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Doc
11-24-2005, 20:58
Reloading discussion moved from another thread.

Thanks R.B.

Doc
11-28-2005, 18:45
I'm going to start hand-loading my .270's in the near future. Anyone have any thoughts on reloading?

Doc

lksteve
12-08-2005, 23:12
I'm probably going to start hand-loading my .270's in the near future. If nobody minds, I start a new thread on that endeavor when I get there. hmmm...what kind of press are you getting...?

Doc
12-09-2005, 06:07
hmmm...what kind of press are you getting...?

I have never hand-loaded before and open to suggestions in all aspects of this endeavor.

Thanks,

Doc

lksteve
12-09-2005, 09:59
I have never hand-loaded before and open to suggestions in all aspects of this endeavor. depends...if all i were going to load was ammunition for a bolt-action rifle, where accuracy was Job #1, i would get an RCBS Rock Chucker or something like that...you load one round at a time, one component at a time...it is slow, but you are handcrafting each round...if you plan on doing a good deal of shooting in the semi-automatic mode, with either rifle or pistol, i'd recommend a Dillon progressive press...i have an RL 500 from around 1987 that i need to send back for reconditioning that works well...you can reload individual rounds in the same fashion as an RCBS, but you can also crank out a boxload of pistol or 5.56 rounds, as well...

my $0.02

longrange1947
12-09-2005, 10:17
Doc - I would look at getting one of the RCBS Rock chucker kits first. A lot of guys have started hand loading and have found it to be too tedious for their tastes. They soon lose interest and are out a bunch of money if they go high end right off the bat. The nice thing about the rock chucker is that it is versatile and can become your back up your progressive breaks down or needs to go in for anything. It also gets you started and allows you to have the basics that will be needed regardless of the press you wind up using. If you are only going to load for accuracy then that is all you need.

Be careful though, this can become a very addictive hobby with thousands of dollars spent for that last little .001 moa of accuracy. :D

The Reaper
12-09-2005, 11:00
Concur with the Rockchucker.

I started loading for IPSC with one, eventually retiring it for match loading only, using a Dillon 550 for mass production.

If I were only going to do match or hunting loads, I would still get the Rockchucker. If I were running 1000 rounds at the time, I would go with the 550 or 650 from Dillon.

HTH.

TR

Peregrino
12-09-2005, 11:12
Be careful though, this can become a very addictive hobby with thousands of dollars spent for that last little .001 moa of accuracy. :D

Doc - LR1947 is right on the money. If you're going to reload go to Midway or one of the other discounters and buy the RCBS Master Kit. It'll get you started for a reasonable price and everything needed (for entry level reloading) is conveniently bundled. It'll get you started and let you learn. If it works out and you realize enough benefits to get hooked on it then you can start doing the process analysis and throwing money at the problem. Every little incremental improvement after that will cost more - sometimes lots more, either time or money and they're both valuable. FWIW - I've still got (and use) the same Rockchucker I bought in 1981. My Dillon is 14 y/o and going strong. And I'm still spending money to "improve" the process. It's a never ending battle. HTH - Peregrino

P.S. - You will need that quality scope (and excellent record keeping) to realize the full potential of your reloading efforts.

Edited to add: I followed a similar route to TR's though I've actually gone to loading even match rifle ammo on the Dillon. The only rounds I "tweak" are the ones I use at 600m for competition. (I'm not a benchrest shooter - the Dillon gives me one round of moa(-) ammo every time I pull the handle which is all I need at the shorter ranges.)

ChandlerSniper
12-09-2005, 11:27
Doc,

I think I have an old rock crusher in a box downstairs.. I`ll look and see whats there. I`ll let ya know what I find.

longrange1947
12-09-2005, 12:48
Also known as thumb crusher when not paying attention. :eek:

HOLLiS
12-09-2005, 13:11
I would like to add my thoughts. Some thoughts would be depending on what you want to load for and how many rounds you plane to load for would help in press choice. The Reaper brought mentioned that. I have a Orange crusher (Lyman, had rock crushers) and two 550B's.

Obviously for massive reloading, Dillion, IMHO, is the only way to go. If your doing small loads amounts, say 50 for pistol, RCBS basic kit. Also for target rifle, Neck sizing is all that is needed if the brass will be used in the same rifle, full length sizing will over stress the brass faster. Again the RCBS is a good way to go. I use a RCBS primer seater for precision loads, slower but a better feel.

Problem with Dillion, it is hard to go back to a single stage press after using one. It is a very versatile press though, more expensive. It does a decent job even for more accurate loads too.

But Boys being Boys given time, if you get into reloading, there will come a time where you will need more space for reloading equipment and shortage of equipment won't be a issue. I load for 36 different cartridges, 5 shotgun gauges, and have to form a few cases that are no longer available. I mentioned to a friend, Reloading is to shooting as foreplay is to sex. I have been reloading for over 30 years, and I still have could add to my reloading equipment. Neat stuff out there.

longtab
12-09-2005, 14:08
Obviously for massive reloading, Dillion, IMHO, is the only way to go. If your doing small loads amounts, say 50 for pistol, RCBS basic kit.

I was raised as a kid with an RCBS Rockchucker on the work bench so its pretty much all I know. But Dillon has them beats hand down with their calendars and posters! :D
5140

lksteve
12-09-2005, 15:12
Problem with Dillion, it is hard to go back to a single stage press after using one. It is a very versatile press though, more expensive. It does a decent job even for more accurate loads too.i agee with TR regarding match loads...while i got decent results with the Dillon, i got much better results loading one round at a time, using a powder trickler to get my powder weights rights...i'd say the Dillon was within 1-5% in terms of powder weight, while i could get right to the gnat's back using a powder scale...once again, my $0.02...

Team Sergeant
12-09-2005, 15:29
I was raised as a kid with an RCBS Rockchucker on the work bench so its pretty much all I know. But Dillon has them beats hand down with their calendars and posters! :D
5140


Funny that the guy that takes these pictures for Dillion is supposed to be a "former" 5th Gp SF soldier. Everytime I've gone to Dillion (even with another former 5th Gp Vietnam Vet) this guy always seems to be "gone".

Everytime time I've gone, I've asked to meet him, everytime time I was told "he's here, let me go get him" and when I tell them I'm also a former 5th Gp Soldier he is always "out to lunch".

Funny....

Anyone know if he's really a 5th Gp Vietnam vet?

Sorry Doc for the Hi-jack....

TS

Doc
12-09-2005, 15:36
Thanks for the replies. I'll start out as suggested and see how it goes. I don't shoot the .270 a lot. Maybe 20-40 rounds a month at the nearby range. I have always wanted to reload, so now is as good a time as any to start.

Scotty,

Go ahead with the optics plan if you will. I will wait and see what you come up with on the re-loader too. Thanks a bunch for your help.

Doc

Doc
12-09-2005, 15:39
Sorry Doc for the Hi-jack....

TS

No problem TS.

Doc

HOLLiS
12-09-2005, 15:42
I was raised as a kid with an RCBS Rockchucker on the work bench so its pretty much all I know. But Dillon has them beats hand down with their calendars and posters! :D
5140

Dang, I wish I had weapons instructors and co-students like those in the posters.....

HOLLiS
12-09-2005, 15:46
i agee with TR regarding match loads...while i got decent results with the Dillon, i got much better results loading one round at a time, using a powder trickler to get my powder weights rights...i'd say the Dillon was within 1-5% in terms of powder weight, while i could get right to the gnat's back using a powder scale...once again, my $0.02...

I use a Lyman electronic trickle scale for my "precision" loads. They are 338 Win Mag, and 300 Ultra Mag. If I had it to do again, I am not sure I would have not gone to the RCBS or PACT, scale/measure combo if I had to buy one again.

Gene Econ
12-09-2005, 22:19
Thanks for the replies. I'll start out as suggested and see how it goes. I don't shoot the .270 a lot. Maybe 20-40 rounds a month at the nearby range. I have always wanted to reload, so now is as good a time as any to start. Doc

Doc:

I will head in a different direction from conventional wisdom.

Redding Presses and Redding Competition Rifle Dies.

You want an inexpensive kit to start with? Believe it or not -- get a Lee kit that has its Classic Cast press. Cost will be under $150.00 for the kit and you will never get rid of the press or powder measure. The rest of the stuff will eventually break and Lee dies aren't real good. However, it is sufficient for producing good ammo and is cheap enough for you to determine if you want to continue in hand loading.

I use a number of presses and reloading items. I don't care who makes them -- only that they give me the results I want. Redding gives the results.

Sure, I have a Rock Chucker. Have owned it for twenty five years. It has one purpose in my loading area. I have a collet bullet puller on it and use it to pull bullets. I do use one piece of RCBS gear for loading. I bought a bench primer seater at a gun show for ten dollars and it is very handy when seating primers.

Oh yes, what ever you get -- get someone who has loaded many thousands of rounds over the years to take you step by step through your process. Ensure he has all ten fingers and both eyes are original. That is an indicator that the guy knows what he is doing with hand loading. An indicator of a fellow you may not want to walk you through this process is one who tells you that the loading manuals always go low on powder charges due to liability issues. Such guys should be avoided, particularly when they are 'testing loads' on a range.

Have fun -- I have been handloading for close to thirty years and although it is boring as hell, it is a fine way to learn about cartridge and bullet design.

Gene

longrange1947
12-09-2005, 22:45
OK Doc, from what I can see you need a Dillon/RCBS/Lee/Redding. :D :munchin

Heartily agree with Gene on the advice of getting a guy that has reloaded for more than a bit and have him hand carry you through the process.

Do not allow your self to get distracted. It is tedious and can get monotonous, and the mind can wonder. Double check and triple check. Do not place a bullet on an empty case and do not double charge a case. Go slow and deliberate.

Above all, have fun!

The Reaper
12-09-2005, 23:00
In my experience, weighing powder charges has a lot less to do with accuracy than prepping cases properly, picking the right bullets, and loading ammo to the proper specs for your weapon.

I cut my groups in half when I started prepping cases, in half again when I selected the right bullets for the job, and in half another time when I learned that loading to the proper seating depth off the rifling is critical to accuracy and keeping peak pressure down.

Just my experience.

Good seeing you yesterday LR and Longtab.

TR

HOLLiS
12-10-2005, 03:07
Gollu I forgot about Lee, they make great stuff, and generally people under rate it because of price. On a single stage press, I used two sets of loading trays.

1) place cases in the first tray, when you resize them they go into the the second tray, right handed cases to be resized on the tray on the right, resized cases go on the empty tray on the left.

2) now switch trays, (assuming rt handedness). Prime the cases, the cases are placed in the empty tray on the left up side down. This allows you to check the primer seating.

3) switch trays, the primed cases are on your right, upside down, flip them up and charge them, and place them on the tray to your left, right side up. This allows you to check the powder depths and insures each case gets charged.

4) switch trays, the charged trays are now on your right, place bullet in case and seat. and place the cartridge in the tray on your left.

Using two trays will help preventing mistakes in over/under charging powder and primer mistakes. Each tray will hold 50 cases.

On a Dillion, only problem I have had was in primer seating. Other problems do arise when the cycle is interupted.

I hope this comes out ok?

longrange1947
12-10-2005, 10:22
Hollis - Same procedure I use. Except I check all cases with a flashlight to make sure each case has a powder charge before beginning bullet seating. This is especially true if interrupted during the powder cycle.

Doc
12-10-2005, 20:04
Thanks Guys.

I will go slow and deliberate. I bought The Complete Reloading Manual for the
.270 Winchester today. This looks like a new adventure. I can see the need to be careful.

Hopefully the new glass and rings will be on top of the Sako soon.

It's nice to have a basement where I can set things up.

Please stay open to questions.

Doc

brianksain
12-11-2005, 11:12
Ever locate that scope Doc?

Ran across one (Zeiss) I might be able to get at a steal.

I have a Rockchucker as well ... my main press.

BK

Doc
12-11-2005, 11:18
Ever locate that scope Doc?

Ran across one (Zeiss) I might be able to get at a steal.

BK

Thanks briansain but ChandlerSniper has already got one ordered for me. It should be in this week. Thanks for thinking about me.

Doc

brianksain
12-12-2005, 08:38
Easy day. Good luck with the project.

BK

Team Sergeant
12-12-2005, 09:15
One last thing about reloading, keep meticulous notes....

Only load 20 at a time, that way if your gun doesn't like the load you will not have too much time invested. (20 should let you know how they handle.) I've not hand loaded rifle but have loaded thousands of handgun rounds....

TS

brianksain
12-13-2005, 07:12
TIP:

If the air conditioning vent in your reloading room blows directly on your reloading table, be sure and turn the fan off before weighing powder charges with a powder scale.

The scale is sensitive enough for the blown air to cause an errant measurement.

fwiw

Peregrino
12-13-2005, 13:10
TIP:

If the air conditioning vent in your reloading room blows directly on your reloading table, be sure and turn the fan off before weighing powder charges with a powder scale.

The scale is sensitive enough for the blown air to cause an errant measurement.

fwiw


Don't forget ceiling fans too! I moved some of my equipment around and couldn't figure out why my powder charges weren't consistent. It took me 10 minutes of adjusting the powder measure and checking the scale before I figured out what was going on - duh! :o It's the obvious things you take for granted/don't even think about that'll trip you up. (And I've been doing this for 27 years. It's a good thing I'm meticulous about cross-checking.) FWIW - Peregrino

longrange1947
12-13-2005, 13:46
I was wondering if the admins could break out the reloading part into a new thread. This is info that others may like to have but do not know it is hidden in a scope thread.

Just wondering. :)

VelociMorte
12-13-2005, 14:27
Some tips on reloading high pressure rifle cartridges:

It's almost impossible to double-charge a rifle cartridge if you're using the correct propellent, so your greatest danger is case-head seperation. Case-head seperation at 50,000+ copper units of pressure can be akin to having a pipe-bomb explode next to your face. You might get lucky and avoid the big, fast pieces, and you might not. To avoid the situation altogether...

Start out with new brass, or brass that you KNOW to be "Once-fired". The first time you reload for a particular rifle, do a full-case resize. After you've fired these in a particular rifle, and only if you intend to fire them from the same rifle again, only resize the neck. This avoids stressing the area just in front of the case-head. ALWAYS inspect your cases for cracks or leaks around the primer pocket, and for cracks or a bright band just forward of the case-head. Depending on how hot you load, find a happy number at which to dispose of your brass. I use 3 for maximum loads, and 5 for anything less. After that, throw the brass away. It's not worth spending an hour extracting the case remnants or blowing up your rifle and your face to save a couple bucks. A case-head sep in an auto-loader is usually no big deal..( http://www.tacticalsupplies.us/media/case_ead_seperation.mpg )... .it can be a little more messy with a bolt-gun.

Doc
12-23-2005, 12:32
I got my reloading kit today. It's an RCBS Kit. I've got two friends that said they would walk me through the process. Both have all fingers attached.

Thanks for all of the golden pearls of guidance.

Doc

Blitzzz (RIP)
01-07-2009, 09:14
I do a bunch of loading..I thought. I like loading the personal one a a time and get a lot of relaxation from it. I use mostly Lee products, with different brands mof ancillary equipment. I was working some ambitious rounds. One is a 240gr 30-06 to go 1600 meters transsonic. to make this a short story I did finaly get the velociety to reach that level but the rounds grouped poorly. I returned the the best grouping (.37moa) @ 100. and transsonic just beyond 1300 meters. It also has much reduced recoil for a 30-06. I do not know why this round is soooo good.
I am now looking for some reload suggestions for IMR 4831 powder with this same weight bullet. It may end up a failure but I wanted to try. I doubt I'll do any better with the 30-06 than my1300 meter recipe.
I do load 200gr in my 8mm Mauser (Shilen barrel, Timney trigger, reworked bolt,etc. and 175s in 308. All are Sierra HPBTs.
My primary powder for these rounds is IMR 4064 and am very satisfied with it.
I had read on the IMR 4831 as being a good heavy bullet powder, but could not find any heavey 30-06 recipes. any help would be welcome. Blitzzz

HOLLiS
01-07-2009, 13:03
I got my reloading kit today. It's an RCBS Kit. I've got two friends that said they would walk me through the process. Both have all fingers attached.

Thanks for all of the golden pearls of guidance.

Doc

One of the benefits of a single stage press is the inspection process is easier.

I used two loading trays. I would fill on tray with case and set it to the right side of the press and the empty tray to the left side of the press.

After sizing and priming, I would place the case in the left tray upside down. Upon completion I would take the left tray and inspect the primers setting depth.

Next, I would place the tray with upside down cases in it, to the right of the powder flask and the empty one to the left.

upon charging the case it would go into the empty tray (obviously right side up). Using one tray can cause over charging or cases being missed.

When that process is finished, I would take the tray and inspect the powder levels in all the cases.


Final (if seating and crimping is done at the same time)

Tray with cases to the right of the press, I would seat bullet and or crimp and place it into the left tray.


Starting with the tray on the right or left does not effect this method, where you start is personal preference.


Side note, 4064 has always been a favorite powder of mine.

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-14-2009, 09:02
Alliant has a new form of powders. They are called the "power Pro". they are:
300-MP (Smokeless Spherical Magnum Pistol Powder)
2000-MP (Smokeless Spherical Medium Rifle powder)
4000_MP (Smokeless Spherical Medium Rifle powder)
varmint (Smokeless special Light Rifle powder)
3000-LR (Smokeless special Large Rifle powder)
Just curious, has anyone had the chance to use any yet
They advertise "boost velocities,while permiting more efficient metering and loading ans with greater consistancy. Dave

SF0
08-14-2009, 10:41
I should be getting the rest of my reloading stuff in the next month or so. I've never reloaded before, always bought ammo from the store when it was cheaper. I already have 1lb of Alliant Unique powder, and 2000 Winchester large pistol primers. What I have left to purchase is a lee hand press, carbide dies, improved dipper kit, lee auto primer with shell holders, and some cast lead bullets. Found some good reloading manuals already. I don't do IDPA or anything like that, so I figure the hand press will suit me fine.

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-14-2009, 11:16
I use Unique for all my pistol and shotgun loading and am very pleased with as a one for all powder. I'm close to settling for a one powder for my rifle cartridges it's pretty much IMR 4064 but I am looking at the new Alliant pro powders. As to the lee Hand loader it's a nice piece but very slow way to go. You might think of a lee turrent. They are inexpensive and much faster the the hand loader. But it's all up to the time you with to spend loading. I like my loading time, it's relaxing. If i may ask what are you loading with cast bullets. revolver fine, semi not so fine.
You may want to get some Lee ALOX to coat the lead bullets. decreases lead clean up.

SF0
08-14-2009, 22:25
I use Unique for all my pistol and shotgun loading and am very pleased with as a one for all powder. I'm close to settling for a one powder for my rifle cartridges it's pretty much IMR 4064 but I am looking at the new Alliant pro powders. As to the lee Hand loader it's a nice piece but very slow way to go. You might think of a lee turrent. They are inexpensive and much faster the the hand loader. But it's all up to the time you with to spend loading. I like my loading time, it's relaxing. If i may ask what are you loading with cast bullets. revolver fine, semi not so fine.
You may want to get some Lee ALOX to coat the lead bullets. decreases lead clean up.

I'll try your suggestion of IMR 4064 once I start reloading 5.56. I just sold my heavy barrel bolt action so no .308 until finances clear up. Times have been tight.

I figured I'd get the hand loader for the price and size. Midwayusa.com charges 36.99 for the kit, which isn't so bad and I could probably fit it all in a .50 cal ammo can. I'll take a look at the lee turrets too. I'll be reloading .45 ACP and no more than 500 rds a month, so I could split it up on the weekends and relax. I definitely want to take my time and learn too, don't want anything bad happening.

The bullets I plan on using came from advice from an AD Marine that shoots IDPA pretty frequently when he's in the states. The price seems decent, and they are apparently coated with lube already. He shoots the 200grn SWC and doesn't have any problems in his Les Baer TRS 1911 (I have the same pistol). You can look at them here: http://www.precisionbullets.com/ . Is there anything I should be worried about regarding these in my 1911?

And thank you for your advice. Definitely helping me out!

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-14-2009, 22:40
IMR 4064 is a great powder for heaver calibers but not so for the 5.56. 5.56 may require a faster powder.IMR 3031 or RL 15 . Slow loading is a pleasure if you don't need a lot of ammo quickly. Loading can become an art form.. Enjoy it. Dave

Peregrino
08-14-2009, 23:21
SFO - Free advice, worth what you're paying for it. Your "minimalist" approach to equipment (no scale) will benefit from using ball powders. Learn with WW748 (rifle) and WW231 (pistol) powders. They are readilly available, relatively forgiving, meter well, and work well in a wide variety of cartridges. Good luck.

SF0
08-14-2009, 23:26
Blitzzz, Peregrino, thanks. :)

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-15-2009, 06:55
A bar scale is all you need Lyman, Lee, RCBS, Hornady, etc. The ball or fine flake powders will allow you to load pretty consistantlly by volume but scale insures it by weight. Important purchase. Dave

HOLLiS
08-16-2009, 08:52
Not sure if I would want the minimalist form of reloading especially when I reload for multiple calibers and build loads.

I consider a scale to be a important piece of equipment in this situation. If it was one caliber and one size bullet, one powder, then ok.

If a person reloads enough, especially rifle,, then a case trimmer becomes a necessity.

If a person builds up loads a Chronograph is another necessity.

As a person gets more into reloading and starts to move to bench rest shooting other tools become necessary.


The other aspect of reloading is powder choices, there are a lot of powders on the marker. I am slowly moving away from specific powder for specific calibers, to more general powders. This way I can reduce the number of different powders that I have in stock. Most of my shooting now only requires hunting and plinking accuracy. A scale allows a easy move using different powders for that one caliber.

Also bullet choices becomes another reason, a easier move to different bullets by weight.

I would recommend a good book for the beginner, pet loads, by Ken Waters. Great book for finding that load for a specific caliber.

Gene Econ
08-23-2009, 20:11
I should be getting the rest of my reloading stuff in the next month or so. I've never reloaded before, always bought ammo from the store when it was cheaper. I already have 1lb of Alliant Unique powder, and 2000 Winchester large pistol primers. What I have left to purchase is a lee hand press, carbide dies, improved dipper kit, lee auto primer with shell holders, and some cast lead bullets. Found some good reloading manuals already. I don't do IDPA or anything like that, so I figure the hand press will suit me fine.

SFO:

A Lee hand press with Lee dies and the Lee dipper kit?

My advise with the dipper is to use ball powders. The dippers don't go well with extruded or flake powders at all. Lee will give you a load chart with your dipper kit. It is for minimum loads so have a wooden dowel ready to hammer the bullets out of your pistol barrel when you get one stuck.

I say this from experience some thirty years ago when I started out with a Lee dipper kit. Three bullets stuck in the barrel of a S&W model 27 that were removed by the guys at Cumberland Knife and Gun on Bragg Blvd.

I got a scale, a real reloading press, a powder measure, powder scale, and some real reloading dies within seconds of those bullets getting pulled from that barrel. Never have had one stuck since.

In other words -- you are heading towards problems that guys here are advising you to consider.

Gene

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-26-2009, 12:13
I have three recipes tha I have researched and fount to be claiming the same as 118 ball. two are with the 175 gr Sierra HPBT and RL-15 and IMR 4895. the other is with the 173gr HPBTs of old and IMR 4064.
Any comment or other recipes welcome.

Brush Okie
08-26-2009, 15:27
I have three recipes tha I have researched and fount to be claiming the same as 118 ball. two are with the 175 gr Sierra HPBT and RL-15 and IMR 4895. the other is with the 173gr HPBTs of old and IMR 4064.
Any comment or other recipes welcome.

I had good results with Varget powder on the 308. My Sierra manual lists 35.4 gr to 41.4 gr for the 175. velocity is 2200- 2600 fps.

SF0
08-27-2009, 10:44
SFO:

A Lee hand press with Lee dies and the Lee dipper kit?

My advise with the dipper is to use ball powders. The dippers don't go well with extruded or flake powders at all. Lee will give you a load chart with your dipper kit. It is for minimum loads so have a wooden dowel ready to hammer the bullets out of your pistol barrel when you get one stuck.

I say this from experience some thirty years ago when I started out with a Lee dipper kit. Three bullets stuck in the barrel of a S&W model 27 that were removed by the guys at Cumberland Knife and Gun on Bragg Blvd.

I got a scale, a real reloading press, a powder measure, powder scale, and some real reloading dies within seconds of those bullets getting pulled from that barrel. Never have had one stuck since.

In other words -- you are heading towards problems that guys here are advising you to consider.

Gene

Thank you. In the very least I will pick up some Winchester Ball Powder and a scale. If funds permit, possibly a Dillon 550b. It's substantially more expensive than what I was considering, but seems like a quality product for a relatively low price.

Gene Econ
08-29-2009, 19:50
I have three recipes tha I have researched and fount to be claiming the same as 118 ball. two are with the 175 gr Sierra HPBT and RL-15 and IMR 4895. the other is with the 173gr HPBTs of old and IMR 4064.
Any comment or other recipes welcome.

Blitzzz:

LC also put ball powder into the M-118 that used the 173 gr FMJ bullet. I believe that ball powder was used for most of the 60's, then extruded in the 70's and ball powder again in the 80's and 90's. What type? Hard to say but something like 748 Winchester although not quite the same.

Hard to say what type of extruded powder was used with the M-118 Match of the 1970's. A military grade of 4895 which may be more like 4064. I think that sometimes the Army used a commercial powder and others a military grade of powder.

Rick knows better the history of the M-118 LR. I think it started with commercial Reloader 15 and then morphed into a military grade of extruded powder but don't quote me on that. The initial lots of 118LR did not perform and since then it seems the Army has continually tried to find a solution -- just like they tried with 118 Match / SB.

If someone wants to duplicate a 118 LR load, find a load that pushes the bullet out of a 24" 10 turn twist barrel at about 2610 - 2620 fps. One thing I have found that is very consistent about the 80's - 90's 118 SB and the 118 LR is that both of them have a MV of from 2610 - 2620 fps depending on the lot and their SD's are around 12 fps which does indicate consistency in terms of interior ballistics.

All that said, a guy can't really go wrong with using Varget for the .308 shooting about any reasonabe bullet weight.

Gene

Gene Econ
08-29-2009, 20:13
Thank you. In the very least I will pick up some Winchester Ball Powder and a scale. If funds permit, possibly a Dillon 550b. It's substantially more expensive than what I was considering, but seems like a quality product for a relatively low price.

SFO:

I advise you to take a look at the Lyman turret press kits at Midway. I have advised this kit for new reloaders on PS and other forums and those who have obtained such a kit have been satisfied. Dillon won't give you a powder scale and if you buy a Dillon, be prepared to have a machinist grind down the shell plate for your rifle loads. Also, the Dillon uses a charge bar in their measure that will restrict you to ball powders -- which you will regret.

This Lyman turret press will do what you want in a manner that will assure you of safe, reliable, and very accurate ammunition. The entire kit is about half the price of the Dillon you are looking at, and has every single thing you need to produce safe and precise rifle or pistol ammunition.

I do not advise you to use Lee equipment just yet. Blow your money on a full up Lee kit and you will regret your decision ten fold at your first range session.

Gene

Peregrino
08-29-2009, 21:06
Blitzzz - I'm using F210M primers and 41.6 gr. of IMR-4895 in LC90 cases to push a Sierra 175 BTHPM at 2610 fps. It holds a tight 10 ring at 600. I do a fair amount of case prep because it is military brass. Standard disclaimer - YMMV :D

SFO - I'm with GE on the Lee equipment. Don't scrimp. Buy quality the first time even if it seems more expensive and save money in the long run. Personally I recommend you look at an RCBS Rockchucker Master Kit. I've been using mine for 30+ years. Lyman is another venerable name/product; GE likes their equipment, I just upgraded to their 49th Reloading Handbook (that's the third edition I've purchased over the years).

SF0
08-29-2009, 21:41
Gene Econ, I'll take a look at the Lyman kits. I didn't know about those points regarding the Dillon presses - thank you for the heads up.

Peregrino, I believe our local Wal-Mart has an RCBS Rockchucker supreme kit for around 270 dollars.

I'm assuming by the advice given by you gentlemen that I can't go wrong with either.

Gene Econ
08-30-2009, 07:33
Blitzzz - I'm using F210M primers and 41.6 gr. of IMR-4895 in LC90 cases to push a Sierra 175 BTHPM at 2610 fps. It holds a tight 10 ring at 600. I do a fair amount of case prep because it is military brass. Standard disclaimer - YMMV :D

SFO - I'm with GE on the Lee equipment. Don't scrimp. Buy quality the first time even if it seems more expensive and save money in the long run. Personally I recommend you look at an RCBS Rockchucker Master Kit. I've been using mine for 30+ years. Lyman is another venerable name/product; GE likes their equipment, I just upgraded to their 49th Reloading Handbook (that's the third edition I've purchased over the years).

P.G:

He, he, he. The funny thing is that the only piece of Lyman gear I have left after these years is a stand for a powder measure! I had a Lyman turret many years ago and sold it. I have regretted that decision.

No, my advice to the various guys was based on me taking a close look at all of the various kits on the market -- RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding, Dillon, Hornady, and most likely a few others. I wrote down a listing of criteria with ratings on each piece of required equipment for reloading. I also rated them based on speed of loading as I really do hate handloading. So I looked at a number of different features and at least in terms of what is available in kit form today -- I found that one (not all) of the Lyman kits really did offer a bit more in terms of quality, durability, simplicity, and price.

So, no -- the decision wasn't made based on my personal likes. The gear I use doesn't come in kits and most likely is too expensive for guys who are starting out.

Gene

HOLLiS
08-30-2009, 10:17
I like Lyman too. I have had several Rockchuckers but always sold them off and kept my Orange crusher (Lyman).

As Gene mentioned about Lee, Lee does make a few cost effective items. One needs to know what they are.

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-30-2009, 23:33
I have a Hornady and a Lee turrent.
I load 9 different Calabers and rarely use the Hornady press. It's a single and I now only keep a LEE universal expander in it. All the other rounds are done on the LEE.
Lee is probably the least expensive of the bunch, but loads Match of you want.
I do own other brand pieces of equipment. Dillon Scale, RCBS powder dispenser, Lymam case trimer, etc.
Just My Zwei Centavos

incarcerated
08-31-2009, 12:12
Consider AA 2520 for .308, and H322 for both .308 and .223. Both are ball powders and have provided good results. Haven't tried Varget, but it receives good report from all quarters.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20Guide%20v3.3%20version.pdf

HOLLiS
08-31-2009, 14:11
One of the most reliable book on reloading data, when looking for the special load is, Ken Water's Pet Loads. Really good starting points. Not sure if there is information on the newly developed cartridges.

Gene Econ
08-31-2009, 21:41
Consider AA 2520 for .308, and H322 for both .308 and .223. Both are ball powders and have provided good results. Haven't tried Varget, but it receives good report from all quarters.


IC:

Consider Varget for the .308 with almost any bullet but particularly those that are between 150 and 180 grains.

You will find it to be more consistent than any ball powder made today IMHO. And yes, I shoot quite a bit of 2520, TAC, and H-335 (not H-332) but only in small capacity cases where powder density is a factor.

Give it a try and I doubt you will go back to the ball powders for the .308 capacity cases or larger.

LR1955

Peregrino
08-31-2009, 22:02
IC:

Consider Varget for the .308 with almost any bullet but particularly those that are between 150 and 180 grains.

You will find it to be more consistent than any ball powder made today IMHO. And yes, I shoot quite a bit of 2520, TAC, and H-335 (not H-332) but only in small capacity cases where powder density is a factor.

Give it a try and I doubt you will go back to the ball powders for the .308 capacity cases or larger.

LR1955

Gene - Got to agree with you about the Varget for .308 and .223 though I've pretty much completed the switch to RL-15 for all my long range match ammo. Either one is worth the extra effort required to weigh each charge. I still use the ball powders [WW748 and BL-C(2) right now] for anything 300m and under, it's just easier and the targets are big enough that .25 moa isn't worth worrying about.

incarcerated
08-31-2009, 23:17
IC:

Consider Varget....
Give it a try and I doubt you will go back to the ball powders for the .308 capacity cases or larger.

LR1955

I am behind the times. :boohoo


I'll try it!

Gene Econ
09-01-2009, 09:13
Gene - Got to agree with you about the Varget for .308 and .223 though I've pretty much completed the switch to RL-15 for all my long range match ammo. Either one is worth the extra effort required to weigh each charge. I still use the ball powders [WW748 and BL-C(2) right now] for anything 300m and under, it's just easier and the targets are big enough that .25 moa isn't worth worrying about.



P.G.:

Weigh each charge? He, he, he.

Sometime just throw the charges into the case and shoot them at 600. All things considered -- I bet you will not see any difference in scores. Of course you need a decent powder measure but with Varget you will be + - .2 grains instead of + - .1 grain when you individually weigh charges.

I probably wouldn't try that with 4064. He, he, he.

Gene

Penn
05-25-2010, 08:31
Gentleman, I’ve been shooting BH 175gr, .308 in my Remington 700. The gun seems to function well with that load, as I can consistently cover a 20 shot group at 200yrds with the spread of my hand; and for me right now, untrained, that’s ok. But it’s an expensive education, and I was thinking of reloading, but I am not really interested in the process. That said, is there a consensus as to a reloading service any of you would use.

lksteve
05-25-2010, 08:47
That said, is there a consensus as to a reloading service any of you would use.Look for recommendations from folks at the range or your gun club...

Penn
05-25-2010, 08:52
I belong to the Ft. Dix Gun Club, and have asked around, only to find thats it illegal to have anyone reload for you in NJ.

lksteve
05-25-2010, 08:55
I belong to the Ft. Dix Gun Club, and have asked around, only to find thats it illegal to have anyone reload for you in NJ.Hmm...glad I live in America...that said, I'm not sure saving a few bucks on ammo is worth not knowing the guy doing the reloading...do other guys at the club have their stuff reloaded out of state? I'd be reluctant to send my stuff off to be reloaded. If that were my only option, I'd either take up reloading (time consuming, expensive to start, and more than a bit boring, from my experience) or suck it up and buy new...

Peregrino
05-25-2010, 09:12
Check out Georgia Arms. They've got bulk quantities of 168 and 175. Not as good as BH but certainly cheaper and more convenient than reloading yourself. (Are you using Red or Blue BH?) DON'T go cheap; it'll destroy your learning experience if the ammo isn't accurate (I want better than M80 Ball, some will tell you that's perfectly acceptable, YMMV). Personally - you need to "bite the bullet" and reload. An RCBS Master Kit (Rockchucker) will set you up for success. Your buddies are right about the legalities of reloading for someone else - if you're paying for the service, it requires a lisense. Besides - how many people do you know that you trust to prepare an explosive that will detonate 3" from your face? My .02, HTH.

PriestFoxley
05-26-2010, 22:37
I just got into reloading myself, but I am limited on space with no workbench, so I usually just watch movies and prep cases using one of the lee classic loader kits for .308. It works, but I had a primer go off on me, so then I got an auto prime, and that seems to work better.

Any advice on guys who don't have a bench to reload on? I live in a one room apartment, so space is at a premium.

MVP
08-24-2010, 15:31
I was in home depot on Saturday and saw a three-legged base that could be used to build a portable set-up. Something like this could allow you to put your press away when not is use. About 20-30 years a company used to make a small wooden base for a single-stage press. Once the press was mounted to it the operator would sit on the base on the floor to load.

FWIW: I hate reloading and only load because I cannot to afford to buy everything I shoot. I use a single-stage RCBS AmmoMaster to load 308, 338L, 45-2.6, 50-70, and 50-90. It is slow but the last 3 cartridges require wads and depending on circumstances, duplex powder charges and grease cookies so a progressive is for me out of the question anyway.

MVP

Gene Econ
08-28-2010, 09:54
I just got into reloading myself, but I am limited on space with no workbench, so I usually just watch movies and prep cases using one of the lee classic loader kits for .308. It works, but I had a primer go off on me, so then I got an auto prime, and that seems to work better.

Any advice on guys who don't have a bench to reload on? I live in a one room apartment, so space is at a premium.

PF:

Sure do. Use C clamps and clamp the press onto a kitchen table or something of the sort. It ought to take you about three minutes to set up the press, powder measure, and scale. Or you can bolt the press and powder measure to a 18" X 24" or longer one inch thick plywood sheet and then c clamp the entire thing to any table or similar thing.

I figure a reloading set-up to include elbow room will cover an area that is about two feet wide and about a foot deep minimum but more comfortably two feet wide and 18" deep.

Gene

Ambush Master
08-28-2010, 10:17
Check out Post #29 here:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20950&highlight=black+decker

Sapper124
08-31-2010, 15:01
I myself do not reload, however when i stumbled across the listing on govliquidation.com I thought I would through this out there. If you go on the site, there are numerous listings under Ft benning, Redstone and others for surplus mass quantities of brass. Granted they are limited to 9mm, 5.56, 7.62 up to .50 and in large quantities (10,000lbs plus) and geared more towards large production companies there may be smaller parcels. Thought I would throw that out there if anyone knew anyone looking for a few tons of brass :D.

...and to think they always make us account for all spent casings when coming off ranges...:mad:

Peregrino
10-26-2010, 22:43
Attention To Detail - Just finished wasting 1.5 hrs for a CHERRY mistake. I was reloading (seating) some 300WM in virgin primed cases a friend gave me and checking OAL to make sure the die was correctly set. Lo and behold - I couldn't get a consistent length (with a Redding Competition Seating Die!) 10 rounds into it, it occurs to me to check neck tension. :o Taking my thumb and pressing on the bullet instantly revealed the problem. Six of the ones I checked moved; all requiring different amounts of force, but all moving. Needless to say, I just finished breaking down all of them plus the remnants from the last batch and neck sizing everything. I'll finish reloading them tomorrow night, humbler but wiser. Just goes to show what 30 years of reloading experience is worth when you take something basic for granted.

mark46th
10-27-2010, 14:38
My son and I reload for .300 Win Mag, .308, 7.5X55, .270. .30-30 and .22-250. For my Model 70 in .270, however, Remington Corelokt 130gr from Walmart gives me the best accuracy. Go Figure.

Something to remember- what shoots best in your particular weapon might not be a Super Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am eargeschplittenloudenboomer custom load...

Gene Econ
10-27-2010, 17:13
Attention To Detail - Just finished wasting 1.5 hrs for a CHERRY mistake. I was reloading (seating) some 300WM in virgin primed cases a friend gave me and checking OAL to make sure the die was correctly set. Lo and behold - I couldn't get a consistent length (with a Redding Competition Seating Die!) 10 rounds into it, it occurs to me to check neck tension. :o Taking my thumb and pressing on the bullet instantly revealed the problem. Six of the ones I checked moved; all requiring different amounts of force, but all moving. Needless to say, I just finished breaking down all of them plus the remnants from the last batch and neck sizing everything. I'll finish reloading them tomorrow night, humbler but wiser. Just goes to show what 30 years of reloading experience is worth when you take something basic for granted.

PG:

Only ten and you figured it out? That shows experience as something in your subconscious cued you that something was wrong. High degree of SA in my opinion. Most likely you picked it up when seating.

Why didn't you just use the soft seat technique when you are blasting? I don't believe you are doing any rapid fires with that rifle.

What is up using an obsolete cartridge anyway? He, he.

Gene

Peregrino
10-27-2010, 19:55
Gene - Proceedures. I checked OAL on the data sheet, then broke out the calipers to verify the first couple reloads. The first one was .10 long so I tweaked the micrometer. The second was .20 short so I "untweaked" it. By then I was annoyed but the next two were fine - and the one after that was .20 short. Talk about "all over the place". And further tweaking didn't make a difference; consistency was not there. I'm occasionally stubborn, that's why it took me 10 rounds to get back to square one. It wouldn't have been an issue with once fired brass; I would have done a complete workup, starting with the neck sizer (or FL with "gifted" brass). Since I'm a cheap ba***rd, I rarely deal with virgin brass, especially in rifle calibers - hence the cherry shortcut. I don't soft seat for a number of reasons; mostly because I want to be able to magazine feed every round if needed. If I start bench rest, I'll relook that decision; however, I won't be using the obsolete cartridge either. :p Which is the result of a conscious decision involving available brass, access to a plethora of quality (military) data, my dad's LA Rem 700 that started in 7mm RUM (no way in hell it was staying that way), and a great gunsmith/buddy willing to do the work despite his misgivings.

The good news - maybe getting the neck tension right will reduce/eliminate the annoying velocity spread I had from the first batch. Like the one that dropped low in the attached 200M group.

Buffalobob
12-15-2010, 11:40
Fits better on this thread than in the humor section, but is not intended to insult anyone.

Enjoy it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiavoHy9Zgw&feature=player_embedded

Blitzzz (RIP)
06-04-2011, 19:32
Just loaded 308 and 8mm Mauser with this new powder.. I haven't Chronied these yet, the range was closed today. will do asap and pass on the results. Just curious as to anyone else using this yet?

MK262MOD1
06-04-2011, 22:36
I'm curious to see you results.

Gene Econ
06-05-2011, 21:25
Just loaded 308 and 8mm Mauser with this new powder.. I haven't Chronied these yet, the range was closed today. will do asap and pass on the results. Just curious as to anyone else using this yet?

Blitzz:

Yes.

6 BR and 6.5 Grendel. Since I use heavier bullets with the 6 BR, I found it to be too fast a powder so I will stick with Varget for the 6 BR. That said, I believe it is the ideal extruded powder for the Grendel -- a difficult cartridge to get maximum velocity out of while maintaining safe pressures.

It is faster than the two 4895's so beware. I am not sure how much loading data is out there on the powder but I sure would back off the loads compared to 4895 or Varget for the .308 or 8mm Mauser.

One of its selling points is insensitivity towards temperature changes. On that I am not sure. You are in a much better location to determine if that claim is true or false.

Gene

Blitzzz (RIP)
06-13-2011, 16:47
have loaded some 30-06 with 168g Sierra HPBTs, just for velocity reasons.
I like 200s with the 30-06 for ranges out to 1300 meters.

Maybe this week.

tunanut
09-15-2011, 15:10
If you guys haven't tried Stainless Steel media for cleaning your brass yet, you're missing out. It does a fantastic job inside and out. Primer pockets come out clean and ready to seat a primer and load once dried. I've been using it a couple months now and it cuts down case prep time a bunch. I've been reloading almost 30 years now and it's certianly the best method I've ever used for cleaning. On a side note, I wanted to develope a load for my 270 since getting it rebarreled. Use 5 different powers in varied quantities. After extensive testing, the best load I found for it was 54.2g of IMR 4350. When I got home I dug up some rounds I loaded when I was 17(1982), yep 54g of IMR 4350. Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Stiletto11
01-19-2013, 08:39
Just a heads up if anyone is looking for powder. Natchez Shooting Supply has 8 pounders of BLC (2) in stock.

Ramirez
02-04-2013, 12:59
I'm only reloading 2 calibers right now. 300 blk and .308 win.

For my 20 inch .308 I run

44.2 g of Varget
Lapua Brass
Federal GMM #210 primers
Hornady 178 Amax
I'm loading them .05 off the lands
2668 FPS is my MV.

Pretty consistent 1/2 MOA or better

300 blk

7.5 g of lil gun
Rem brass
2.18 OAL
208 Amax or 208 hpbt
GMM primers.

1MOA or better.

LT Fuzz
02-07-2013, 22:38
Reloading for .308, 30-06, and .45 ACP. Best results so far is for .308 (1 1/4" group at 300 yds and 1 5/8" gp at 400 yards)
Remington 700 DBM action fitted with 31" free floated Palma barrel cut back to 24" (13/16" dia at muzzle).
Factory trigger set down to 2 1/4 lbs from lawyer-proof factory setting.
Talon, "Menace" 4 - 14 scope (Brit made from Chinese parts and Japanese optics)
Lake City, M118 LR Match brass
CCI LR BR2 primer
42.3 grains Hodgdon Varget powder (2645 fps +/- 10fps)
175 gr Sierra HPBT Match bullet
Single feed loaded .002 "jump" off lands

1955 CMP M1 Garand (w/1944 eyes) battle sight 3 1/2" group at 200 yds.
Open "peep" iron sights
Greek HXP brass
CCI LR BR2 primer
46.2 grains Hodgdon Varget powder
150 gr Sierra HPBT Match bullet

Haven't settled on load for S&W 1911 .45 yet.

pcfixer
02-11-2013, 15:54
I load 30-06--243--223-- 45 ACP and 45 LC.
I've found this better than watching TV alot with more satisfaction to boot.
Mostly shoot targets with pistol ammo. The 30-06 is one hunting rifle I use.

Use IMR 4064 with all 150 grain Hornady, Speer and Nosler bullets in 30-06.
Use Varget in 243 with most bullets from 55 grains to 100 grain seems to be most accurate.
45 acp and 45 LC work well with TiteGroup powder as I don't experiment much when I find a
working load that shoots accurately as long as I do.....:)