View Full Version : German court convicts man for insulting Islam
CPTAUSRET
02-23-2006, 10:38
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/crime_religion_germany_dc_2&printer=1
Hope he sold enough to cover his trial.
rubberneck
02-23-2006, 12:19
I guess the notion of free speech and independent thought no longer exsists in Europe. For all the garbage they heap on us it is ironic that they are sending people to prison for saying non PC things. IIRC an Austrian professor his headed off to jail for stating publically that the Holocuast was a hoax. I would rather put up with guys like Fred "f-ing" Phelps and his vile nonsense than to surrender the most basic liberty. God help Europe.
I forgot the Germans are real sensitive about anything that could be remotely construed as a "hate crime" :rolleyes: Suppressing derogatory comments and "hate speech" and the like is just going to add fuel to the fire ("Look, the government is suppressing us because they know we're right, we're the victims here" works for a lot of extremist groups), not solve the problem. I'm very concerned about this sort of thing happening here, with some of the laws we've had passed in recent years (hate crime legislation). All people have their prejudices, and trying to suppress those things, like all other human desires and tendencies, only makes it worse. It's better that these ideas be made public, so that they can be debated, refuted and discredited in a public forum, instead of being suppressed and allowed to run unchecked "out of sight, out of mind".
Bob1984, I agree.
Warning, rant follows...
Europe has problems with identification, economic outlook, immigration, misrepresentation of mainstream news (terrorist transports, terrorist detainment centers, relationships with Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Kyoto come to mind). The problem is not that people in general hate America, it's that they don't understand what you're up to in a war seemingly ill-defined, and the foundations and consequences of freedom, and how you've chosen a slightly different path.
Europe is trying to convince itself that it is on the right path and politicos do that partly by saying what they are not, combined with what they want to be ("We want to be a counter-weight for the US on some issues. We do it because we're different. We want to be better than the US. We're not there yet and our system hasn't proven its worth yet, but if we say it enough times, maybe we will be.")
What Europe needs to do is to restructure its institutions, get grass root identification on a few set principles, not of specific ideology, but of human liberty and dignity (and that does not mean social security and right to internet for everyone - that's a state level value). In part, the EU constitution was an attempt to position the foundation for unity on top of the people. There is no element of natural movement that would later unite the people. The constitution should have acknowledged the "invisible hand"'s (used in a wide sense) peculiarities for Europe. What you get otherwise is an increasing alienation between elements of society.
Earlier I thought Europe was not too far behind USA economically, just reasonably. Reading statistics last week: the gap is tremendous. Some groups are already starting to raise awareness and advocate changes. It must change.
I foresee a Europe either with liberties cut much further and breaking itself down, with a strong organized criminal sector, or a Europe slowly adapting, uniting, and opening up again, or, a relative demise that gets broken only when something truly horrifying happens.
I believe in a mix of the last two, held back by politicos. (EDITed to add: Or all three... mostly because of the politicos and organized crime)
Martin
Peregrino
02-23-2006, 22:12
America doesn't need to worry about Europe anymore. Within the next 40-50 years it will finish imploding and the Islamists will be the majority. The only unifying force in Europe now is anti-US sentiment. So long as relativism is the "religion du jour", nobody is willing to decry obvious evil, and tribal interests reign supreme Europe is doomed. I for one will be sorry to see that happen, after all the roots of everything we (America) have accomplished started somewhere in Europe. What we need to do is salvage the best of what's left in Europe before the ongoing social and political decay destroys it all. Offer those individuals yearning for freedom and opportunity the chance to immigrate here and contribute to America - something in the best traditions of our own ancestors. We should revamp our immigration policies to encourage quality Northern Europeans to emigrate to the States. The hard part will be sorting the socialists, apologists, tribalists, etc. out of the mix and leaving them to deal with the inevitable results of their current politics/policies. (In other words to submit to the Islamists.) I really wish this were more "tongue in cheek" but I honestly feel Europe is going to tank - probably in our lifetimes. :( Peregrino
The Reaper
02-23-2006, 22:30
I hate to say it, but looking at the Yankee model for immigration down here, it takes at least one generation to get them to quit telling you how great it was up there, and how we should change to make it more like the place they left.
That leads to the inevitable question, "Well, if it was so great up there, why did you move down here?"
I suspect that the Euros who would come here would not be conservatives. Until the first wave of the Islamic War reaches them.
TR
Peregrino
02-23-2006, 23:31
I hate to say it, but looking at the Yankee model for immigration down here, it takes at least one generation to get them to quit telling you how great it was up there, and how we should change to make it more like the place they left.
That leads to the inevitable question, "Well, if it was so great up there, why did you move down here?"
I suspect that the Euros who would come here would not be conservatives. Until the first wave of the Islamic War reaches them.
TR
I can't argue, it's a fact of life. And not just in God's Country. You only have to look at the "California Cancer" spreading throughout the "left coast". Your point is especially weighty when you consider that American liberalism can trace its roots to the massive influx of European Socialists settling in New England following the "War of Northern Aggression". (And taking up prestigous positions in "Ivy League" academia that their disciples still use today to brainwash susceptible/malleable idiots.) How about if we only take the veterans (survivors) of the first wave of the "Islamic War"? Unfortunately if we wait too late all their best breeding stock will get killed off (again). Look at the French they're probably beyond salvage - they've been getting their best and brightest killed off about once a generation since pre-Roman times - to the point that they'll be the first to succumb to the Islamists (if their anemic response to the Paris Riots is any indicator). I have to quit now - this is starting to be too much fun! :p Peregrino
Yeaaah... unfortunately, I think the Sirs may be right.
A lot depends on how immigration is handled today and in the next five years, and economic policy and political direction during them. Today, I would not be optimistic. Five years - at least it's possible.
I consider this in two major time aspects separated by when tensions rise, which would be triggered by different factors in each case. Basically continued decline or turn towards bettering, but there are still central issues that need to be solved in both and I don't think the pain will go away without screams - whether it is EU unity, EU organization, or terrorism. The question is rather how prepared we/"they" will be to meet the challenges and how those challenges will appear.
Besides, there are secondary questions that are crucial for where this is heading, most important of which I think are property rights (goes for the US too, ever wondered about the leanings of the techies?), organized crime (Sweden is in deep doo-doo), and freedom of speech.
I just don't believe in a silent death unless you can force everyone to shut up.
However, you must admit the problem to deal with it effectively. Lots of thoughts on that, but I better shut my pie hole now.
As for sorting out immigrants, I still advocate training and sending us into combat. Also serves as a point where untrustworthy people can be weeded out.
Martin
The Reaper
02-25-2006, 15:08
As for sorting out immigrants, I still advocate training and sending us into combat. Also serves as a point where untrustworthy people can be weeded out.
Martin
Spoken like someone who has never seen the elephant.
I do not want potentially untrustworthy men in the line on my left or right.
TR
Sir, that's what I meant. The hazards of going into combat might be a perfect motivation for rejecting those untrustworthy before going there and later accepting us, seeing that the current immigration system seems to have a problem of finding and using the reasons there are for rejecting people. In training.
Nevertheless, I do of course trust your judgement on this more than my lack of experience, if you still disagree.
Martin
A lot depends on how immigration is handled today and in the next five years, and economic policy and political direction during them.
Martin,
The die is cast. At this point, changes to immigration policy would not affect the outcome in Europe one bit, only the timing of its arrival. Europe is going to collapse under the weight of an alien culture because Europeans refuse to breed. :(
Martin,
The die is cast. At this point, changes to immigration policy would not affect the outcome in Europe one bit, only the timing of its arrival. Europe is going to collapse under the weight of an alien culture because Europeans refuse to breed. :(
jatx,
Sidenote, no offense intended: don't you have a breeding problem in the US too? Last I heard, it was only alleviated by immigration from the south. Of course, that is a closer culture.
Europe's potential failure lies in its inability to value right and wrong and gray and appreciate reality accordingly. It really runs as a thread through most lack of action, avoidance of admitting Europe's nature - be it good or bad, or adopting economic policies conducive to competition. You can even see it when discussing GDP over here.
But that is not the point. The point is that we have a choice in where we are heading, no matter where we came from or where we are. I firmly believe that we have among us a lot of talent and that we can use it to prepare ourselves. That does not ensure survival, just a chance thereof.
And it does make a difference. If we can alter the time table and the most likely path, we can organize accordingly.
Will we? Even if substituting this threat by that of a general decline, we still do not currently have the leadership to make the necessary changes.
This does beg questions about who are capable of organizing a response, and the process intentions of the threat (subjugation? cleansing? conversion?).
The time horizon is also extremely important and makes a world of difference in how it would come about, as well as world wide responses.
What would Russia do with free hands in Chechnya? Serbia? Would China use its conventional capability to take ground in the middle east? SEA, with Thailand and Australia? Their focus might suffer.
Still there would be a global US wrath without humor in search of targets to destroy.
I really don't know or have thought about it enough to openly speculate about what approach is most likely, in what time aspect, with what breadth of action. Would like hearing your thoughts on that.
Martin
jatx,
Sidenote, no offense intended: don't you have a breeding problem in the US too? Last I heard, it was only alleviated by immigration from the south. Of course, that is a closer culture.
Martin,
You raise some good points. However, the replacement rate statistics (births minus deaths) vary widely by region in the US. The Notheast and California look a lot like Europe in terms of family planning, but folks in the South are doing more than our fair share to ensure the country's future. I have even seen reports that Yankee transplants to the South are likely to have more children than if they remained in the Northeast.
Must be something in the water. :D
Martin,
You raise some good points. However, the replacement rate statistics (births minus deaths) vary widely by region in the US. The Notheast and California look a lot like Europe in terms of family planning, but folks in the South are doing more than our fair share to ensure the country's future. I have even seen reports that Yankee transplants to the South are likely to have more children than if they remained in the Northeast.
Must be something in the water. :D
Roger. :D
Martin - Off to grappling