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Penn 03-22-2020 13:17

The best victory is to win without actually fighting
 
"The best victory is to win without actually fighting. Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting" Sun Tzu

As the world confronts the coronavirus that originate in China, indisputable facts have emerged. If the release is intentional and the strategy is to win without fighting, then there exist a point which would expose intent. By what other means would it be possible to inflect such chaos on a system, where an enemy could harness political discord, MSM, and the total collapse of the financial system, while avoiding the fray, other than the plan release of a pathogen when you were ready to do so, completely overwhelming your enemy?

1. Ground zero location of Coronavirus is Wuhan City, China
2. Several miles from the Market where the coronavirus appeared is One of China’s level IV Military Grade Bio centers.
3. The Chinese leadership knew the COVID-19 coronavirus exist November 2019.
4. Thousands of Chinese and Business/Tourist are infected with the virus.
5. The infected are the instrument of distribution - disseminating the virus worldwide
6. The Virus release is Conveniently at the beginning of the flu season.
7. Jan 7 China announces they isolate the pathogen of the Virus
8. Jan 9-11, China announces the first deaths in Wuhan (People are escape leave Hubei province, 900K by train before the lock down
9. Jan 13, Japan and Thailand Announce they have the Virus and begin screening
10. Jan 17, The USA begins screening.
11. Jan 20, Millions travel for the Lunar New Year
12. Jan 23, China Quarantines Wuhan City and Hubei Province (60 Million ppl Locked down)
13. Jan 24, Wuhan Hospitals system failure/ China commences build 1000 beds by Feb 1.
14. Jan 25, Hong Kong Cancels Lunar New Year stops travel to Mainland China
15. Jan 26, New Cases in USA, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand South Korea
16. Jan 30. WHO Declares World Emergency Pandemic the Virus has spread to all 23 Province in China – India and the Philippines confirm 1st cases
17. Jan 31, Trump bans entrance into the USA by foreign nationals
18. Feb 1-10, deaths increasing – President Xi Jinping does PR
Feb 7, Dr. Li Wenilang who exposed to the world China complicity - coronavirus dies in Prison Hospital
19. Feb 11, WHO announces the virus will be called COVID-19
From this point forward the virus is Global and expanding.

Plausible Deniability Campaign

FEB 27, 2020 China’s state-run China Global Television Network (CGTN) broadcast a segment in which one of China’s most prominent epidemiologists, Dr. Zhong Nanshan, speaking about COVID-19, opined that “the infection was first spotted in China, but the virus may not have originated in China.
https://theprint.in/opinion/china-bl...origin/374557/


Dow

Oct 26th, 2019 Dow open at 24,426 and begins a steady climb to 29,313 Jan 17, 2020
Feb 12, 2020 Dow 29,406 btw Feb 12th and the 19th, market fluctuates 200/300points
On Friday Feb 21, the Market begins its decline, by March 20th, Dow is 19,173. Down 10,000+ points and the slide will continue.


Look back

1988, 1993, 2001 Attacks on the WTC - Goal the Collapse American financial system.
The attacks assumed America’s financial collapse, but after the 1993 attack, Goldman Sachs had built a complete duplicate center in Jersey City, anticipating the need. The market opened September 17th, 2001. One week after the attack. In that sense, the attack failed to meet its goal.

September 21th 2011: Before running for president, Trump tweets “China is neither an ally or a friend — they want to beat us and own our country”.

May 2, 2016: While campaigning for the Republican Party’s presidential nomination, Trump says “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing. It’s the greatest theft in the history of the world.” The statement is one of many that Trump makes on the campaign trail about China’s trade practices
November 12, 2019 Trump states the first part of a deal with China could be finalized "soon" but emphasizes that escalations against China would ensue if not. "If we don't make a deal, we're going to substantially raise those tariffs," the president says.

Timelines
https://markets.businessinsider.com/...-1028474486#12 (

https://www.china-briefing.com/news/...ar-a-timeline/
(best to scroll down to the beginning of the timeline.)

May 10th, 2019. Trade negations with china with China end with no deal Trump imposes 25% tariff on all Goods from China.

Day 487: November 1, 2019 – China wins WTO case, able to sanction US$3.6 billion worth US imports

The World Trade Organization (WTO) said Friday that China can impose compensatory sanctions on US imports worth US$3.6 billion for the US failure to abide by anti-dumping rules on Chinese products. The announcement centers on a WTO case that originated nearly six years ago, long before the trade war.

According to news sources, the US is disappointed in the decision and a US official responded by saying that the arbitration panel “overstates the amount of the impact on China” and that the WTO’s approach had “no foundation in economic analysis.”

Day 526: December 13, 2019 – US, China agree to ‘phase one deal’ just before next tariff hike

WarriorDiplomat 03-22-2020 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 656861)
"The best victory is to win without actually fighting. Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting" Sun Tzu

As the world confronts the coronavirus that originate in China, indisputable facts have emerged.

1. Ground zero location of Coronavirus is Wuhan City, China
2. Several miles from the Market where the coronavirus appeared is One of China’s level IV Military Grade Bio centers.
3. The Chinese leadership knew the COVID-19 coronavirus exist November 2019.
4. Thousands of Chinese and Business/Tourist are infected with the virus.
5. The infected are the instrument of distribution - disseminating the virus worldwide
6. The Virus release is Conveniently at the beginning of the flu season.
7. Jan 7 China announces they isolate the pathogen of the Virus
8. Jan 9-11, China announces the first deaths in Wuhan (People are escape leave Hubei province, 900K by train before the lock down
9. Jan 13, Japan and Thailand Announce they have the Virus and begin screening
10. Jan 17, The USA begins screening.
11. Jan 20, Millions travel for the Lunar New Year
12. Jan 23, China Quarantines Wuhan City and Hubei Province (60 Million ppl Locked down)
13. Jan 24, Wuhan Hospitals system failure/ China commences build 1000 beds by Feb 1.
14. Jan 25, Hong Kong Cancels Lunar New Year stops travel to Mainland China
15. Jan 26, New Cases in USA, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand South Korea
16. Jan 30. WHO Declares World Emergency Pandemic the Virus has spread to all 23 Province in China – India and the Philippines confirm 1st cases
17. Jan 31, Trump bans entrance into the USA by foreign nationals
18. Feb 1-10, deaths increasing – President Xi Jinping does PR
Feb 7, Dr. Li Wenilang who exposed to the world China complicity - coronavirus dies in Prison Hospital
19. Feb 11, WHO announces the virus will be called COVID-19
From this point forward the virus is Global and expanding.

Plausible Deniability Campaign

FEB 27, 2020 China’s state-run China Global Television Network (CGTN) broadcast a segment in which one of China’s most prominent epidemiologists, Dr. Zhong Nanshan, speaking about COVID-19, opined that “the infection was first spotted in China, but the virus may not have originated in China.
https://theprint.in/opinion/china-bl...origin/374557/


Dow

Oct 26th, 2019 Dow open at 24,426 and begins a steady climb to 29,313 Jan 17, 2020
Feb 12, 2020 Dow 29,406 btw Feb 12th and the 19th, market fluctuates 200/300points
On Friday Feb 21, the Market begins its decline, by March 20th, Dow is 19,173. Down 10,000+ points and the slide will continue.


Look back

1988, 1993, 2001 Attacks on the WTC - Goal the Collapse American financial system.
The attacks assumed America’s financial collapse, but after the 1993 attack, Goldman Sachs had built a complete duplicate center in Jersey City, anticipating the need. The market opened September 17th, 2001. One week after the attack. In that sense, the attack failed to meet its goal.

September 21th 2011: Before running for president, Trump tweets “China is neither an ally or a friend — they want to beat us and own our country”.

May 2, 2016: While campaigning for the Republican Party’s presidential nomination, Trump says “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing. It’s the greatest theft in the history of the world.” The statement is one of many that Trump makes on the campaign trail about China’s trade practices
November 12, 2019 Trump states the first part of a deal with China could be finalized "soon" but emphasizes that escalations against China would ensue if not. "If we don't make a deal, we're going to substantially raise those tariffs," the president says.

Timelines
https://markets.businessinsider.com/...-1028474486#12 (

https://www.china-briefing.com/news/...ar-a-timeline/
(best to scroll down to the beginning of the timeline.)

May 10th, 2019. Trade negations with china with China end with no deal Trump imposes 25% tariff on all Goods from China.

Day 487: November 1, 2019 – China wins WTO case, able to sanction US$3.6 billion worth US imports

The World Trade Organization (WTO) said Friday that China can impose compensatory sanctions on US imports worth US$3.6 billion for the US failure to abide by anti-dumping rules on Chinese products. The announcement centers on a WTO case that originated nearly six years ago, long before the trade war.

According to news sources, the US is disappointed in the decision and a US official responded by saying that the arbitration panel “overstates the amount of the impact on China” and that the WTO’s approach had “no foundation in economic analysis.”

Day 526: December 13, 2019 – US, China agree to ‘phase one deal’ just before next tariff hike

Interesting as stated before their is a timeline of events that suggests something else....almost right out of the book

Penn 03-22-2020 13:41

I edit the intro to argue the fact more succinctly.

An example of intent is item 13. Build out a 1000 bed hospital in 6 days. From an organizational dynamics stand point the scope of that project and marshaling the material and personnel is months in the making, lining up all your ducks.

They were prepared to execute, they knew the possible outcomes and the need, and the PR value of seemingly caring for their countrymen the in eyes of the world. Add it feeds into the plausible deniability feature of their strategy.

tonyz 03-22-2020 14:27

Given the shear depth, breadth and magnitude of damage caused by a “bug”...you can bet every evil fuck in the world (be they state actor or non-state actor terrorist) is paying VERY close attention as to the potential for a future encore performance.

WarriorDiplomat 03-22-2020 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyz (Post 656866)
Given the shear depth, breadth and magnitude of damage caused by a “bug”...you can bet every evil fuck in the world (be they state actor or non-state actor terrorist) is paying VERY close attention as to the potential for a future encore performance.

Yep countries like Russia aren't about to let anyone know if their healthcare system is compromised and overwhelmed or whether or not they have had to quarantine anything not to mention that government is not about to let media and medical community run down its response if any and spread the fear and panic the west has done.....we though NBC was a threat for a long time and then turned to CT 9/11 and ignored it slowly at first now the CBRN(new NBC) guys are probably saying yep as we have studied and suspected is happening or was going to.

Again as you and Penn note the real danger is not containment of the disease nor its spread it is the media spreading fear and panic where we are on the brink of martial law being needed. Other nations such as Russia and China, N. Korea etc.....are taking notice and studying the impact it is having and the inability for the west to handle such an event. Oh well what do I know I was just a knuckle dragger 18B at my peak though a keen interest in the shadowy world of espionage, UW and the sort. If I had been in a different climate I might have been just as happy in the 3 letter agencies AFTER feeling my oats in SF but the ruffian I was made that impossible pre service days

Paslode 03-22-2020 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorDiplomat (Post 656872)
it is the media spreading fear and panic where we are on the brink of martial law being needed.

The news ended a bit ago with a short presentation with the John Hopkins Map (I believe) giving the growth stats of the Corona Virus since the news earlier in the day. I think it went from 311k to 331k world wide and they had to mention that the US had the 3rd highest death toll without mentioning what the percentage is compared to the overall population. No mention of how many have recovered from Corona, also no mention of the Flu numbers, nor a comparison of the Flu and Corona numbers.

Concerns over PPE, Test Kits, ICU Beds and Ventilators.

Doom porn start to finish.


Not to divert the topic, but how the hell do you have test kits readily available for a virus you do not know exists?

WarriorDiplomat 03-22-2020 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paslode (Post 656877)
The news ended a bit ago with a short presentation with the John Hopkins Map (I believe) giving the growth stats of the Corona Virus since the news earlier in the day. I think it went from 311k to 331k world wide and they had to mention that the US had the 3rd highest death toll without mentioning what the percentage is compared to the overall population. No mention of how many have recovered from Corona, also no mention of the Flu numbers, nor a comparison of the Flu and Corona numbers.

Concerns over PPE, Test Kits, ICU Beds and Ventilators.

Doom porn start to finish.


Not to divert the topic, but how the hell do you have test kits readily available for a virus you do not know exists?

Exactly the golden questions that must be asked of the 8 alleged treatments the Chinese have and the testing kits being fielded so quickly.....the Democrats has started to move on this opportunity I see when Pelosi announced that the Democrats would be proposing a relief package not we the government not bipartisan which it started out as....lets also remember Chuck Schumer also has a proposal on behalf of the Democrats

Penn 03-24-2020 12:46

Breeching security Mar a Lago Timeline
 
In April, May, December 2019, and January 31, 2020. Four separate attempts were made by Chinese nationals to breech security at Mar a Lago. The last 1/31/2020, also coincides with President Trump prevents Chinese entrance to USA.


April, 02 2019
• A Chinese woman has been charged with making a false statement to the U.S. Secret Service after entering President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida with a thumb drive that contained “malicious software,” court documents revealed Tuesday.
• A criminal complaint says the woman, Yujing Zhang, was on the property on Saturday, at around 12:15 p.m., while Trump was playing golf at the Trump International course nearby.
• Zhang later claimed to the Secret Service that she was at the resort to attend a “United Nations Friendship Event” between China and the United States, the complaint said. That event did not exist, according to the complaint.

May 05, 2019
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Friday that the recent arrest of Yujing Zhang, the woman who allegedly breached security at President Donald Trump's private Florida club while carrying Chinese passports and a flash drive containing malware, is an example of the threat Beijing poses to the US.
Pompeo declined to provide additional details related to that claim during the interview on "CBS This Morning," but did say, "I think this tells the American people the threat that China poses, the efforts they're making inside the United States, not only against government officials but more broadly."


December19, 2019 Daily wire reported on December 19, “A second Chinese national, again a woman, was arrested trying to trespass on President April, 02 2019
• A Chinese woman has been charged with making a false statement to the U.S. Secret Service after entering President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida with a thumb drive that contained “malicious software,” court documents revealed Tuesday.
• A criminal complaint says the woman, Yujing Zhang, was on the property on Saturday, at around 12:15 p.m., while Trump was playing golf at the Trump International course nearby.
• Zhang later claimed to the Secret Service that she was at the resort to attend a “United Nations Friendship Event” between China and the United States, the complaint said. That event did not exist, according to the complaint.


AP reported, “Jing Lu, 56, was confronted by the private club’s security officers and told to leave, but she returned to take photos, Palm Beach police spokesman Michael Ogrodnick said in an email. Palm Beach officers were called and arrested her. It was determined she had an expired visa, Ogrodnick said.”pose

Jan 31, 2020
On Friday morning, two women who reportedly breached security checkpoints at Mar-a-Lago were taken into custody after shots were fired. WPVF reported, “Two female suspects now in custody after breaching two barricades near the winter White House Mar a Lago on Palm Beach/pursued by FHP — shots fired into the vehicle.” BREAKING: two female suspects

Penn 03-24-2020 17:12

WD
Quote:

Interesting as stated before, their is a timeline of events that suggests something else....almost right out of the book
Can you be more specific.

Points of interest are the attempts to penetrate the security of Mar a Lago prerelease of virus.

Pompano remarks.

PR campaign by China with a worked/media ready narrative.
PR Campaign by the MSM to shutter as the only option, with the additional narrative of mismanagement. Morphing, as the administration gains control, to an expanded narrative that putting the country back to work by 4/12 is shortsighted again exampling mismanagement.

How does crushing the economy benefit the Dem's, other then a possible retake of government, if they inherit a crushed economy, are they looking at FDR redo? And, is it possible all these events, including the behavior of Dem leadership, possibly orchestrated, by a conjoined agenda with China vis v The MSM, WHO +China?

tonyz 03-24-2020 19:55

China Virus is potentially a Cloward Piven opportunity on steroids.

WarriorDiplomat 03-24-2020 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657083)
WD

Can you be more specific.

Points of interest are the attempts to penetrate the security of Mar a Lago prerelease of virus.

Pompano remarks.

PR campaign by China with a worked/media ready narrative.
PR Campaign by the MSM to shutter as the only option, with the additional narrative of mismanagement. Morphing, as the administration gains control, to an expanded narrative that putting the country back to work by 4/12 is shortsighted again exampling mismanagement.

How does crushing the economy benefit the Dem's, other then a possible retake of government, if they inherit a crushed economy, are they looking at FDR redo? And, is it possible all these events, including the behavior of Dem leadership, possibly orchestrated, by a conjoined agenda with China vis v The MSM, WHO +China?

I mean left of phase 1 UW OPB type stuff....this phase you would prepare the targeted country with PSYOP's and other methods to assess the support of the operation and/or energize a resistance movements will....PSYOP would begin with radio stations, newspapers, information campaigns etc...then assess the effects and adjust prior to putting [people on the ground for an infiltration....without getting to far into it.....the Chinese in this phase are studying the effects the virus has caused to the infrastructure of western nations specifically the U.S. obviously for them the specific goal is the focal point which seems to be economic.

The Chinese have had their way with the U.S. economy since Clinton started trade deals with them though at the time dealing with them was IIRC forbidden due to their human rights violations etc.....at the time the Chinese were of no threat to western society today they are THE threat and they did this under the noses of Democrats as they were helped along. Trump is the first POTUS to put American interest first and put his foot down with China for over 25 years of course the Chinese want to see him gone in 2020 they also aren't stupid and see another 4 yrs being probable....the operations to damage Trump climaxing with this is of no real surprise....in fact the only real surprise is that China is getting much more bang for their buck out of this.

As far as the slimy politicians called Democrats they seem to be half towards pure socialism....there goal is always dependence on the state going back to the end of slavery, FDR New Deal which started the dependence on government when Social Security began then forward to LBJ's full on welfare reform which wrecked the family when men were replaced as fathers for welfare, womens rights that has seem 60.000.000 + state sponsored murders/abortions since Roe v Wade etc.....the Democrats are moving towards total state dependence as opposed to American independence and resiliency, they have sponsored campaign of fear and panic after campaign of fear and panic for generations the last 2 subjects they have exploited have been global warming and free healthcare(more state dependence pandering).....the Democrats are not letting this opportunity to try and stop Trump for 2020 go it is too good and they are true to their slimy tasteless character are making moves to take advantage as we write this.....economic collapse does not worry the Dems in fact I believe they are so desperate to stop Trump they are willing to see our economy tank just to win 2020....this would be a two fold gift the old Dems do not really want but the younger generation believe in....and that is near total state dependence and the socialism they dream of

Penn 03-24-2020 21:46

Got it. This not the CP Columbia model. They have place our system of government in checkmate. To prevent financial collapse Trump must accept the outrageous socioeconomic conditions which alter society as we know it. If he and the senate do not accept those terms, there no deal and the economy is halted/implodes, and Trump possibly loses the 2020 election, dependent upon the response of the American citizen.

All the dots connect.

Penn 04-02-2020 15:18

The USS Theodore Roosevelt taken out without a shot. The whole of the western pacific opens to Chinese navy.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/uss-theod...rs-coronavirus

Flagg 04-02-2020 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 656864)
I edit the intro to argue the fact more succinctly.

An example of intent is item 13. Build out a 1000 bed hospital in 6 days. From an organizational dynamics stand point the scope of that project and marshaling the material and personnel is months in the making, lining up all your ducks.

They were prepared to execute, they knew the possible outcomes and the need, and the PR value of seemingly caring for their countrymen the in eyes of the world. Add it feeds into the plausible deniability feature of their strategy.

I would push back on this one a bit, for the following reasons:

1) In the hardware business, it’s very common to go from paper design to hardware prototype in a single day in China. The speed is strikingly remarkable in an economy optimised for physical goods manufacturing.

2) China has built prefab skyscrapers in remarkably short periods of times(like days, rather than years).

3) After the Battle of the Coral Sea, and in preparation of the decisive Battle of Midway based on Magic intercepts, the USS Yorktown was turned around from a half sunk wreck into a combat capable platform in 3 days.

It wasn’t pretty, but it was just good enough, just in time.

Are we giving too much weight towards premeditation here and not enough weight towards The Will To Win?

The former is less uncomfortable to ponder than the latter isn’t it?

Flagg 04-02-2020 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657567)
The USS Theodore Roosevelt taken out without a shot. The whole of the western pacific opens to Chinese navy.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/uss-theod...rs-coronavirus

I wrote this one for US Army TRADOC Mad Scientist Initiative:

https://madsciblog.tradoc.army.mil/2...onment-part-1/

There is risk of China pulling off a hybrid Falklands/Grenada scenario.

How much? Probably very little at the moment, but could rise quickly.

It’s worth mentioning CCP/PLA’s primary concern will likely be regime continuity.

If domestic impact is far more serious than disclosed, and the CCP/PLA finds itself under increasing pressure, than an obvious option is activating nationalism and externalising the problem.

For the same reasons the Argentine Junta invaded the Falklands, but with the same outcome as US action in Grenada.

But with fewer rounds expended.

——-

Energy prices are something to pay very close attention to.

Low energy prices reinforces a Russia/Iranian nexus, with Venezuela too broke and distracted internally to participate as an effective partner.

Same with other energy producers, particularly high cost ones, ripe for destabilisation by Russia/Iran.

If the current energy price holds, Russia may have a year at most, before it will get fiscally very ugly. And that includes burning its sovereign wealth fund.

I could easily imagine Russia and Iran giving their respective UW forces a hunting license to give energy producers as much of a haircut as possible.

A mate working in Mozambique told me Wagner Group got smacked pretty hard recently there.

And I doubt it’s a coincidence that Mozambique has some truly enormous energy projects underway.

WarriorDiplomat 04-02-2020 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flagg (Post 657576)
I would push back on this one a bit, for the following reasons:

1) In the hardware business, it’s very common to go from paper design to hardware prototype in a single day in China. The speed is strikingly remarkable in an economy optimised for physical goods manufacturing.

2) China has built prefab skyscrapers in remarkably short periods of times(like days, rather than years).

3) After the Battle of the Coral Sea, and in preparation of the decisive Battle of Midway based on Magic intercepts, the USS Yorktown was turned around from a half sunk wreck into a combat capable platform in 3 days.

It wasn’t pretty, but it was just good enough, just in time.

Are we giving too much weight towards premeditation here and not enough weight towards The Will To Win?

The former is less uncomfortable to ponder than the latter isn’t it?

I understand what you are saying but you are giving the Chinese too much credit for effort and not enough for pre planning or flat out deceit

The sheer magnitude of the ability to build a thousand bed hospital with equipment and a staff in 6 days is impossible....unless paint, mortar etc.....dry and cure at a different rate in China not to mention that in order for it to run the grid has to be beefed up to handle the extra draw....the will to win as in the Russians with guns to their backs in WW2 or the will to win as in such a spirited and determined effort they overcome insurmountable odds....the Chinese are tough people but you cannot convince me they created a functioning hospital in 6 days even with slave labor working 24/7....they have an eastern philosophy that is very different to western but Sun Tzu is more along the lines of the truth

Old Dog New Trick 04-02-2020 20:28

It’s just my belief but, for a country (China) that even in times of great economic prosperity builds complete cities sans people, the utilities and the infrastructure to support life and inhabitants because it gives workers a job (stay busy) and don’t revolt. I find it increasingly difficult to believe that the temporary “hospitals” built in Wuhan were nothing more than covered mortuaries where sick people were either brought in or walked in and left in a zippered bag on their way to incinerators which we’ve been told were running at capacity 24/7 at 500/day times seven.

Simple math says at that rate over say 60 days that’s 210,000 out of a population of 11 million. Hardly noticeable and the Chinese communist party will never allow any westerners access to those facilities (which I’ve been told are already being dismantled for “safety reasons”) or the families who lost all their aging and sick parents and grandparents; drain on society anyway not very productive. Some survived, obviously many never got sick. I doubt they knew then or know now what treatments worked or didn’t work. To them it was all just an active laboratory, try this, try that, what did we use the last time?

Was it odd that a vacant multi story hotel being used to isolate people collapsed in the midst of all this? No, that’s just a distraction while they move other pieces on their chessboard.

You want to know why Chinese people, more so than other Asian people, smile at you while talking? It’s because they are lying!

The Ming dynasty (I think I got that one right) didn’t build the Great Wall to keep Mongolian aggressors out, but to keep the peasants happily employed while living a lavish life style back in Beijing with fireworks, theatre and great food.

Nothing has changed much.

Their aircraft carrier is a modern day piece of shit, as is their Air Force and Navy. But hey they have 1.5 billion people and maybe 20% of them are willing to take up arms to defend their way of life, unless the other 80% say don’t, and that’s not likely to happen because 1% of the true believers of the communist party will slaughter entire villages until compliance is regained.

Just an old 1st Group guy reminiscing about that other N. Korean Peninsula problem.

Penn 04-02-2020 20:40

Flagg
Quote:

Are we giving too much weight towards premeditation here and not enough weight towards The Will To Win?

Latter/Former, Former/Latter?
Why would one weight one over the other in execution? When it would be reasonable to conclude that premeditation would encompass the will to win.

The Chinese employ a multifaceted approach to their long term goals. nothing is outside their interest. eg (but you know this) from the UN, telecom, 5G, academia, business partnerships (google affording AI population/social controls) I suspect that any chip made in china has built into it, a backdoor for their exploration into whatever system the chip is placed.

btw, the mad scientist post was brilliant.

twistedsquid 04-02-2020 22:38

Chinese Navy isn't Jack Shit. Our subs would end them in a NY minute.

Flagg 04-02-2020 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657594)
Flagg
Latter/Former, Former/Latter?
Why would one weight one over the other in execution? When it would be reasonable to conclude that premeditation would encompass the will to win.

The Chinese employ a multifaceted approach to their long term goals. nothing is outside their interest. eg (but you know this) from the UN, telecom, 5G, academia, business partnerships (google affording AI population/social controls) I suspect that any chip made in china has built into it, a backdoor for their exploration into whatever system the chip is placed.

btw, the mad scientist post was brilliant.

Cheers for the last bit!

I see your point that it could be both premeditation as well as “the will to win” concurrently rather than on a proportional continuum.

I agree with much in your post and this thread.

The CCP/PLA are The Main Enemy in my opinion.

Where I might differ a bit is in assessment.

China’s Three Warfares doctrine and strategy is unrestricted political warfare.

My concerns consist of:

whether or not western society has the will to win,

what China’s real strengths and vulnerabilities are,

and how we can reduce a much bigger/badder counterfeit Chinese Nazi threat

Flagg 04-03-2020 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedsquid (Post 657600)
Chinese Navy isn't Jack Shit. Our subs would end them in a NY minute.

Largely true, I reckon.

Launching and recovering fighter planes in low volume and optimal conditions is one thing.

Launching and recovering in terrible weather, combat conditions, and high volume is entirely another.

That takes decades.

What doesn’t take decades anymore is disruptive capability to negate trillion dollar sunk costs(aircraft carrier fleet global capability).

Maybe China’s DF-21D is a lousy Chinese bottle rocket.

Maybe it’s a carrier killer.

Maybe the US can easily defeat it.

But the days of having to spend trillions in order to defeat trillions in legacy capability are over.

Penn 04-03-2020 08:49

Flagg
Quote:

But the days of having to spend trillions in order to defeat trillions in legacy capability are over.
How much is that virus in the bottle?

Penn 04-03-2020 15:33

Research Gate - Zero Hedge?
 
The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus
Botao Xiao1,2* and Lei Xiao3
1 Joint International Research Laboratory of Synthetic Biology and Medicine, School of Biology and Biological Engineering, South China University of Technology, Guangzhou 510006, China
2 School of Physics, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Wuhan 430074, China
3 Tian You Hospital, Wuhan University of Science and Technology, Wuhan 430064, China
Corresponding author: xiaob@scut.edu.cn
Tel / Fax: 86-20-3938-0631

The 2019-nCoV coronavirus has caused an epidemic of 28,060 laboratory-confirmed infections in human including 564 deaths in China by February 6, 2020. Two descriptions of the virus published on Nature this week indicated that the genome sequences from patients were 96% or 89% identical to the Bat CoV ZC45 coronavirus originally found in Rhinolophus affinis 1,2. It was critical to study where the pathogen came from and how it passed onto human.

An article published on The Lancet reported that 41 people in Wuhan were found to have the acute respiratory syndrome and 27 of them had contact with Huanan Seafood Market 3. The 2019-nCoV was found in 33 out of 585 samples collected in the market after the outbreak. The market was suspected to be the origin of the epidemic, and was shut down according to the rule of quarantine the source during an epidemic.

The bats carrying CoV ZC45 were originally found in Yunnan or Zhejiang province, both of which were more than 900 kilometers away from the seafood market. Bats were normally found to live in caves and trees. But the seafood market is in a densely-populated district of Wuhan, a metropolitan of ~15 million people. The probability was very low for the bats to fly to the market. According to municipal reports and the testimonies of 31 residents and 28 visitors, the bat was never a food source in the city, and no bat was traded in the market. There was possible natural recombination or intermediate host of the coronavirus, yet little proof has been reported.

Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps).

WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4- 6.

In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province
4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8.

He described that he was once attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick.

8.Surgery was performed on the caged animals and the tissue samples were collected for DNA and RNA extraction and sequencing 4, 5.

The tissue samples and contaminated trashes were source of pathogens. They were only ~280 meters from the seafood market. The WHCDC was also adjacent to the Union Hospital (Figure 1, bottom) where the first group of doctors were infected during this epidemic. It is plausible that the virus leaked around and some of them contaminated the initial patients in this epidemic, though solid proofs are needed in future study.

The second laboratory was ~12 kilometers from the seafood market and belonged to Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences 1, 9, 10. This laboratory reported that the Chinese horseshoe bats were natural reservoirs for the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) which caused the 2002-3 pandemic 9.

The principle investigator participated in a project which generated a chimeric virus using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system, and reported the potential for human emergence

10. A direct speculation was that SARS-CoV or its derivative might leak from the laboratory.

In summary, somebody was entangled with the evolution of 2019-nCoV coronavirus. In addition to origins of natural recombination and intermediate host, the killer coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan. Safety level may need to be reinforced in high risk biohazardous laboratories. Regulations may be taken to relocate these laboratories far away from city center and other densely populated places.

Acknowledgements
This work is supported by the National Natural Science Foundation of China (11772133, 11372116).
Declaration of interests
All authors declare no competing interests.
References
1. Zhou P, Yang X-L, Wang X-G, et al. A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin. Nature 2020. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2012-7.
2. Wu F, Zhao S, Yu B, et al. A new coronavirus associated with human respiratory disease in China. Nature 2020. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2008-3.
3. Huang C, Wang Y, Li X, et al. Clinical features of patients infected with 2019 novel coronavirus in Wuhan, China. The Lancet 2019. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140- 6736(20)30183-5.
4. Guo WP, Lin XD, Wang W, et al. Phylogeny and origins of hantaviruses harbored by bats, insectivores, and rodents. PLoS pathogens 2013; 9(2): e1003159.
5. Lu M, Tian JH, Yu B, Guo WP, Holmes EC, Zhang YZ. Extensive diversity of rickettsiales bacteria in ticks from Wuhan, China. Ticks and tick-borne diseases 2017; 8(4): 574-80.
6. Shi M, Lin XD, Chen X, et al. The evolutionary history of vertebrate RNA viruses. Nature 2018; 556(7700): 197-202.
7. Tao P. Expert in Wuhan collected ten thousands animals: capture bats in mountain at night. Changjiang Times 2017.
8. Li QX, Zhanyao. Playing with elephant dung, fishing for sea bottom mud: the work that will change China's future. thepaper 2019.
9. Ge XY, Li JL, Yang XL, et al. Isolation and characterization of a bat SARS-like coronavirus that uses the ACE2 receptor. Nature 2013; 503(7477): 535-8.
10. Menachery VD, Yount BL, Jr., Debbink K, et al. A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence. Nature medicine 2015; 21(12): 1508-13.
The original pre-print is below (link):
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EDIT TO ADD: Whole Post was Copy and Paste

PedOncoDoc 04-03-2020 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657630)
Article reference

Good find. I wonder if it's authors will be imprisoned by the Chinese government for this publication.

Penn 04-03-2020 18:47

PedOncoDoc.
Most certain they will never be heard of again.

Flagg
Quote:

China’s Three Warfares doctrine and strategy is unrestricted political warfare.

My concerns consist of:

whether or not western society has the will to win,

what China’s real strengths and vulnerabilities are,

and how we can reduce a much bigger/badder counterfeit Chinese Nazi threat
The Three warfare doctrine: the totality of commitment to cause.
Competition: the will to win
Confrontation and containment
My thinking is: You need a research assistant.

Flagg 04-03-2020 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657618)
Flagg


How much is that virus in the bottle?

That’s the trillion dollar question! :)

My gut tells me this isn’t a result of human bioweapon engineering.

Are the Chinese in a position to comprehensively counter US power projection?

Not at the global level, but increasingly at their near-shore and regional level.

Would it make sense for China to invest in asymmetric capabilities?

Absolutely!

Why invest a trillion and decades to counter US carrier battle fleets?

They can be disrupted and denied far more cheaply(proportionally), if still not cheap.

I think for me to be convinced that this is an integrated Chinese plan with a bio weapons component I’d need to see what I am unable to see.

Which is a really comprehensive and accurate understanding of Chinese systemic strengths and vulnerabilities.

There’s just so much “noise”(complexity?) and conflicting information, including the stuff that is simply/clearly accurate.

I don’t know much about bioweapons, but as I understand it, there’s a LOT of unpredictability with applying them.

They are weapons, but ones that are very hard to aim, and harder to predict effects.

Penn 04-03-2020 19:12

Interesting read
https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/ch...s-perspective/

Bioweapons-Natick labs 1970. On rtn from RVN, stationed at Natick Labs, a NV agent was test on a high school football field. My job: recording wind direction and speed.
With that in mind, it is so hard to imagine a similar test conducted by equally clueless clogs following directions/orders?

The more research about China that expresses its intention of hegemony, the more apt I am to consider it's willfulness in the release of the virus.

Old Dog New Trick 04-03-2020 19:22

I’m not going to post the article it’s easy to find but rightfully so the Captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt was relieved of command yesterday. Democrats are livid but they have no basis for their opinion.

The Captain violated principal rule number ONE never go public with a military weakness that should have remained classified.

The military was aware of the problem and working the problem and the ship was already docked in Guam. As I said the Captain was rightfully relieved of command and the Democrats can pound sand.

Flagg 04-03-2020 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657645)
PedOncoDoc.
Most certain they will never be heard of again.

Flagg


The Three warfare doctrine: the totality of commitment to cause.
Competition: the will to win
Confrontation and containment
My thinking is: You need a research assistant.

I’m a big fan of the Reagan administration’s foreign policy.

Particularly the actions around crippling Soviet export earnings and imploding the Warsaw Pact & Soviet Union thru non kinetic support of the indigenous Solidarity movement in Poland.

But how do we counter China?

Low energy prices that help us, actually help China more.

And they have a greater willingness to intimidate or slaughter their way to retention of power as witnessed with the Uyghur peoples.

Perhaps we turn Hong Kong into a proxy for West Berlin.

But both the Uyghur and Hong Kong problems for China have evaporated in terms of global mindshare.

Flagg 04-03-2020 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657648)
Interesting read
https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/ch...s-perspective/

Bioweapons-Natick labs 1970. On rtn from RVN, stationed at Natick Labs, a NV agent was test on a high school football field. My job: recording wind direction and speed.
With that in mind, it is so hard to imagine a similar test conducted by equally clueless clogs following directions/orders?

The more research about China that expresses its intention of hegemony, the more apt I am to consider it's willfulness in the release of the virus.

That’s a solid article from a pretty good resource.

I can definitely see China conducting tests with proxy agents, much as the US did way back in the day.

I recall reading about a large-scale one on the US East Coast in the 50’s/60’s using a live proxy agent?

So I don’t think it is outside the realm of possibility that China would do the same.

Not at all.

But is this it?

US SMEs seem to be consistent in their believe that the DNA of this virus makes it highly unlikely it is a bio weapon.

Penn 04-04-2020 08:16

The Chinese research paper would beg to differ.

Quote:

Why invest a trillion and decades to counter US carrier battle fleets?

They can be disrupted and denied far more cheaply(proportionally), if still not cheap.

I think for me to be convinced that this is an integrated Chinese plan with a bio weapons component I’d need to see what I am unable to see.
Your prejudice in accepting the most simplistic bang for the buck has made you blind.
Without firing a shot, they have execute a brilliant plan to place China as the #1 economic power. Regardless of what industry is moved back, they now possess the tech, manufacturing, social power to compete and dominate.

The USA/EU/West have lost leaders, ships, and a roaring economy.

Please example for me China's losses. Or one leader with the virus, could they have a vaccine?

Penn 04-04-2020 08:45

Also, considering this statement which acknowledges the unflinching ability to commit to a policy genocide, why would the release of a virus be beyond your consideration in China meeting their goals?

Quote:

And they have a greater willingness to intimidate or slaughter their way to retention of power as witnessed with the Uyghur peoples.
This is policy execution via MSM, UN, Academia, etc., etc,.
Quote:

But both the Uyghur and Hong Kong problems for China have evaporated in terms of global mindshare.

Flagg 04-05-2020 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penn (Post 657671)
The Chinese research paper would beg to differ.

Some of the US’s best and brightest working very hard to solve these problems would agree with me(although more of an ‘I agree with them’):

https://steveblank.com/2019/01/08/th...orizons-model/

In terms of tech acceleration disrupting legacy capability, in other words: persistent capability becomes perishable


Your prejudice in accepting the most simplistic bang for the buck has made you blind.
Without firing a shot, they have execute a brilliant plan to place China as the #1 economic power. Regardless of what industry is moved back, they now possess the tech, manufacturing, social power to compete and dominate.

The USA/EU/West have lost leaders, ships, and a roaring economy.

Please example for me China's losses. Or one leader with the virus, could they have a vaccine?

I’ll turn the temp down a bit to reduce risk of animosity and not post anything in absolutes.

Because we are talking about theories rather than concrete physical law.

If your theory is correct, and it is just a theory, there’s a lot of moving parts to manage for successful execution. A lot. Orchestral sized even.

A counter theory could include the possibility of a mediocre western response, led by mediocre leadership, presiding over a mediocre economy.

I know it’s not binary. But what’s more likely? Complexity or mediocrity?

Make no mistake, I am all for a US led western coalition continuing to drive the planet earth bus.

And I firmly believe China is adversary #1.

But I’m not convinced there is a preponderance of evidence of Chinese premeditated action.(That’s not a challenge to you to have to convince me.)

It’s clear they are leveraging this sh!tshow as best they possibly can.

If it were premeditated, surely we would have seen signalling/indicators from the Executive Branch by now?

I am certainly in the blame China camp.

Another War on the Rocks articles presses an interesting angle on reparations:

https://warontherocks.com/2020/03/ch...the-trillions/

While it’s a great article, I don’t see it at practical.

In my opinion, China will never pay. And if they were somehow held accountable and compelled to, it would probably lead to war.

In short, I suspect we are not far apart on the destination of where we see this inevitably going.

My guess is we only differ on the “journey” to get there in terms of means/methods and casus belli.

Penn 04-05-2020 13:13

China has 1.37B people 730 million men 667 million women.
Round off a 20% + male population base.
Sociological disparity in M/F = Social unrest
https://www.livepopulation.com/country/china.html
As stated here The CCP main concern is regime survival

Arguing the Three Horizons model in initiatives.
Some Horizon 3 disruptions do take long periods of development
China has one overriding goal, the one China Policy territorial integrity – Beginning 1949-ongoning

September 21th 2011: Before running for president, Trump tweets “China is neither an ally or a friend — they want to beat us and own our country”.
May 2, 2016: While campaigning for the Republican Party’s presidential nomination, Trump says “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing. It’s the greatest theft in the history of the world.” The statement is one of many that Trump makes on the campaign trail about China’s trade practices

12/2016 President-elect Trump Accept ROC (Taiwan) call - Breaching established protocol - One China Policy

July 6th, 2018 Confrontation firmly established
Trade war begins
https://thediplomat.com/2018/07/us-c...de-war-starts/

Horizon 3 disruptions can be rapidly implemented by repurposing existing Horizon 1 technologies into new business/mission models
• Speed of deployment of a disruptive/asymmetric product is a force multiplier
• The attackers have the advantage, as the incumbents are burdened with legacy
• COVID-19 is circulating

Method of distribution
Event Horizon 4/2/2020
http://rocs.hu-berlin.de/corona/

“Park’s essay outlined several functions of war. First, war helps resolve international disputes over matters such as territorial boundaries and religious and other ideologies. No matter what one might think of war, historically it has resolved disputes between nations, with the winner of the war winning the dispute.”

“The Social Function of War: Observations and Notes,” in a leading sociology journal (Park, 1941).Park, R. E. (1941). The social function of war: Observations and notes. American Journal of Sociology, 46, 551–570.

Flagg 04-05-2020 18:16

I wonder if this retired Brigadier and his book will be brought into the limelight more:

https://t.co/iDOdaxYWHH?amp=1

Penn 04-05-2020 18:39

No longer alone.


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