Professional Soldiers

Professional Soldiers (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php)
-   Special Forces Fieldcraft (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=65)
-   -   Survive! (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1540)

The Reaper 04-27-2004 19:36

Survive!
 
You are dropped uninjured into a remote forest environment wearing BDUs and boots. Your pockets are empty and you have no additional gear. You are non-tactical, i.e., no enemy is hunting you. It is in a temperate climatic area, in the spring. Daytime highs are in the 70s, but at night it drops below 40. There is a natural water source of unknown potability nearby. No known shelter is available. If located, you may be rescued sooner than 60 days, but that may not happen. You are going to remain in the immediate area and not walk out for at least the next two months.

What are the minimum tools and equipment you need to survive for 60 days in this environment?

What are your essential tasks? What are the priorities?

Feel free to add to this list of questions as needed, and let's see the least extensive list you feel you could survive with.

TR

Ambush Master 04-27-2004 20:59

When you say "Dropped" does that mean via parachute, or placed ??

If placed, what type of "Craft (ie Aircraft, Boat, etc) delivered us (me) there ?? This is a very complex scenario that needs to be defined up-front. This will get real deep Very Fast !!

Get it on !!

Larter.
Martin

The Reaper 04-27-2004 22:34

AM:

You could have been dropped off by a turnip truck, a chopper, a barge, or any other means which does not provide you with any extras (like a parachute, or an aircraft to salvage).

I want to see what you think you need to survive for an extended period.

I think I know what I would need, vs. what could be found or obtained locally with the tools I bring or could make.

Rather than make the scenario too complicated with the many angles we could get lost in debating, I am just looking for the bare essentials required to survive in a relatively benign environment.

Adding bad guys, Artic conditions, large predators, etc. would unnecessarily complicate the scenario.

We can complicate this further later with a size/weight restriction, environmental changes, etc., but for now let's just look at it from a vanilla perspective.

For example, to survive in the above environment, I will need at least one means to make a fire. Whether I choose steel and flint, a magnifying glass, using a bootlace and local materials to make a fire bow, or to carry a butane lighter is my decision. All have advantages and disadvantages we can discuss.

I may not like your choice, or your logic, but I will probably learn something in the process of the discussion.

A spate of articles about the Lewis and Clark expedition and a recent thread about E&E put me in this thought process. How much gear do you really need to survive, and how do you carry it?

Some will need less than others, by a decreased comfort level, or by personal skills and knowledge. There are people who could do this with just a machete and a flint striker, and live relatively well. Others may think they need a support vehicle, and would still suffer.

TR

brownapple 04-28-2004 04:41

I'm breaking my list into two segments:


1. Need, meaning it is absolutely essential. It may be that there is a way to create the needed item locally available, but I will still need them.

2. Want, meaning items that are not absolutely essential but will make the 2 months much more likely to be in reasonable condition.


NEED:

Cutting implement
Fire-starter
Cordage
Sewing implements


Want:

Medical items (to include antibiotics)
Salt
Some food items/supplements

Depending on the AO, all the "need" items can be manufactured by hand if necessary.

Priorities (dependent somewhat on time of drop-off and immediate AO characteristics):

Fire
Shelter
Water
Food

The Reaper 04-28-2004 05:45

I like the way you are thinking.

We can get into specific tools later.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP) 04-28-2004 07:32

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
AM:



Rather than make the scenario too complicated with the many angles we could get lost in debating, I am just looking for the bare essentials required to survive in a relatively benign environment.


TR

I don't want to stir things up too much, but there really is no such thing as a benign environment and while I agree that fire, shelter, water, and food are all critical the priority in which you go about obtaining (creating) them are environmentally dependent and you can make an argument for which one rises to the top. I guess the bottom line here is that your first priority after "drop off" for me would be to make an immediate assessment of where I am and what the "benign" environment presents. While I am relatively sure in this situation my first priority would be to find something that would shelter me from the most likely environmental challenges for the night, my next would be to gather enough wood and get a fire going to announce my presence in case folks were starting to look for my sorry butt even though I was dumb enought to get isolated in the first place. Now I am sure you can also argue that a fire would be your first priority, but if you have arrived as you have mentioned without matches or the good old Zippo we all used to carry I am not sure I would want to strip off my boot laces and start trying to create a fire with a bow and block only to have night time fall and still be sitting out in a rainstorm and dealing with hypothermia overnight. So to make a long story short a lot is scenario dependent and you really have to understand where you are, what is around you, what the impending challenges are and then proceed from there. Just a thought.

Jack Moroney

QRQ 30 04-28-2004 07:39

Your original premise is a little confusing. You say I have nothing but the clothes I'm wearing and then ask what I should have/need.

The clothes including boot laces can be util;ized for something and I wear glasses for fire starting, heh, heh, heh.

The list is pretty accurate: water, fire, shelter, food.

:munchin

The Reaper 04-28-2004 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Moroney
I don't want to stir things up too much, but there really is no such thing as a benign environment and while I agree that fire, shelter, water, and food are all critical the priority in which you go about obtaining (creating) them are environmentally dependent and you can make an argument for which one rises to the top. I guess the bottom line here is that your first priority after "drop off" for me would be to make an immediate assessment of where I am and what the "benign" environment presents. While I am relatively sure in this situation my first priority would be to find something that would shelter me from the most likely environmental challenges for the night, my next would be to gather enough wood and get a fire going to announce my presence in case folks were starting to look for my sorry butt even though I was dumb enought to get isolated in the first place. Now I am sure you can also argue that a fire would be your first priority, but if you have arrived as you have mentioned without matches or the good old Zippo we all used to carry I am not sure I would want to strip off my boot laces and start trying to create a fire with a bow and block only to have night time fall and still be sitting out in a rainstorm and dealing with hypothermia overnight. So to make a long story short a lot is scenario dependent and you really have to understand where you are, what is around you, what the impending challenges are and then proceed from there. Just a thought.

Jack Moroney

My intent here was to spur a little discussion about survival gear without having people prepare an extensive list to include weapons and implements of destruction to defend themselves against the Waffen SS, VC, Indians, lions, tigers, or bears.

Sir, I consider the area around Ft. Bragg and CMK to be pretty benign, and described it as an example. There are no real enemy threats, nor are there very many large predators that would seek out and attack a fully grown human. The environment here is such that there are relatively few days per year with climatic extremes that would kill a healthy adult individual with the ability to make expedient shelter and fire. I was dropped off by Badin Lake for the survival portion of the SFQC and managed quite well for five days with very few tools. I know what I took, think I know what I would need to extend the time, and would like to see what others thought, perhaps teaching a bit and learning something in the process. I chose 60 days because the average person could probably just build an expedient shelter and lay up for a month without hunting or gathering much.

My question was multi part starting with:

What are the Minimum tools and equipment you need to survive for 60 days in this environment? You tell me. If you need a Zippo and think that one would be adequate to support you for starting fires for 60 days in that environment, fine.

You seem to be indicating shelter would be your first priority after arriving, assessing, and taking stock of the situation, followed by fire.

QRQ:

Sorry to have confused you.

Are you indicating that you consdider the clothes you have on and your glasses are adequate to survive in the woods for 60 days without support? Hope it isn't overcast or night time already. What will you cut with?

Water, fire, shelter, food as priorities could be juggled due to exigencies, as JM indicated. Now what tools do you use to acquire and prepare them? In this scenario, an axe or a machete might be an adequate edged item. Without additional fuel sources, I would pass on the Zippo. The BIC or a Blastmatch might be a better choice for me.

I have already learned that I had forgotten salt, and the extraordinary value it had in the past years. Thanks GH.

I use black 550 cord for my bootlaces, that should be enough cordage for my initial requirements, and more could be found in the wild.

What/why would you need to sew, though I grant that some monofilament line, a couple of manufactured needles and hooks could be very handy, and would take up very little space?

Anyone who feels that this thread is not productive, or the scenario is too vague feel free to disregard it or in the admins' case, delete this thread.

Just trying to generate some thought and education here.

TR

QRQ 30 04-28-2004 09:00

TR: I took your original problem literally:

Quote:

You are dropped uninjured into a remote forest environment wearing BDUs and boots. Your pockets are empty and you have no additional gear.
That would preclude a "packing List". As for going naked, I presumed you would allow shorts, T-shirt and socks. Also web belt w/metal buckle. I really think we could work with this. It's not too dissimilar to survival school.

If we are going to have a packing list let's try a GPS.:D

Roguish Lawyer 04-28-2004 09:25

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
Anyone who feels that this thread is not productive, or the scenario is too vague feel free to disregard it or in the admins' case, delete this thread.

Just trying to generate some thought and education here.

It is quite educational for me and I hope the thread will continue. Thanks to everyone who participates.

The Reaper 04-28-2004 10:00

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30
TR: I took your original problem literally:

That would preclude a "packing List". As for going naked, I presumed you would allow shorts, T-shirt and socks. Also web belt w/metal buckle. I really think we could work with this. It's not too dissimilar to survival school.

If we are going to have a packing list let's try a GPS.:D

I want a minimum packing list of items you would need, in addition to what you are wearing, and would consider additions of what you would want. I listed the BDUs and boots so that one person would not be in shorts and a t-shirt, and another would have a full uniform, to include LBE and two or three survival kits. Level the playing field, so to speak.

To look at this another way, let's say that you could take your Yarborough Knife (thank you Mr. Harsey and Mr. Reeve), and anything you could fit in the pocket on the sheath.

What would you put in it? Would you be able to survive for 60 days with just those items (and those you could make or obtain with them)?

For those non survival trained personnel lurking on this thread, there are many good survival sites out there which can teach you about not just wilderness survival, but daily and urban survicval as well. One of my favorite survival websites is http://www.equippedtosurvive.com/ though they do tend to get heavily into air crash and sea survival.

They have a new kit I am looking at right now.

TR

QRQ 30 04-28-2004 10:08

OK. I'm going with my premise (nada) but will perhaps use what others choose to bring. My first action would bee three fold, 1), a short recon of the area, assessing what is available while 2) looking for a suitable shelter/camp site and 3) inventorying what I personally have available. We have six months so there is no need to hurry and weaken ourselves.

Surgicalcric 04-28-2004 10:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
It is quite educational for me and I hope the thread will continue. Thanks to everyone who participates.
I concur fully with RL.

The Reaper 04-28-2004 10:22

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30
OK. I'm going with my premise (nada) but will perhaps use what others choose to bring. My first action would bee three fold, 1), a short recon of the area, assessing what is available while 2) looking for a suitable shelter/camp site and 3) inventorying what I personally have available. We have six months so there is no need to hurry and weaken ourselves.
Concur.

I like the acronym STOP.

Stop.

Think.

Observe.

Plan.

Unless Jimbo is getting into your OODA Loop (and OODA isn't too far from STOP).

We are not evading or hoofing it out in this scenario.

60 days, not six months, unless you are enjoying the vacation.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP) 04-28-2004 11:03

TR,
The Zippo was just a comment but has a basis for use. After you run out of lighter fluid you still have the ability to create a spark with the wheel and striker. But there are many ways to create a flame that could exhaust this forum and it really depends on what else you can find. Sorry if I sounded like I was urinating on your camp fire, that was not my intention.

I think the initial assessment should drive the effort. As QRQ30 points out we have time and we do not want to expend a whole lot of energy without having established the means to obtain chow to replenish it.

I break survival down into physical needs of shelter, fire, water and food as mentioned before. For me I can satisfy all those requirements with a good knife, some 550 cord, fire starter of some sort (matches, lighter, improvised bow and drill, commercial metal match, etc). Water is only a problem in that you have to make sure it is not contaminated. This will requiring obtaining a container of some sort to boil it (and there is nothing like an old canteen cup for that) or obtaining it from plants (which will require a rudimentary knowledge of those in the area that you can use), building a solar still , or collecting rainfall and dew. Shelter is easy but requires a lot of work to use natural material and for that a simple poncho would fill the bill for most situations. Food is limited only by your patience, sqeamishness, and knowledge of the flora and fauna of the area.

For those not used to living in the woods there are other problems which may or may not be overcome depending on the person. These are basically dealing with fear, anxiety, pain, injury, illness, effects of cold and heat extremes, thrist, hunger, fatique, sleep deprivation, loneliness and isolation. Most of this can be handled by good training ahead of time.

Besides building your kit, your actions in a survival situation are also important. Personal hygiene, establishing a routine, maintainng a signalling system that functions in both daylight and darkness, maintaining (if possible) a log will also contribute to your survival and recovery.

Jack Moroney-ducking, weaving and waiting for incoming.

NousDefionsDoc 04-28-2004 11:32

Tools
Fire starter
Knife/Multi-tool
550 cord

Nice to have
Canteen
Signal mirror
Panel
Purification tablets

Priorities
STOP - I like that one as well
Shelter
Water
Food will move up the list Day 2-3

Essential tasks
Recon area - looking for best area for shelter, best area for signals, a pot to boil my water, a tarp or plastic, flora and fauna for food, etc.
Build the shelter before it gets dark
Prepare water for drinking
Set up my signal for the searchers
Start thinking about food - it may take 2-3 days

The Reaper 04-28-2004 12:12

What is the rough rule of thumb for survival priorities?

5 minutes without O2
5 days without water
5 weeks without food

Agree about slipping the food procurement out on the spectrum, and with the lists of priorities so far.

Not going to freeze, but it is going to be chilly at night. Find a good sheltered area for the camp, not too far from the water or wood source.

I really miss the old M1 steel helmet when it comes to boiling water. Not advised for the K-Pot. You can use tabs, bleach, iodine, a filter, or boiling, some kits even include heavy aluminum foil for an expedient boiling container. Field recovered soda bottles or plastic bags will make good storage containers. Condoms can be used, but I would stick with sealed plain ones.

The best thing about survival training is sticking that little fact in the back of your brain that while it might suck, you really can do it, and do it well, if you had to.

The Zippo is good, I grew up with them, recall my Grandfather keeping several spare flints in the bottom of his, and occasionally filling it from a gas can or a Mason Jar, but it is a bit bulky compared to a Spark-Lite or BIC.

I am thinking about ordering a couple of the ETS Pocket Survival Kits, for the components, if nothing else:

Spark-Lite Firestarter - current U.S. military issue, waterproof, useable one-handed, over 1000 sparkings in tests

4 Spark-Lite Tinder-Quik - current U.S. military issue, waterproof, wax impregnated cotton tinder in zip-top plastic bag, each burns 2-3 minutes

Fox-40 Rescue Howler Survival Whistle - designed exclusively for this kit, triple frequency, exceeds U.S. Coast Guard and SOLAS specifications, bright yellow with dual mode lanyard hole

Rescue Flash Signal Mirror, 2 x 3 inches (5 x 7.6 cm) Lexan polycarbonate with mil-spec style retro-reflective aiming aid for one-handed use, instructions on back, protective cover to prevent scratches while stored in the kit, lanyard hole.

20mm Survival Compass - liquid damped with groove to accept an improvised lanyard ring

Duct Tape - 26 inches x 2 inches (66 x 5 cm), rolled around plastic mandrel, repairs, first aid, the ultimate repair and improvisation component, uses limited only by your imagination

Stainless Steel Utility Wire - 6 ft. of .020 inch (1.83 m x 0.5 mm) mil-spec grade, stronger than brass, won't get brittle in frigid cold, multiple uses

Braided Nylon Cord - 10 ft. (3 m) 150+ lb. (68+ kg) test, won't unravel, shelter building, repairs and much more

#69 Black Nylon Thread - 50 ft. (15.2 m), 10.5 lb. (4.8 kg) test, repairs, fishing line, light duty lashing and much more

Fishing Kit - 4 x medium Fish Hooks, 2 x Split Shot and 1 x Snap Swivel, in a clear plastic vial with cap.

Heavy Duty Sewing Needle - will penetrate heavy materials, easy to grip, large eye for easy threading

4 Safety Pins - repairs, secure items to prevent loss and much more

Heavy Duty Aluminum Foil - 3 sq. ft. (0.9 sq. m), make container to boil water, reflect fire heat and much more

#2 Pencil and Waterproof Notepaper - 2 pieces 2.125 x 3.667 inches (5.4 x 9.3 cm), leave notes, memory aid, keep log

#24 Scalpel Blade - stainless steel, in sealed foil packaging, more functional than a single-edged razor blade

Kit Specific Illustrated Survival Instructions - authored by Doug Ritter, 33 illustrations, on waterproof paper, detailed, easy to understand, practical information

Contents List - viewable through pouch back so anyone can see what's inside even if kit's owner can no longer assist, annotated, compliments Survival Instructions, can be used as tinder

Fresnel Lens Magnifier - 2 x 3 inches (5 x 7.6 cm), in protective sleeve, read small type in survival instructions if glasses lost, start fire using sun

Pocketsized Clear Vinyl Pouch - 4 x 5 inches (10.2 x 12.7 cm), 4 x 3.25 inches (10.2 x 8.3 cm) with top folded over, waterproof zip-top closure, lanyard hole, it really does fit in your pocket.

Total Weight: 3.9 oz (111 g)


Add a knife/machete/axe, a mini-flashlight, water purification, a minimal 1st aid kit, and a sharpener for the blade, we could be onto something.

Now what about you non-SF guys I see lurking in here. Have you ever been out camping for a few days? Got anything to add or ask?

Mr. Harsey, a knife/machete/axe recommendation for extended survival?

Thanks for the contributions guys, I knew we could count on you. :D

TR

NousDefionsDoc 04-28-2004 12:25

What is the rough rule of thumb for survival priorities?

5 minutes without O2
5 days without water
5 weeks without food

LOL - you stuck me out here for 60 days with nothing else to do, I'm going to get as comfortable as I can. Besides, I don't like waiting until it becomes an emergency. Sometimes it can take weeks for those nets and snares to work. Roger the steel pot, good tool that one.

Bill Harsey 04-28-2004 12:38

Any knife beats no knife at all. That's the greatest difference between knives. If I was in North American wooded lands I might consider a small axe, back pack size. Some machetes are too light for chopping down small trees but it can certainly be done. machetes come in many lengths and weights. I do not know what is currently on the market. Most game animals are difficult to open and make into chewable food without a knife. In north country we might get lucky and find a cougar or bear killed deer covered with sticks but I wouldn't want to have to depend on that. This could also result in some ownership issues. Rocks can be broken with other rocks for a crude edge that can get an animal open. Some areas may be devoid of any usable stone. I'll have a look around at machetes and see what's available. A stout machete can also do the work of a knife by choking up on the blade. I know that machetes can be used to build entire structures with furniture in some locations.

Sacamuelas 04-28-2004 12:43

I say drop these three..add 1 instead
 
Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper

1.Stainless Steel Utility Wire - 6 ft. of .020 inch (1.83 m x 0.5 mm) mil-spec grade, stronger than brass, won't get brittle in frigid cold, multiple uses

2.Braided Nylon Cord - 10 ft. (3 m) 150+ lb. (68+ kg) test, won't unravel, shelter building, repairs and much more

3.#69 Black Nylon Thread - 50 ft. (15.2 m), 10.5 lb. (4.8 kg) test, repairs, fishing line, light duty lashing and much more

***Fresnel Lens Magnifier - 2 x 3 inches (5 x 7.6 cm), in protective sleeve, read small type in survival instructions if glasses lost, start fire using sun

TR


I would suggest that a very small, yet lengthy spool of high test strength "spider wire" brand fishing line would perform every one of the tasks listed for the suggested items 1-3. It(100yrds or so) would also fit into the same size container as the small circular spools of dental floss( approx 1" diameter).

It is easy to tie firm knots, incredibly strong for its diameter, cheap, is made in dk. green matte finish, extremely water/weather/UV resistant. Thoughts?

As to the last item above, I think I will leave that one alone. LOL

QRQ 30 04-28-2004 12:50

Is that all.? :D

Air.177 04-28-2004 13:01

Being an advocate of overkill and redundancy, I don't think that I can contribute much if anything to this Minimalist survival thread. It is however, Highly interesting. Thanks to all contributors.

Blake-Department of Redundancy Department

The Reaper 04-28-2004 13:23

Re: I say drop these three..add 1 instead
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I would suggest that a very small, yet lengthy spool of high test strength "spider wire" brand fishing line would perform every one of the tasks listed for the suggested items 1-3. It(100yrds or so) would also fit into the same size container as the small circular spools of dental floss( approx 1" diameter).

It is easy to tie firm knots, incredibly strong for its diameter, cheap, is made in dk. green matte finish, extremely water/weather/UV resistant. Thoughts?

As to the last item above, I think I will leave that one alone. LOL

One of the best things about survival gear is items with multi-purpose capabilities, like the duct tape. Too bad there is no WD-40 in it.

I recently asked my wife to look for dental floss, wrapped for travel around a flat piece of cardboard for inclusion in a kit. She asked if dental hygiene was really that important in a survival situation. I told her that I could use it for that, or I could sew with it, to include emergency suturing, use it to make certain types of snares, tie small knots and lashings, weave into heavier cordage, use as fishing line, etc. She looked at me like I was crazy, and asked why I didn't just get the correct items which would work better for the job. I explained that the kit would be too big and heavy to be of much use, and that none of the purpose designed items would do all of the other jobs as well as the floss.

Spiderwire would not replace the wire for snares, it needs to be stiff, and able to be bent and recovered.

It also would not work well to replace braided nylon cord, where you need something of a larger diameter and strength. For example, you could tie the braided nylon to a tree and hang from it by your hands if you had to. I don't think you want to try that with Spider Wire, even if it was strong enough. I MIGHT replace it with 550 cord, if I could pack an equivalent lenght as tightly.

Having said all of that, I am intrigued, however, about replacing the thread with it. If woven into a larger diameter cord, the cotton thread could be used as a wick. If the Spider Wire could do everything else the thread could do, including sewing and suturing, it might be worth a swap. May have to get some to experiment with.

Thanks, Doc!

Some of the items in the kit could be dropped, if unnecessary.

Early man lived with just a sharp edge, and a fire maker, and made everything else from raw materials. Not sure I want to be that austere though, but again, it is good to know that it can be done, and how to do it.

TR

Roguish Lawyer 04-28-2004 13:29

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
Now what about you non-SF guys I see lurking in here. Have you ever been out camping for a few days? Got anything to add or ask?
Yes on camping. Nothing to add. Would be interested in more on the details on shelter and food (I think water already has been covered). Anyone want to talk about things like the many uses of 550 cord or how to catch fish without monofilament line and hook?

QRQ 30 04-28-2004 13:30

As long as we are going to be wusses and make a kit I stronglly recomment a "Space Blanket".:lifter

Sacamuelas 04-28-2004 13:40

Re: Re: I say drop these three..add 1 instead
 
Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
I recently asked my wife to look for dental floss, wrapped for travel around a flat piece of cardboard for inclusion in a kit.
TR

TR-
They make dental floss "credit cards" that hold fifty yards of floss. They are standard credit card dimensions, except it is four credit cards thick verses one. You might want to check into that. ALL the major dental supply/gadget companies sell them. I did a quick google and got this example...
http://gifts4exec.com/Item/CC-50.htm

Now, you modify it by changing out the floss with spider wire... instant survival thread in a handy little/storable package. :cool:

I am sure I have some of those floss packets around the office, I think I will go experiment a little.

The Reaper 04-28-2004 13:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Yes on camping. Nothing to add. Would be interested in more on the details on shelter and food (I think water already has been covered). Anyone want to talk about things like the many uses of 550 cord or how to catch fish without monofilament line and hook?
With 550 cord, you get a woven outer shell, like a kermantle rope, and multiple interior strands which are not woven. You burn the end and the inner strands are encased securely. Snip off the end, and a dozen or so threads are exposed which can be pulled out, cut off, and used for whatever purpose you need small cordage for. It is great as a unit for normal heavy cord applications, or the strands can be used for lashings, snares, nets, or whatever task you have at hand. The inner strands will even unravel into smaller strands, if needed. It has a couple of deficiencies, as it is nylon, it does not hold all knots well, and it will melt or burn at a fairly low exposure to heat.

Unless something else if found available, given no man made materials like a poncho or shelter half, initial shelter construction will almost certainly be a lean to, improved by further enclosure as time permits.

Food should be available from foraging, fishing, netting, snares, traps, or possibly slingshot, bow and arrow, or spear, depending on your access to materials, construction and application skills, and availability of game in your area. Laws of conservation must be considered though, expending large numbers of calories to obtain small sources of food is counter productive and should be avoided.

Fish can be netted, caught on manufactured, improvised, or homemade hooks (bone, wood, etc., line of twine, cord, snare wire, floss, etc.), trapped, shocked, stunned, clubbed, poisoned, grabbed, speared, etc.

Additional recommendations?

TR

lrd 04-28-2004 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Yes on camping. Nothing to add. Would be interested in more on the details on shelter and food (I think water already has been covered). Anyone want to talk about things like the many uses of 550 cord or how to catch fish without monofilament line and hook?
This is how my husband and his brothers learned to fish from their uncle -- no line or hook needed.

I wouldn't recommend it, though.

lrd 04-28-2004 13:54

Question: if you are going to stay there until picked up, how important is it to know where you are? Is a compass important to have or not?

The Reaper 04-28-2004 14:04

There are other ways to determine cardinal direction.

It was packed in the kit. As I stated, items could be added or deleted, as needed.

It would be much more important if moving.

It occurs to me that having a watch could be handy as well.

TR

Sacamuelas 04-28-2004 14:05

Quote:

Originally posted by lrd
This is how my husband and his brothers learned to fish from their uncle -- no line or hook needed.

I wouldn't recommend it, though.

You friggin Yankees are hilarious... THAT is called Catfish "Grabbin" not noodling or whatever the wussy sounding title was in that link. LOL

Sorry for the hijack... back to thread.

lrd 04-28-2004 14:33

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
There are other ways to determine cardinal direction.

It was packed in the kit. As I stated, items could be added or deleted, as needed.

It would be much more important if moving.

It occurs to me that having a watch could be handy as well.

TR

I was thinking about a watch when I asked about the compass. My son's watch has a compass, but mine doesn't. It would be one less thing to carry if your watch had a compass...

How does wire fishing line compare to stainless steel utility wire?

QRQ 30 04-28-2004 14:53

Darn!!
 
I was hoping for a forum on "HOW to survive" rather than "What to pack". In survival training in the 10th in Germany they put us out in teams with the clothes on our backs, a canteen of water, ID cards and Dog Tags - PUNKT!! Brook Shields and Tom Hanks did it. I volunteer to have Brook Shields as my partner.

BTW: I don't think "noodling" is a yankee term. I've seen it on TV and believe it was in Missouri and Arkansas.

Razor 04-28-2004 15:40

Just found this thread; great discussion, TR.

Excuse me a momentary tangent--TR, I agree that the AMK PSP is a great 'starter kit' for a personal survival kit, especially when you compare the unit cost to the retail prices of the individual items. Heck, the Spark-Lite alone runs close to $10 from most sources. Did you find the STOP acronym on the downloadable instruction sheet from the site? Its much easier to remember than SURVIVAL, that's for sure.

Ok, back to the task at hand. For this scenario, I'm going to assume that my stay is set at no less than 60 days, and I don't have any requirements to signal to rescue crews (hence allowing me to focus on staying warm, healthy and fed).

Like most others, my 'Need' (bare minimum) list would include a knife with at least a 3" blade (a 5-7" fixed blade would be better), 15' of 550 cord (I really suck at making my own cordage), a full-sized Bic lighter (making a firebow or friction trench is a real PITA, and not very quick), and a couple square feet of aluminum foil or a sealable baby bottle liner--Gerber makes a good one (in case there's no trash around to carry water). Understand that I'm not saying I'm another Tom Brown; this is the minimum gear I'd want on me in this situation to survive. I'd want much more (soon to come) to be relatively comfortable.

As has already been stated, first task is to scout around a bit to find a good place to build a shelter (initially a deadfall shelter or lean-to), find a water source (preferably a stream or pond/lake) and gather fuel for my fire and other handy materials I could use later for tools.

Next, I'd start on my shelter to at least have something if I have to get out of the rain/wind, and to help me conserve heat when night falls. The easiest to build would be a deadfall lean-to, but this requires finding a long, stout piece of deadfall and a stump or other prop at least a couple feet high. Lean one end of the pole on the prop, then lean sturdy sticks against the center pole on either side at an angle, creating a sort of pup-tent, with the center pole being the top crease in the tent. You can then layer evergreen boughs on the framework, then soil on the boughs, then more boughs or leaves to add a water repellent layer to the outside. If there's no large deadfall, I can build a standard lean-to, using some of my 550 cord to build the frame.

Once the initial shelter work is done, I'd gather up more fire fuel and stockpile it near the shelter. Once I had multiple armloads set aside, I'd dig out a small 3-sided indentation in the ground (clearing away other flammables) a few feet in front of my shelter and start a slow-burning, log cabin style fire to eventually create a bed of coals. After the fire is burning healthy, I'd start work on a small reflector wall behind it to direct the heat toward the opening of my shelter. Since the soil is sandy, I'd build the wall frame from sticks and boughs, then cover it with sandy soil to help keep it from catching on fire. Later, I can find clay to cover the soil to make the reflector even more fire-resistant.

If I was successful in finding some discarded soda or food cans, I have a good container to go collect some water and filter/boil/store it. If not, I can use the bottle liner I brought to collect water and the foil to shape a bowl liner to boil it in. IIRC, cryptosporidium and giardia is not uncommon in this area, and unless you're carrying some Katadyn Micropur tabs, boiling is the only way to surely kill the cysts. Of course, you want to initially collect the cleanest water you can, and preferably from a running water source so there are no pools for bugs to nest. If I did find some discarded trash, I can use a plastic bottle to carry water and to build a multi-layer filter. To make the filter, turn the bottle upside-down and cut the bottom off. Put a matting of pine straw in nearest the neck (to keep the next layer from falling out), then add a layer of charcoal from your fire pit (to help remove some of the little nasties), then a layer of clean (no debris) sand (to filter out small chunks of organic material), then a layer of pebbles (to remove larger chunks of stuff), then another layer of pine straw (to remove the large initial chunks of stuff). To use, place your filtered water container under the neck, and pour your unfiltered water into the cut open bottom of the filter. This will remove most of the organic crud, but you'll still have to boil or treat the filtered water to kill the microscopic bugs.

If I was able to get all this done before nightfall, I'd collect some more firewood, and a pile of dry leaves that I would use to stuff inside my pants and BDU coat (check for critters first) for additional insulation during the night. I would avoid moving around at night to reduce the chance of 1) getting lost, 2) getting hurt by falling down or getting a stick in the eye, and 3) getting cold. I'd loosen my bootlaces to improve circulation to my feet, but avoid taking my boots off as they provide protection from wandering beasties and if I need to move quickly during the night I want my boots on.

Maple Flag 04-28-2004 16:16

My approach and kit
 
Good thread, and good replies. The basic principles of wilderness survival are there in various forms. I like the concept of 5 minutes without O2, 5 Days without water, etc. but also agree that this should not be interpreted to mean that you want to act NOW, not get into the mindset of waiting for the emrgency to come to you.

My activity list is similar:

-Day 1

Before I go to sleep the first night, I will scout a good location and build a debris shelter insulated enough to get me though the night.

Once done that, and again, before I sleep, I will get a fire started, and put good fire wood in the shelter to dry for future use.

Once done that, I will seek to purify water, but this can wait if needed for the next morning.

-Day 2

Purify available water on hand by means available.

Set out distress markers, signals, etc. Plan for large floating distress marker in lake if one is nearby.

Set up rain water collection facilities.

Plan foraging, trapping, and hunting. Test/consume food readily available in immediate area.

Continue to collect fire wood supplies in excess of planned daily burn. Include readily available smoke signal materials if aircraft should be heard in the area.

-Day 3

Implement foraging, trapping, and hunting plan, including constructing tools, traps, etc. In the process, explore the area looking for means or rescue, as well as means of survival.

Enhance and fortify shelter.

-Day 4 and on

Review foraging, trapping, and hunting plan from lessons learned the previous day.

Continue to collect/construct tools, markers, other assets while enhancing survival potential in other ways as needed.


My kit (real life) that helps to support the above activities:

1 L Nalgen bottle, containing inside:
Chlorine Water Purification drops
Day/Night signal mirror
Survival reflective blanket
Cordage
Folding knife
Wire Saw
Lighters (2)
Matches
Magnesium fire starter
Soup and Sugar Cubes (looking to improve here)
Fishing Kit
Sewing kit
Button compass

I'm looking to replace the Nalgene bottle with a metal container with a screw lid that I can boil water in.

I also carry in my ruck a large 300 weight fleece blanket in day glow orange (keeps me warm at night, even if damp, and makes a great hi-vis marker panel during the day). It weighs little, but is a bit bulky.

NousDefionsDoc 04-28-2004 16:48

Reaper,
That pocket survival kit looks pretty good to me too. Good starter kit. Need to change the container and add some stuff, but not bad at all. Been nice to have back in the day at MACKALL.

Bill Harsey 04-28-2004 19:05

Hey c'mon guys, I gave you all a great survival clue back there, stealing food from other critters. You southern boys can wade in up to the family jewells in your water. Come on up here and show me how that's done would you? You can use that glacier just up stream to sun dry yourself on after your stuffed with trout.

The Reaper 04-28-2004 19:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Hey c'mon guys, I gave you all a great survival clue back there, stealing food from other critters. You southern boys can wade in up to the family jewells in your water. Come on up here and show me how that's done would you? You can use that glacier just up stream to sun dry yourself on after your stuffed with trout.
Bill:

I know, where you come from, eatin' roadkill is an accepted and necessary practice, but my family is trying to leave that chapter in our past.

'Bout July, that glacier will sound pretty good!

TR

Sire24657 05-06-2004 13:49

Interesting thread; keep it going!!

When I begin to take my son into the deep woods in N. CA., these are things I hope to make him think about if something were to happen.

Keep it up, you pros!!

Thanks,

Sire

Razor 05-10-2004 13:42

Ok, time to try to breathe some life back into this thread.

Last post of mine, I listed the bare essentials I would want to have in the survival situation that TR proposed. Now, I'd like to expand the discussion a bit further and discuss additional equipment I'd carry to make life in that situation a bit more bearable.

If I could bring a small pocket/pouch survival kit, I'd probably bring along the kit I already have assembled and take with me when I'm going anywhere outside my normal commute. The kit is as follows:

Inside a Witz "Keep It Safe" waterproof, buoyant case:
  • 5 windproof/waterproof matches in sealed plastic pouch
  • Spark-Lite flint stiker
  • 4 Coughlin's wax-impregnated fire starters
  • 2 "trick" birthday candles
  • Wire saw w/ swivels and split rings
  • 1 Victorinox slim-handled 2-blade pocketknife
  • 2 X-acto knife blades
  • 15 iodine water purification tablets
  • 1 Gerber sealing baby bottle liner
  • 5 sqft of heavy-duty aluminum foil
  • 10 ft of 3ft wide duct tape
  • Luminous Brunton button compass
  • White Photon III LED light
  • 2 6ft coils of brass snare wire
  • 3 sizes of heavy-duty needles
  • 2 large safety pins
  • 2 small safety pins
  • 30ft of monofilament fishing line
  • 6 fishing hooks of various sizes
  • 4 fishing swivels
  • 6 split-shot BB sinkers
  • 1 large fishhook/gaff
  • 3 butterfly closures
  • 3 1" x 3" adhesive bandages
  • 1 0.9g packet of triple antibiotic ointment
  • 2 Betadine 10% providone-iodine swabs
  • 2 2"x3" pieces of Rite-In-The-Rain paper
  • 1 pencil stub
  • 1 2"x3" Itoya magnifying lens
  • AMK Pocket Survival Pak laminated instruction sheet

The above kit can be carried alone, or combined in the pouch below:

Inside a Paraclete Small (5"x5"x2") GP pouch:
  • Small survival kit from above
  • Camillus CUDA EDC folding knife (changing to a Spyderco Endura)
  • Silva Landmark compass
  • 35mm film canister with windproof/waterproof matches, tinders and striker
  • Bic lighter
  • Boy Scout flint and striker
  • Red Photon II LED light
  • Dorcy AAA LED flashlight
  • Fox 40 whistle
  • 50ft of 550 cord
  • Carabiner
  • Bright orange cravat
  • 3 mini chemlites

Now, if I could carry an assault-sized ruck with me, I'd probably want to add:
  • Waterproof shell jacket/pants
  • 5-button wool army sweater
  • Change of BDUs
  • Watch cap
  • 5 pair of socks
  • Medicated powder (like Goldbond)
  • Leather glove shells with two pair wool inserts
  • Folding saw
  • More lighters
  • Mil-grade, tritium lensatic compass
  • Camp ax with at least a 24" handle
  • Waterproof tarp
  • 200' 550 cord
  • Larger LED flashlight
  • Extra AA and 123 batteries
  • 1L Nalgene bottle w/ nested cup (Maple Flag, here's your solution for a cooking container)
  • 2 carabiners
  • More comprehensive medical kit to include antibiotics, several sizes of bulky dressings, elastic wraps, bandaids, tape, moleskin, a bottle of Betadine, a few tubes of Bacitracin, NSAIDs, anti-diarrhea meds, antacids, antihistamines, antimicrobial sanitizers, sutures & local pain meds, a SAM splint, several cravats, a bottle or two of multi-vitamins, a hemostat or two, and scalpel with several blades (medics/docs, what else should I have on-hand for self-Tx?)

Anyone else have ideas to share?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:51.


Copyright 2004-2019 by Professional Soldiers