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groundup 07-24-2007 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor
The series "Survivorman" was, IMO, a far better survival primer than "Man vs. Wild". Its wasn't as exciting, and the host didn't do crazy, attention-grabbing things like Grylls, but it was more realistic. Many of the techniques Grylls shows look cool, but involve far too much risk than one should take in a survival situation (unless that is the only option). Climbing a rope hand-over-hand 100ft up a ravine, eating raw zebra meat, and sneaking up to African predators to get a look at them just doesn't make sense when faced with other, safer choices.

A bunch of my friends love that show (Man vs Wild). Every time I hear them talking about it, I have to make mention of all the stupid things he does. Like jumping in to a freezing river or climbing trees. What ever happened to stay dry, stay warm, stay safe? Don't ration water or food - ration work. This guy teaches people to be stupid in survival situations.

cobra22 07-24-2007 23:58

I'd have a Leatherman, flint, canteen, small knife sharpener, a handlheld wire saw, block of magnesium, 20 feet of 550 cord, iodine tabs, strong fixed blade knife, signal mirror, small bottle of salt tabs, alcohol wipes, neosporin, medical tape, and several 2x2's. All items currently in my survival kit.

Priorities of work would be;

1. Find potable water source preferably stream of some sort and set up camp a short distance from there.
2. Set traps, deadfalls and snares
3. Collect fire wood, kindling, and build fire
4. Build shelter
5. Forage for edible berries, roots and such.
6. Check traps
7. Continue to improve shelter
8. Build a smoker to preserve meats
9. set up a trot line
10. Build big game hunting instruments, spears, Bow and arrows.
11. Once I catch big game after I dress it and skin it I would smoke the meat and start making a wrap to keep me warm. A long process. The activity and fire would have to do until then.

Of course The best laid plans.... This is alot eaiser said than done but in any case it would be absolutely miserable until my AO was completely established. After about two weeks though it should fairly comfortable. I have never been put to the test but my Dad who thought the russians were coming when I was a kid taught me how to do all these tasks. Never done them all together, and the fur I did was a rabbit and that took forver.

jatx 07-25-2007 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobra22
Priorities of work would be;

How about figuring out your location and doing an inventory of gear that is on hand or can be scavenged? Be sure to stop and think first! Unless you are E&Eing, time is probably on your side...

The Reaper 07-25-2007 10:25

cobra:

jatx has some good points.

Checklists are fine, but I wouldn't get too wrapped around them. You have to remain flexible, and prioritize according to METT-T. The priorities in Alaska in February are going to be vastly different from Panama in July.

Review the basics: air, shelter (including fire for warmth), water, food. In a benign environment, shelter may fall to last place. In a harsh or extreme environment, it will likely be near the top.

As far as your list goes, you need a container to boil water or cook in. A canteen cup (or one of the Titanium version, if you are an ultralight guy) is a good, compact solution.

I would take salt over salt tabs. If you have a MIOX water purifier, it takes salt and a battery to work, but you can use the salt on your food as well. A bouillion cube or two can be great, or if you must be very compact, the seasoning packet out of a 15 cent pack of ramen is good. A tea bag or intstant coffee packet might be nice.

You need a compact light source, unless it never gets dark where you are. The Photons are the best small lighting solution, and are among the most flexible.

Have you actually lit a fire with your flint before? If not, you might want to try it in a non-survival situation. An actual flame is a vastly superior fire starter than a shower of tiny, weak sparks, unless you have gasoline, or powder.

I would carry more than 20' of 550 cord. I use it for boot laces as well. If you need small cordage, you can gut it and still lace up your boots with the sheath. BTW, for those who have never used 550 cord before, the internal strands are slippery and do not hold knots well. A quick pass with the BIC or over a hot coal is a good way to lock them permanently.

I would want a ZipLoc, condom, or trash bag for waterproofing and water storage. Nothing worse than having to spend 30 minutes and hundreds of calories every time your 1 qt. canteen runs dry, and it tends to dehydrate you as well, as you opt to drink less to avoid the trek. The trash bag is quickly a good rain poncho, ground cloth, improvised sleeping bag, or can be split open to improve the watertightness of your shelter. If you have food, and no place to secure it, it will spoil faster and will quickly be bug infested. Condoms need to be the plain variety.

If I were taking any tape, it would be 100 mph tape. It will work longer holding a bandage, and has a lot of other uses as well. You can wrap things in it and peel it off as needed. A couple of wraps around a canteen is a few feet of good cheap insurance.

You will need wire for snares and repairs, and hooks for fishing. A tiny bottle of hooks and some monofilament line (also good for lashings), wrapped in snare wire is an excellent way to secure a steady food source in the wild. Trust me, making traps, snares, and hooks is no way as easy, or effective, as making a noose snare out of wire or just tying a hook onto a few feet of mono line.

People who have never lived in the woods much seem to think that there a a plentiful supply of large stupid herbivores which are as easy to take with a spear or a knife as a centerfire rifle.

The truth is:

- Large game is much rarer in the wild than small game.
- Large game is more cautious and aware, or they would not have grown up to that size. Think Darwin.
- It takes longer and more resources to grow, so you can quickly exhaust an area of its big game. One middle-aged buck may have several square miles of territory.
- Large game will be harder to kill, and even more difficult to stop. Even if you can hit one with a homemade arrow from a homemade bow, he will likely run far away, and will likely not be killed by it.
- A wounded large animal, even a herbivore, can hurt badly you trying to escape.
- It will be difficult to hang, gut, and skin large game in a survival situation. So many people take their kill to processing plants that I think most are unaware of just how difficult it is to prepare. It looks much easier on TV.
- Without cooling, salt, or other preservation means, in the summer, you may have 24 hours or less to consume the game before it goes bad. How will you consume 200 lbs. of venison in 24 hours? Hard to smoke that much meat, that quickly in the wild.
- Large carnivores and scavengers can sense a large kill for many miles and you may attract unwanted visitors. What do you do with the 100 pounds of guts, bones, and hide near your camp site? Bears will come after game that others have killed, they can smell much better than a bloodhound. Unless you are ready for that, think about it. You may not want the constant stream of buzzards over your kill site either.

- Small game, like squirrels, rabbits, fish, etc., on the other hand are plentiful and are near the bottom of the food chain. They exist primarily for other animals to eat. For that reason, they reproduce, well, like rabbits and are hard to eliminate completely, as farmers can attest.
- They are not too smart and are easy to catch with a variety of traps and snares.
- You can run a trap line and unless you are a serious eater or in a poor environment, not depopulate the area.
- They are easy to kill if trapped.
- They are well, meal sized. Much less waste. And the small amount of waste can be easily disposed of, or used as bait for other, larger creatures.
- They are portable. You can easily tie or cage a live rabbit for dining later. You can build a fish corral. Deer and other large animals do not like that.
- They are easy to prepare, I can gut and skin a rabbit in a couple of minutes.
- If you catch two that you do not need, you can quickly become a rancher. Deer and other large game don't work that way.

Best of luck, hope this helps.

Wolverines!!

7624U 07-25-2007 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper
Wolverines!!

I advise you don't try to hunt,kill and eat one of these :D

The Reaper 07-25-2007 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7624U
I advise you don't try to hunt,kill and eat one of these :D

Red Dawn reference based on cobra's comments about his Dad.

Good movie.

TR

Team Sergeant 07-25-2007 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobra22
I'd have a Leatherman, flint, canteen, small knife sharpener, a handlheld wire saw, block of magnesium, 20 feet of 550 cord, iodine tabs, strong fixed blade knife, signal mirror, small bottle of salt tabs, alcohol wipes, neosporin, medical tape, and several 2x2's. All items currently in my survival kit.

Priorities of work would be;

1. Find potable water source preferably stream of some sort and set up camp a short distance from there.
2. Set traps, deadfalls and snares
3. Collect fire wood, kindling, and build fire
4. Build shelter
5. Forage for edible berries, roots and such.
6. Check traps
7. Continue to improve shelter
8. Build a smoker to preserve meats
9. set up a trot line
10. Build big game hunting instruments, spears, Bow and arrows.
11. Once I catch big game after I dress it and skin it I would smoke the meat and start making a wrap to keep me warm. A long process. The activity and fire would have to do until then.

Of course The best laid plans.... This is alot eaiser said than done but in any case it would be absolutely miserable until my AO was completely established. After about two weeks though it should fairly comfortable. I have never been put to the test but my Dad who thought the russians were coming when I was a kid taught me how to do all these tasks. Never done them all together, and the fur I did was a rabbit and that took forver.

A "block of magnesium", nice, next time it's 30 below I want you to shave that block of magnesium and start a fire. Trust me I'd done it.

In its place I'd advise X2 Bic lighters. I carried the same Bic lighter in a survival kit for almost twenty years, still worked when I threw it away.

When the unintelligent tell you that the gas inside the Bic will freeze below -20 (or what ever is the freezing point) tell them you fully intend to place the plastic part in your mouth to warm it and then use it to light your fire.

You should also place the lighter in a strong waterproof case in a survival kit.

TS

jatx 07-25-2007 12:56

You might consider putting together a generic kit like mine, which lurks at the bottom of my assault pack:

Nalgene container wrapped w/ 10 ft. of 100 mph tape. Stored inside:
- Space blanket (shelter & warmth)
- Button compass
- 6x6 swatch of t-shirt material (filtering sediment from water)
- Small med kit w/ bandages, antibiotic ointment, razor blade, OTC analgesics and 4000 mg hydrocodone
- Small sewing kit w/ heavy gauge needle, waxed thread and monofilament
- Bic lighter
- Pocket chainsaw (clearing obstructions, building a shelter)
- Waterproof vial w/ windproof matches
- Hand sanitizer (hygiene and firestarting)
- Signal mirror and whistle
- 2x gallon ziploc bags
- 100 ft 550 cord
- 2 chemlights (1 white, 1 IR) for signaling at night (swing in circle on 550 cord)

These items augment the Leatherman and Photon light on my person, plus the Mioxx purifier also lurking in the bottom of the bag. The items can be transferred to one of the Ziplocs if I need the Nalgene for water treatment/storage. I also carry an empty Nalgene, so that I have one to drink from while water is being treated in the other. Altogether, these items take up about 4" in the bottom of my bag and weight about 5 lbs.

Now that TR has me thinking about snares and fishing, I'm going to see if I can jam some wire and hooks in too! Although a gill net would be really nice...:D

Edited to add: I think I'll just put the wire and hooks under another length of tape on the outside, since space is tight.

The chair is against the wall!

The Reaper 07-25-2007 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by jatx
You might consider putting together a generic kit like mine, which lurks at the bottom of my assault pack:

Nalgene container wrapped w/ 10 ft. of 100 mph tape. Stored inside:
- Space blanket (shelter & warmth)
- Button compass
- 6x6 swatch of t-shirt material (filtering sediment from water)
- Small med kit w/ bandages, antibiotic ointment, razor blade, OTC analgesics and 4000 mg hydrocodone
- Small sewing kit w/ heavy gauge needle, waxed thread and monofilament
- Bic lighter
- Pocket chainsaw (clearing obstructions, building a shelter)
- Waterproof vial w/ windproof matches
- Hand sanitizer (hygiene and firestarting)
- Signal mirror and whistle
- 2x gallon ziploc bags
- 100 ft 550 cord
- 2 chemlights (1 white, 1 IR) for signaling at night (swing in circle on 550 cord)

These items augment the Leatherman and Photon light on my person, plus the Mioxx purifier also lurking in the bottom of the bag. The items can be transferred to one of the Ziplocs if I need the Nalgene for water treatment/storage. I also carry an empty Nalgene, so that I have one to drink from while water is being treated in the other. Altogether, these items take up about 4" in the bottom of my bag and weight about 5 lbs.

Now that TR has me thinking about snares and fishing, I'm going to see if I can jam some wire and hooks in too! Although a gill net would be really nice...:D

Edited to add: I think I'll just put the wire and hooks under another length of tape on the outside, since space is tight.

The chair is against the wall!

jatx:

Not bad.

The t-shirt material is an emergency substitute if you have nothing else. The mesh is really a bit large for proper filtering. For a kit, I would recommend a piece of nylon stocking or a paper coffee filter (limited number of uses , but can be used for tinder when used up and dried out).

4000 mg of Hydrocodone is 400-800 tabs and is a 10-20 day supply. Taken all at once, it contains a lethal dose of Acetominophen. Do you plan to commit suicide, stay high the entire time, deal the Hydrocodone for survival items, drug the wild game, or just get arrested and spend the time in jail?

The ETS site links to the companies that sell the AMK Pocket Survival Pack, which contains most of the smaller items in a really compact format. Add a canteen with cup, a MIOX, a multitool, a lighter, and a couple of bags, and you should be good to go with a basic kit.

You probably also need a box of the small ZipLocs to break out your hundreds of Hydrocodone tabs for resale.

TR

jatx 07-25-2007 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper
The t-shirt material is an emergency substitute if you have nothing else. The mesh is really a bit large for proper filtering. For a kit, I would recommend a piece of nylon stocking or a paper coffee filter (limited number of uses , but can be used for tinder when used up and dried out). TR

That's interesting, because I started out with the paper filters and moved to the fabric because of their tendency to tear after being used a few times. I'll sub the stocking material, which offers the added advantage of being more compact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper
4000 mg of Hydrocodone is 400-800 tabs and is a 10-20 day supply. Taken all at once, it contains a lethal dose of Acetominophen. Do you plan to commit suicide, stay high the entire time, deal the Hydrocodone for survival items, drug the wild game, or just get arrested and spend the time in jail?TR

You get free McDonald's in jail! :D

Seriously, I am looking at the prescription bottle and it says "Vicodin 5/500". I have eight of those halved and jammed into a small pill box. That's enough to take the edge off for 2-3 days following a badly twisted ankle or a Democrat being elected to the White House.

The Reaper 07-25-2007 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jatx
That's interesting, because I started out with the paper filters and moved to the fabric because of their tendency to tear after being used a few times. I'll sub the stocking material, which offers the added advantage of being more compact.

You get free McDonald's in jail! :D

Seriously, I am looking at the prescription bottle and it says "Vicodin 5/500". I have eight of those halved and jammed into a small pill box. That's enough to take the edge off for 2-3 days following a badly twisted ankle or a Democrat being elected to the White House.

What you have is 40mg of Hydrocodone and 4000 mg of acetaminophen. A couple of days worth. I would not have halved them, it makes them break down/age out easier and some of the narcotics have the active ingredient in a tiny pellet form to prevent abuse.

I agree, the stocking is more compact, and reusable after washing, but the t-shirt could be charred and used as tinder. Your call. What you might do is to scoop up some known dirty water like a bird bath or stagnant pond and filter it through your different media into a clean glass to check for particulates. If you don't see any, let it sit for a few days and see what settles out.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP) 07-25-2007 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobra22
Priorities of work would be;.

Actually your first priority should be to access your current situation, especially if you are in hostile territory. Enemy, weather, terrain and your personal condition (as well as those for whom you might be responsible) are going to dictate your priorities of work.

cold1 07-25-2007 14:04

How about a sling shot for small game. Before I had a BB gun a sling shot was my best freind. They dont take up alot of space and ammo is usually plentiful.

As far as making a bow, try reading the "Traditional Bowyers Bible" seris. Great Info.

How would one of the permentant coffee filters be for sediments?

As a technical nugget the freezing point of Isobutane is -229F at atmospheric pressure.

groundup 07-25-2007 20:18

Like has been said - first priority is to assess the situation. First thing in my assessment would be to determine if I could get out of the situation without having to "survive". If I've got comms, why sit in the mountains waiting for someone to realize I am not where I should be? So, I always carry a cellphone and keep it off unless it is an emergency. It doesn't weigh much and if I am lucky enough to get a signal - good for me. If I've got a map, time, and ability (energy and medically able), why sit there? If there are other (friendly) people around, why not ask for some help? There is a difference between surviving and living IMO.

I've used the magnesium starter in a blizzard in the mountains of Harriman State Park in NY because the metal on my lighters kept freezing. I put them under my arm pits to keep the warm, but that gets you cold ;) The magnesium starter is a pain in the ass too. I don't know why, but my buddy had a flare with him and we used that to start a fire :lifter

I start my survival gear prep at my skin. If it is going to be cold outside, I bring clothes that will keep me warm. If it is going to be hot, I bring clothes that will keep me cool. I always try to fit a change in there too. Whether it is hot or cold, being wet sucks. Cotton or wool or synthetic is another question I ask myself.

I pack for the occasion, but there are some things similar in all situations - water, food, and shelter. Always pack enough water for whatever I plan on doing and an emergency supply for what might come up. If I plan on being up there for a decent amount of time and there might be a source of water, I bring a water purifier. I usually bring iodine and salt for those true emergencies. Otherwise, there are many other ways to get water other than from standard sources. Food - depends a lot on what I am doing. If I am all out of MREs (or canned food, steaks, hot dogs, ramen, and beer) there is not much I can do other than hunt or gather. I have started to bring the Survival FM on camping trips so I can see for myself what the pictures are showing in a "safer" environment. Most basic items shelter are the ponchos and rain gear.

I didn't go over those little things, but you don't have to survive on what you have in your pocket. You might be surviving on your ruck. If I am going to have to survive, I want as much as I can. My "oh shit, my ruck is gone" survival kit is packed in a Camelbak with 2 pockets. It has a first aid kit put in to a 5.56 mag pouch with a black cross on it so others know what it is. I put a poncho or other rain gear on the outside. Water inside. There are at least 3 fire starting elements in there - lighter, waterproof matches, and magnesium fire starter with a little swiss army knife attached. I put some cotton balls covered in petroleum jelly in a prescription bottle in there. I have a daisy chained length of 550 cord (I'd say about 50'). If I am not wearing it, I put a Tikka XP headlamp in there. Also a surefire 6P or a mini-mag (no filters on either of those). I have a couple of folding knives I put in there, but they change depending on what I feel like pulling out at the time. I also put something(s) reflective in there like a reflective belt and/or a mirror. Reflective belt is really smart when you are walking around in the dark on a ruck and you are looking for your buddies. I put a pen and a notebook in there. I also put communication equipment in there (cellphone or handheld 2-way). Depending on the climate, depends on the type of gloves but I can't remember ever not having gloves in there. That is all off the top of my head from what I usually use. It changes depending on where I am going and what I am doing, but I think I got the basics.

cobra22 07-25-2007 22:42

Quote:

Actually your first priority should be to access your current situation, especially if you are in hostile territory. Enemy, weather, terrain and your personal condition (as well as those for whom you might be responsible) are going to dictate your priorities of work.
My understanding was that there was no enemy presence, and that I was on my own. Also that I would not move for at least 60 days. Similar to Troop Leading Procedures, Assessing the situation is a second nature thing that comes naturally with my level experience. IT has to be done in order to create a plan to get to your priorities of work. Furthermore I would continue to assess the situation until I was out of the situation. Under the current conditions laid out in the first post, you need to remain for 60 days, regardless of conditions of weather and yourself you have to accomplish certain things IOT survive. Finding water, starting fire, and building shelter IMHO have to be done at a minimum. Regardless of personal, or weather conditions. Otherwise you might not survive. With the conditions being, moderate in the day 70's as low as 40's at night I think those three in that order would be prudent.
If in a combat senario the whole ball game changes.

Quote:

A "block of magnesium", nice, next time it's 30 below I want you to shave that block of magnesium and start a fire. Trust me I'd done it.
Never used it except in fair conditions. Point taken. A lighter would probably be more prudent. I should probably add one to my kit. However as a Murpheys Law contingency I believe a flint, striker and magnesium block could be carried as well, they could start a fire in a pinch and don't take up much space also they weigh next to nothing.
Better to have and not need....;).

Cobra 22


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