INCENTIVE PAY FOR ALL
 

Does anyone know or has anyone heard about a proposed incentive pay that is coming down the pipe in 2010? I heard it will be implemented at the end of 2010.

I have been hearing rumors of this since the better half got to group.... but so far nada. Last I heard the powers that be were fighting over which budget was going to get hit with the price tag. They may have resolved that, but I haven't heard anything official yet.

However, when/if it is kicking in... I'll take it :)

You know what's crazy. I was speaking to a Subarine Warfare Qualified Naval officer (O-4) yesterday and he told me that he gets an incentive pay of $30K a year - on top of base pay - for remaining "in contract" within the Submarine Warfare community. He told me that this also applied for Naval Air as well as Naval Special Warfare types. He let me look at his LES and he also receives a sort of "proficiency pay" that totals about $750 per month (I think our SF NCOs get that much, or am I wrong on that). Anyway, it made me wonder, why it took so long to get the guys demo pay and why it is so hard to enact "across the board" incentive pay when this kind of money is thrown around in DOD. Some may think that CSRB is extravagant at nearly $150K, but, when SMs are receiving $30K per year for staying in a particular "community" (their lingo for "branch"), CSRB seems like nothing to be surprised at.

Pay
 

I have only heard this, but it has to do with the number of personnel they employ in those units, compared to the number we have. That does not explain the fact of why QP's don't deserve more.

my .02 cents

I will contact Miss Wolf out at SOCOM. She is the CW3 that told us in 2007 that we would be getitng demo pay in the near future. She was right on that, so if anyone knows, then she probably will.

I'm just curious - for what incentive might this new pay be awarded? :confused:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Sort of like a pro pay. Mostly I think it is an incentive not to get out to contract.

Wasn't the $$ that kept me in - have things really changed that much? :confused:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I suppose that depends on the QP. Some are in it for their brothers and because they love what they do regardless of pay. Some are in it for their brothers and because they love what they do, but see the six figures being offered by contracting companies and have four or five kids to put through college... well even on an E8 salary that can be tough. NOTE: I am not judging anyone. Just saying that when a man has a wife and kids to take care of finances do play a part in the equation. Some get frustrated with the constraints of the Army and want more of a free hand. There are as many reasons for getting out or staying in as their are QPs as I suspect there has always been.

There were no good alternatives paying $500-$1000 per day back then, and a force begging to keep people in either.

I suspect that this will come to a head when the 18Xs they have built their hopes on exit at better than 80%. IMHO, many of the guys we are selecting are not the ones we really want. More is not always better.

Consider also that we are on OEF XIII already, and an SF plus-up coming, with no end in sight.

TR

For some SFG's this is not the SF of 10 years ago where teams deployed for 3-weeks to somewhere in the Carribean teaching the indig army every other day and came home with a fist full of cash; high OPTEMPO pay, $150/day per diem, etc... if you have BTDT, you probably know what I am talking about.

Today, on some teams, you had better be a barrel-chested, steely-eyed, lead-slinging and knuckle-draggin' freedom fighter. You are going to go to one of the biggest shitholes on the planet. There will be no hotels to sleep in, no beaches to lay out on and T&A means something completely different (toes n ankles). The guys you are replacing said "it's dangerious out there sarge," and quit conducting ops 2 months prior to your arrival. The enemy is going to be so far up your ass that the only white space you have is inside your OPCEN. You are going to kit up every day and go out there and beat them off your wire. You are going to pressure, pursue and punish them. In some cases you will kill so many enemy that the senior leadership is going to ask you to stop. The only response is, "when they stop shooting at me, I will stop shooting at them." Today, teams are doing this over and over and over without a letting up. They come home for a few months and go straight into training only to deploy again. My average is 60-days home a year and I know of guys who are on there 9th combat deployment. As one team sergeant said, "you guys are some of the hardest men I have ever known. I only have to do this once, but you will have to keep coming here over and over."

Incentives come and go for various reasons. Right now it is about how do we keep these guys. Yes, we could fight this war with "nothing but M16A1's and LBE's" attitude, but what are the reprecutions of that?

18X's pretty much come around or they don't stay around. Most of the guys who reenlist are just as good as any other guy. Should see a better batch coming through the pipeline now that there is a change in leadership/direction. One of the first SFAS's under his wing had something like 26 soldiers selected.

That question is part of the answer...
 

The question asking why is incentive pay necessary. Our senior command doesn't get it either, that is, why do we need incentives..."In my day no one ETS'd." That's right SGM, and in your day guys got money out the ass and maybe shot at once in their career. Burying your friends has a way of taking the sizzle out of a bonus.
So does a Command team who fails to make their unit a place you want to stay. There are simply too many damn good deals out there to stay somewhere that sucks, and when the NG units have a better Command environment than AD, guess where lotsa fellas go? I'd love to see a study on how many 18X are now NG!!!
For the record the Army usually stifles already federally approved funds for these pays, for instance, the approved Warrant Officer ascessions bonus is 60k, and Seals get it, but DA cut SF down to 20k.

I'm going to try and articulate this as diplomatically as possible because I have already had an experience with a thin-skinned senior NCO on this forum and I don't want to slight anyone that I share space with in this community. Plus, that is not my intention anyway.

Others have arrived at this same juncture on this very same thread already, so what I'm writing here is not earth shattering.

In the last three years I have received serious offers on the "outside" (civilian) world not having anything to do with security companies that deploy folks overseas. I have been offered yearly pay on the high side of $80K/year on two of them, and the last one was at six figures per year. I did not even spend ten seconds considering them. I enjoy my job too much.

HOWEVER, I do have a family.

Three years ago, as fate would have it, I missed death by merely 34 linear feet but lost four comrades in the same attack. I, along with three other QPs, and an FBI HRT agent along for the ride, picked up what was left of them while being in the middle of a 7 1/2 hour ordeal where we were denied MEDEVAC because the LZ was too hot (I don't blame them; it was). The next day, it was Valentine's Day back in CONUS; my wife did not hear from me for four days. But, other wives would never see their husbands alive again. By the way, when those men died, six children were made fatherless.

Chances are that I, like many others have done before me, will miss many one-time events in my children's lives because of my commitment to the teams. I have already sacrificed one marriage as a direct result of my personal lack of balance - at the time - between my desire to be the "first guy to volunteer" and to actually be present at home, even when I'm in CONUS (I've since fixed that deficiency).

In the time I was deployed, I saw four of our men die before me, and received the broken remains of an additional three in subsequent three months (I identified their bodies at the morgue each time and did all the paperwork so no one else in the unit had to experience that unnecessarily). Two other men died when I left country to see my dying father, who died shortly after I returned to CONUS - from cancer. To this day, there are feelings in the family that I "just was not there when he needed me". As, I was later told, he constantly asked for me. When I received the Red Cross message at the FOB, I refused to leave because we were about to execute the largest operation in-country in years with other SOF from the coalition and I did not want to leave when the unit needed me the most. I almost had to beg the Battalion Commander to let me stay a bit longer. I did stay. At the time, because of what I had experienced there, I felt that I could not improve my father's condition by seeing him, but that maybe I could help the operation go well and, perhaps, help save lives. To this day, I am split on the appropriateness of my decision in light of so many other variables.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT THING: I represent little, in terms of sacrifice, when compared to the rest of the QPs in the force that have completed two or three more rotations than I have. Men that left the gate just 48 hours after watching their brothers blown-up and/or shot and bleed out. I wish I was a multi-billionaire so that I could give them all some "incentive" pay.

I might have the ability to exit the inherently dangerous and unpredictable world of SOF because of my educational background and/or people I know outside. But, so many QPs have spent their younger years earning "masters" and "doctorates" in Special Operations and are locked into this world of ours. They may not even want an option out because they desire to remain loyal to the brotherhood - it defines who they are.

Call me crazy, but I think that deserves something other than a pat on the back. How about giving these guys an opportunity to get the best education for their children? Or, the ability to buy into better neighborhoods to live in. If pilots flying at 30,000 feet seem to deserve "incentive" for their tremendous feats of flying expertise, I would imagine that the men "in the arena" deserve it too.

I don't think I would ever have the temerity to question a QPs loyalty to the brotherhood because they seek a better quality of life for their family in light of their sacrifices. My opinion is that such an assumption is completely inappropriate in light of what WE KNOW they sacrifice EVERY DAY.

I don't wish anyone presently serving NOT receive any and all money they can for their service. I hope that these bonuses are spread to any and all who may earn them. However, in "my" day they were filling a hell of a lot of body bags on a very regular basis. There were NO bonuses, or very small bonuses, for combat MOS's such as 11B /11C/12B etc. That is not why people volunteered, enlisted, re-enlisted, or stayed. It was much more than simply that.

It has to be much more than simply that...

PRO Pay is supposed to go away. And you will be payed for the time you have in SF ie. 650 a month for your first three years in SF and then something like 1000 after that. You have to serve in an 18Series slot. It is supposed to go to all even 180As and 18As. Miss. Wolf put out in 2007 that we would be getting demo pay and it came down the pipe. If she put this out then it is most likely going to happen. And why not incentive pay? SF is deployed a hell of a lot more today than in the 80s and 90s. Seals get incentive pay and they are maxed out. Why wouldn't SF soldiers deserve it? I know it's not always about the pay, but if they are going to bring it up and pay it, then WHY NOT? We may be able to keep a lot more guys who are getting out and working contract work. In my company, we lost several guys to contract companies and a good medic on my team. I think the guys deserve it, and because Sr Officers don't get it, well they had their chance to attend SFAS just like the rest of us. I say pay it.

Nobody's trying to question anybody's loyalty - just trying to understand a much different environment from the one faced during a different time in Group - when we fought to stay OCONUS where the job was for years at a time - among guys who had fought in WW2, Korea, the DomRep, LA, Africa, and throughout SEA (I knew guys with 5 - 9 straight years in SEA alone), etc - w/o the bonuses, > TDY, > incentive pay, etc. It took its toll, too, and one of the worst things about being back stateside was the funeral details for friends you had served with and had remained in-country when you DEROS'd.

Like ZD said - if the money's there, that's fine, but if not - will it change things?

Things change - personally, I hope some things don't.

Richard's $.02

Richard, I agree. If you are in it for the money you are in the wrong profession and I don't want you on my team. Though I don't believe anyone on this board is in it for the money. What I do feel is that most guys in group feel vastly under-appreciated. They have the feeling that no one in the chain of command cares about their sacrifices. I do enjoy the reality checks that you and the older generation provide for us. Last time I checked no group was doing year long tours, and back to back tours don't mean 2-3 years straight. I had the "opportunity" to chase down several knuckle heads through jungle-like terrain. It was the most puckering 5 hours of my life. I was literally on top of these fellas before I could engage them. I couldn't imagine doing it for a year straight.

The big difference between conflicts of past and the present are the availability of options. Private sector jobs are abundant on the outside for whoever wants them. The higher skill level you bring to the hiring table the higher your potential wages. I once bumped into a blackwater contractor making six figures. The guy was a former marine admin clerk whose only job was to ride on a helicopter as QRF. On top of the OCONUS contracts you have everyone and their brother building training sites, hiring former QP's for CONUS work.

I was offered the "big money" carrot many moons ago just prior to re-enlistment. I had my own personal reasons for not taking the bait and getting out. The next guy might have just as many reasons why he hates the military/the army/group/etc. and ETS.

I have more than a dozen friends who have gotten out for jobs on the outside. One had over 15 years in. They were all great guys and I never faulted them for doing so. But, almost to the man they regretted the decision (the only guy who doesn't, left with a huge chip on his shoulder). In the private sector (minus a few higher end jobs) no one has your back and it's every man for himself. That's the basic summary from 14 out of 15 former SF.

Incentive pay is cool and all if it ever does come down, but what will it change? You will still be going on the same deployments, you will still have the same chain of command you hate, and the same guys who want to get out will still get out. It's kind of like a civil lawsuit, "Your honor, I know I will never get my (fill in blank here) back, but 2 million dollars will make me feel better about it."

Now I will hide behind a rock in anticipation of stuff being thrown at me. :D

Thanks for the input. I think you stated your case very well and the above sentence would appear to me to be the crux of the problem. Let 'em all know how much we out here appreciate their efforts and sacrifices.

Appreciatively,

Richard

Guys, this is not a Johnson measuring contest. And clearly, no one joins SF just for the money.

I came into the Force after Vietnam, but was trained by the men who served there. They were pros, and most were very good at what they did. When they came in, we had an Army largely composed of draftees, and compensation was low. SF was caught in this. I suspect that many SF guys did one tour in Vietnam and got out. Others served multiple tours over a war that lasted from 1961-1975. SF was there for more than a decade. But by the time Vietnam was winding down, the Army was in the midst of a very bad period in our history, and I did serve during that period.

Flash forward over several wars of shorter duration and consider that we are on the 13th rotation to Afghanistan since October 2001, and almost that many to Iraq.

In Afghanistan, that is 13 seven month tours, split primarily between 3rd and 7th, with NG augmentation.

Those troops are home for at most, five months out of the year, pretty much every year that they are in Group.

Some now have been gone to the combat zones for more than 48 months since this started, and no end is in sight.

Some spouses can handle that kind of deployment schedule. Many cannot. One thing that can help is a little extra money to help make sure that the family is living well during the deployments.

There are a lot of opportunities on the outside, paying significantly more than the Army offers. Spouses know this as well.

Guys also sometimes feel that the leadership does not value them or is not looking out for their best interest. As Bas noted, burying friends is bad. Burying friends who died needlessly is worse by far. I think that we lose a lot of people right here, and money may, or may not make a difference.

Last, I think we attract a number of people, largely under the 18X program, who want to see if they can become SF and serve in combat with us. Once that is accomplished, they only have a few years of an initial entry contract to serve, and after a couple of tours in the Box, the rest are going to pretty much look the same. Nothing left to prove, why stay? Some of these guys may be tempted by the money, or the cameraderie, or the opportunity to try out for other Spec Ops units, to try and measure up to their standards. Others have different plans, and will leave regardless. That seems to me to be much like the mindset of the guy who does not want to die saying, "Well, I could have done that if I wanted to."

Whatever the motivations, people are leaving, and incentives have to be found to retain the good SF soldiers, or the future of the Force will be dim. Smart people are trying to figure out how to recruit the candidates that we are looking for, get them trained to standards, man the Force adequately, and retain sufficient numbers to keep the units operationally sound. The latter is the reason for the bonuses and extra pays.

TR

As expected, TR sums it all up quite correctly. I agree.

The thing that gets me is that we are not living under the conditions endured by General Washington's troops circa 1776 when Soldiers went two or three months without pay and many still stayed on while others went back home. The money just was not there to be handed out (no "stimulus package", I guess).

I have worked with personnel from other SOF within our services. I find that there IS money out there to provide for their SOF warriors in many different ways - be that availability of required individual equipment, operational platforms, or incentive pay - yet, it seems like the process to get that to our own guys is the slowest in the services.

Maybe, as a QP myself, I am very biased towards our own, but I happen to think we deserve it as much as the next SOF service member. Maybe some of us here are of a different opinion, but I doubt that.

In any case, I think we still do pretty good presently. But, it can be better.

IMO a smart spouse will want her man to stay in SF rather than going with contractors. Yeah they dangle a lot of money and claim shorter periods away from home (which is usually BS), but they also lack the support for both soldier and family. The ones that offer $1,000.00 a day are demanding proportionate risks to earn that money. I have never encouraged him to take a contracting job. I just don't think it is worth the risk, and I don't think he would be happy doing it.

I don't like having him gone 75% of the time. I really DO like having him around, but after he has been home for a while he gets antsy and usually starts tearing holes in the walls of the house (remodeling ... not anger management). About that time, I will ask if he doesn't have some school to go to or something. Most other wives I know are similar. Then again most other wives I know have been doing this for 5+ years and are on the four or fifth or sixth deployment. I know there are women out there who have threatened to and/or left guys for staying in group, but by and large those marriages had other issues happening. SF doesn't tear marriages apart, but it will shine a glaring spotlight on problems in the relationship.

TR is right, the money does help when he is gone. Mostly it helps pay for things he would take care of if he were home like the yard, home repairs, cleaning out the gutters, blah blah blah. It is also nice that we can put some money into a gun fund for him every deployment so he has a toy when he gets home. However, even with the incentive pay, no one is gonna get rich doing this job, but it will help offset his "'cool guy" gear that the Army won't pop for and that I don't have the heart to deny him.

My $.02. First a little background. I spent 10 yrs in the USN & 3 yrs in the USNR. While in the USNR I contracted for BW. Now I am NG. So, I know a little about how other Services pay & about exploring options.

My EOD buds in the USN get monthly $375 SDAP (Master EOD Tech), $150 or $275 Jump (most @ the $275 rate), $150 Demo, & $215 Dive. Some also get FLPP, and their SRBs are in the $60K max range. SEALs are on par with this. The Navy definitely does a better job of compensating their personnel monetarily.

I loved contracting. I only worked 5 months during a year and made more money than I ever did in the USN. I saw going SF in the NG as a way to advance my career in contracting. The initial plan was to do both similtaneously, live well & prosper. Thing is, once I was back on AD I realized how much I missed the military. I have been Guard bumming ever since & am exploring my options for returning to AD or going AGR because my 20 is within reach.

I love SF & I believe wholeheartedly in our life of service, but once the retirement option is on the table, I am going to need some heavy persuation to continue sacraficing my time away from home. I am still on my first wife, & after all the BS she has tolerated over the years I want her to keep sticking around. I would also like to be around to keep my boy in line once he gets to that point in life where he needs firm supervision. We give & give to our nation. Our nation should give back to us.

X/S

I agree with this statement that we deserve it just as much as any other SOF service member. I obviously don't do it for the money because I could have made a lot more on the outside. I love my job and I am coming up on my 7th trip to Iraq and hey, a little extra money in the bank for my wife and kid wouldn't hurt a thing.

I tell ya what, if someone on here or in our community has thin skin, then they should go to another forum, or go to another community.

This is a long-running thread in the history of the American military. ;)

Two anecdotes from our country’s founding capture the independent thinking of the American soldier and the greatness of the Army officer who led them. During the Revolution, a man in civilian clothes rode past a redoubt being repaired. The commander was shouting orders but not helping.

When the rider asked why, the supervisor of the work detail retorted, “Sir, I am a corporal!”

The stranger apologized, dismounted, and helped repair the redoubt. When he was done, he turned toward the supervisor and said, “Mr. Corporal, next time you have a job like this and not enough men to do it, go to your Commander-in-Chief and I will come and help you again.”

Too late, the corporal recognized George Washington.

The power of example in leadership.

On another occasion, Washington was making his rounds and came across a Private John Brantley drinking some stolen wine. Brantley invited Washington to have a drink with him.

The general declined, saying, “My boy, you have no time for drinking wine.”

Brantley responded, “Damn your proud soul – you’re above drinking with soldiers.”

Washington turned back, dismounted and said, “Come, I will drink with you.”

The jug was passed around, and as the general re-mounted, Brantley said, “Now, I’ll be damned if I don’t spend the last drop of my heart’s blood for you.”

A lesson in the independence of the American soldier and his loyalty, when treated with respect.

http://elitestv.com/pub/2009/05/defe...cement-address

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I did. Somebody sold me a bill o' goods!!:mad:

:D:D:D

I joined because I thought I was going to get rich. Clearly hasn't happened yet!

Rich! Somebody's gettin' rich? The recruiters told me being in SF was a great way to meet movie stars and get laid - all I had to do was learn to swagger around town in Class B's wearing my beret, a Rolex, a demo knife, and a star saphire ring. The only one who got rich was the guy who sold me the Rolex and ring. Sounds as if them effin' recruiters are still lyin'. Some things never change. :rolleyes: :D :p

Richard's $.02 :munchin

A huge reason I decided to contract 18X was that I saw what my degree was going to be down the road; 10 hour days sitting in front of a monitor, designing things I would never see. The more I learn about SF the more determined I am. The way I view SF is that it is the lifestyle closest to what I consider to be ideal; true brotherhood, meaningful and interesting work, and a hard life. If you don't have a way to push yourself beyond what you are, you won't grow and learn, and then what's the point?

The money is nice, but I don't think money is going to get me through selection. The reason I'm going in is to see just how far I can push myself, pure and simple. It also happens to coincide with other equally strong feelings (I'm an Eagle Scout; I love my country). I also believe it will be an excellent job, with variety and opportunities to continue to become stronger, and ways to test myself.

Just thought maybe a little personal input and "why" would be appreciated from an 18X. If not, I'll start looking for cover...

Well put brother.

This is very well-said. To me, it is the primary reason I joined Special Forces lo these many years ago. It is the same for most I know/knew. When/if these types of deployments were not forthcoming, we were disappointed and disillusioned. It pleases me to see that the bulk of today's SF troopers feel the same. To be honest, I'd have paid someone to do what SF does in my day. No shit!

First, let me say that I have been in the Army for just shy of 18 years and I have never gotten a re-enlistment bonus. I was already indef when I came into SF so I never even got one of those bonuses. That said, as a near my twenty I am faced with a decision. As much as I would like to stay in, I do have a family to think about. My kids a growing up without Daddy, largely, and that kills me. I can take mitigate that a llot by taking a SWCS tour as long as I don't end up as SUT cadre. But I also have to think about my second career. I am not one of those guys who is going to take one of those contracting jobs that will keep me from my family as much as my active duty career did. I am going to find a regular job and come home to the wife and kids each night. As I get older, I will only be marketable for so long and if I wait too long I may not be marketable at all. On top of all that, I will need a degree. I am doing online courses but the OPTEMPO makes it difficult, even when we are not deployed to Iraq. When I hit 22 years (my planned retirement right now) I may need to get out just so I can focus on going to school full time to get my degree.

SFC W

I would have too,my just being in SF was enough for me...... :lifter God,how I miss it.. :( But maybe old farts like me realize just what we had once and now in the twilight of my years see these young tigers and wish I were back with them...;)

Big Teddy :munchin

x2 brother. Excellent post.

For the previous generations who post, "...being SF was enough", I feel you. Being a TS in the guard, I am very well accquainted with working for free or wages less than my AD counterparts. It's not right, but it's the way it is. When it comes down to brass tacks, I wouldn't give it up for the world (just ask my frustrated wife). Everything has a cost. I must contract IOT pay for being a guard SF guy. Ironic, yes. But again, that's just the way it is. I, for one, hope to God that the higher incentive pay comes through. Maybe I'll be able to afford a couple weeks at home after my next guard stint.

On the 18X note, I've inherited a few 18X's in the past couple years. These are quality, experienced guys. Most of them get out because of a shitty TS or SGM, or worse, group command climate. A small percentage get out to ride out their IRR time because OPTEMPO was too high. I only say this in hopes that leadership out there is reading it. OPTEMPO is hard to manage, but if you treat your guys like they are expendable, they will expend themselves straight to the guard. (A little off topic, but it needed to be said)

You Can still CSRB, just not for the Max amount, in case you didn't know.

Steel on target as usual Sir.

Crip

Haven't been on here in a while. Just wanted to clarify my comments from the first post. I do believe our guys deserve all the bennies they can get their hands on. I also, wouldn't complain about a little bump in the paycheck. I know our families (for the Non-single guys) deserve it also. With that extra pay you could move your familiy to a better area with better schools and less crime. That way they feel more secure when your gone.

What I was trying to point out was that money won't solve everything. After a while the extra money will become "the norm". Then guys will continue to complain and moan about the same things they did before. The same guys who thought about getting out before will still get out. Second, some will get a sense of entitlement. This will affect their attitude and discipline. I have friends who do recieve this extra pay. They told me this is what you can expect. In the end, if you retain anyone, they are just staying around for the money. Not my type of guy.

Try this experiment in your team room. Pull each guy to the side and tell them they have the opportunity to deploy on an operation (use your imagination). This operation would include great personal risk but would result in the K/C of a high profile HVT, but would require them to lose some sort of pay (again use your imagination). See how many guys still raise their hands.

I accidentally posted in the incorrect thread. My introduction post that was previously here can be found here

Apologies for the distraction.

What does this have to do with Incentive Pay?

Apologies.

I had this thread opened to copy a quote from it, to use while composing an introduction post. I had multiple windows opened, and erroneously posted this in the wrong browser window. Not a good start and highly embarrassing. Will correct now.