Expert might be a little stretched when assigned to this guy. I was very unimpressed with his airplane crash survival episode, he almost didn't make it, another day or two and he would have been dead. Great show for the empty headed MTV crowd. :rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

I watched that episode last night with the wife. Disclamer or no disclamer someone is gonna follow his Darwin-istic lead right into the wilderness and become a human popsicle. Some people will do anything for a buck.

Watch again, his Plane Crash episode was one of the worst I've seen.

By expert I was more meaning he had a lot of skill in the art of, tracking, trapping, friction fire, and the knowledge of plants and trees (ex. what is good to eat, what bark lights up better)

He's been all around the world surviving in harsh conditions for 7 days on his own. I think he is qualified to be considered an expert.
______________________________________________

"I was very unimpressed with his airplane crash survival episode, he almost didn't make it, another day or two and he would have been dead. "

Care to go into further detail?

ZoneOne, not to be rude or anything, but you may want to search for a thread on alpine mountaineering to get a different perspective on how these gentlemen consider civilian 'experts'.

Martin

Post removed by poster.

Sorry I was not thinking when I posted in here.

Cheers,

Sten.

Zoneone,

I’m not going to play your jerry springer lets prey on the stupid people game. The guy is not a survival expert by any stretch of the imagination.

“Scientific American” March 2005 issue, an “Ask the Experts” question. “How long can a person survive without food?” Answer from a knowledgeable physician in this very field and I quote, “Without liquid or foods people typically perish after 10 – 14 days.” Alan D. Lieberson, M.D.

This guy is producing another MTV level reality show. Seven days without food or water as a “real” expert said, would not likely kill him. If and when he survives for months on end then and only then would I consider him an “expert” in the field of survival.

You really should do more reading and less watching of the TV. (I actually watched this episode only because it was on the “Scientific Channel”, I didn’t watch it all because it did not take long to figure out it was pure BS, but great for 12 year olds actually.) I would place this guys abilities right up there with a boy scout.

And to answer your question, yes I've been to a Special Forces survival school/schools, to include winter, desert and jungle survival. Oh and the schools I attended incorporated surviving while being hunted by really bad men. :eek:

Team Sergeant
(Once survived six months without beer in a hostile environment!Desert Storm)

Heck why not. I’ll go into further detail.

I was raised in Alaska not as a city kid, but as an Alaskan. And after having personally taught civilian "survival" courses in the Arctic between my first and second stints in the Army I can validate TS's statement that 'Surivor Man' wasn't holding his own against the elements and would at best have laid in the woods for maybe another two days or so before paying for his disrespect of an unforgiving environment. Ever read Jack London’s “To Build a Fire”?

Surivor Man's skills "in the art of, tracking, trapping, friction fire, and the knowledge of plants and trees (ex. what is good to eat, what bark lights up better)" were at best basic skills anyone who ventures into the wild should be very familiar with. After a plane crash isn't the time to experiment with fire starting techniques. After all… what make’s a high-speed guy high-speed? Mastery of basic skills…

The first of his skills I found lacking was his priorities of work. His priorities should have been shelter, then fire, then water, then food, and then rescue (which he never addressed).

Firstly he should have taken inventory of what he had at his disposal. He was pretty amped about getting a fire going, and understandably so. But he didn't gather enough fuel for the fire, tinder, or kindling. He gathered some, but not enough. He didn't prepare the fire site adequately; he threw a chuck of aluminum on the ground for a base... that was it. He should have cleared the snow to the ground, built his fire base (ever thaw out perma-frost? Gets sorta soggy), built a fire deflector into his already build shelter, and then used his ample supply of firewood to start a fire that would actually help keep you alive… I would rather set my head on fire than get up in the middle of the night to find wood to keep a fire alive. Keep the fire alive and it will keep you alive. ANYWAY, He finally gets the fire going thru a liberal use of av-fuel. Here's a piece of UBI (Useless Bit 'o Info), all those little branches he kept snapping off as he walked thru the woods... that's kindling, use it. In cold environments don't waste time using (dulling) and axe for firewood. You should "club" low-lying branches (squaw wood) off the trees, because the tree's sap is brittle and will snap with little effort... conservation of effort. At least later he eventually prepared some char-cloth, albeit a few pieces.Luckily he maintains the fire (little victories) as he turns his attention to shelter.

Meanwhile its getting dark, and he still didn't have adequate shelter for the night. So onto his most important task in the Arctic… shelter. The plane as shelter? Come on... have you ever decided to wait in the car at the shopping center with the heat off in the winter? You get cold VERY fast. He was in an evergreen forest! All that snow and all those trees... he should have lived like a king. He should have moved back into the trees twenty meters or so. I won’t go in into the plethora of shelters he could have made, I will simply address one we’re all familiar with… the lean-to. Everyone has made at least one in the life even if it was made from sofa cushions. All he needed to do was get one sturdy pole to used as a cross member and lash it (gotta know knots, or tie a lot) between two trees. Take your firewood-fetching club and start wacking down evergreen boughs. Enough for ideally 18” of compacted boughs on the top of the shelter and the bottom (which you have excavated of snow). Not enough time or daylight? Ok skimp a little on each and add more in the morning. He should have slept very comfortably tucked back in the woods in his lean-to with the radiant heat of his fire being reflected into the shelter from the. Instead he sorta improved his air-plane shell buy rearranging a few pieces and using his jacket (!) as a door. Not the best use of a wool jacket.

Let’s address water… eating snow? NO. He even said you’re not supposed to, but opted rather to lower his core temperature. Melt ice… conservation of effort. Ya ever melt snow? You don’t get alotta bang for the buck. He was trying to chop his way to fish and water away from the shoreline. The ice is thinner near the shore anyway so chop there. But do it with a better tool than an axe. He should/could have fashioned a 6’ long ice pick to aide in the process… conservation of effort. Then take a few chunks of ice, stuff them in a sock or a bag made from the skin of the plane, hang it next to the fire over a vessel and melt the ice. Then drink the water. Not a lot of wasted effort since you’re already in your shelter getting warm, entertained by keeping the fire stoked, and plotting you next move towards rescue escape.

Food… seven days. Hmm… tough call. I would spend the evening in my shelter making snares clubs and a spear while sipping pine needle tea. In the morning I would set the snares out and do a little foraging. Food can be foraged, but traps require the skill of construction and scheme of emplacement.

So I’ve just set out my snares, chewed on some pine tree meat, gathered more firewood, improved, maybe put up a shadow-stick compass for poops-&-giggles… now what? Well you’re in a survival situation still… get rescued! Start constructing static signals, build three (int’l distress number) signal tepees, drag the carcass of the plane onto the ice and clear the snow from around the base, lay some pine boughs out on the lake too… get seen! Survival ain’t sitting in an airplane feeling sorry for yourself procrastinating the walk out if need be, or not improving your immediate situation. If it took a year to get rescued he should be found with a cabin and a boat dock and a smokehouse for fish. Oh you are walking out? Gather enough supplies, walk for a day, stop, do it all again, and repeat until you’re back to civilization. And then try to not get mugged at 7-11 or die in a car wreck.

One last (yeah, yeah, I know...) point. Make tools for specific tasks. Don’t misuse an axe and risk breaking the handle, or misuse it and injure yourself. Make clubs, spears, snares, atlatl’s or whatever, just use them in a safe manner so you don’t cause injury to yourself. Did you see in the episode where he could have cut himself trying to rip a piece of the plane by hand? And then he tried it again! And he rarely wore his mittens during the day. Clothes are shelter too, and he kept taking them off. That’s right, because he didn’t have gloves. Well if you’re going into the Arctic wear thin “contact” gloves so skin never has to touch anything especially metal.

If anything his lack of appreciation for the environment kicked up a few ideas in people’s minds. Maybe his show gets more people interested in “survival” skills, and that’s good. You need to know how to survive in any environment… in the city, on the farm, in the woods, on the water, desert, etc. Survival is living. And the skills you acquire will help you survive. He should of at least used the Boy Scout motto as a guideline… “Be Prepared.”

And to caveat Team Sergeant… it IS a different game altogether when you are having to survive while being hunted. TS, I don’t know if I could have survived six months without beer. :confused:

My 2¢, and then some.

longtab:

Great post! Spot on!

I don't believe I ever went six months w/out beer.

Terry

Longtab,

Now that's how you resurrect a thread from near-death! Huzzah!

Thanks for the post longtab,

Like I said, the episode we are referring to was terrible compared to the rest. Other episodes show greater skill and knowledge, but I retract my statement of claiming him as an expert.
"He was in an evergreen forest! All that snow and all those trees... he should have lived like a king"
I agree on the shelter he made, with all the evergreens, he could have made something better and warmer :-) I've taken a winter survival course, though I was cold all the time (I'm from Florida) once I learned proper shelters I was sleeping comfortably enough. He claimed to wake up every 15 minutes because of the cold, that would have killed him if he kept on.

Survival skills are something I enjoy learning and practicing, so I have taken a liking to this show simply because it's actually something to watch on t.v. compared to all the crap. I think though, he may "dumb down" his show to give the average joe an idea of what it would really be like. Maybe, just a thought

If you've got time, keep watching, you may or may not find humor in watching him try and "survive"

Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone. :D

I'm more of a Playboy's The Girls Next Door guy myself, but I will definately tune in and see what Survivor-Man does to himself next.

Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone


I think they did have a Ranger on once and he failed at the eating "nasty stuff" contest. Maybe I'm just making stuff up in my head :confused:

Also - it was a couple of years ago - but there was a T.V. show I think aired on USA that had Navy SEALs preforming fake operations and stuff like that.
All I remember is Cade Courtley

Edit

upon a quick search I found the name - "Combat Missions"

BTW I appreciate all the replies and information given

Zone, I like TV and Movies too, BUT!! They are made for entertainment and any actual connection to reality is purely accidental. Yes, even the news is entertainment.

concur.
If anyone try applying for the show, there's a long and detailed screening questionnaire asking for prior service, origins etc.

I'd imagine they will also reject participants coming from rural areas of Udon Thani or Guangzhou. When it comes to eating the nasty stuff, these folks might ask for seconds, take the other participants share, or get a go-box. Then they'd be disqualified for not having the "factor"

Actually right now they are casting for a "Military" episode of Fear Factor. They are looking for 1M-1F teams of AD from any brach of service. They don't mention any restrictions on SF or Rangers, etc. Although one team member does have to be female, it doesn't say that they have to have been in the same unit. So I suppose it should be conceivable for a team guy and a support chick, fresh back from the sandbox, could compete together. Reminder: a team is only as strong as its weakest link.

I'll watch that one though. :munchin


S

Salt and pepper sachets from takeaway restaurants are useful. Salt becaust your body loses it faster than you realise, and you'll need to replace it. Pepper because you may beed to flavour some critter before you eat it. :munchin

I carry a couple of roaster or microwave bags. The type you put a chicken in before you stick it in the oven. You can cary water in them and you can boil water in them over a fire. You might also want to mark the bag with 1 and 2 litre lines around it so you know where to fill it to before popping in your tabs/drops.

mbassoc2003:

Introduce yourself in the Introductions thread and fill out your profile, if you would.

Thanks.

TR

I think this thread is VERY informative. Great job on starting the discussion Reaper.

I'm reading through everyone else's responses first to see if I can come up with some new items before I post my list.

Will enjoy reading on...

Hey all, first post after my intro.

An old bush pilot once told me that knowledge of how to make a fish trap and a dozen locking snares were worth their weight in gold (he carried 36 in various sizes -- eating off of snares is a numbers game). Obviously not good for the tobacco tin/back pocket kit, but exactly right for the scenario The Reaper proposed. I have no idea who these guys are, I post the link just to show what I'm talking about. http://www.nwtrappers.com/catalog/snares/thompson.asp

A correctly sized locking snare can reliably take anything from squirrels and rabbits to deer.

Edited to add:

I remembered he also said a "drowner" was easier to make if you were going to carry brass wire and not pre-made locking snares. It was easier to find tracks by the water, and thereby sites for the trap, and you were less likely to lose your catch to a predator. He said a hole dug in the bank was irresistable to many animals. I never followed his advice to learn how to do this, but I did find --> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/chpt9.pdf

You learn something every day.

I have never seen a drowner, great idea for fur, or traps that are checked regularly, but I doubt that meat would be very good if the animal had been dead underwater for a day ot two.

I was also surprised that a state government site tells how to trap and kill animals. You would think that PETA would have cried all over them or ALF would have burned down their website by now.

Thanks for the link!

TR

Hey, 7th SFGA, I assumed you'd be eating nutria -- and they like water. :o

The same old brush pilot carried a beater sawed off side-by-side with slugs, for bear, and an old Ted Williams single-shot .22 with longs for caribou. He said long rifles tore up too much meat. He was definitely a proponent of shot placement.

Survive!
 

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone.

I remember a few years back when the reality shows starting getting big USASOC put out a message banning all AD personnel from applying for these shows. Do's anyone remember this message?

KGOERZ et al;
It's actually posted in the commander's policy section in ALL spec-ops units (Army)...Kept us out of some UFC/fighting venues as well. I do remember them using active duty 1st Grp assistance in setting up one of the "survivor" episodes though...just not as participants who could win some $$$
cheers

You guys get enough reality programing as it is without having to be on TV.

Had to ask my kids (5th year Latin students) what "et al" means. This place keeps making my head hurt learning new stuff.

Reaper,
Cold water in the north might help cool and keep meat edible while warm water wouldn't. I've never eaten fur or feathered game without a projectile hole in it.

kgoerz,
IIRC, there was a reality show called Combat Mission. I can't remember whether the participant are all veterans or not, but some of them are SOF personnel. Maybe this is before the ban?

On a different (& less serious) note, one reality show I'd like to see service men & women participating is Takeshi Castle (aka. MXC). Although most of the obstacles are plain hillarious, some should belong to boot camp and/or circus.

On the survival topic, are there scenarios in Robin Sage that require survival training akin to SERE? Please disregard if this touches OPSEC or ruins the movie.

Good links mugwump.

As a high schooler growing up running a trap-line in Alaska I used a couple drowners for wolves. I would stake my trap below the high tide line, bait it, cover it so bald eagles couldn't get into it, and fetch up a drowned wolf once ever two days like clockwork.

longtab -- Really enjoyed your AAR on Survivorman. My son, daughter and I like to dive/fish in less-traveled places and I am always harping on them to learn survival skills. My daughter and I watch Survivorman together -- that show is priceless for examples of how to kill yourself! Check out the Costa Rica one if you get a chance. It's a hoot.

I've seen a 'wire saw' in a few lists in this thread. I used to carry one until I had to use it in anger in northern Ontario in a combined conifer and birch forest. It gummed up badly and then broke. I purchased a "Pocket ChainSaw" and have never looked back. The can it's stored in is little bigger than a can of Cope and has room for small fishing items as well. It's hard to believe how well these little buggers work until you try one. So well in fact that I'd prefer one over a hatchet. With one of these and a decent sheath knife you could make a really sturdy shelter in no time.

http://www.pocketchainsaw.com/

There's a good review at Equipped To Survive:

http://www.equipped.com/saws.htm

Out here in Oregon we buy those with the motors on 'em

Hey, I've played DOOM. Those things are dangerous.

Oh, that brings back memories...

For some, a fresh roll of Copenhagen is considered a mandatory survival item!!!

Seriously, the can has a wax base making it not only relatively water resistant for things like matches or gunpowder, etc., but also useful for "tinder" since the wax/paper combination burns quite easily. Plus, a portion of the shiny tin lid can be cut away and used as a lure for fishing...

LOL, a fresh log of tin-top, stateside Cope is gold to some. I'd never heard of the stuff before I started sending off morale packages a coupla years ago. Now I know that logs are "born" on Tuesdays, where to look for "born" dates, and that it's best to vacuum-seal three tins to a bag (don't know why though).

That reminds me, it's Tuesday.

I do the same, or use airtight containers. It helps to retard the aging process.

OK,

I have read (and contributed in the past on ) this thread; and I have another question:

If you could pack only 2 books on survival with you in your kit(s), which would they be?

Again, thanks.

Sire

I would agree w/ Razor,

But I would change out the Boy Scout book w/ Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival

All three would give you some great ideas to hopefully make living a little bit less stressful.

Also, in regards to traps as mentioned earlier. Does anyone have a favorite trap or one they think works best?

For relative ease, I consider the Figure 4 to be great. If you take your time you can make one with out a knife by just finding the right sticks and making a couple of well placed bends or breaks.
There are many traps out there from relatively simple to highly advanced, such as the Piaute bird trap.

Picture taken from the Tracker Trail.
http://www.trackertrail.com/survival...oKnife7701.jpg

I have used a variety of traps and snares that work well, but I choose those that work best for the animal I am after and have no particular favorite. The key to any of them is just like setting an ambush, you have to understand the target.

Minimalism
 

Don't hurt me for digging out this old thread ;)
IMO it's one of the most interesting threads for both, servicemen and civilians.

Since this isn't supposed to be a prepared camping trip I'll focus on minimalism.

Tasks

1. Water: Find the nearby water source; cook some water and store it.
2. Staying healthy: See No.1 plus... Collect lots of wood; light a fire; build a shelter; do personal hygiene at least once a day.
3. Food: Build and set up traps; hunt animals; collect edible plants, berries, ...
4. Rescue: Build static signals which can be seen from aircrafts

Needs-related examination

1. Container (aluminium): Is essential.
2. Knife: Is essential, too.
3. Flint: Is essential, too. But it could be found in this environment.
4. Antibiotics: The right antibiotic could become No.1 very fast in case of an infection.

IMO, when it comes to the crunch it would be possible to survive this scenario without any tools or equipment. But that would be an experience I'm not eager to make.


(Please excuse my bad english grammar.)

Herr Jager:

No problem, I started this thread for people to exchange ideas.

I agree, it is possible to survive in this scenario with nothing, IF there is suitable material in the area for making fire and for making cutting tools.

Our forefathers on the frontier in the US would probably set out for a couple of months of hunting or trapping with a rifle and ammo, an axe, a knife, some cordage, a blanket, a tarp, a pot, a canteen, some flour, salt, sugar, coffee, tobacco, and a flint. That doesn't mean it would be that easy for us.

On the other hand, as you correctly note, first, identify your survival needs, then select the minimum number of items to give you the ability to meet those needs (particularly multiple use items), get the knowledge and practice to use them properly, have your mind properly focused, and you should be able to weather the event without anything worse than losing a few pounds.

I would rate the need for antibiotics much lower, though, and would prefer to take an axe or large knife and some type of line or cordage.

Thanks for your input, and stop apologizing for your English, we have native speakers here doing much worse.

TR