The chicken or the egg

[Michelle]

AKA.... how old/injured is too old/injured.

Requesting feedback.

Am in a strange spot in life right now.... injuries have had me out of the game for a bit now. These are the typical "old injuries" that resurface from time to time and each time they resurface, they resurface with a little more viciousness.

The thing is, each time they resurface, the common denominator seems to be its because I've slacked on my PT. 2005 was a year I slacked big time.... training went out the window... the gym went out the window... my usual routine got changed up. So now I pay the price.

OTOH, I've had several people tell me the bottom line is more about age, and the deterioration process inherent to injuries that is taking its toll. That's a sad thing for me to swallow. That I need to chill out a bit... it's part of life, and dealing with a damaged body.

What are people's thoughts on this? The title of the thread is because I view it in that way. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or to put it in terms regarding this issue, does training hard cause functional breakdown of the body over time, or is it the cessation of training hard that leaves us vulnerable to the body going sideways?

I know which answer I WANT it to be. But I also fully realize I am quite possibly coming from a case of denial.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

m1

[The Reaper]

M:

I hate to tell you this, and I am a little older than you, but I wish that I had learned earlier the difference between healthy muscle-exertion pain and damaging my body pain.

Many time, I just gutted it out, and now I realize that was usually a mistake. I have several pain meds, depending on the severity, and it takes me a while to get moving in the mornings. This sort of musculo-skeletal damage will get worse over time, and will manifest itself by neat things like arthritis. There are many on here in worse shape from that than me.

If you are fighting for your life, you can suck it up. Otherwise, if I do not know it to be simple pain from exertion, I stop and figure out a way to do it pain free. Sometimes, pain is really nature's way of telling you to stop that. There are plenty of conditioning exercises that will not injure you in the process. You aren't getting any younger, start treating your body decently.

I hope that you know the difference and apply the knowledge before you get to this state.

TR

[Michelle]

Thank you for the wise words Sir Reaper. I understand what you are saying.

I understand that there are things I can't do anymore, and I'm okay with that. White water rafting and jousting aren't part of my future anymore and I can deal with that.

I'm just having a hard time with how much I need to sacrafice. A very wise person recently said to me "we train as we fight". That's important. And being faced with people telling me "you really need to quit the dojo and take up water ballet" is something I find myself not wanting to accept. I don't see myself training to beat someone about the head with a swim cap. Then again, a life of permanently being on vicodin is not on my list of goals either.

I guess I'm just stubbornly fighting for a happy meduim.

Thank you again. I will read and heed.

m1

[The Reaper]

M1:

No one can answer that for you, but you.

I would suggest asking some older people who have skills that you admire and who seem to be in good shape how they do it. It may be that they are lliving as compromised lifestyle and you are unaware of it.

All of the stuff I have broken over the years, whether for sport, work, or fun hurts now. I do not plan to add to the list any more than I have to. At the same time, I believe that I have sufficient skills to defend myself against most likely threats except old age.

How do you think you will be doing in the dojo at 70? 80? If you quit before that, how will you know when to quit?

In the immortal words of Toby Keith, "I ain't as young as I once was, but I'm as good once, as I ever was."

As we have told many people here, good SA and run-fu will get you out of most fights without having to be a participant in them. As you get older, you learn to avoid dnagerous situations. An old guy told my brother one time, "Son, you will never have to run from a fight if you start walking away soon enough."

True words.

Is hard training and combatives part of your preparation, or part of your lifestyle? If it is fun for you and is part of your conditioning program, you might want to start looking for alternatives that you enjoy. Tai Chi looks like good low-impact exercise.

Best of luck to you regardless. Once I hit 40, it started taking longer to prep and recover every year. Of course, I also know three guys in their mid-70s still working hard every day and jumping with students, so what do I know about aging?

TR

[Kyobanim]

There's a ton of truths in the Reaper said.

"you really need to quit the dojo and take up water ballet" is something I find myself not wanting to accept"Then don't accept it.

These are probably things you already know but they're worth repeating . . . Take longer warm ups and spend more time stretching than you used too. When you go to work out the plan isn't to kill yourself but to stay in the best shape you possibly can. Vitamin suppliments will help as well as a diet that fits your body's needs. You Doc probably can give you an assist since he/she know's your body's shape the best.

I opened my school at 50. I noticed 2 important things when I did that. 1. You hurt a lot more training 5 hours a day 5 days a week verses training 3 days and 2 hours a week, and 2. I actually got better after I started spending more time preparing for classes. My doc helped a lot with that. I plan on going until I can't stand up any more.

This is a good subject, I hope others chime in here.

[The Reaper]

IAW Kyo's comments, my general thoughts would be, as we get older and more experienced, stretching/range of motion/reps good, straining/impact/excess/max weight lifts bad.

TR

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

IAW Kyo's comments, my general thoughts would be, as we get older and more experienced, stretching/range of motion/reps good, straining/impact/excess/max weight lifts bad.

TR

Yup, and I am the poster child for that statement! So grasshopper it's like this, your brain and your body are out of harmony. Your brain, thinking that all it has to do is come up with ideas and direct actions for you to take based on things that make it feel happy tells you that you have not aged, are still immortal, and nothing is impossible. Your body finally succumbs to its inability to achieve those grand ideas and lofty goals and sends pain back to your brain as a way of telling it that actions, not ideas, have consequences. Your brain withdraws and waits for you to heal, sudues the memory of the most recent pain, adds ego to the equation and the cycle repeats itself with your body sending even more severe pain back to your brain again. So in the real world harmony is achieved by learning that you are going to get stung everytime you kick over the beehive or figuring out other ways to destroy that beehive so as not to get stung. Asymetric warfare works. Recognize your limitations and maximize your strengths to achieve realistic goals.

Jack Moroney-need to go take more motrin:D

[ghuinness]

You might also want to check Glucosamine and Chondroitin:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4969&highlight=DMSO

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

my .02

[lksteve]

when i retired from the Army, i went to the VA to have the damage assessed...after reviewing the x-rays, the doc asked if i was the guy in the picture, so to speak...i said i was and he asked me what i was doing for a fitness routine...i told him i was a land surveyor, doing quite abit of field work...his advice to me was to keep doing what i was doing, because if i decided to sit in the rocking chair for awhile, i wasn't going to get back out of it...

prudent activity is the way to deal with osteoarthritis...so i am told...i keep active, walking ( i cannot run...i have tried, but i don't want to make any more chiropractors/physical therapists richer than i have to), hiking and surveying...

the older you get, the less you can afford to have slack time...you might need to relook what you do for fitness, but you need to find something that fits you current station in life and go from there...

like the bumper sticker says, "Getting Old Ain't for Sissies..."
it's just another opportunity to suck it up and drive on...

[Cincinnatus]

Michelle,

As I've previously posted asking for help dealing w/ chronic (at times debilitating pain), I'm not sure I've found "the" answer, but here are some things that seem to work for me (or at least help.)

First, "counting my blessings", there're actually studies that show that doing this can help with depression and that this is one of the few "cognitive techiques" that can be shown to work clinically. When my back hurts, I remind myself that it hurt far worse a few years ago. When my hip hurts, I remind myself that only one hip hurts, that it's hurt worse, that I'm not dragging a withered leg around like a guy I saw at Penney's, not in a wheelchair, etc.

When Mom was dying, I reminded myself that she was home, under a tight roof, we could afford the meds she needed, she had folks who loved her to care for her, etc. It sounds PollyAnnaish, but it works.

I also find that thinking of it as discomfort, instead of pain, helps... a little. LOL

Taking ibuprofen before working out, or engaging in any activity that's likely to exacerbate your injuries will often help. Forty five minutes to an hour beforehand works best for me. Ibuprofen and acetaminephine taken together after working out can also help, the two complement one another, ibu works on swelling and inflammation, APAP on pain, most people experience a synergystic effect. There's a danger in taking too much of either compound, but as long as you stay within recommended doses, you should be ok.

Stronger pain meds may also help, but there are risks to be considered. Dependcy or addiction are the ones that come to mind for most people, but taking pain killers for prolonged periods can also increase risk of depression. If you are on pain meds so strong that they mask your pain completely you are at risk for futher injury, as your body can't signal, through pain, that you're overusing/ misusing, whatever part of the body is injured.

I'll take strong analgesics if the pain is really intense, but start tapering off as soon as I can. I find it effective to "nuke" severe pain for a day or two and then go to a less powerful painkiller.

Sleeping well not only helps the body recover, but if you're well rested it's easier to deal with pain and I find I'm less likely to get pissy and take it out on those around me. YMMV.

The "Warrior Wellness" joint strength workout from Scott Sonnon, that I posted about previously has paid real dividends for me. In fact, for the last couple of years I've been using a cane if I was going to be doing much walking particulary on pavement or cobblestones, I didn't "need" it to walk, but if I would set aside my pride and use it, I found I was in less pain at the end of the day. Recently, I've been doing more and more without the cane and I attribute this to the Sonnon workout. I'm not painfree, but the improvement is pretty dramatic.

Finally, see a PT. My sister has experienced GREAT improvement since going to one. Do your research as there are way too many bozos in this field, but if you find the right person, they can be a huge help.

HTH.

PS - D'oohh! Forgot something really important. A good massage therapist can be an enormous help in recovering from injury. Not one who does "Swedish" massage, or any of the soothing type massages, as pleasant as they can be, but someone who gives deep tissue therapeutic massage and will really dig into knots and work to break up scar tissue and adhesions. Distinctly unfun (read quite painful) but beneficial over the course of several sessions.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Yup, and I am the poster child for that statement! So grasshopper it's like this, your brain and your body are out of harmony. Your brain, thinking that all it has to do is come up with ideas and direct actions for you to take based on things that make it feel happy tells you that you have not aged, are still immortal, and nothing is impossible. Your body finally succumbs to its inability to achieve those grand ideas and lofty goals and sends pain back to your brain as a way of telling it that actions, not ideas, have consequences. Your brain withdraws and waits for you to heal, sudues the memory of the most recent pain, adds ego to the equation and the cycle repeats itself with your body sending even more severe pain back to your brain again. So in the real world harmony is achieved by learning that you are going to get stung everytime you kick over the beehive or figuring out other ways to destroy that beehive so as not to get stung. Asymetric warfare works. Recognize your limitations and maximize your strengths to achieve realistic goals.

Jack Moroney-need to go take more motrin:D

I have to agree with what you have said here Sir! I also find that in time the Doctors with whom you deal with will attempt to restrict some of the things you may want to do, or do on a regular basis. One must decide on their own, if they are going to heed such prohibatations and/or changes to their life styles.

My doctor has ordered me not to SCUBA dive, based on a heart problem (extra beat, etc.) I have decided that I will continue to dive; however, will limit it to tropical (Warm water) diving and discontinue cold water diving in my own AO. I decided to stop the cold water diving because of the extra equipment, etc.

Over all, my decision to continue to dive was based on we are all going to die (No one leaves here alive.) I could die from the same heart problem, behind the wheel of my car or anywhere. If I die while diving, at least die doing something I love to do! I was 75 years old yesterday, so time marches on!

One thing that I would warn people in retirement of, is allowing yourself to get inactive and overweight, which will cause you many problems. (Couch Potato. ) One of which would be type II diabetes. I have many retired friends, that have come down with type II diabetes, since their retirement. Some have lost legs and feet from the disease. One can also have vision problems, strokes and heart attacks as well.

[Mancw]

Michele,

I agree with the vast majority of what has already been said. I’m not real old at 45, but certainly not as young as I use to be. I don’t lift heavy anymore and tone my workouts in a manor with exercise for life in mind. I do at least something everyday, even if it’s stretching only… do something.

I’ve stayed in pretty good shape, better than most my age, that I know. I combine weights (relatively light) and body weight exercises. Do what you can every day, remember that it took time to get into your current condition and will take time to recover or get better – don’t expect overnight miracles. So many times I’ve seen people set their short-term goals so high that its not realistic… they are then frustrated when the goals are not achieved.

I wish you the very best – good luck,

Mancw