Is Martial Law a possibility?

[Penn]

The firing, or forced resignation of the CEO of GM by the President today, along with the AIG mess, scares the hell out of me. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that our elected democratic government would behave with such excessive intervention, that a policy like this would be executed in our country, The United States of America. If it has happened in the past and I am ignorant to the occasion; I have this to say. Times are very different, in my mind unprecedented for the opportunity they present to unravel our democratic system.

My history is weak, but I see a frighteningly similar comparison between the political climate of the thirties Europe and in America today. An economic system and model, that is stressed to the breaking point, or past its usefulness. A leader who is, or appears to have all the necessary components to be a dangerous egomaniac, and who additionally has the masses enthralled with his oratory powers; while the news media focuses on the combined internal gun control issues, multiple muders, illegal’s immigrants and foreign trouble on our boarders, a war overseas. I foresee a scenario where by with one major failure cause by a natural catastrophe, failed FDIC, or horrific clash with the drugs cartels on the civilian populace; and Martial Law is/will be declared by the President with the people’s approval, not to be remitted.

This link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...fset=12&page=2

Has an interesting article that addresses some of my concerns in a much more sensible fashion. It’s worth the read.

[nmap]

Along the same line:

Celente

The fellow's predictions sound extreme; however, his track record is quite good. Address of his company site: LINK

My opinion: matters are getting worse. The present rally in the markets and the economy is deceptive - a brief "Indian Summer" of sorts. But numerous underlying factors are getting worse, not better.

Take a hard look at municipal, county, and state tax revenues and the related budgets - as well as the demand for services. Revenues are in sharp decline, whereas demand for services is on the increase. Rhetorical question: what happens when governments cannot fund such services any more?

Also, take a very hard look at public and private pensions. The money to pay those benefits comes from investments or current revenue. Investment portfolios are down. Investment yields likewise. Current revenue, both public and private, is down. Rhetorical question: what happens when the payments stop? Potential answer: defaulted pensions go to the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation). Problem - the PBGC is underfunded, and the incipient GM bankruptcy may well overwhelm the federally backed PBGC. Therefore, the original question asserts itself: what happens when those checks quit coming?

[Paslode]

I believe it is a possibility that grows by the day and all that is needed is the the right catalyst. If they confiscate retirement accounts it is going to piss alot of folks off, but the catalyst for civil unrest could be any number of things.

I hear more and more folks talking about Martial Law, Civil Unrest and what is going to put them over the edge......it's geting spookier by the day.


From what I have overheard Firearms and their Hard Earned Savings are tops on the list.

[BlackRob82]

What the Hell ????? are any of you really serious???

[nmap]

Originally Posted by BlackRob82

What the Hell ????? are any of you really serious???

I am completely serious. I cannot speak for anyone else; however, it is my perception that they, too, are entirely serious.

Within Chef Penn's article is a brief element that discusses growth; it points out the dependency of the economy on continued growth. Presently, the domestic and global economy are not growing; instead, they are shrinking. This is why Chairman Bernanke is engaged in such strong efforts to fight deflation and return to an inflationary environment.

As an interesting thought experiment, observe the news and listen for the term "growth". It can be growth of wages, of budget, of sales, or anything else. Notice that there is a consistent assumption that growth will continue indefinitely. Now, ask yourself what happens if that pattern is disrupted.

You have no doubt heard of people walking away from their home mortgage. Have you heard that banks are now abandoning foreclosures?

Below is an excerpt from the NY Times:

City officials and housing advocates here and in cities as varied as Buffalo, Kansas City, Mo., and Jacksonville, Fla., say they are seeing an unsettling development: Banks are quietly declining to take possession of properties at the end of the foreclosure process, most often because the cost of the ordeal — from legal fees to maintenance — exceeds the diminishing value of the real estate.

The so-called bank walkaways rarely mean relief for the property owners, caught unaware months after the fact, and often mean additional financial burdens and bureaucratic headaches. Technically, they still owe on the mortgage, but as a practicality, rarely would a mortgage holder receive any more payments on the loan. The way mortgages are bundled and resold, it can be enormously time-consuming just trying to determine what company holds the loan on a property thought to be in foreclosure.



LINK

I think interesting times are upon us.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by BlackRob82

What the Hell ????? are any of you really serious???

You have been a member here a little over a week.

It is clear you need to read more and post less for a while.

Most here do not like to be blindsided by events and keep a close eye on world news.

We are not truthers or tin foil hat wearers but do like to see trends in activities.

[dennisw]

Maybe we need to start a thread akin to TR's survival thread, but related to surviving hard financial times. The gentleman in the video suggested saving as much cash as you can, but where do you keep it if banks get in trouble and the fdic doesn't guarantee your deposits?

[grog18b]

The Government will do, whatever WE allow them to do. I do not, however, understand why they suddenly believe, it it their responsibility to control the fate of corporations that either engage in shady lending practices, or make sub-standard products. I was of the opinion that business was... survival of the fittest. Make a good product, that people want, and sell it at a reasonable price, and you will reap the rewards.

When has, in the past, our tax dollars, been GIVEN to failing businesses or banks? Have the American people approved this measure? Nope. The Government put on those big britches... If we let them do it, it will continue until our Dollar is worthless.

[grog18b]

Originally Posted by dennisw

Maybe we need to start a thread akin to TR's survival thread, but related to surviving hard financial times. The gentleman in the video suggested saving as much cash as you can, but where do you keep it if banks get in trouble and the fdic doesn't guarantee your deposits?

...and what exactly will you do with all that cash, when it's not worth the paper it's printed on? Gold, Silver, other precious metals, if you are going to invest. Guns, ammo, and food, if you want to be prepared for when China calls in it's loans to us.

...or we could take the South Park (Government) approach and bury our heads deeper in the sand...

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

At this point it appears this is highly likely. I have said and remain firm in the beleif Obama is the #1 Jihadist and true enemy of this country. His plans are not to pull us out of our mess but to increase it and Bankrupt the country to allow for Muslim take over. Does this sound crazy? Yes, but it is what I believe at this point. A True Believer ..."GOD bless America and may we survive this attack on our constitution, Blitrzzz

Note to BlackRob82 be serious not a Joke. Pay attention to advice from Pete. You can PM me with any comments.

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by BlackRob82

What the Hell ????? are any of you really serious???

A person I know retired last year and has lost more than half of what he had in that little nest egg. If the governent passes Cap and Trade our utility bills in my area will go up 50% and so will everything else.

After a point as he told me 'I have nothing to lose'.

Throw up a gun topic on a forum regarding a ban, it will likey be the most active topic on the board and stay active for weeks. You'll see many response like 'Let them try', 'From My Dead Hands', 'In a Pile of Brass'. Some are blowing smoke, but many are quite serious about holding on to that last thing, that last piece of freedom as they see it.

The death by a thousand cuts is running it course, it used to once in awhile, but now they are getting anxious, applying the cuts weekly and daily and a bit deeper each time.


You do the math and it is entirely possible.

[Sigaba]

Chef Penn--

While I am also deeply concerned about contemporaneous events, I do not see many similarities between today's crises and our current political leadership and my understanding of the crises and political leadership in American and European history during the Interwar years (1919-1939). IMHO, many of the comparisons being offered do not consider sufficiently the geopolitical, political, social, ideological, technological, and, perhaps most importantly, cultural differences between then and now.*

This is not to say that things today are not bad and that they may get worse before they get better. Today, things suck spoiled Easter eggs. Those eggs are going to be sitting in a broken refrigerator on the back porch for quite a while. It is going to be egg salad sandwiches for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Desert will be Dozer's special recipe chocolate cookies.

But I don't see anarchy on the horizon. Nor do I see totalitarianism on a global or even continental scale. There is no theory of political economy that comes close to rivaling the imperfect practice democratic capitalism, even with all its shortfalls, flaws, inconsistencies, and contradictions.

What I see are the beached ships of the Achaeans. I see Agamemnon trying to convince himself that he's Franklin Roosevelt. I see Achilles preening for an Anne Liebowitz photo-shoot; Thetis, the original helicopter mom, is laying out his clothes. Where are the great tactician, the lord of the war cry, and the tamer of horses when you need them?

__________________________________________________
* If I could pick only one book to make my case, it would be Ian Kershaw, The 'Hitler Myth'. Image and Reality in the Third Reich (1987) in which Kershaw meticulously lays out the political communication methods of the Hitler dictatorship. This book, one of the best works of history I've ever read, makes two points abundantly clear. First, twenty first century digital communications can not be manipulated efficiently enough to prevent a broader understanding of the rhetorical inconsistencies of a demagogue . Second, as evidenced by the 'guns and religion' comment, the current president is not disciplined enough as a speaker to stay on messages configured for specific audiences. That is, by the time they figured out that they'd made a deal with the enemy of the world who never intended to honor the bargain with anything other than the blood of the German people themselves, Berliners were huddled in shelters as Allied bombs crashed about their ears. By the time Americans figure out that they've been promised irreconcilable policies, the recession will have ebbed just enough to make some serious changes during the 2010 midterms.

[Eagle5US]

Originally Posted by Blitzzz

At this point it appears this is highly likely. I have said and remain firm in the beleif Obama is the #1 Jihadist and true enemy of this country. His plans are not to pull us out of our mess but to increase it and Bankrupt the country to allow for Muslim take over. Does this sound crazy? Yes, but it is what I believe at this point. A True Believer ..."GOD bless America and may we survive this attack on our constitution, Blitrzzz.

AMEN.
I believe there will come a time within our own armed forces when a choice will have to be made. To defend the Constitution, or to set it afire. The rapidity of the ABSOLUTELY UNPRECEDENTED spending of the taxpayers money will burden my children, grandchildren, and perhaps even an additional generation. There will be no "standard of living" for the American people. Simply survival. When the Armed Forces of the United States are turned against it's own citizens in order to support an agenda from the Executive Branch - true Patriotism will be tested.
The question was posed "what happens when those services run out?" You need look only to Katrina -
The masses: looting, robbery, preying upon the weak, mob mentality
The few: defensive measures, personal and family protection, survival
The government: remove the ability for the few to survive against the masses, take away their guns, raid their stockpiles, remove them from their personal shelters, perpetuate fraud, waste what little dollars we have on people who refused to listen in the first place.

The Jihad is again on American soil. The word "Patriot" is now more important than ever.

Eagle

[Richard]

The question was posed "what happens when those services run out?" You need look only to Katrina - The masses: looting, robbery, preying upon the weak, mob mentality

I would be leery of equating New Orleans to the rest of America. Using this analogy, why didn't the same thing happen along the rest of the coast devastated by Katrina or when Ike devastated the Texas coast? Same event cycle - different group of participants. Much like an NTC/JRTC training cycle - different units perform differently on the same terrain under the same set of circumstances.

IMO - America is much, much more than what we saw during Katrina and that there are, in fact, more Americans of our ilk (like the rest of the Gulf Coast) than those consistently being spot-lighted by the MSM and Polecatus Washingtonium - the career victims with TV sets and a voter registration card.

My take on all this - be patient and Keep the faith.

Richard's $.02

[nmap]

Sigaba - have you read "The Collapse of Complex Societies" by Tainter? It's an interesting theory by a well-respected anthropologist. If nothing else, the language he uses is brilliant.

It occurs to me that martial law might not occur as a result of totalitarian tendencies, but rather as a response to societal breakdown. As such, the troops might not be the target of resentment, but rather a welcome sign of order.

Richard points out that post-Katrina New Orleans may not be replicated elsewhere; however, if we suppose an underlying failure of civil government, then different locations might exhibit divergent symptoms. As one example, we might ask what happens if a city cannot pay the garbage workers. If the trash stacks up, the chances for disease increase. The garbage workers might refuse to work if they were not paid. How, then, does government address the problem? The military might be used in such a manner, although whether it should be is a different matter. Likewise, the proposed civilian service corps might fulfill such functions.

Such a developing tendency toward federalization of formerly local functions might lead to a totalitarian state. However, such a state may not succeed in implementing its aspirations. I have heard it said that logistics is critical; but as civil society weakens, the essentials of logistics - the bullets and beans - become more problematic. The pronouncements of Baghdad Bob are, perhaps, suggestive of such a condition.