Shooting dogs......

[Team Sergeant]

A few thoughts concerning dogs….

Shooting dogs is not the same as shooting humans.

Most humans would not be considered “little bundles of energy”. On the contrary, most Americans are fat and lethargic hence the weapons, ammunition and training are designed to stop humans not dogs.

How many departments actually train to shoot dogs? Shooting a moving target, at full value, can be difficult, shooting a pissed off and motivated dog is even tougher. Using a pistol for this purpose, when there are other weapon choices is unintelligent.

A pistol should not be a first choice. But then again, why would anyone use a pistol as primary on a normal breech. A shotgun would be my choice with an ounce and a half of # 6 shot. It works on doors, humans and it will work on dogs without over penetration. (unless there were someone holding hostages in close proximity.)

Tasers were designed for use against humans. (see “fat and lethargic”) Again the argument for the proper weapon, ammunition and training apply. Tasers might work, until they don’t. You get one shot, good luck.

Logic loop question, given a drooling 170lb Doberman (and bad guy/guys) behind a door that must be breeched and the following choices, taser, service pistol, M-4, or a shotgun which would most pick to have in their hands at the time of breech?

Encountering a dog should not be a surprise had someone done their recon properly. A swat team that has planned a deliberate assault should not be surprised by a dog.

If you’re not an LEO or military “combat arms” feel free to keep your opinions to yourself. Everyone else lets hear it!

Team Sergeant

[Pete]

I'd say it is a "SWAT SHOT" that is not generally trained for. I say this only because it seems that most "missed" shots are during an entry or stressful situation. LEOs seem to do just fine outside one on one.

Most train for the vertical area 4-6 foot shot at what range, 6-15 feet?

Kick in a door and you have a 2 1/2 foot high target rapidly closing.

As you stated, a dog should not suprise an entry team. Recon, past knowledge, even the county dog license can be a source.

A barking dog target? I can see it now. On about 10% of the entries you have a barking target critter "running" to the door. Make it out of that foam that they use for the deer targets.

Pete

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

A few thoughts concerning dogs….

Encountering a dog should not be a surprise had someone done their recon properly. A swat team that has planned a deliberate assault should not be surprised by a dog.


Team Sergeant

If recon was done... If possible food w/ tranqulizer prior to entry, next Flash Bang unless it is a Meth Lab, Enter w/ shotgun

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by incommin

I would crack the door, toss in a willie peter, and wait for the brightly lit target to appear.....human or dog. Then the weapon of choice would be the shotgun... always the choice for close range moving targets.

I was kinda steering this toward local, state and federal LEO's..... I'm thinking (and hoping) they don't normally use WP during entries......

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

If recon was done... If possible food w/ tranqulizer prior to entry, next Flash Bang unless it is a Meth Lab, Enter w/ shotgun

Forget druggin the pooch, we're talking weapons choices.

Flashbang, great, Lets say the dogs deaf from birth and blind in the eye on the side you threw the flashbang from a car accident.... now what hero?

[APLP]

Le Mas AP handgun or rifle duty ammunition seems to provide the best solution. Impacts to rear appendages or thoracic cavity provide immediate immobilization without over penetration. Impacts to the head and neck areas cause immediate death again without over penetration. No dedicated weapon systems or designated entry personnel are required. Responding officer or any entry team member can equally address either the canine threat or armored bad guy without increasing over penetration liability to friendly personnel or urban constructions.

[casey]

I know of no Department that officially trains to shoot dogs as it would then be concidered a "non exigent circumstance", and be ten years in the policy making / training vicarious liability black hole with a final memorandum ordering all officers to utilize the civilian "dog negotiator" hired at $103,000.00 per year.

Remember the primary objective is to move and clear the property with as much speed and violence of action as necessary, hence the bad guys are the primary threat, with a cooking lab, booby-traps, ... and attack dogs way down on the list. I don't care if you have kryptonite rounds in a rifle or handgun, if your loading a specific round for non-penetration or dog killin' your not my lead in any more. Guys who go in looking for the dog are not focused on the threat that can kill your team. With the exception of NDDs trained dingos I have never even heard of a gun shootin' / knife weilding pup. We took the best, close in, man killing round available via our Department and modified its use to take out a SECONDARY threat. I'm going with TS on this one - use the shotgun, move to clear, shoot danger close as needed the canine threat while continuing to scan for primary threats to your team.

And heres a little story.

Ran into this problem years ago when a certain groups of Dominicans and Jamacians would buy trained Rottweilers (for 5 to 7 thousand) to guard their stash houses. The narcotics guys were scared to death when making their buys for warrants. Since we were operating in a very metro environment we changed up to have the first guy in use 00 buck. Problem was you had to clear, & advance and still pay attention for these "lions" who made very little sound. So the first in usually became the meat and moved to target. We hit one of their bigger houses for our narcotics team - I was lead in when I saw the Rottie heading in from a straight thru kitchen area. The dog was on me in just about three leaps and even though I saw him (or her) it never made a GD sound. Hit it about 18 inches away and took the entire left side of its head off - I mean teeth, eye , ear et al. The dog spun around and sat there attempting to lick its face with what was left of its tongue. Later our Humane Services took the dog to a good vet hospital who put it down. It was then that I learned about these amazing animals and how they were bred by the Romans etc.

Several teams that year hit these same sold attack dogs with 00 buck - all were stopped or killed with one shot. The only people who took a hit were those narc guys/gals who did warrants without us. All were using handguns or short carbines - some with "special ammo". just my .02

[Five-O]

TS,
Most LE entry teams carry a mixed bag of weapons and are configured for the job at hand taking into consideration the time of day, the bad guys history and the building/room to be taken down and a few other factors. Also most teams carry less lethal options as well including bean bag rds, pepper ball rds and the Taser option. For a routine warrant service we use the MP5 and our duty pistol S&W Tactical (40cal)...we also put one shot gun(REM 870) towards the front of the stack...usually in direct support of the ram officer behind the shield officer. In the case of a dog the very last weapon I want is a pistol or mp5. Stopping power just is not there and shooting a moving target that is trying to bite you in the balls is at best difficult. If intell indiacates a dog, having the shield maybe key in buying a second or two to get a good well aimed 00 buck shell into the dog.. this will settle the matter instantly. I have been in several dog shootings and these tactics have proven reliable and effective. This is not to say its best as there are about a half dozen ways to skin this cat. Just my experience and opinion. The non-Swat officer on a ..say domestic call.. does not have the benefit of weapons choices. At best he'll have a pistol and maybe a Taser....he will generally have a trip to the ER in his future.

[504PIR]

I was at a several SWAT training courses in the past 4 months or so. Dogs guarding Meth labs was a BIG topic.

Evidently some Police Chiefs/ Sheriffs take a dim view of "delibrate dog killing". Sounded like more a politcal thing, as the dogs have to be put down after the arrests anyway.

The general conclusion was a shotgun loaded with buckshot was the best remedy for an attack dog.

My hat is off to the LEOs that have to deal them.

[Crue]

I have yet to try them but I have just got some multiple projectile rounds for my 203/m4. Word from the guys in our adjacent Bn is that they just about cut a dog in half at ten feet. I know there is still is the problem of the transition but if you fire the 203(for a righty) with your left hand and keep your right hand on the pistol grip of the m4...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Excellent post TS.

APLP, the problem with any ammo is you have to hit the target in the KZ. AS Pete said, small and moving fast in a high stress situation. If you don't train the shoot that type of target, you probably won't hit it.

Now look at the diagram of canine anatomy. You need to be behind or under for the optimum shot. Not going to happen in this scenario.

I was thinking about the shotgun as well, I agree it would be a much better choice if one is going to shoot.

I don't think drugs are the answer - they take too long to act. Even 5 seconds in this scenario is an eternity.

If you're a little lucky, the dog will be barking at the door when the charge goes off. But you can't rely on luck. I've seen the bomb blanket thing used - it worked very well the one time I saw it. Problem is now you have a member of the team tied up and probably laying on the floor for the duration.

[hoepoe]

Indeed an excellent topic.

I too would go the shotgun route, however i would load "Brenneke" or more modern rifled "Foster" slugs. Not certain of all the specs, i recall however that these are solid slugs and IMO would be far more effective at penetration and creating a would channel than buckshot on a muscular canine. From close range may even stop the pooch regardeless of KZ. Regarding over penetration, that's a tough one, but as far as i know a non-issue with shotguns due to lower muzzle velocity regardless of round. Anyone care to qulify or disqualify this as i'm not 100% certain?

As for the KZ of the canine, spot on NDD, difficult one, especially with more muscular breeds like Rotties, Pit Bulls etc.

I recall a story, urban legend if you will from about 13 years back regarding a Pit Bull hit multiple times with a .38 and just kept going, didn't even slow down.

Bottom line, dogs aren't people, they are tougher physically and have a better psyche for the fight by instinct. They need to be stopped physically to stop, IOW, disabled not frightened.

Regarding flashbangs, i recently read that this would be dangerous in a meth lab due to explosive or unstable chemicals.

Hoepoe

[TFM]

This one is all in the hands of the breach man lest when flowing into different rooms an unexpected hound is encountered. I think the shotgun would be the best weapon for all the reasons you mentioned TS (penetration & accuracy). Only problem is if you can't chamber that round in time your goose is cooked. Your buddies will probably have to beat the thing to death after that. My SAW would make short work of a dog, but the potential for collateral damage...

[hoepoe]

Ok Brenneke has come a long way since i last used a shotgun, this is what i found n their site with regards to a suitable slug:

Tactical Home Defense 12 / 2¾”

Weight: 1 oz.
Barrel: all types
Range: up to 35 yards
Use: Home defense / law enforcement, deer sized game

* Original BRENNEKE Slug “Bronze” with newly developed unique patented B.E.T.-wad
* flat trajectory
* good accuracy
* allows quick, accurate follow up shots if needed
* good knock down power
* controlled penetration / low risk of dangerous exiting
* designed for urban use
* proven for law enforcement
* most comfotable for recoil sensitive shooters

Hoepoe

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Crue

I have yet to try them but I have just got some multiple projectile rounds for my 203/m4. Word from the guys in our adjacent Bn is that they just about cut a dog in half at ten feet. I know there is still is the problem of the transition but if you fire the 203(for a righty) with your left hand and keep your right hand on the pistol grip of the m4...

The M576 Cartridge, 40mm, Multiple Projectile, contains 27 00 Buckshot pellets which deploy in a wide pattern at a relatively slow velocity.

It should work fine up to 10 yards or so, beyond that, I would prefer a 12 gauge shotgun, better yet with a Vang Comp.

I would go with a buck load and avoid the slugs due to the possibility of missing and overpenetration.

The MP5 would be fine with the LeMas, if you could put rounds on him quickly. You hit even a leg, it is gone and he is going to be dragging the remainder of it towards the target.

TR