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Roguish Lawyer 07-30-2004 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30
I am sure you have seen the term ST (Spike Team) as well as RT. In '68 the ST was what you call a "heavy Team". Most teams were Spike Teams and downsized to RT for particular missions. We carried several LAWs (one per member except for the 1-1 on my team). The reference to belt-fed weapons may explain the reference to "Crazy" though Papy Webb always carried an M-60.

On TM Cutlass I begged for and got a then experimental Stoner in LMG configuration.

To start with, because of different security considerations, the Daniel Boone Teams operated as RTs and the Prarie Fire Teams operated as STs.

Thanks for explaining that, QRQ. I always wondered what the heck you were talking about!

How many men on an ST typically?

Air.177 07-30-2004 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Ugh. I can't ever remember to ban you from answering these questions! Yes, junior has the correct answer. I am withholding your prize because you weren't supposed to be eligible.
:eek: :boohoo

As long as I am right, That will be enough for me.:D

What, Just because I have undergone 20 Years of "indoctrination" and Education, I am being excluded?

Alright, I can deal with that.

Roguish Lawyer 07-30-2004 16:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Air.177
As long as I am right, That will be enough for me.:D

What, Just because I have undergine 20 Years of "indoctrination" and Education, I am being excluded?

Alright, I can deal with that.

LOL, there was no prize. :D :lifter

QRQ 30 07-30-2004 17:30

Different Strokes
 
One thing I got from "The Secret Commandos" by Plaster is that he didn't stereotype the teams. Each team was an extension of its 1-0. There was no TOE or PLL for RTs. We carried what WE felt was best for US. If NY and CA were similar it probably had to do more with the ckloseness of the USSF team members. We used to sit around discussing different weapon loads. I had so much sucess with hand grenades that I once, and only once, carried a satchel full. After an hour I was looking for someone to unload them on. For the most part our teams carried LAWs, claymores with time pencils, WP and M-79. Almost all USSF carried a second weapon. A sawed off M-79 was popular. The stock was reduced to a pistol grip.

Again, personalities came into play. Some went looking for trouble -- and usually found it. Others, like me, considered a successful mission one in which we could go in, accomplish the mission and get out without making contact.

I can think of one specific time that I wouldn't be here to talk about it if I were loaded down like the two teams in question. Somehow we RONed in the middle of an NVA CP. We could hear them coming in by two and threes all night. I could hear the challenge and password as well as their radio transmissions. I had a five man team. We were all huddled together in a small cave made by a fallen tree on the hillside. In the morning one of the suckers walked so close to us I could reach out and grab his foot. Thank god it was raining. We managed to slip out of there without a shot. We made it to a ridge on the other side of the valley and called ARTY on them. This was again an in-country operation for the 4th ID. Thjere is no doubt that if we were loaded down like the two teams mentioned we would never have gotten out of that one.

This is in no way critical of people who see things differently. Don Valentine will tell you that if they would've let him he would have operated as a one man team.

For me, recon means :"Snoopin and Poopin". Maybe not very story worthy but I only had one failed mission. Actually it too was a success but I lost a 1-0.

Air.177 07-30-2004 18:01

QRQ-I am by no means an authority on such things, but the way it was explained to me, was that different teams had different capabilities and missions were assigned to teams based on what would be required of them. An area recon, wiretap, roadwatch etc would obviously be better tasked to a small team as you describe. OTOH, a larger team may be a better choice if the likelyhood of contact with extremely large concentrations of Enemy was expected - I am thinking of one particular incidence AM, Concentric campfire circles, Back me up here - or if a smaller team had discovered a cache site, or other valuable target and lacked the ability to call air or arty on it and wasn't able to destroy it on their own. I have seen limitations on aerial bombardment discussed elsewhere, A "Heavy" team would fill a niche. Just like Hammers, One doesn't use a Brass gunsmith's hammer to drive tentstakes, nor vice versa. Small Recon Teams Would be more likely to go unnoticed, while Large teams could gome in guns blazing if the situation dictated so.

Just My .02

brownapple 07-30-2004 19:10

Quote:

Originally posted by TerribleTobyt
Hey Al-

How ya been???????

Toby
1-2, RT California

Doing good. Keeping busy with work and my little girl.

QRQ 30 07-30-2004 19:11

Totally agreed Air. In reality, all of the teams in my day were STs (heavy). If an RT was preferred the team was split. In two years things probably changed. Our HF's were exploitation forces. The team would (for existance) find and observe an ambush site. They would then call for the HF and lead them to the target. Mr Charles could have taught out present day troops something about convoy movement. They tended to separate the trucks by 50+ meters and an RT could be lucky to kill more than one vehicle. It was more a matter of harrassment.

For the most part our missions were assigned almost on a "duty roster" basis. Unlike what Plaster says, we tried to get one day stand down for each day on the ground. If you were out one day you may as well not bother to unpack. Some missions were planned and others like the one I mentioned above were "spur of the moment". The mission I mentioned above was definitely spur-of-the-moment. The 4th ID had a convoy ambushed and thought they knew where the NVA CP was located. This was sunday morning. They grabbed me on the way to the club for brunch. All I could muster was my 11 and three Yards. As it turned out that was probably life saving. We accomplished the mission but it was a toss of the coin of who located whom..

QRQ 30 07-31-2004 16:09

Pappy Webb, sheen guns and mission length.
 
The conversations of yesterday reminded me of Clarence "Pappy" Webb. CRS team name but Pappy was the 1-0. The team consisted of Nungs who were totally loyal to him. Pappy carried an M-60. Our missions were planned for five days. Pappy used to say that he was too old for that and on about the third day would start walking trails looking for trouble. He usually found it.

Pappy's Nungs and most USSF loved him but he also wore out and scared the shit out of several U.S.:D

He turned down a promotion to MSG saying they just wanted to promote him so they could bust him again.

CPTAUSRET 07-31-2004 22:56

Toby:

Welcome aboard, glad to see you here:

Terry

Sigi 08-01-2004 06:48

RL - Thank you for starting this thread.

Gentlemen - thank you so much for everything you have done. I am reading Plaster 1st book (SOG) now and am learning as much as I can about the RT's and SOG. I simply cannot fathom the odds that the men of Special Forces went up against. You are truly amazing men.

Thank you for your service.

TerribleTobyt 08-03-2004 17:49

Quote:

Originally posted by CPTAUSRET
Toby:

Welcome aboard, glad to see you here:

Terry

Terry-

Thanx, great to be here.

Later.

Toby
1-2, RT California

TerribleTobyt 08-03-2004 18:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Air.177
I know this!!

Both were "Heavy" teams with 3 Americans and 9 Indig. Both carried a B-40 rocket launcher, a mortar, and at least one belt fed gun.


Also, I have heard talk that the One Zeros on both teams were considered to be Crazy by many folks, even in the Recon community.

Good going, Air.177.

During my time with RT California, we generally had 4 US and 10 yards.

We carried, at various times, CAR-15s, 2 ea XM-148s (the pre-curser to the M-203), 2 RPG-2s (I carried one, and 1 other yard carried one), and either an RPD, sawed-off, or an M-60. And, of course, the 60mm Mini Mortar.

Terry mentions intell gathering, heavy team vs light team. To a certain degree, he is correct. Let me assure you folks,though, there were very few 1-0s more diligent in gathering intel than Joe Walker. We brought mounds of intel. And if we happened into a fire fight, our very first move was to ATTACK, form a skirmish line, and go toe to toe with the god-less horde.

AND WE KICKED SOME SERIOUS BUTT!!!!!!!!

John Plaster is correct in his assessment that the RT took on the personna. We did, but we had to buy into Joe's way of doing things. The force of his personality was but one factor. But we drilled for hours on IA Drills until we not only knew our own responsibility, but the responsibilities of everyone else.

Martin may want to jump in here to discuss Ed Wolcoff's use of "The Diamond" formation for RT New York.

Later.

Toby
1-2, RT California

TerribleTobyt 08-04-2004 08:32

Quote:

Originally posted by lurch
I served with MACVSOG at CCN August 1970-August 1971

Recon Teams Python - Klaus Bingham 10 and Virginia - Keith Messinger 10. Then worked for "No Toes Dover" at the Phu Bai launch site. Lots of stories but don't know what sort you want to hear.

Gents-

I have to admit I was taken aback when I saw your user name.

"lurch" was the code name for David I Mixter, 1-1 RT Colorado. He was SOGs last KIA in Laos, Jan 71.

A good MoFo.

Later.

Toby
1-2, RT California

lurch 08-07-2004 20:38

Quote:

Originally posted by TerribleTobyt
Gents-

I have to admit I was taken aback when I saw your user name.

"lurch" was the code name for David I Mixter, 1-1 RT Colorado. He was SOGs last KIA in Laos, Jan 71.

A good MoFo.

Later.

Toby
1-2, RT California

Actual "Lurch" was a name that one of the guys in Recon (John "Hammy" Houser) code name Spearchucker called me. I think my code name was "huckleberry hounddog" or something I really don't remember. I've been called a lot of things "lurch" was just one of them. Hope the use here is OK. I didn't mean to cross over into a fellow soggers code name or cause a problem.

mike

TerribleTobyt 08-08-2004 17:29

Quote:

Originally posted by lurch
Actual "Lurch" was a name that one of the guys in Recon (John "Hammy" Houser) code name Spearchucker called me. I think my code name was "huckleberry hounddog" or something I really don't remember. I've been called a lot of things "lurch" was just one of them. Hope the use here is OK. I didn't mean to cross over into a fellow soggers code name or cause a problem.

mike

No prob with me, Bro.

Jes struck me kinda funny. Not funny, haha, jes - ya know, jes funny.

Later.

Toby
1-2, RT California

Martinez 12-23-2004 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleTobyt
Toby Todd here. Ran on RT California with Joe Walker, 1-0, the same time Martin was doing his RT New York thingy.

I have all of John Plaster's books about SOG. IMHO, no one has done a better job of telling OUR story.

Martin, c'ya at SOAR, I hope.

Later.

Toby
1-2, RT CAlifornia


Hey Toby, how the heck are ya? Speaking of Joe Walker, what's he up to these days?

Jennifer Martinez sends

The Reaper 12-23-2004 19:21

JEN!!

Great to see you again!

Merry Christmas, little Sis!

TR

Martinez 12-23-2004 19:28

Thanks Sir!

Merry Christmas and Happy Hand Grenades to you and yours! How ya been?

Jennifer sends

The Reaper 12-23-2004 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinez
Thanks Sir!

Merry Christmas and Happy Hand Grenades to you and yours! How ya been?

Jennifer sends

Great, thanks!

Hope that the new year brings you enough time to visit here more often.

Be safe, take care.

TR

C/S PHOENIX 10 12-24-2004 18:59

Special Thanks
 
I just want to extend a special thanks to the men of the original ST and RT. As some of you may know my detachment brought back the old RT concept along the Afghan/Pakistan border region(on the Afgan side). As one may guess it was a hard sell to the higher-up's, but it was supported and had great results. We did nothing fancy just stuck the the basic, but it allow a single detachment and a handfull of Indig to disrupt many miles of border and take the fight back to the enemy. Again just want to say thank you and times may change, but somethings just work. Hat off to you all......

QRQ 30 12-24-2004 22:29

To Phoenix 1-0
 
The jungle became my friend. I had NVA walk so close to me I could reach out and touch them. The treeless open environment on Afghanistan must be a special problem. Keep up the good work!! :lifter

C/S PHOENIX 10 12-25-2004 18:47

I can talk without violating OPSEC, because when we left so did the concept we employed. Basicly, we split ourselves into 4 RT. One heavy and three light. The light was comprised of 2 USSF and 5 HN, while the heavy package had a larger commo and medic skill sets. This team was 4 SF, 5 HN and terp. On the lights we didn't need a terp and would work through the radio with the heavy's terp if needed. Normally we would deploy all four RT's into a large box giving each RT their own AO. Acouple of times we deployed one or two RT's on their own. Our longest mission I think was about ten days. We where able to top-off on water from some streams to sustain. The open desert does have it's own challenges but one learns to adjust TTP's to fit the terrain. My father is an old SF from the day and so is my neigbor. Some of you old timers would be amazed how close Nam and Afghanistan really are minus the terrain piece. We have all of the border issues, and polical concerns that you all did and then some too. Afghanistan is the true forgotten war in America's eyes. But believe the stories that guys will tell. It is no Iraq, but there are plenty of bad dudes running around. On several occations we also deployed the RT's as a single large Mike force package plused up with additional HN reacting to other teams in contact or conducting other DA type of missions. Never got tied up like the old timers, but did our best to serve with honor and not bring shame to the RT's traditions under any conditions. Also the 4 RT's were RT RAPTOR, HAWK, OSPREY, KESTREL. I was the 1-0 of Raptor and Viking was the 1-1 on Hawk. RT Phoenix was our detachment made throw back long before we employed the RT concept in combat. I would like to go into more details but this is as far as I will go on a open forum.

rwt_bkk 12-25-2004 19:53

C/S PHOENIX 10 wrote "but did our best to serve with honor and not bring shame to the RT's traditions under any conditions"

Listen all of us old SOGGIES are proud as hell of you guys. You are never forgotten amongst us. We hope that you will all join the SOA and come share your stories with us one day. It takes a little time before you can talk about everything. But we understand that.
We SALUTE you..

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you from all of us.


Keep Safe and Kill ALL the Bastards.

Ambush Master 12-25-2004 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwt_bkk
Listen all of us old SOGGIES are proud as hell of you guys. You are never forgotten amongst us. We hope that you will all join the SOA and come share your stories with us one day. It takes a little time before you can talk about everything. But we understand that.
We SALUTE you..

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you from all of us.


Keep Safe and Kill ALL the Bastards.

HERE HERE !!! Hell, it took over 30 years for SOG to even be recognized, I hope you guys get treated beter than that.

C/S Phoenix, you mentioned that your Dad and neighbor are X-SF. Get them in here !!!

Glad it worked for ya. You guys please stay in touch.

Take care.
Martin

TerribleTobyt 01-16-2005 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwt_bkk
C/S PHOENIX 10 wrote "but did our best to serve with honor and not bring shame to the RT's traditions under any conditions"

Listen all of us old SOGGIES are proud as hell of you guys. You are never forgotten amongst us. We hope that you will all join the SOA and come share your stories with us one day. It takes a little time before you can talk about everything. But we understand that.
We SALUTE you..

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you from all of us.


Keep Safe and Kill ALL the Bastards.

You got that shit right, Bro!!!!!!!

God Bless You ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

We ARE so proud of Y'all!!!!!!!!!

scoot 01-17-2005 03:44

Thank You,

Scott

Hardcore 02-12-2005 02:21

First post
 
Yo Gang,

First post on this site and being aFNG I am not sure about all the protocols. anyway, served with CCS from Sep '69 through August of '70. Launch site commander at Quan Loi, S4 at BMT for a while and then the XO. Also went into Cambodia at Ba Kev with CPT S, SFC H, and MSG W.

I am sure that I know who BMT is that posted a previous reply.

Is it OK to mention names here? If that is you Jackie, acknowledge

Hardcore

Roguish Lawyer 02-12-2005 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardcore
Yo Gang,

First post on this site and being aFNG I am not sure about all the protocols. anyway, served with CCS from Sep '69 through August of '70. Launch site commander at Quan Loi, S4 at BMT for a while and then the XO. Also went into Cambodia at Ba Kev with CPT S, SFC H, and MSG W.

I am sure that I know who BMT is that posted a previous reply.

Is it OK to mention names here? If that is you Jackie, acknowledge

Hardcore

Welcome to the Board!

TerribleTobyt 02-12-2005 15:52

Hardcore!!!!!!!!

Welcome aboard!!!!!! ;)

Toby

Martinez 02-12-2005 17:58

I second that emotion, its good to have you here with us, Hardcore.

BTW, since you were with CCS, did you by any chance know my dear friend Dale Libby?

Jennifer Martinez sends

CPTAUSRET 02-12-2005 17:59

Hardcore, welcome aboard!

You are sure to find old friends here.

Terry

NousDefionsDoc 02-12-2005 18:36

Welcome Hardcore

Sacamuelas 02-12-2005 22:57

1 Attachment(s)
Welcome Hardcore!


Paul Duffy, Greg Hoisington, Toby and Hardcore(2)

Martinez 02-16-2005 14:35

Ok Ringo my man, where are you?

Jennifer sends

bushmaster11 02-16-2005 16:11

bushmaster11 response to MACVSOG post
 
I was hijacked on my second tour to RVN and sent kicking & screaming w/ MP escort to the 11th ACR. I called everyone I could think of to help free me from my banishment. After about 2 weeks of being in the recon platoon, beating bushes w/ the Air Cav Troop, I got orders back to 5th SFG. Once back under SF control I volunteered for SOACCN. It is difficult to explain the operational and downtime environments between conventional vs SF. Both tours of duty were amazing. I eventually was the one-one on RT Bushmaster. During my 5 year association w/ SF community, I worked with the most remarkable people, they were colorful, the most competent of people I have ever worked with either before or since.

J R sends
De Oppresso Liber

Mick Strider 02-16-2005 16:16

Wow......

This thread is incredible!

Thanks to all you crusty old bastards.......i feel honored to have had a chance to read your stories....i have the bumps.....



Thanks again and welcome home.



If i can be of ANY service.....please don't hesitate.




m


.

hurly 02-16-2005 17:31

Just checking in
 
Hello all,
Just checking in. Served in CCN, 46th Co (loved Thailand) JCRC, 7th SFG
91B4S(now 18D)

NousDefionsDoc 02-16-2005 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurly
Hello all,
Just checking in. Served in CCN, 46th Co (loved Thailand) JCRC, 7th SFG
91B4S(now 18D)

Welcome aboard. Always good to have another Doc in the house. 'Specially a 7th Group Doc. :lifter

Team Sergeant 02-16-2005 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurly
Hello all,
Just checking in. Served in CCN, 46th Co (loved Thailand) JCRC, 7th SFG
91B4S(now 18D)

Welcome!

(Thailand is a wonderful place!)

TerribleTobyt 02-16-2005 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Welcome aboard. Always good to have another Doc in the house. 'Specially a 7th Group Doc. :lifter

Whats so whoopdydoo 'bout 7th Gp Medics???????

:D :rolleyes: :p


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