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APLP
12-17-2005, 04:11
Just starting to sort through the data from last weeks live fire demonstration.
Multiple caliber, and specific weapon platform comparative impacts were
conducted.

The below hind quarter tissue impact was made with the Le Mas military/law
enforcement CQB 9mm AP bullet. All government protocols were complied
with during these tissue impacts. SME medical experts were on site during the demonstration.

The weapon utilized during the below impact was the 10.5 inch Colt 9mm Olympic Arms upper with AR-15 lower receiver. When fired from this system the 9mm AP ammunition averages 2450 fps and will defeat 1/4 inch stainless steel and all non NIJ 2.7 special application soft armors. Multiple single target, single round, rear ham tissue impacts with the CQB 9mm AP bullet, created greater tissue destructions than either M-855 or M-262 5.56 ammunition when fired from a 12 inch 1/7 twist barrel. The M-855 bullet provided greater living tissue destructions with respect to both thoracic cavity and rear ham appendage impacts than did the M-262 from the 12 inch barrel, however both respective conventional currently procurred 5.56 bullet designs were dramatically inferior to the BMT Le Mas Ltd. Short Range AP LW 5.56 ammunition.

With respect to the above mentioned 9mm and 5.56 ammunition only the M-855 and M-262 5.56 ammunition over penetrated the targets.

It is important to note that this same Le Mas Ltd. AP BMT 9mm bullet design shown impacting live tissue below was predicted by ballistic expert Gary Roberts, to create less tissue destruction than conventional handgun hollow point bullet designs. A government report published by Gary Roberts in March 2002, documented the Le Mas Ltd. AP 9mm bullet design as penetrating 18 inches into ballistic gelatin with no expansion and little bullet fragmentation noted. Mr. Roberts has stated that the claimed non comparable performance for the Le Mas Ltd. armor piercing handgun bullet designs between ballistic gelatin and living tissue are blatently false.

The below non gelatin based bullet performance data would suggest that these hogs did not read the Gary Roberts report, and as such were not compliant to his ballistic expert assessments and predictions. Additional data to follow as it becomes available.

swatsurgeon
12-17-2005, 08:16
just for the non-believers....it is real, I was there dissecting tissue and seeing with my own eyes the devistating wounding the 9mm Le Mas round caused. Amazing that NONE of the Le Mas rounds (rifle or pistol) over penetrated the animals but conventional bullet designs did and if my commrades were potentially behind or around the bad guy, they could possibly be shot/injured by a 'pass through' which makes the shooting operator potentially not take the shot.
There is no question that anyone hit in the arm or leg with this round will not be using that limb unlike regular bullet designs, that may do damage but may not cause incapacitation of that limb, i.e., they could still be supporting themselves to take another shot at you.
ss

Team Sergeant
12-17-2005, 09:05
just for the non-believers....it is real, I was there dissecting tissue and seeing with my own eyes the devistating wounding the 9mm Le Mas round caused. Amazing that NONE of the Le Mas rounds (rifle or pistol) over penetrated the animals but conventional bullet designs did and if my commrades were potentially behind or around the bad guy, they could possibly be shot/injured by a 'pass through' which makes the shooting operator potentially not take the shot.
There is no question that anyone hit in the arm or leg with this round will not be using that limb unlike regular bullet designs, that may do damage but may not cause incapacitation of that limb, i.e., they could still be supporting themselves to take another shot at you.
ss

Funny but I've never seen a bona fide Trauma surgeon offer actual first hand comments concerning this ammunition on a public board.The only comments I've read were usually just wannabes that have never seen this ammo function.

Its beneficial to have a "real" trauma surgeon (or two) on board for authentic critical analysis instead of snake oil salesmen.

Thank you Doctor for your time.

Team Sergeant

swatsurgeon
12-17-2005, 11:53
Thank you Team Sergeant.....
I am presently writing an article on this ammunition and hope to have it published in something like the Tactical Edge, Police Magazine or similiar as well as here so that military personnel can also read my thoughts and observations on the flaws of past and present "ballistic gelatin" testing of this ammo. This ammo needs to be in the right hands: LEO, military spec-ops, etc.

ss

APLP
12-17-2005, 13:33
I was told by the director of a US Government procurement structure two years ago that the US military could never embrace or procure a bullet design that did not demonstrate conventional bullet performance guidelines in gelatin.

He further stated that living tissue data would never be considered a valid performance medium from which ammunition designs could be procured.

Ballistic gelatin is the performance medium from which all small arms ammunition is designed, tested, and procured for both the US military and law enforcement communities.

The same Le Mas Ltd. armor piercing 9mm CQB bullet design predicted by Gary Roberts to perform in living tissue similar to FMJ ammunition in living tissue is again shown below.

The Reaper
12-17-2005, 18:19
Swatsurgeon:

I know that you are aware of this, but note the number of "experts" who have never fired a round who will pop out of the woodwork to call you a shill, a charlatan, a fraud, and other names too bad to print once you tell the truth.

This many people talking bad about it, has to be the result of a coordinated effort. Wonder who is behind it and what is their motivation?

Thanks for speaking the truth and telling it like it is.

TR

Spartan359
12-21-2005, 14:28
What distance was that fired from APLP?

APLP
12-21-2005, 15:52
What distance was that fired from APLP?

Most ballistic gelatin impacts take place at 5 yards, some folks measure 5 meters, and very few impacts are made past 100 yards. The above impacts were made from a fixed firing position at 5 yards. Both FMJ and conventional non armor piercing hollow points would have exited both thoracic cavity and rear appendages.

The same impact distance was also utilized for the 5.56 comparative impacts.
From the short barreled 5.56 weapon systems the currently procured M-855 and M-262 rounds will provide greatly reduced bullet fragmentation when impacting real tissue beyond 25 yards. The Le Mas AP rounds will still provide complete fragmentation at much farther distances when impacting living tissue. All of the conducted M-855 and M-262 thoracic and rear appendage impacts exited the targets at 5 yards and will also over penetrate the target at a distance greater than 100 yards.

Stan

APLP
12-24-2005, 01:40
The below impacts were made with the Le Mas Ltd. Armor Piercing 9mm CQB fired from a Glock handgun.

APLP
12-24-2005, 01:49
Le Mas Ltd. Armor Piercing 9mm CQB bulle through 3/16 inch stainless, 3A soft armor, and 3A hard armor into 60 pound block of clay.