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Cobra642
01-25-2006, 16:26
I recently purchased a Bushmaster M4A3 as a birthday present to myself and had a question for the experts. I haven't used a .223 round much since basic training in 1981 and don't know much about commercially available rounds.
My questions are:

1) What's a good brand/type of ammo for zeroing and basic range shooting, and

2) What's a good brand/type for having on hand for the next suburban neighborhood insurrection, or for that matter

3) What are brands/types to stay away from.

Thanks in advance.

Pete
01-25-2006, 17:17
There are some very good weapons/ammo guys who will come along in a bit and give the complete breakdown and a few links.

Not all weapons should fire the 5.56mm while anything that can fire the 5.56mm can fire the .223 round. The 5.56mm is usually loaded to produce higher pressures and a faster round. Check your weapon to be sure it's chambered for 5.56mm Nato or .223 Remington. Bushmasters should be all chambered for the 5.56mm.

Once you get into the 5.56mm you have 55 grain and 62 grain rounds. You'll find other terms like "green tip" British SS 109. Makers include Wolf, Silver Bear (?), Hornady, Remington, Winchester, Federal just to name a few.

I'm not too picky and will shoot the cheapest I can find as I just mainly plink out to 200 meters. Missfires? Only missfires I ever had was with some Egyption 8mm Mauser. Mixed lots and bulk packed.

The M4 has a short barrel and fails to get max pressure/speed out of standard military rounds.

The Reaper
01-25-2006, 17:44
Cobra:

You might get a better response if you read the rules, stickies, intros, etc., and introduced yourself in the proper place before asking for help. We have other Snake pilots here who might like to know you.

You might also acquaint yourself with the "Search" button in the upper right-hand corner of the board and check to see if it has been asked before.

Have a nice day.

TR

Pete
01-26-2006, 07:26
http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

and

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=11

Pete
Just a plinker with a 5.56mm Chamber

Cobra642
01-26-2006, 10:22
Pete,

Thanks for the links. That cleared a lot of things up.

I guess I should change my question to what 5.56 mm ammo is recommended?

The Reaper
01-26-2006, 11:59
Pete,

Thanks for the links. That cleared a lot of things up.

I guess I should change my question to what 5.56 mm ammo is recommended?

Depends on your barrel twist and intended purpose.

TR

Pete
01-26-2006, 13:15
Hey Cobra;

you might be able to kill some time here

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#diff

I just peeked in there but there are a number of links to other areas.

Pete the Plinker

One day I'll tell the story on how I out-shot the Ranger while sitting in the middle of nowhere in Kuwait. He still says I took advantage of his lack of knowledge with the M16.

Cobra642
01-26-2006, 13:52
Barrel is a 1 in 9 twist.

Purpose; in no particular order:

1) recreational shooting; plinking.

2) personal defense on mountain property, ie. small brown bear, mountain lion, lunatic mountain fringe element. This would probably include lethality inside 100 yards and reliability. I'm very open to other suggestions.



Pete, Thanks for the link.

The Reaper
01-26-2006, 14:11
Any load approximating the issue M193 such as the Winchester Q3131A or Federal American Eagle would be my generic choice.

Look for a 55 grain bullet with a cannelure.

If you want a more expensive precision round, the 62-69 grain match HPs should shoot well in your rifle.

For light game, I would take any of the heavier bullets in a bonded version.

For varmints, the lighter bullets.

For two legged game, the M193 clones should do just fine.

Avoid Wolf and unknown foreign surplus. Others may have a different opinion, this has been discussed here several times if you want to look it up.

I also enjoy the .22 conversion kit for plinking and CB cap use.

TR

Cobra642
01-26-2006, 14:43
Thanks again. That info and the link Pete provided was just what I was looking for.

JGarcia
02-04-2006, 03:56
After having read this thread and its links, I wonder if it is possible for our Company Commander or his representative to order M193 ammunition when we are deployed?

The Reaper
02-04-2006, 11:25
After having read this thread and its links, I wonder if it is possible for our Company Commander or his representative to order M193 ammunition when we are deployed?

He has a 1x9" twist barrel. Yours will almost certainly be 1x7", which would likely reduce the accuracy of the M193.

As a military unit, you would be better off trying to request or scrounge the Mark 262 77 gr. OTM rounds, at least, for your better shooters. It is hard to come by and much more expensive than M855 though.

TR

JGarcia
02-04-2006, 20:14
Thanks TR. The link below to the 'oracle' leads to a passage on the page that reads : "Simple question: Can I fire M193 ammo in my 1:7 or 1:9 twist barrel?

Yes.

M193 is essentially a "universal" round; able to be stabilized by barrels with twists between 1:14 and 1:7. Point of impact will change slightly compared to an M855 zero, so rezeroing is recommended."


This probably doesn't matter, I am just pondering things. I know that once our guys set foot on the ground they'll get whatever ammo is easiest for the S4 to come by.

As we transition from an Infantry Line company to a dismounted RSTA company, we'll get other weapons eventually. I saw the MTOE, we're supposed to have 2 ea. .50cal sniper sections, and 2ea. 7.62mm (not sure of the weapon system) Sniper sections, along with 4 scout sections, a number of RB17's w/motors & trailers, etc. Should be some nifty schools coming for our guys too.

david_reeves
02-04-2006, 22:55
When you're deployed, you'll probably fing getting anything other than M855 for your M16A2-M4 etc difficult. I would concentrate on getting enough ammunition between now and deployment time to actually train with. Your average troopie will be hard pressed to notice a difference between M855 and M262. Its not a slam, but thier shooting ability just isn't USUALLY at that level. Now, for the ones who can actually shoot (not just think they can..) the heavier 77gr makes a big difference. Just remember hitting the running-not at standard know distance-shooting back at you target is not the same as making sure that you're watching for e-type shilouettes to pop up on the golf course fairway style qual range.


Dave

Gene Econ
02-05-2006, 22:05
After having read this thread and its links, I wonder if it is possible for our Company Commander or his representative to order M193 ammunition when we are deployed?

M-4 Shooter:

I doubt it. A combination of ignorance and bureaucracy. To almost anyone in the Army outside of the type of guy who would read PS.Com, 5.56 is 5.56. I have had to be very specific about something as simple as ensuring I get the appropriate tracer for the ball. M-855 ball and M-856 tracer. If we get M-193 ball, we must get M-196 tracer. Very confusing for even the guy who requests the ammo. They simply don't know there is a difference.

As for the accuracy of M-193 from a 7 turn twist. I have found it to be far more accurate than the issued M-855 'Green Tip' to 300. Sure, the 7 turn twist spins it too fast. However, overstabilizing a bullet is way better than not stabalizing it enough. I have seen some rebuilt M-16A2s shoot M-193 to under 2 minutes consistently to 300 yards. Same M-16A2's with M-855 and you get at least 3 minutes at 300 with one in about eight farther out.

You will see a significant change in zeros between the two issued ball rounds. You won't see it as much at 25 as you will at 300. It's there but you really have to be a good shot and understand what a 25 meter zero does in order to see the difference.

A better option for both types of ammo is a 1/9 twist IMHO. Of course a far better option is a better barrel. Neither are things the Army is about to do so be happy if you get ball to do any training with.

In the Guard, you are more able to get the 77 grain stuff that TR is talking about. That is a real good option for a 7 turn twist. Better bullet, better match with the rifling twist. You see, the Oregon Guard can basically buy commercial ammunition through your SARTS and Rifle Team (if you have either left). No Regular outfit (white side) I know of is able to legally buy commercial ammunition. However, it depends on how willing your chain of command is to fight the ensuing battle!

Gene

azmg
02-06-2006, 04:44
Don't know if this would help anyone but I found it informative:

Q. What type of ammo is current issue for US Military forces?

All front-line forces are armed with M16A2s and M4s and are issued M855 as standard-issue ammo. A few remaining Reserve and National Guard units, as well as some Air Force units, still carry M16A1s (you've probably seen them in the airports lately) and are issued M193 Ball (if they are issued any ammo at all) because of the difference in twist of the barrel.

Some special forces units, particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq, are using Mk262 and Mk262 Mod1 ammo. These are rounds loaded with heavy (up to 77 grain) JHP match bullets, in response to some issues with M855 terminal performance. This continues a recent trend towards heavier rounds (69 grains and over) for improved terminal ballistic performance.


Q. What about Mk262 or Mk262 Mod1?

Due to the poor performance of M855 ammunition, particularly in short-barreled carbines of 10.5-14.5" in length, Navy SEALs, and eventually other SOCOM units, began experimenting with using loads originally designed for marksmanship units for combat. It was soon discovered that while these loads were both very accurate and had excellent terminal ballistics even from short barrels, the loads weren't quite ideal for combat. The target bullets had no cannelure, and the bullets weren't crimped in place, which could allow bullet set-back during feeding and raise chamber pressures to dangerous levels. Further, most loads were of somewhat mild velocities, as the load was chosen with accuracy, not terminal ballistics, in mind.

Sierra was asked to produce a bullet cannelured version, but they intially refused.

Nosler did not have any problems putting a cannelure on their 77 gr bullet. Black Hills Ammunition was approached to make a slightly modified version of these loads for combat use. A cannelure was specified, the bullets were to be crimped, and the load was to be up to military chamber pressures, with maximum safe velocity being desired. The primers were to be crimped and sealed, and of course, overall length had allow for loading in standard magazines.

The Marines (in conjunction with a large Federal LE agency) did extensive testing of this large experimental batch of BH loaded Nosler 77 gr cannelured OTM's in the Fall of 2002. It offered outstanding terminal performance out to the maximum test distance of 300 yards. They then ordered 1.1 million rounds of cannelured 77 gr OTM's via the existing Mk262 SOCOM contract (which did not specify a manufacturer) administered through Crane. The cannelured 77 gr load was designated Mk262 Mod 1, and the orginal Mk262 was re-designated Mk262 Mod 0.





According to one observer: "At this point bureaucracy, nepostism, and capitalism converged. Sierra realized they were about to lose a VERY LARGE contract and suddenly they agreed to make the 77 gr SMK with a cannelure. Crane pushed for Sierra to get the contract over Nosler, although the Nosler offered better terminal performance. On the other hand, in all fairness, the Sierra bullet was slightly more accurate out of government test barrels than the Nosler--both shoot nearly the same out of real rifles, such as the by then type classified Mk12 SPR."

Therefore, while a few hundred-thousand rounds of 77 gr Nosler OTM was manufactured and used primarily for testing, the cannelured 77 gr SMK was used in the the multi-million round contract for the Mk262 Mod 1.

Recently, Sierra agreed to add a minimal crimp to their bullet, and this has since replaced the Nosler bullet in the current versions of Mk262 Mod1. As of April 2004, Mk 262 Mod1 has seen extensive use in Afghanistan and Iraq, in carbines with barrels as short as 10.5", and has proven to be very effective at ranges that M855 is woefully inadequate from the same weapons. It is also commonly used in the Army's "Special Purpose Rifles" (SPRs), which are accurized 18"-barreled rifles used by soldiers with additional combat marksmanship training in a squad sharp-shooter role.

Team Sergeant
02-06-2006, 07:48
Don't know if this would help anyone but I found it informative:

Q. What type of ammo is current issue for US Military forces?

All front-line forces are armed with M16A2s and M4s and are issued M855 as standard-issue ammo. A few remaining Reserve and National Guard units, as well as some Air Force units, still carry M16A1s (you've probably seen them in the airports lately) and are issued M193 Ball (if they are issued any ammo at all) because of the difference in twist of the barrel.

Some special forces units, particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq, are using Mk262 and Mk262 Mod1 ammo. These are rounds loaded with heavy (up to 77 grain) JHP match bullets, in response to some issues with M855 terminal performance. This continues a recent trend towards heavier rounds (69 grains and over) for improved terminal ballistic performance.


Q. What about Mk262 or Mk262 Mod1?

Due to the poor performance of M855 ammunition, particularly in short-barreled carbines of 10.5-14.5" in length, Navy SEALs, and eventually other SOCOM units, began experimenting with using loads originally designed for marksmanship units for combat. It was soon discovered that while these loads were both very accurate and had excellent terminal ballistics even from short barrels, the loads weren't quite ideal for combat. The target bullets had no cannelure, and the bullets weren't crimped in place, which could allow bullet set-back during feeding and raise chamber pressures to dangerous levels. Further, most loads were of somewhat mild velocities, as the load was chosen with accuracy, not terminal ballistics, in mind.

Sierra was asked to produce a bullet cannelured version, but they intially refused.

Nosler did not have any problems putting a cannelure on their 77 gr bullet. Black Hills Ammunition was approached to make a slightly modified version of these loads for combat use. A cannelure was specified, the bullets were to be crimped, and the load was to be up to military chamber pressures, with maximum safe velocity being desired. The primers were to be crimped and sealed, and of course, overall length had allow for loading in standard magazines.

The Marines (in conjunction with a large Federal LE agency) did extensive testing of this large experimental batch of BH loaded Nosler 77 gr cannelured OTM's in the Fall of 2002. It offered outstanding terminal performance out to the maximum test distance of 300 yards. They then ordered 1.1 million rounds of cannelured 77 gr OTM's via the existing Mk262 SOCOM contract (which did not specify a manufacturer) administered through Crane. The cannelured 77 gr load was designated Mk262 Mod 1, and the orginal Mk262 was re-designated Mk262 Mod 0.





According to one observer: "At this point bureaucracy, nepostism, and capitalism converged. Sierra realized they were about to lose a VERY LARGE contract and suddenly they agreed to make the 77 gr SMK with a cannelure. Crane pushed for Sierra to get the contract over Nosler, although the Nosler offered better terminal performance. On the other hand, in all fairness, the Sierra bullet was slightly more accurate out of government test barrels than the Nosler--both shoot nearly the same out of real rifles, such as the by then type classified Mk12 SPR."

Therefore, while a few hundred-thousand rounds of 77 gr Nosler OTM was manufactured and used primarily for testing, the cannelured 77 gr SMK was used in the the multi-million round contract for the Mk262 Mod 1.

Recently, Sierra agreed to add a minimal crimp to their bullet, and this has since replaced the Nosler bullet in the current versions of Mk262 Mod1. As of April 2004, Mk 262 Mod1 has seen extensive use in Afghanistan and Iraq, in carbines with barrels as short as 10.5", and has proven to be very effective at ranges that M855 is woefully inadequate from the same weapons. It is also commonly used in the Army's "Special Purpose Rifles" (SPRs), which are accurized 18"-barreled rifles used by soldiers with additional combat marksmanship training in a squad sharp-shooter role.


azmag,

I don't know where you pulled that from but I will tell you to place a "URL" above it or below it and you should also credit the author/source.

Team Sergeant

Pete
02-06-2006, 18:47
azmag,

I don't know where you pulled that from but I will tell you to place a "URL" above it or below it and you should also credit the author/source.

Team Sergeant

Hey TS;

He pulled it from the link I gave in my post on the first page (the ammo guru link)

Pete

JGarcia
02-06-2006, 19:15
Gene econ,

Remember in Oregon, we're enhanced, we get more money for training than many other NG units. We always get M855 ammunition when we go to the range, to zero and qualify. We always have plenty of ammunition, certainly enough in the company to qualify everyone, and enough left over to shoot your qualification again if you're feeling froggy. We typically use the Klamath Falls PD range, but in the future we may be shooting at Kingsley Field, ANG Base. (They are closing down our armory and moving us onto a new one on Kingsley Field.) We shoot.... a lot. It really is a good unit.

When we go the Thunder Ranch, the unit pays for the schooling, and we have to buy our own ammunition to shoot through the units weapons. We can only fire the infrangible stuff at TR. Typically we buy it individually from a company in Salt Lake City, UT. We have some very very good shots in our unit.

It would be great to have the new 77gr ammo on deployment, but if the S4 sections are like they have been in the past, we won't see it. It takes a supply guy with moxy to work a deal to get anything non-standard. And then we'd just be taking it from someone who really needs it, the PS's doing the dirty work abroad.

The Reaper
02-06-2006, 20:02
Black Hills Ammo is the source, but I am not sure whether they would ship you the MILSPEC Mk 262 Mod 1 5.56x45.

It is loaded a bit hotter than their civilian .223 77gr. BTHP-Match. The civvie load lacks the cannelure as well.

TR

azmg
02-07-2006, 09:46
azmag,

I don't know where you pulled that from but I will tell you to place a "URL" above it or below it and you should also credit the author/source.

Team Sergeant


TS- My apologies, no intention of not crediting the author, material was sent by my local FFL (as an email) as an FYI on some questions I had asked.

N.Franklin
03-01-2006, 01:21
[quote=DocGKR]Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in .223/5.56 mm:

----------------------------------

For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the superb new milspec loaded Hornady 75 gr OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM--which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are adequate. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

If routinely engaging vehicles, the LE .223 loads which most effectively penetrate automobiles are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. The new Hornady 60 gr “barrier penetration” JSP and the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are the next best choices, but are not as quite as effective as the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claws against glass. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance; with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

------------------------------

Most LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Federal 55/62 gr bonded Tactical JSP, or Winchester 64 gr JSP (it is on the state contract and is VERY inexpensive)--all have worked very well in actual officer involved shootings. I prefer the Hornady 75 gr OTM in 30 rd mags and a few 20 rd mags of Federal Tactical 62 gr JSP for barrier situations.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. For LE urban work with lots of entries and mounted work I use a 10.5” LMT CQB-R w/Aimpoint because, despite the ballistic compromise, for the mission it is the best choice. For GP/Patrol I carry a 16” with a 3.5x TA11 ACOG (the variable 1-4x optics, like the S&B short dot are also great for this role) -- pick the right tool for the job. Given the ammo currently available via the supply system, in a military setting I would prefer mainly Mk262Mod1 and if available, a couple of mags of M955 AP for barriers and some M856 tracer (or TB74 dim trace) for marking targets.

As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement.

----------------------------

Remember the 6.8 x 43 mm SPC offers dramatically superior terminal performance compared to ALL existing 5.56 mm loads. Where 5.56 mm carbines may offer an advantage is when limited penetration through common intermediate barriers is desirable, for example, LE personnel performing entry in crowded urban environments. For those LE personnel who will need to punch through intermediate barriers or into vehicles, the 6.8 mm offers both superior penetration and incapacitation ability compared to 5.56 mm. Finally, keep in mind that 6.8 mm is more versatile and effective in short barreled carbines, as it does not suffer as much terminal performance decrement as 5.56 mm fired from short barrels.[/'quote]

Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.

The Reaper
03-01-2006, 08:43
Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.

1. This ain't the Tactical Forums.

2. Ask Doc what his real world personal shooting experience is, how many live targets he has personally engaged or examined, and what his actual profession is. He is neither a combat vet, or a forensic pathologist.

3. I would prefer not to have personal opinions from other sites cut and posted here. If you have personal experiences to share, put 'em up. If all you have is opinions from another web site, feel free to keep them to yourself.

TR

N.Franklin
03-01-2006, 20:41
I couldnt find a smiley for sarcasm, so I left it to imagination. It is a good read nonetheless.

Ambush Master
03-01-2006, 21:06
I couldnt find a smiley for sarcasm, so I left it to imagination. It is a good read nonetheless.

You're next "Smiley for Sarcasm" will likely be as a Banned User!!!

If you have not shot someone with it, don't bother attempting to pass on someone elses drivel, who hasn't really used it EITHER!!!

This is NOT an Air-Softer Site!!

In the words of my Brother,

Have a very SF Day!!!

Gene Econ
03-03-2006, 21:42
[quote=DocGKR]Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in .223/5.56 mm:

----------------------------------

For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the superb new milspec loaded Hornady 75 gr OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM--which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are adequate. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

If routinely engaging vehicles, the LE .223 loads which most effectively penetrate automobiles are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. The new Hornady 60 gr “barrier penetration” JSP and the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are the next best choices, but are not as quite as effective as the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claws against glass. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance; with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

------------------------------

Most LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Federal 55/62 gr bonded Tactical JSP, or Winchester 64 gr JSP (it is on the state contract and is VERY inexpensive)--all have worked very well in actual officer involved shootings. I prefer the Hornady 75 gr OTM in 30 rd mags and a few 20 rd mags of Federal Tactical 62 gr JSP for barrier situations.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. For LE urban work with lots of entries and mounted work I use a 10.5” LMT CQB-R w/Aimpoint because, despite the ballistic compromise, for the mission it is the best choice. For GP/Patrol I carry a 16” with a 3.5x TA11 ACOG (the variable 1-4x optics, like the S&B short dot are also great for this role) -- pick the right tool for the job. Given the ammo currently available via the supply system, in a military setting I would prefer mainly Mk262Mod1 and if available, a couple of mags of M955 AP for barriers and some M856 tracer (or TB74 dim trace) for marking targets.

As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement.

----------------------------

Remember the 6.8 x 43 mm SPC offers dramatically superior terminal performance compared to ALL existing 5.56 mm loads. Where 5.56 mm carbines may offer an advantage is when limited penetration through common intermediate barriers is desirable, for example, LE personnel performing entry in crowded urban environments. For those LE personnel who will need to punch through intermediate barriers or into vehicles, the 6.8 mm offers both superior penetration and incapacitation ability compared to 5.56 mm. Finally, keep in mind that 6.8 mm is more versatile and effective in short barreled carbines, as it does not suffer as much terminal performance decrement as 5.56 mm fired from short barrels.[/'quote]

Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.

Gene Econ
03-03-2006, 22:12
Sorry guys, my post didn't indicate my reply.

Computer issues.

Gene

Gene Econ
03-04-2006, 21:47
1. This ain't the Tactical Forums.

2. Ask Doc what his real world personal shooting experience is, how many live targets he has personally engaged or examined, and what his actual profession is. He is neither a combat vet, or a forensic pathologist.

3. I would prefer not to have personal opinions from other sites cut and posted here. If you have personal experiences to share, put 'em up. If all you have is opinions from another web site, feel free to keep them to yourself.

TR

TR:

Is this 'Doc' guy the Naval Reserve Dentist by chance?

Fascinating post. I wonder who can remember where he has stored his three different types of ammo on his body armor when being shot at from under fifty yards? Or will he stop and change mags to ensure he is using the right type of ammo for the situation?

Very strange indeed.

Gene

Team Sergeant
03-05-2006, 10:36
Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.

I heard that this docgkr is a poser and only visits forums where he can fool the masses. god's voice, for christs sake you people are stupid.

n. franklin, post crap like this again and you will be banned. we do not allow air-softers to post on here and will not allow people to post third party bull shit on here. A dentist talking about the warrior mindset, and bullets you've got to be fooking kidding me, what an idiot.

Team Sergeant

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2006, 11:23
Freakin' jello shooters.

MAB32
03-14-2006, 18:13
Gene,
this conversation brings up a question that I have had for years that maybe you or another QP can answer. Back in the mid 80's I owned an SP1 and was shooting 55 grain out of it like there was no tomorrow. When 62 grain first appeared on the gunshow circuit shortly thereafter I was told that I would be wasting my money if I bought it because the 1-12 twist rate would not be able to stabilize the round enough to be accurate and I would end up with mostly "keyholing" at distances greater than 100 yards. I never experienced it and got acceptable accuracy to boot. Then I purchased an A2 and tried the direct opposite; 55 grain through it and was again told, "your're wasting your money becuase the twist rate is too fast for 55 grain and it will rip off the jacket as it goes through the bore and on on and so forth and so with. Never had a problem with shooting the 55 and it made nice small holes at 100 yards too. Did anybody else hear this and was it just "hype" or is there some merit to it?

Gene Econ
03-15-2006, 08:58
Gene, When 62 grain first appeared on the gunshow circuit shortly thereafter I was told that I would be wasting my money if I bought it because the 1-12 twist rate would not be able to stabilize the round enough to be accurate and I would end up with mostly "keyholing" at distances greater than 100 yards. I never experienced it and got acceptable accuracy to boot. Then I purchased an A2 and tried the direct opposite; 55 grain through it and was again told, "your're wasting your money becuase the twist rate is too fast for 55 grain and it will rip off the jacket as it goes through the bore and on on and so forth and so with. Never had a problem with shooting the 55 and it made nice small holes at 100 yards too. Did anybody else hear this and was it just "hype" or is there some merit to it?

MAB:

Basically, your 12 turn twist really needs a short and relatively light 5.56 bullet. 55 grains is about it. You can shoot the 62 gran stuff out of it but it will yaw and pitch too much for good accuracy. I doubt it will tumble unless you go past 300 yards but your shot groups will be very poor.

It is better to overstabalize than understabalize so firing the 55 grain stuff out of the 1/7 barrels on the A-2 is just fine -- to a point. I wouldn't expect as good accuracy from them past 300 yards as I would a heaiver and longer bullet.

You need to research 'precssion' and 'nutation' in some good ballistics books. If you want, also research the relationship between the center of mass and point of pressure on bullets. They tie together.

As for in bore jacket failure -- I haven't seen it happen in bore. I have seen bullets literally explode in flight due to too fast a spin plus too fast a velocity. Match grade or varmint bullets use pretty thin jackets and if you spin them too fast -- normally too high a velocity -- they may have a jacket failure in flight. You see a puff of grey as the bullet disintegrates. It doesn't happen in bore unless the jacket was defective in some manner.

Military ball uses very thick jackets. For hunters, they would almost be considered 'solids'. You won't see a jacket fail in flight on one of these from any commercial or issued rifle.

Gene

kgoerz
03-15-2006, 15:21
Speaking of AMMO.....The biggest problem I have seen and always hear about is the velocity of .223 or 5.56. You all know what I am talking about. It just zips thru the Threat, not putting him down. My question is can Military units use Hollow points or soft tipped Ammo these days. I know Contractors use them. But are our Troops still restricted to Ball Ammo??? Never heard of this rule being changed

Gene Econ
03-15-2006, 17:10
Speaking of AMMO.....The biggest problem I have seen and always hear about is the velocity of .223 or 5.56. You all know what I am talking about. It just zips thru the Threat, not putting him down. My question is can Military units use Hollow points or soft tipped Ammo these days. I know Contractors use them. But are our Troops still restricted to Ball Ammo??? Never heard of this rule being changed

K:

Rule has not been changed. Although the issued M-118 Long Range uses an 'open tip' as it is a Match Grade bullet, the tip ain't so open it would get hung up feeding. In fact, all you see is kind of a dot where the jacket converges at the meplat.

I believe the 77 grain 5.56 that will probably replace the M-855 is FMJ with a cannelure as opposed to the open tip / non cannelure match bullet of the same weight and design.

Feeding issues for many different types of 5.56 weapons in many different conditions of wear make anything but FMJ kind of out of the question. Also, no doubt there are some standards that must be met. Normally distance and hit probabilities. Normally, your spitzer tip FMJ will give more danger space and a smaller cone of fire than other tip designs. For competitive shooters, danger space means 'flatter trajectory' and cone of fire means 'shot group'.

Zipping through a threat is probably correct. So does the issued 7.62. The problem with service ammunition is that it has always been designed to penetrate. No one I know hunts big game animals using issued 7.62 ball. The bullets aren't designed to expand. I would rather take my chances shooting someone behind hard material using issued FMJ than hollow or soft points.

For terminal effects on live tissue, lowering the velocity isn't the solution for issued FMJ. Lower the velocity too much and your danger space and effective range decreases dramatically -- in small arms terms. For those who believe in hydrostatic shock, lowering the velocity decreases the effects of hydrostatic shock. Now, slowing the rifling twist can mean an increased probability that the issued FMJ destabalizes faster when it penetrates things denser than air -- like flesh and blood. It also means it will destabalize faster when penetrating things like small trees, cars, walls, etc. Can't win.

I do hand it to military small arms bullet designers. They work based on two facts -- gravity and drag. However, they are also forced to design based on random factors that can't possibly be modeled.

No one will get what he wants with issued ammo but I am betting that if that 77 grain lead core stuff gets issued, there will be a much higher hit and kill probability than with the issued M-855 ball.

Gene

kgoerz
03-15-2006, 17:40
Thanks Gene. E
Maybe the lawyers on here can add to this. The rule about not using anything but ball Ammo in this day and age has always been an issue with me. Like you said with the soft Ammo and Hollow points, penetration of cover is a big concern. I am a firm believer in shooting thru cover to eliminate a threat (Urban Environment). I know in N.C the use of Ball Ammo for hunting is forbidden because it allows the Deer too much time to get away. In a perfect world the Operators should be given the proper Ammo for the situation. Urban Warfare/ open terrain.

The Reaper
03-15-2006, 20:28
Speaking of AMMO.....The biggest problem I have seen and always hear about is the velocity of .223 or 5.56. You all know what I am talking about. It just zips thru the Threat, not putting him down. My question is can Military units use Hollow points or soft tipped Ammo these days. I know Contractors use them. But are our Troops still restricted to Ball Ammo??? Never heard of this rule being changed

The 5.56x45mm bullet rarely if ever zips through. After a few inches of tissue, the bullet yaws and reverses to go base forward. If it hits with the velocity over 2500 fps, it may seperate at the cannelure and frag the majority of the lead core into adjacent tissue while the tip continues generally forward. If it is over 2700 fps at impact, it will almost certainly frag. This was what most people referred to as "hydrostatic shock", which is actually the temporary cavitation the round causes. Some tissue structures are elastic enough to return to normal after the stretch (less the permanent wound cavity), some other structures are not (brain, liver, etc.).

The DoD JAG has determined that Open Tip Match (OTM) ammunition is designed to be more accurate, and not to cause increased damage. The hollow point, as Gene noted, is only a tiny hollow and does not create an effective wound beyond the increased accuracy causing it to go where it is aimed much more effectively than the M855. If it the newer cannelured Mark 262 75/77 gr. 5.56, it will also frag if it impacts at the appropriate velocity.

There is a separate legal determination that pretty much any hollow point ammo can be used (by certain special units) if the threat is criminal or terrorist in nature, rather than a Geneva/Hague protected combatant.

The conventions which we are ordered to abide by limit the types of ammo we may use against other protected combatants. Clearly, we would require that our normal opponents, like the FSU, not run functional hollow-points, non-radio opaque, or exploding bullets. Note that our current opponents are not protected by the Conventions.

There has also been effective 7.62x51mm FMJ which fragged horribly, it was an 80s era German load, IIRC. Fully legal, very nasty.

Hard to get a round which penetrates, but does not overpenetrate, and yet is a good tissue destructor. Some people complain that the M855 overpenetrates on structures, others will say that it underpenetrates. The Mark 262 is better than the M855 at almost everything but LR penetration. The LeMas is one of the best compromises that I have seen, but it is expensive and has not been ruled on by the JAG, to my knowledge.

TR

MAB32
03-16-2006, 16:19
I did some research and came up with this article I beleive is from the IWBA(?)


Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges

Exaggerated descriptions of the wounding effects of the M16 rifle bullet flourish as great works of urban lore. One fable describes a bullet that tumbles end-over-end in flight as soon as it exits the muzzle of the rifle. Another legend provides a dramatic account of an unstable, super-high velocity bullet that tumbles and chews its way through flesh like a buzz saw. Although there appears to be a tinge of half-truth behind these entertaining and awe-inspiring mythical tales, these stories do not represent an accurate description of the wounding characteristics of the M16 bullet.

When the M16 cartridge is fired and the bullet is propelled down the bore, the bore’s rifling imparts a gyroscopic spin to the bullet. This gyroscopic rotation is needed to maintain point forward stabilization of the bullet as it flies through the air. This method of bullet stabilization is identical to the rotational spin applied to a football when thrown by a quarterback (American football).

The Earth’s gaseous atmosphere is approximately 400 times less dense than the body's soft tissues. When the M16 bullet strikes and plows into the body, the rotational spin that stabilized its flight through the air is insufficient to maintain its stability as it flies through dense tissue. The bullet typically penetrates point forward for approximately 4-5 inches before it begins to seek a state of stability in the body.

The bullet’s pointed shape makes it heavier at its base than its nose, producing a center of gravity that is located aft of its longitudinal centerline. When the bullet hits the body and penetrates, the bullet attempts to rotate 180 degrees around its center of gravity to achieve a base forward orientation. This backwards orientation is the bullet’s stable position in tissue because it places the center of gravity forward.

As the bullet yaws through 90 degrees and is traveling sideways through flesh, the stress of tissue resistance to bullet passage can overpower the physical integrity of the bullet. The bullet has a groove around its midsection called a cannelure. The purpose of the cannelure is to permit the mouth of the cartridge case to be crimped tightly against the bullet shank to hold it firmly to the case. The cannelure weakens the structural integrity of the bullet's copper jacket.

At distances of 100 yards and under, when the bullet hits the body and yaws through 90 degrees, the stresses on the bullet cause the leading edge to flatten, extruding lead core out the open base, just before it breaks apart at the cannelure. The portion of the bullet forward of the cannelure, the nose, usually remains in one piece and retains about 60 percent of the bullet's original weight. The portion of the bullet aft of the cannelure, the base, violently disintegrates into multiple lead core and copper jacket fragments, which penetrate up to 3-inches radially outward from the wound track. The fragments perforate and weaken the surrounding tissues allowing the subsequent temporary cavity to forcibly stretch and rip open the multiple small wound tracks produced by the fragments. The resulting wound is similar to one produced by a commercial expanding bullet used for varmint hunting, however the maximum tissue damage produced by the military bullet is located at a greater penetration depth.

(The increased wounding effects produced by bullet fragmentation were not well understood until the mid-1980’s. Therefore the wounding effects of the original M16 rifle bullet were not an intentional U.S. military design characteristic.)

At distances between 100-200 yards the bullet commonly breaks in half at the cannelure forming two large penetrating fragments, the nose and base.

At distances beyond 200 yards the bullet usually remains intact due to velocity decay. It simply yaws 180 degrees to penetrate backwards through the body.

Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.

Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.

The older 55-grain M193 (M16A1) cartridge is not sensitive to rifling twist rate and can be fired in rifles with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 rates of twist. However, the newer M855 (M16A2) cartridge is best used with a rifling twist rate of 1:7 or 1:9. When the M855 is fired in a rifle with a slower rate of twist the longer 62-grain bullet can yaw up to 70 degrees in free trajectory through the air, substantially degrading accuracy.

The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.

Additional testing has indicated that errant bullets (military FMJ and commercial .223 Remington JSP/JHP) which do not hit an attacker appear to penetrate fewer walls and other common building materials than stray handgun bullets.

Click here to view wound profile illustrations of the M193 and M855 bullets.

References:

Fackler, Martin L.: "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets." International Defense Review 1/1989, 59-64.

Fackler, Martin L. : "Physics of Missile Injuries," Evaluation and Management of Trauma, Chapter 2. Appleton-Century-Crofts, Norwalk, CT; 1987, p. 35.

Roberts, Gary K, D.D.S.: "The Wounding Effects of 5.56MM/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared with 12 GA. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." Wound Ballistics Review 3(4), 16-28; 1998.

The Reaper
03-16-2006, 16:31
I thought that I already gave the Reader's Digest version of that?:rolleyes:

TR

jbour13
03-16-2006, 16:51
Thanks TR and MAB32,

This should end a lot of discussions of Gun-shop lore. I've been to the sandbox and never experienced the ill effects that seem to perpetuate the myth of 5.56mm lackluster performance. MAB32's description makes me think graphically. Kinda like the opening scene to Lord of War, life of one 7.62 round. I get the gun-shop commando that read too much and talks as if they've actually squeezed the round off into the person themselves. :mad:
Makes me want to ask what their experiences were on the 2 way range. I get all types.

I think the inadequate performance myth is rampant because this generations lack of real experience with shooting. They see Hokeywoods version of a 9mm throwing bad-guy A into a plate glass window, and the 5.56mm throwing bad-guy B down on the 20th round he absorbs.

I grew up hunting and can say that watching prairie dogs go to pieces close and stay together out longer distances made me understand a little more about how velocity and mass work.

I help my brother reload (I'm cheap, he's got the equip) .223, .243and 22-250 for our annual prarie dog excursion. There's a company that sells a tool to make your own.

http://www.corbins.com/prhct-1.htm

Thanks again fellas

MAB32
03-16-2006, 17:14
I did some research and came up with this article I beleive is from the IWBA(?)


Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges

Exaggerated descriptions of the wounding effects of the M16 rifle bullet flourish as great works of urban lore. One fable describes a bullet that tumbles end-over-end in flight as soon as it exits the muzzle of the rifle. Another legend provides a dramatic account of an unstable, super-high velocity bullet that tumbles and chews its way through flesh like a buzz saw. Although there appears to be a tinge of half-truth behind these entertaining and awe-inspiring mythical tales, these stories do not represent an accurate description of the wounding characteristics of the M16 bullet.

When the M16 cartridge is fired and the bullet is propelled down the bore, the bore’s rifling imparts a gyroscopic spin to the bullet. This gyroscopic rotation is needed to maintain point forward stabilization of the bullet as it flies through the air. This method of bullet stabilization is identical to the rotational spin applied to a football when thrown by a quarterback (American football).

The Earth’s gaseous atmosphere is approximately 400 times less dense than the body's soft tissues. When the M16 bullet strikes and plows into the body, the rotational spin that stabilized its flight through the air is insufficient to maintain its stability as it flies through dense tissue. The bullet typically penetrates point forward for approximately 4-5 inches before it begins to seek a state of stability in the body.

The bullet’s pointed shape makes it heavier at its base than its nose, producing a center of gravity that is located aft of its longitudinal centerline. When the bullet hits the body and penetrates, the bullet attempts to rotate 180 degrees around its center of gravity to achieve a base forward orientation. This backwards orientation is the bullet’s stable position in tissue because it places the center of gravity forward.

As the bullet yaws through 90 degrees and is traveling sideways through flesh, the stress of tissue resistance to bullet passage can overpower the physical integrity of the bullet. The bullet has a groove around its midsection called a cannelure. The purpose of the cannelure is to permit the mouth of the cartridge case to be crimped tightly against the bullet shank to hold it firmly to the case. The cannelure weakens the structural integrity of the bullet's copper jacket.

At distances of 100 yards and under, when the bullet hits the body and yaws through 90 degrees, the stresses on the bullet cause the leading edge to flatten, extruding lead core out the open base, just before it breaks apart at the cannelure. The portion of the bullet forward of the cannelure, the nose, usually remains in one piece and retains about 60 percent of the bullet's original weight. The portion of the bullet aft of the cannelure, the base, violently disintegrates into multiple lead core and copper jacket fragments, which penetrate up to 3-inches radially outward from the wound track. The fragments perforate and weaken the surrounding tissues allowing the subsequent temporary cavity to forcibly stretch and rip open the multiple small wound tracks produced by the fragments. The resulting wound is similar to one produced by a commercial expanding bullet used for varmint hunting, however the maximum tissue damage produced by the military bullet is located at a greater penetration depth.

(The increased wounding effects produced by bullet fragmentation were not well understood until the mid-1980’s. Therefore the wounding effects of the original M16 rifle bullet were not an intentional U.S. military design characteristic.)

At distances between 100-200 yards the bullet commonly breaks in half at the cannelure forming two large penetrating fragments, the nose and base.

At distances beyond 200 yards the bullet usually remains intact due to velocity decay. It simply yaws 180 degrees to penetrate backwards through the body.

Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.

Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.

The older 55-grain M193 (M16A1) cartridge is not sensitive to rifling twist rate and can be fired in rifles with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 rates of twist. However, the newer M855 (M16A2) cartridge is best used with a rifling twist rate of 1:7 or 1:9. When the M855 is fired in a rifle with a slower rate of twist the longer 62-grain bullet can yaw up to 70 degrees in free trajectory through the air, substantially degrading accuracy.

The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.

Additional testing has indicated that errant bullets (military FMJ and commercial .223 Remington JSP/JHP) which do not hit an attacker appear to penetrate fewer walls and other common building materials than stray handgun bullets.

Click here to view wound profile illustrations of the M193 and M855 bullets.

References:

Fackler, Martin L.: "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets." International Defense Review 1/1989, 59-64.

Fackler, Martin L. : "Physics of Missile Injuries," Evaluation and Management of Trauma, Chapter 2. Appleton-Century-Crofts, Norwalk, CT; 1987, p. 35.

Roberts, Gary K, D.D.S.: "The Wounding Effects of 5.56MM/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared with 12 GA. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." Wound Ballistics Review 3(4), 16-28; 1998.


Ok, here is the complete link:

www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm

By the way TR, I have that info bookmarked somewhere on the then West German 7.62x51mm round fragmenting as it went into the body. When and if I find it I will post here as well. I do believe that it was Dr. Martin Fackler that authored that article too.

The Reaper
03-16-2006, 17:15
MAB32, why did you post that long article again?

TR

MAB32
03-16-2006, 19:51
TR, what I think happened was that I started typing it out then left for dinner and some other chores. When I came back and finished it I received an "invalid message". It must of "timed out" on me. So I did a cut and past and pasted it again and resubmitted it. Had know idea that it was a double post! Forgive me guys. TR, yes you are right, you gave an excellent "Reader's Digest" condensed version. You can look at it this way though. You were right on the money and the experts backed your findings!

GnaM
03-25-2007, 17:59
By the way TR, I have that info bookmarked somewhere on the then West German 7.62x51mm round fragmenting as it went into the body. When and if I find it I will post here as well. I do believe that it was Dr. Martin Fackler that authored that article too.
ooh! ooh! I got it:
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html (HTML version)
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf (PDF)

Is it possible the German military still using these in some limited capacity?

The Reaper
03-25-2007, 18:38
ooh! ooh! I got it:
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html (HTML version)
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf (PDF)

Is it possible the German military still using these in some limited capacity?

Is it possible you could fill out your profile before posting again?

You new guys sure seem eager to post.:rolleyes:

TR

GnaM
03-25-2007, 20:09
Yeah, sorry about that, profile filled. The eagerness was meant to be ironic, as I imagine the opportunity for me to provide any kind of helpful info will be rare around here.

Buck
01-05-2010, 18:38
Speaking of AMMO.....The biggest problem I have seen and always hear about is the velocity of .223 or 5.56. You all know what I am talking about. It just zips thru the Threat, not putting him down. My question is can Military units use Hollow points or soft tipped Ammo these days. I know Contractors use them. But are our Troops still restricted to Ball Ammo??? Never heard of this rule being changed

I am loving the conversation, and information coming out of this post. Couple things I have noticed, and by no means am I am expert, jsut have shot alot of bullets, and load alot of custom loads. I've noticed people refering to barrel twists, and using certain bullet weighs based on the twist, I'd offer one other element into this, is the barrel length. I've found where in certain 1:11, 1:12 barrel twists, as long as the barrel was longer it was able to stabalise lower weight bullets, and vice versa.

Kgoerz, I noticed you mentioning bullets zipping through the threat, not putting him down, another big reason, as TR recommended to go with a higher BC bullet like a 77, 79 SMK will work wonders. My best resulets are with a 77 Nosler, 79 SMK BTHP with Varget, incredible shot groups out to 600, and a BC high enough for knockdown power.

Just thought I'd add a coule .02 cents before I continue reading, and forget. This happens as I get older.

Buck

koz
01-05-2010, 19:27
Kgoerz, I noticed you mentioning bullets zipping through the threat, not putting him down, another big reason, as TR recommended to go with a higher BC bullet like a 77, 79 SMK will work wonders. My best resulets are with a 77 Nosler, 79 SMK BTHP with Varget, incredible shot groups out to 600, and a BC high enough for knockdown power.

Buck

Do you have to single load the 79gr SMK's or will they work in a magazine? Do you have to compress the load? How much Varget for your best load? What's the OAL? Thanks in advance...

Peregrino
01-05-2010, 21:34
Buck - Where do you find 79 gr. SMKs? :munchin I've shot 1000s of 68, 69, 75, 77, and 80s (mostly SMK and Hornady) but I've never seen 79s by anybody.

koz - 77 SMK BTHPM loaded to 2.250 will fit in a magazine. I use 24.1 of RL-15. AMU goes as high as 25 (I'm not that desperate for another 50fps.) They are both compressed charges. I use the same load for 80 SMKs but OAL is 2.5 (long throat in all my match rifles). That load requires single feed; it will not fit in a magazine. Varget produces similiar results. Usual disclaimer - use at your own risk.

Buck
01-05-2010, 21:41
Do you have to single load the 79gr SMK's or will they work in a magazine? Do you have to compress the load? How much Varget for your best load? What's the OAL? Thanks in advance...

I shoot the 77 SMK with the following load data below, there is not much difference between the 77's, and 79's other then the OAL will be different, with OAL on the 77 SMK at 2.260, and the OVL on the 79 SMK at 2.550, since max OAL for AR mag is 2.260, obviously you have to single feed the 79's. I am still working, and am going to try and compress, which is why I prefer and shoot the 77's. I would recommend backing off the Varget charge a full 1.0 off what the below load data is for the 77's, and load 5 or 10 each rounds increasing .2 grains, until you reach 2700 FPS with a chronograph, which seems to work well for both the 77 and 79 SMK load. Note I shoot this load in a 1:8 twist Sabre Defense precision upper, and barrels are all different based on harmonics, so I would start .5 grains below what my load data is for the 77 SMK load, and increase .2 grains until you get the best shot groupings. I would not personally load above 24.5 grains of Varget for the 77 SMK's as max load is around 25 Grain. I've had best results with 23.5 Varget running 2700 FPS with CCI400 primers.

77 SMK Load data

Brass - I use LC, and Remington Brass - Brass trimmed to 1.750
Primer - CCI400
Powder - Varget - 23.5 Grain
AOL - 2.260

Hope this helps

Buck

Buck
01-05-2010, 21:58
I am loving the conversation, and information coming out of this post. Couple things I have noticed, and by no means am I am expert, jsut have shot alot of bullets, and load alot of custom loads. I've noticed people refering to barrel twists, and using certain bullet weighs based on the twist, I'd offer one other element into this, is the barrel length. I've found where in certain 1:11, 1:12 barrel twists, as long as the barrel was longer it was able to stabalise lower weight bullets, and vice versa.

Kgoerz, I noticed you mentioning bullets zipping through the threat, not putting him down, another big reason, as TR recommended to go with a higher BC bullet like a 77, 79 SMK will work wonders. My best resulets are with a 77 Nosler, 79 SMK BTHP with Varget, incredible shot groups out to 600, and a BC high enough for knockdown power.

Just thought I'd add a coule .02 cents before I continue reading, and forget. This happens as I get older.

Buck

Who is this old dumbass that says there is a 79 Grain SMK......

Oh, thats me, so as this is my first official, what would you call it, brain fart. Peregrino, I will need your address, and favorite, prefered drink. Be easy on me.

Buck

Peregrino
01-05-2010, 22:08
Next time do what I do - sneak back in and edit your post before everybody notices. ;)

Remember the three rules: deny everything, admit nothing, and file counter accusations.

Buck
01-05-2010, 22:10
Years of research and testing by Dynamic Research Technology (DRT) in conjunction with elite agencies world wide have created the deadliest ammunition available. This is the only ammunition used to safeguard officials and has earned the name "Dead Right There". The uniqueness of this copper-jacketed ammunition is in the compressed powder core which is as fine as talcum powder, as the bullet is fired it is spinning at such a high speed, when it reaches any part of the "target" and comes into contact with the organic tissue the hydrostatic shock of the soft material going into the hollow point actually makes the entire core projectile expand creating a fatal wound. The bullet will not pass through the "target" making it perfect for home defense or close quarter combat. Hit any part of the body to stop it dead in its tracks.

69 or 79? :confused: :munchin P

Damn, how are you editing what I write...lol I'ts a 79 Grain, see, another brainfart. I posted a 79 Grain just for you

Buck
01-05-2010, 22:18
So Mr. Miagi, I see now :munchin

Here is a lonk to that round, ssee if you can edit their site...lol

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM268-5.html

Doh, will TR or TS get pissed if I put a link in here?

Buck

Peregrino
01-05-2010, 22:45
ADMINS can do magic. That's why we use lime green and restrict our activities inside another's post to ethical or necessary (or sometimes JFTFOI) issues only.

CTD is OK, most of us have checked them out at some point. Might want to do a search here for other types of high performance ammo. We've covered this ground pretty extensively. There are also several good reloading threads; some of our members are cutting edge.

P.S. - Spell check. ;)

Buck
01-06-2010, 09:06
ADMINS can do magic. That's why we use lime green and restrict our activities inside another's post to ethical or necessary (or sometimes JFTFOI) issues only.

CTD is OK, most of us have checked them out at some point. Might want to do a search here for other types of high performance ammo. We've covered this ground pretty extensively. There are also several good reloading threads; some of our members are cutting edge.

P.S. - Spell check. ;)

Just to be clear, I wasn't endorsing this round as high performance, just that it was a 79 Grain 223 round..lol. I have bought a few things from CTD. I wouldn't consider myself cutting edge, I just enjoy reloading alot, and reload for all my guns. The 444 Marlin is the funnest round I have been playing with. In regards to the 223 loads, the 77 SMK are a great round, but as I rarely shoot out past 400 nowadays in the 223 that is. I load alot more of the 68 Grain Hornady BTHP with Varget, and have had some incredible groupings.

Buck

WholeManin2010
05-29-2010, 23:37
Anyone here have experience with Fiocchi's 55 or 62 gr. FMJBT ammunition? I got the impression that their quality is on par with most average American made plinking ammo. I am considering ordering a case of either, as they can currently be had for a fair price and free shipping.

Also, considering that the 62 gr. is not a clone of M855, and does not have the steel penetrator tip, should I expect increased accuracy due to the heavier bullet vs. the 55 grain? Will be blasting it through a piston gun with a 1:7 barrel twist.

Thanks in advance.

Irishsquid
05-30-2010, 00:05
For plinking, I use whatever I can get cheapest. For "real," ammo, I have nothing bad to say about Hornady TAP, except the cost.

Iraqgunz
05-31-2010, 14:32
I have used Fiocchi ammo and wouldn't hesitate to use it for training. Otherwise I keep Hornady 5.56 TAP #8126N loaded for anti-social purposes.

Team Sergeant
06-01-2010, 10:46
I have used Fiocchi ammo and wouldn't hesitate to use it for training. Otherwise I keep Hornady 5.56 TAP #8126N loaded for anti-social purposes.

For "anti-social purposes" I use Black Hills Ammunition 5.56, 77 Grain Sierra MatchKing ... cause everyone deserves the best, once.;)

WholeManin2010
06-01-2010, 11:38
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.

Irishsquid
06-03-2010, 00:49
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.

Never fired one at a person, so all I have to go on is "ballistic gelatin." It's not a reliable indicator...but it's what I have. That said, In gel, or jugs of water, it leaves an incredibly impressive wound track, for 5.56mm

Out of curiosity, given a lack of living targets to shoot at without going to jail, can anyone recommend a better medium than gelatin for ammunition testing?

The Reaper
06-03-2010, 03:54
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.

Depends on your ability to put them where you need to under the circumstances.

Never fired one at a person, so all I have to go on is "ballistic gelatin." It's not a reliable indicator...but it's what I have. That said, In gel, or jugs of water, it leaves an incredibly impressive wound track, for 5.56mm

Out of curiosity, given a lack of living targets to shoot at without going to jail, can anyone recommend a better medium than gelatin for ammunition testing?

Live tissue.

TR

Paslode
06-03-2010, 08:36
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.

I shot a deer a couple years ago with a Blackhills 77gr SMK the deer walked like 3 yds and fell over with little signs of bleeding. Entry wound was in the front armpit, never found a exit hole but it was like a bomb went off internally, the sternum was already split and made field dressing little bit quicker.

WholeManin2010
06-05-2010, 20:57
[QUOTE=The Reaper;333733]Depends on your ability to put them where you need to under the circumstances.

Got it, Sir. That said, should one expect widely different results between the two (BH and TAP) at a live target - both fired from 10 and 100 meters, respectively, and both striking center mass?

Team Sergeant
06-05-2010, 21:41
I shot a deer a couple years ago with a Blackhills 77gr SMK the deer walked like 3 yds and fell over with little signs of bleeding. Entry wound was in the front armpit, never found a exit hole but it was like a bomb went off internally, the sternum was already split and made field dressing little bit quicker.

Last time I was hunting I just showed the deer (a twelve pointer) I was using Black Hills Ammo and it just laid down and died.;)

Team Sergeant

frostfire
06-11-2010, 22:58
For "anti-social purposes" I use Black Hills Ammunition 5.56, 77 Grain Sierra MatchKing ... cause everyone deserves the best, once.;)

Would that be the civilian version of the MK262 ?
Used to get some from the AMU years ago. Excellent grouping at 600yds (with good wind doping)
Never knew the terminal effect is that devastating, Paslode.

The Reaper
06-12-2010, 10:01
Got it, Sir. That said, should one expect widely different results between the two (BH and TAP) at a live target - both fired from 10 and 100 meters, respectively, and both striking center mass?

You can't make a head shot at 10 meters with an M4?

TR

WholeManin2010
06-13-2010, 09:16
You can't make a head shot at 10 meters with an M4?

TR

Most certainly can, Sir. I was really just wondering how different one round's destructive characteristics might be from the other, from the same rifle and varied distance -- and assuming that the shooter hit where he meant to. For example, Paslode mentioned what the BH 77gr did to his quarry; I'd be interested in knowing how the 75gr TAP would have acted under similar circumstances.

Animal8526
06-14-2010, 09:36
Whats the heaviest load that still fits into magazine length? I keep hearing mention of 75 grainers and above... sure makes 62 grains seem like a slouch.

The Reaper
06-14-2010, 10:40
Whats the heaviest load that still fits into magazine length? I keep hearing mention of 75 grainers and above... sure makes 62 grains seem like a slouch.


You can get 100 grain .223 projos. Not going to be moving very fast in a 5.56x45 though.

TR

Sinister
06-14-2010, 10:57
Precision 5.56mm ammunition has evolved from the initial tasking by Colonel Mac Johnson, USAMU Commander, to the Army Rifle Team gunsmiths back in the early 90s.

The force does not shoot M14s. His tasking and direction was to make the M16 a Camp Perry-winning platform. The rest is history as the rifles left the shop to "Let the ass-kickings begin."

The M16 has since broken nearly all M14 records including the Interservice 10-man team score that stood for over 25 years.

The 69-grain Sierra Match King is roughly the same length as the M855 Ball bullet -- the solid lead core weighs slightly more than Green Tip's steel penetrator but is a hell of a lot more accurate to 500 yards. It is more sensitive to wind past 300 yards than heavier bullets but provided the Army Team with the highest "X-count" on NRA targets at 200 and 300 yards.

The Berger 73 is the most accurate "Heavy" to 300-500. It was tested and used for several seasons, however it is also blown around a little more than 75s and 77s at 300, 500, and 600 yards (where the M16 is expected to hit E-type silhouettes in the rapid-fire National Infantry Trophy Team Match). The reason it is not the bullet in Mark 262 is Walt and Eunice Berger retired in the critical period when competitive teams needed a consistent bullet source and no one knew whether or not Berger bullets would be produced after Walt retired -- hence Hornady 75s and Sierra 77s got the nod).

Both 69s and 73s generally shoot well in 1-9 twist or faster commercial barrels.

Hornady 75s and 77s are good bullets to 500-600 yards. They fly true and hit where you aim. You get more kills because the bullets go where pointed (as opposed to GI Green Tip with wildly varying lot-to-lot accuracy). Directly after 9-11 a 5th Group truck arrived at the AMU ammo dock and left with a metric ass-load of 77s for SPRs.

Powell River Laboratories and DRT ammunition use the same sintered tungsten and polymer core frangible bullets designed by "Bubba" Beal in Tennessee. With cores heavier than lead they fly true at long to very long range and hit well -- they are, however, designed to come apart if they contact something hard (walls, steel, etc.).

The heaviest (limited availability) lead-core magazine-length bullet is the Hornady 82-grain for hand loaders.

None of this makes a bit of difference if you can't hit the damn target -- paper, animal, goblin, or Hajji.

Most M4gery shooters don't shoot much past 50-100 yards. Someone who doesn't handload will do well with 55-grain plain box Winchester, Federal, etc.

jatx
06-14-2010, 11:00
Hmm, I may need to look around for some pics of what the 75 gr. TAP will do to a wild pig...fun to say the least! ;)

Streck-Fu
06-15-2010, 09:36
Whats the heaviest load that still fits into magazine length? I keep hearing mention of 75 grainers and above... sure makes 62 grains seem like a slouch.

Are talking about staying within the 5.56x45 cartridge or another cartridge (6.8 SPC for example) that will fit within the magazine?

WholeManin2010
06-15-2010, 10:54
Precision 5.56mm ammunition has evolved from the initial tasking by Colonel Mac Johnson, USAMU Commander, to the Army Rifle Team gunsmiths back in the early 90s...

Great information... Thanks for this!

Animal8526
08-23-2010, 21:59
Are talking about staying within the 5.56x45 cartridge or another cartridge (6.8 SPC for example) that will fit within the magazine?

5.56.

I regularly shoot my AR's out to 450 yds. If one of the local F&G clubs gets what they're planning done, I'll be able to shoot 5.56 out to 600, and shoot my grendel out to 1K.

I'm a big fan of equipping for the mission at hand. 55gr rounds are great for training. But, having just gotten into handloading, I want to figure out with as few variations as possible what the best loadings are going to be for:

A.) work on soft targets from 0-400 yds out of 1/9 16" barrels.

B.) work on soft targets out to 600 with maximum "oomph" and precision out of 1/8.5 20" douglas barrel.

The grendel is a whole nother animal. 140gn AMAX projos for work under 500yds, 123gn AMAX for work over 500.

brianksain
09-09-2010, 09:39
Edited

Gold Eagle
09-30-2010, 19:49
Any load approximating the issue M193 such as the Winchester Q3131A or Federal American Eagle would be my generic choice.

Look for a 55 grain bullet with a cannelure.

If you want a more expensive precision round, the 62-69 grain match HPs should shoot well in your rifle.

For light game, I would take any of the heavier bullets in a bonded version.

For varmints, the lighter bullets.

For two legged game, the M193 clones should do just fine.

Avoid Wolf and unknown foreign surplus. Others may have a different opinion, this has been discussed here several times if you want to look it up.

I also enjoy the .22 conversion kit for plinking and CB cap use.

TR

T R what 22 conversion do you recommend at this time? Thanks

The Reaper
10-16-2010, 16:21
I have the Ciener and the Spikes.

The Ciener runs well, but is the most difficult company to deal with I have ever encountered.

My Spikes does not run, even after being returned to the factory. Other who have them love theirs.

TR

Paslode
10-16-2010, 16:41
Last time I was hunting I just showed the deer (a twelve pointer) I was using Black Hills Ammo and it just laid down and died.;)

Team Sergeant

It is getting knee deep! That ranks right up there with Cousin Randy's TALL tales :D

WholeManin2010
08-12-2011, 14:38
Anyone here have experience with Fiocchi's 55 or 62 gr. FMJBT ammunition? I got the impression that their quality is on par with most average American made plinking ammo. I am considering ordering a case of either, as they can currently be had for a fair price and free shipping.

Also, considering that the 62 gr. is not a clone of M855, and does not have the steel penetrator tip, should I expect increased accuracy due to the heavier bullet vs. the 55 grain? Will be blasting it through a piston gun with a 1:7 barrel twist.

Thanks in advance.

I've purchased and fired 1000+ rounds of each weight since this post. BLUF -- I think that better ammo can be had for equal or less money.

The 62 grain (no penetrator, not an M855 clone) worked just fine, and had it not been for issues with the 55 grain rounds, I would consider purchasing it again.

The lighter stuff was prone to blowing primers clean out of the pockets. Good thing I always wear eye pro. Most of the time, the spent primer flew out alongside the expended brass. A few times it made its way into the chamber, which kept the bolt face from seating fully, giving me the closest thing to an FTF that I've ever experienced with my LMT. This happened with about 50 rounds out of 1200.

Interestingly enough, when I purchased the case of 55gr, the folks selling it were very excited about how "hot" it was, mentioning that they'd chrony'd it at some pretty blistering speeds. Seems this (overpressure?) is the likely culprit.

Federal/Winchester/PMC it is.

Irishsquid
08-12-2011, 17:51
Hmm, I may need to look around for some pics of what the 75 gr. TAP will do to a wild pig...fun to say the least! ;)



I didn't take any pictures, but a friend recently called about a problem he was having with wild pigs. I took my rifle and a couple boxes of TAP with me. I will say the round performs quite well in live tissue. Much better than it did in gelatin, in fact. Also, it was a helluva fun weekend.

I'll get pictures next time I head out there.

Gold Eagle
02-28-2014, 00:22
Is this considered too hot? Would this wear out a AR prematurely?
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100001635&dir=18|830|845

Streck-Fu
02-28-2014, 06:47
Is this considered too hot? Would this wear out a AR prematurely?
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100001635&dir=18|830|845

Too hot? No. What is your planned use? It is best used in a 1/7 barrel.

If it's truely a MK262 replica, muzzle velocity is in the 2700fps range.

Gold Eagle
02-28-2014, 11:17
Just curious. Would use to just try out long range and SHTF use maybe. Thanks!