain student of human nature: "Probe with a bayonet: if you meet steel, stop. If you meet mush, then push."

Are we displaying steel? Or mush?

[longrange1947]

Take great care in believing in Christianity only spreading through love and honey. I can name a goodly number of years that Christianity was forced through torture and war upon many "Savages". That has gone on even into semi modern times. Take a look at Christianity about say 700 years ago and see where it was in relationship to Islam today. Then remember that modern Islam is about that far behind modern Christianity.

And as far as pain of death, I reckon you would not like to denounce Christianity to an Inquisitor about 700 years.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by nmap

So they can say what they want, but we must avoid saying anything that might offend them? We must be ever forebearant, but they can engage in provocative speech, as well as acts? And this model will, somehow, cause them to become peaceful, gentle folk who embrace cultural diversity due to our example? It does not seem to have worked to date. When will we see positive results?

In your statement, the first "they" would be the tangos/extremists. Your "them" in Offending them, would be Muslims. I am not putting those two groups as being the same.

Extremists/tangos are fighting for the support from the Muslims. We are fighting to keep the Muslims from being drawn into their (tangos') trap and that they will support us.

Does that clarify?

[nmap]

Yes, the Protestant reformation marked a major change in Christianity. And, even after the reformation, forcible conversion was not unusual.

Some suggest that the phrase: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his" originated from a campaign in France, circa the early 1200's.

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