Stupid Liberal Professors [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

cback0220

11-30-2005, 17:57

As well it should. The problem is that our Covert Operations are no longer covert when they are published in the L.A. Yimes. As much as Sen. Joseph McCarthy was out of control in the fifties, we need to reinstitute a "House Unamerican Activities Committee". and tighten up information security. IMO the "Right to Know" law of the seventies opened up a Pandora's Box of media snooping and abuse.

That is true, but the book does not present it the way you do. It is completely against our government, and they are teaching it in Government class.

Dennisw,

I do not see the quiet majority, if they are around, they are really really quiet. College is infected with liberal treehuggers. My girlfriends roomate CRIED when she read the Alaskan oil pipeline would be opened. It is out of control!

Don't get me wrong I love our environment, but crying over it, closing/not opening a road because of it, and curbing our economic growth because of it are not for me.

QRQ 30

11-30-2005, 18:29

Allow me to repeat something someone else said concerning a different subject.

I am paraphrasing: "10% are strongly pro; 10% and strongly anti; and the other 80% just want to go on with their lives." He was speaking of the Phillipines but could have been talking about the U.S.

cback0220

11-30-2005, 18:37

: "10% are strongly pro; 10% and strongly anti; and the other 80% just want to go on with their lives." He was speaking of the Phillipines but could have been talking about the U.S.

Yeah, I just seem to always come into contact with the stronly anti, and it pisses me off. Silly girlfriend has stupid friends:confused:

Today at work I met some conservative Canadians though. They were super stoked about the Vote yesterday. So all is not lost eh?

Huey14

11-30-2005, 21:11

What's the rest of the reading list?

dennisw

11-30-2005, 21:16

That is true, but the book does not present it the way you do.

I believe it's a test for free people. If people believe the lie, then we do not deserve to be free. When I was in college, in every class the professors wanted to talk about nothing but Nixon. They were not very bright either, just liberal.

When I went back to school after the army, I had a liberal professor from Canada, who started to going off on the US. I respected his authority, but told him let US folks handle US problems. He respected that.

I imagine there's a lot of students who see things the same way you do, they're just afraid to come off as being uncool.

The flaming liberals usually have no imagination so they can't imagine being wrong or out of line. Remember, he is the winner who perseveres.

cback0220

11-30-2005, 21:52

What's the rest of the reading list?

Politics of Power. I could not find a link, but she said it was also pretty liberal.

Bill Harsey

11-30-2005, 22:01

What bothers me about all of this is we have to foot the bill on these guys and gals teaching this stuff.
I worked in the Oregon woods logging to pay 100% of my university degree and may have had a slight attitude when it came to footing the bill on some of the clueless liberal stuff being taught. It didn't take me all day to go get a drop slip and make the class go away.

Here is what I learned at "school" (with apologies to Airbornelawyer who I believe attended and excelled at some extraordinary institution(s)):

"Those for whom everything is provided have the luxury of condemning those who provide."

longrange1947

11-30-2005, 22:22

Bill, are you saying that AL was institutionalized. :D :munchin

cback0220

11-30-2005, 22:24

aricbcool

12-01-2005, 00:14

Hello, my name is Aric, and I am one of the silent majority. ;)

While I don't have to put up with too much crap at my school, (because it's a technical/managerial degree and I have all my Gen. Ed. out of the way), if any politics do come into play, or the curriculum is liberal I just play along, because I want my degree with as little hassle as possible.

It's not worth my time to argue with someone who can't be swayed, especially when they hold my grade in their liberal hands.

I want my piece of paper, and then I want out. Everything else will be water under the bridge.

Just my .02.

Respectfully,
Aric

JRV3

12-01-2005, 08:05

QRQ 30

12-01-2005, 08:15

I had a history professor in college who said WWII was our fault. Something about us not being nice enough to the Germans after WWI. You know, that kind of makes sense - that definitely would excuse someone to try and take over Europe and exterminate thousands of innocent people. :rolleyes: Let's all blame America for the world's problems instead of taking responsibility for ourselves.

Not only did I have to listen to a semester of his America hating propaganda, but I wrote an essay on the final that was contrary to his "teachings" and he gave me a D!

The Potsdam Accords ending WWI did indeed seek to totally crush a proud people and IS a direct cause of the situation which led to the war. If you will notice, the Marshall Plan of re-building after WWII worked much better.

You can again apply the 10-80-10 theory. 10% are ass kissers who will agree to anything to get a grade, 10% are boat rockers (like me who ended up in the Army) and 80% just keep their mouths shut and collect their grades. Don't fail to recognize who is grading you and has your future in his hands.

VelociMorte

12-01-2005, 08:27

A few years ago, I was attending a “Public Speaking” class at a public college in South Carolina. I had fully prepared and rehearsed a speech on something or other, and was scheduled to give it later in the week when suddenly the entire class was subjected to a half-hour long diatribe of anti-gun propaganda given by a rather cute but naive young co-ed. She was espousing alternate methods of self-defense such as pepper-spray, stun guns, cell phones, and cowering in fear and begging for mercy. There was no freaking way I was going to allow such crap to go unchallenged. When I got home from class that afternoon, I threw away the speech I had prepared, and set out to utterly destroy every argument she had made in her speech. I stayed up all night compiling National and State crime statistics comparing the violent crime rates between States with strict gun control laws, those with conservative laws, and those with Right to Carry laws.
I had contacted Campus Security and discovered that although I could not carry a firearm into class, I could carry a stun gun or pepper spray. I didn’t think it would be a good idea to discharge pepper spray in the classroom, so I videotaped myself being sprayed full in the face with 10% while demonstrating that I could still function and was not incapacitated.
I began my presentation by systematically destroying every anti-gun statistic that had been presented the previous day. I quoted heavily from John Lott’s works, and Jeff Snyder’s “A Nation of Cowards” (If you haven’t read it, you should). During my presentation, I asked the female who had spewed the previous day’s anti-gun vomit to volunteer and step up to the front of the class. I asked her to pretend she was being attacked and raped. As she pulled out her cell phone (her solution), I reached over and took it out of her hand. She actually said “you can’t do that”. When I asked her why, she said “because it’s against the law”. Apparently this was the first time that anyone had explained to her that by definition, criminals don’t obey laws.
Asking the class for further suggestions to extricate her from this dilemma, the next suggestion was “pepper spray”. I promptly showed them the video taped evidence that pepper spray is not a deterrent to someone who is familiar with its effects. The next suggestion was, as I knew it would be, …”stun gun”!. I promptly took out a 100K volt stun gun, demonstrated the pretty blue arc, then proceeded to zoot myself on the thigh, right chest, and left shoulder, all while continuing to talk. Yea, it hurt like a son-of-a-bitch, but I was proving my point. I then asked my now wide-eyed volunteer what the one thing was that could save her life if I were beating her to death right now. “A GUN” was her reply. She had gotten the point.
For months after that speech, people on campus would occasionally approach me and ask where they could get firearms training or what pistol they should buy….or if I was crazy. Everyone in that class will remember what they saw and heard that day.
The reason that Anti-American propaganda is propagated through our Colleges is that nobody wants to make waves. It seems to be perfectly acceptable for someone to put down the United States and call the President a Nazi, but it’s offensive to correct those same people, or ask them to support their allegations with fact. Screw that. The next time someone says that the United States is a bad place, stand up immediately and ask them why they live here. The next time someone presents an idea you KNOW to be wrong, stand up and call bullshit. Go home. Do your research. Come back and humiliate them with irrefutable facts.

JRV3

12-01-2005, 08:40

I agree; however, I don't think that gives Hitler an excuse to invade other countries and purposely kill innocent people. Bin Ladin, allegedly, may not like our policies in the ME, but that is not reason enough to kill 3000 innocent people. Just because I may drive through your yard, doesn't give you the reason to blow up my house - maybe that is a bad example considering present company...:D

The smart move would have been to just nod and smile and take my grade, but I've never been one to keep my mouth shut in those kind of situations.:boohoo

504PIR

12-01-2005, 08:51

VelociMorte,

Sounds like an excellant presention, you made a believer out of your opponenent.

QRQ 30

12-01-2005, 08:59

I agree; however, I don't think that gives Hitler an excuse to invade other countries and purposely kill innocent people.

Not an absolute excuse but a very strong contributory cause bringing about a climate ripe for a dictator. Hitler didn't promise that they would kill millions. He promised food in their bellies and jobs to earn money to buy the food. I had the opportunity to talk with Germans from the thirties and their stories were eye opening. Can you imagine taking a wheel barrel of money to the store to buy a loaf of bread? While at DLIWC one of our class point blank asked our German instructor why he had been a Nazi. He very point blank answered that it was to feed his family.

A little research will show that Japan also went to war because of economic isolation, the very thing some propose for China. When you back a rat into the corner he has no alternative than to attack.

To lay total blame on one side or the other is ludicrous. To analyze the contributing factors and seek solutions makes sense. The Marshal Plan was a result of realizing the effect of total domination.

Bill Harsey

12-01-2005, 09:45

Velicimorte, Well done!

Terry (QRQ 30), Good history.

VelociMorte

12-01-2005, 10:10

...

"Finally, there is a great tradition of warnings in Presidential farewells, and I've got one that's been on my mind for some time. But oddly enough it starts with one of the things I'm proudest of in the past 8 years: the resurgence of national pride that I called the new patriotism. This national feeling is good, but it won't count for much, and it won't last unless it's grounded in thoughtfulness and knowledge."

"An informed patriotism is what we want. And are we doing a good enough job teaching our children what America is and what she represents in the long history of the world? Those of us who are over 35 or so years of age grew up in a different America. We were taught, very directly, what it means to be an American. And we absorbed, almost in the air, a love of country and an appreciation of its institutions. If you didn't get these things from your family you got them from the neighborhood, from the father down the street who fought in Korea or the family who lost someone at Anzio. Or you could get a sense of patriotism from school. And if all else failed you could get a sense of patriotism from the popular culture. The movies celebrated democratic values and implicitly reinforced the idea that America was special. TV was like that, too, through the mid-sixties."

"But now, we're about to enter the nineties, and some things have changed. Younger parents aren't sure that an unambivalent appreciation of America is the right thing to teach modern children. And as for those who create the popular culture, well-grounded patriotism is no longer the style. Our spirit is back, but we haven't reinstitutionalized it. We've got to do a better job of getting across that America is freedom--freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of enterprise. And freedom is special and rare. It's fragile; it needs protection."

"So, we've got to teach history based not on what's in fashion but what's important--why the Pilgrims came here, who Jimmy Doolittle was, and what those 30 seconds over Tokyo meant. You know, 4 years ago on the 40th anniversary of D-day, I read a letter from a young woman writing to her late father, who'd fought on Omaha Beach. Her name was Lisa Zanatta Henn, and she said, 'we will always remember, we will never forget what the boys of Normandy did.' Well, let's help her keep her word. If we forget what we did, we won't know who we are. I'm warning of an eradication of the American memory that could result, ultimately, in an erosion of the American spirit. Let's start with some basics: more attention to American history and a greater emphasis on civic ritual."

"And let me offer lesson number one about America: All great change in America begins at the dinner table. So, tomorrow night in the kitchen I hope the talking begins. And children, if your parents haven't been teaching you what it means to be an American, let 'em know and nail 'em on it. That would be a very American thing to do."

...

from Ronald Reagan's Farewell Address, 1988

http://www.townhall.com/townhall/america101.html?rowid=52

ObliqueApproach

12-01-2005, 10:20

Although not always applicable the saying "Those who can do, those who can't, teach" is apropos to the ivory tower tenured university professors in America.
I think you might find it interesting to note that my kids are in middle school and high school in the American Community School in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates and hear the same anti-American diatribe from the "American" and Canadian teachers every day. Fortunately the current president of the school board is a recently retired LTC 11A who calls BS when he sees it. You would think being over here the teachers would see and expound upon the virtues of the American ideal, but sadly this is not the case. If they cannot see it here, how can the professors there in their ivory towers possibly understand it? Fear not though as my kids have their daily reality check with US SF and UK Royal Marines who keep them firmly in the here and now.

Just my.02.

Keep the faith!

JRV3

12-01-2005, 11:09

To lay total blame on one side or the other is ludicrous. To analyze the contributing factors and seek solutions makes sense. The Marshal Plan was a result of realizing the effect of total domination.

Agreed. Thanks for the perspective.

jatx

12-01-2005, 11:31

Good job, VM.

I attended (and earned a reputation) at some of the most "liberal" schools in the country. I would not change that fact, and am very happy with the education that I received.

For every flaming liberal professor on college campuses today, there are ten lap dog conservatives.

Yes, I said lap dog. Comfortable with their beliefs, but lacking the intestinal fortitude or honest conviction to speak up and articulate the opposing view in a compelling manner. These same cuddly creatures are usually the same ones crying to their College Republican buddies over beers about how oppressed they are. Shocking, shocking I say!

I have little use for these sort of intellectual weaklings. The only thing worse than a delusional opponent is a sycophantic friend.

My approach to liberal bias in the classroom was to confront it vociferously and tenaciously with facts and collegiality. Most other students, liberal or conservative, would not speak up themselves and preferred to sit back and watch the fireworks while drooling and scratching themselves. That approach won admirers, even on the Left, and I am still in touch with many of those teachers and students today. You know why? Because they hate lap dogs, too.

cback0220

12-01-2005, 13:07

Although not always applicable the saying "Those who can do, those who can't, teach" is apropos to the ivory tower tenured university professors in America.

My dad always tells me the same thing. Why are these business proffesors not out there making millions of dollars, or heading up a major company?

dennisw

12-01-2005, 15:19

I think it was Woody Allen who said, "those who can, do, those who cannot, teach. Those who cannot teach, teach P.E." As my wife is a sports pychologist, she hates that quote.:D

QRQ 30

12-01-2005, 15:29

At one time I was studying to be a Christian Brother. While studying the history of the order I found that in the 18th Century teachers were considered amongst the lowest of the low. I believe it was the Christian Brothers who established "Normal Schools" to educate the educators.

It doesn't seem things have changed much.:rolleyes: :confused:

REMFlt

12-02-2005, 08:54

As far as liberal professors go, the best route is normally to sit in the class every day, and bring up arguments with good references to counter their beliefs. Just bringing up one or two arguments every day. You can still get a good grade, the prof realizes you are participating, and hopefully you can convert some of your naive peers.
I was reflecting on college the other day, and remembered what an "idealistic" time it is. The majority of the students live in a relatively consequence free environment. If you drink all night and don't go to class, nothing happens, you just get the notes from a friend. As long as you keep paying for school, they'll let you stay, alot of students frequently take 7 years to complete undergraduate degrees now. I remember itching to get out to the army, while my peers (notice I don't say friends) were trying to find ways to stay in college. Combine this environment with numerous liberal professors, and its no wonder that alot of the liberal movement takes place on college campuses. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT LIVING IN THE REAL WORLD!... sorry I got off on a rant there. thats just my $.02.

QRQ 30

12-02-2005, 09:06

When I was in college - 59-62 - the best students were those attending on the G.I. Bill. They had served in the military, many were married and they were focused of a goal in life. The majority of other students were attending on mommy and daddy's money and were, for the most part, partying and avoiding the military and/or work force. Many still didn't know what they wanted to major in after two years.

REMFLt is so correct.

HOLLiS

12-02-2005, 10:26

VM, excellent presentation. Criminality is a interesting study. They, the criminal, do not think like regular people, one reason regular people don't understand them. Even with hitler, they cover their predation with lies and blaming the victim. They believe they have the right to prey on people. The reason for their predation is generally moot. One common expression with the victim is, "Why me?". Sadly like the anti gun spewing student, she will say that too, never realizing she had place herself in a position to have been easily victimized.

Solid

12-03-2005, 03:16

The only ideas worth a damn are those that stand up to a strong, rational and factual critique. Many times, arguments will come down to a fundemental disagreement between the parties. This is the 'sticking point'. You can argue further, but often you will need to agree to disagree. There are some things in this world which are right, some which are wrong. Many fall into the gray area in between.

The key is to provide yourself with as much factual information on a subject as possible, try to understand all the arguments from all the different angles presented, and then synthesize your own belief.

To accept anything at face value is to become a sheep to some other person's belief system.

If people understood this, it would not matter what FOX or CNN was reporting, or what was being said at UTexas or Yale.

Oddly enough, the only country in the world with a course which teaches its citizens to properly evaluate information is France with their mandatory 'theory of knowledge' course. Perhaps other western countries should follow suit?

JMO,

Solid

Rehhan

12-03-2005, 04:45

In my college experience I've found there to be three income brackets by which to define college students.

First there are your Rich Kids. Their parents pay for all their college expenses so that they can have the 'college experience'. Though many exceptions persist most often they are unmotivated misdirected pleasure-addicts who will finish college....if they feel like it.

Second there are your financially unfortunate Kids. While their parents cannot pay for their college tuition You sure can! Benefiting from your tax dollars these Kids continually 'get by' with cash provided to them by the state and/or Federal government. Generally speaking they don't work, complain about their 'situation' and continually ponder whatever unfortunate circumstances they characterize their lives by while doing nothing to change said circumstances.

Third there are your Middle-Class kids. While their parents don't make enough money to pay for their college expenses Federal and State grant money doesn't quite reach them either. While the poor and rich are downing beer and playing ultimate frisbee these Kids are working two jobs to pay for living/tuition. Generally the most hard-working group, they are also the least rewarded.

Of course there are exceptions to these classes but this is generally what I have perceived to be the case. In addition, I generally find that most liberal students are found in the second group, blaming others for their failures yet doing little to change their own lives; and most conservatives are found in the third group.

Roycroft201

12-03-2005, 21:01

Solid,

Well said.

However, I have a question about the ' theory of knowledge' course that you stated is mandatory in France. All high school students are required to take this course ?

We do have high schools here in the US that offer 'fundamental issues in the theory of knowledge and metaphysics' in philosophy courses. Is this similar to what you are saying is a mandatory course there?

Education in the US is taking a beating in this thread, some of which is well deserved. However, in my humble opinion, there are some areas which should not be grouped in broad generalizations.

When I first signed on as a member here at PS.com, because my background is a combination of govt. and politics, and also education, Roguish Lawyer asked what is the answer to fixing the problems that exist in education in the United States today:eek: .

There is no simple answer. I wish there were. What might be working well in one school may not even be a priority at another. But one thing I can attest to is that not every teacher, not every administrator, is a left-leaning liberal incapable of providing quality education for our kids.

Roycroft 201 :lifter

NousDefionsDoc

12-03-2005, 22:18

Solid, the problem with your theory is "What happens when the other side refuses to acknowledge facts as facts?"

Most people don't debate, they try to shout down the other side.

I like that the universities are liberal. I wouldn't change a thing. I think they are a good balance to the military and certain other sectors. What I don't like are liars. I also don't care much for tenure, but understand the need for something similar.

A well rounded person will look at all sides and make his own choices. Liberal colleges give one of those sides.

And BTW, there's not much ideological difference between UT and Yale. Austin is one of the most liberal places in the US.

Solid

12-03-2005, 22:47

Rehhan:
As a college student, I would have to say that I broadly disagree with your characterization of the student population. The idea that people work solely to maximise the benefit of their investment or non-investment is in my opinion flawed. Yes, there are students which come to college to have a 'college experience' of heavy drinking and mass fornication, but there are also students which eschew this 'college experience' in favor of hitting the books night after night in the library.
These groups are never wholly determined by income or federal assistance. While it may be easier for a legacy student (ultra rich kid) or a basketball scholarship recipient to not work, there are just as many of these people that DO work, and work hard, as there are middle class people who coast by, regardless of the fact that it is costing their parents a lot of money to put them through school.
In fact, I would posit that in most cases, a student will not neatly fit into the box of 'work' or 'party'. Most mix it up a fair amount.

Anyway.

Roycroft:
The french 'theory of knowledge' (or ToK) course is mandatory in every highschool. It is a year-long course taught in the senior year, and is very intensive. It not only covers the theories behind the concept of knowledge- as in, what is knowledge, what is information, etc, but gives very practical training in how to identify and get around biases etc.
We had to take a mandatory course here which was supposed to teach us the same thing, but fell short. I think the course that I took here was a bit like the one you are talking about.

I think that most educational systems have many flaws. Often, the ones that go unnoticed are the best- for example, the Swiss and Swedish educational systems are supposedly exceptional.

To go off on a tangent briefly, and one that may be controversial:
It is my opinion that the slowly degrading educational systems in, for example, the UK and US are serious problems in terms of the economy. Pure market capitalism necessitates that jobs are outsourced to countries with lower labor costs, and our manufacturing sectors are gradually becoming less able to compete with industrializing countries'. It is likely that our new comparative advantage will be found (much like Taiwan's is today) in the creation of intellectual property and entrepeneurship.
Of course, to make sure we are capable of consistently creating new intellectual property, we need lots of well-educated people. There are two ways of doing this:
1. Give green cards to every person who comes to this country to study for their Ph.D, thus exploiting our reputation as having the finest post-graduate schools in the world while it still exists; or:

2. Improve our education systems.

Both, in my opinion, are really important to our future economic success.
/Tangent

JMO,

Solid

NDD: I get in many arguments out here, and in most cases people who have some concept of theories of knowledge will accept facts and happily 'lose' the argument. Admittedly, one massive problem is pride: people don't like to lose. This is often hard to get around, but I feel that if people had more of a handle on debating and theories of knowledge, pride would be more regularly swallowed or people would not commit their pride to arguments. I think the same goes for the idea of 'shouting matches'. As people are better educated, they will become more accustomed to 'polite' argument.
One problem I sense with tenure is that it allows people like Noam Chomsky to espouse views which are factually dubious at best. Again, if educational standards were broadly higher, people would be less likely to listen to him.

On another tangent: I would personally like to see further integration of the military and liberal institutions such as colleges. This could be achieved through better ROTC programs and some attempt at restoring the concept of the military as a rite of citizenship/passage like it was in WW2. I think this is important because colleges could use some backbone and the military could (IMO, not as an insult in any way) use a little bit of liberalization (afterall, the OSS was created under similar circumstances).

Roycroft201

12-03-2005, 23:11

Solid:

RE: your tangent.......and it is a good one, btw,

I'm in need of some clarification of your opinion......

Which is the cart and which is the horse ?

Our 'declining' education system is resulting in jobs being sent elsewhere OR
the fact that in order to remain competitive economically, we have had to ship many jobs elsewhere and this is effecting the education system as it has historically existed?

??
RC201

Solid

12-03-2005, 23:21

Roycroft:
I'm afraid I mis-represented my argument. To clarify: the reason jobs are going overseas is simply that labor over there works for less, not for educational reasons over here. Our citizens are still capable of semi/unskilled labor, they just cost a lot more than, say, Chinese ones. Outsourcing doesn't to my knowledge effect education standards.

What I meant was that to maintain a comparative advantage in the global economy, we will probably rely on the creation of intellectual property/entrepeneurship as our chief "export". To make sure that we continue to produce enough intellectual property to maintain our economic position, we will need to make sure that education levels are high/higher than they currently are. The more educated people we have, the more intellectual capital we create, the better our global economic position.

Sorry that I wasn't clear before, I got to bed fairly late this morning.

Solid

NousDefionsDoc

12-04-2005, 07:10

I wouldn't predicate my economic status on intellectual property, there is very little respect for intellectual property rights outside of the nation that "holds" them. And there is very little way to enforce them in a consumer driven market. People don't give a tinker's damn (normal people) where something was made or if the inventor is getting screwed. They care how much it costs and if it works.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned regarding the decline is the corresponding decline (my perception) in traditional family and values. The parent's share of the blame if you will. Schools have ceased to be a place to learn and have become instead a holding area. There is no competition, no reward for improvement and no drive to excel - either at home or in the school. A "C" has come to mean the same as an "A" in my day.

"Results oriented" no longer applies from what I can see. Fear of offending the stupid and lazy has become the driver instead of rewarding the outstanding.

And it extends to all levels. Remember when the Nobel Prize meant something?

I'm not too worried though, there will always be those that can find it from within and find it on their own.

I agree that the job departure is economic. The shareholder system causes it. In the ever increasing need to show the shareholders improvement from quarter to quarter, the long run is completely ignored. There are no minimum standards. If you want the jobs to stay, you have to level the playing field. Cut the loop holes. And reward those companies that do it it right. In the rush to avoid offending other nations, we allow them to shit all over our own workers while they protect theirs. You want a lamp from China? Fine, but you are going to pay a Human Rights Violator tax at the port where it came in. It won't be cheaper because they don't play by the same rules. People will be bitch, but they will pay it.

QRQ 30

12-04-2005, 07:44

To make direct comparisons between U.S. and Europaen education systems is usually invalid. I left the education field in 1963 when I joined the army but doubt that the overall concepts have changed that much.

In many Europaen countries youth are tested and categorized at a very early age. They are classified and sent down various routes -- trade school or college prep. They have no equivalent to our High School however the graduates of the academies or college prep schools are essentially on a level of our junior college college graduates. In the universities, we tend to catch up with and even surpass the europaen schools at the Bachelor's degree level and above. This isn't the only reason but a major reason so many europaens come to the States for University.

The europaen system was trashed in this country at a pretty early time since it tends to discriminate and deny some of an equal opportunity for education. Segration of superior students has been tried several times and stopped because of cries of discrimination. There is good reason for equal opportunities, OTOH affirmative action has also proved discriimatory.

As for liberal professors, they are alright too. Most, regardless of their views include a rider in their exams such as:"Support your answer". At this point it is no longer a matter of what your view is but how well you substantiate it.

My God, I'd hate to even visualize college classes filled with flag waving, super conservative zealots. That reminds me of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. It is best to let people choose their loyalty.

For the record, I have monitored several boards with debates between liberals and conservatives and both tend to have blind unwavering lemmings who consider a discussion as name calling and shouting down rgeir opponents.

BMT (RIP)

12-04-2005, 08:12

NousDefionsDoc

12-04-2005, 09:14

My high school Sr. class gets together quarterly for lunch,before and after lunch small groups form and discuss various subjects.
There was that in my school too, only it was daily. We called them "Stoners' or "Heads". LOL:D

Martin

12-04-2005, 10:25

Good thread, thanks.

Martin

cback0220

12-04-2005, 11:13

The europaen system was trashed in this country at a pretty early time since it tends to discriminate and deny some of an equal opportunity for education. Segration of superior students has been tried several times and stopped because of cries of discrimination. There is good reason for equal opportunities, OTOH affirmative action has also proved discriimatory.

QRQ 30,

This still happens in the US. There is something called GATE in California. Everyone they think is really smart takes a test, I did in fourth grade, and then the highest scorers are put in a seperate class, if the kids so choose. They do this for the kids they think are not being challenged. This may not happen anymore, but just a few years ago it was.

cback0220

12-04-2005, 11:17

Who was your best professor, teacher,instructor and why? My high school Sr. class gets together quarterly for lunch,before and after lunch small groups form and discuss various subjects. Somewhere along the way we end up discussing our teachers on the subject being discussed.
Think back to what teacher,professor,instructor that instilled a desire to learn and be competative.

BMT
4th Grade Blue Bird Group

My sixth grade teacher at Sycamore Canyon Elementary, and my ninth grade English and Algebra teacher were my best, and they kept me out of trouble, kinda helped shape who I am today. Great ladies!

HOLLiS

12-04-2005, 12:22

cback, Yes in Oregon kids are separated by ability, there maybe three classes, TAG (talented and gifted), regular and then some kind of special ed/Title I type program. There may even be a forth, a separate school or class for drop outs, to recycle them back into the system or to help them obtain a GED. Kids may even be in a mix of classes, such as a TAG student who is also in special ed and regular classes.

Mainstreaming idea failed. Especially today when class size is as high as it is. The kids who need extra help or a more challenging education would get left behind.

Solid; On your statement, "Outsourcing doesn't to my knowledge effect education standards." I would think it does on a financial bases. Jobs/industry provides the necessary revenues to operate a school system. As those revenues diminish, the quality of education is reduced. IMHO a Intellectual Property Industry would create a greater division of the classes in society. JOBS at home finance our Educational Systems. There will always be a majority of people who will not be able to perform at a highly intellectually challenging level. Other countries would also "create" their Intellectual markets too. I am not saying a intellectual market should not be a part of out marketing mix, or exports. IMHO, all humans as a group has the same capacities. Intelligence is not limited to nationality, race, sex, TV etc.

Also culturally, education is not equally valued among all of our sub-cultures. Kids who are children of "college" educated parents are more likely to attend college. Look at the differences educational levels in schools were the majority of parents are professional/college educated and schools where parents are not.

BTW, economics is some what like war, The other side is doing it's best to defeat our economic plans and obtain the economics upper hand.

The fluidity of global trade has weakened economic advantages based on natural resources. Japan is a example, while relatively short of natural resources, Japanese can import and use it's labor force to create and export. This has fueled the idea in the USA of Intellectual property export market. Problem is that all societies, in time, can build that same market. The greatest resource a country has, is it's People. Education is developing that resource.

let me reiterate my point. Educational system requires a economic system with a surplus. The amount the of surplus will establish the quality of education the educational system would be able to provide. The lost of jobs and business' over seas will diminish our educational system ability to provide the best in education needs and to meet the needs of all the students effectively, regardless of the student's economic class or some predetermined goals established for that student by some committee.

Solid

12-04-2005, 13:29

A guest speaker here made an interesting argument: Capitalism works perfectly well. It has resulted in, globally, an increased range of products available to people at consistently lower prices. This is especially true in this country, where previously the rich rode in carriages and the poor walked: now, the majority of Americans have cars. The one problem with Capitalism is not in its functioning- it works perfectly- but in that it is not 'moral'. For example: Walmart moves into an area and begins providing a wider range of goods at far lower prices than local stores. This is better for the consumer, but not drives the local stores out of business. Another example would be outsourcing. Jobs are lost in America so that the consumer may enjoy lower prices on a multitude of goods. Capitalism works, but it isn't 'moral'.

As for IP rights- corporations that can only really exist in the west due to technological and educational advances (the pharma industry, for example), are globally criticized for holding their patents too tightly. With complicated products, which are ultimately what the U.S. would design as IP, reverse-engineering becomes very, very difficult. Taiwanese GDP, for example, is already significantly comprised of IP revenue, not to mention entrepeneurship revenue.

Hollis: I agree with what you are saying about outsourcing long-term effecting education standards, but by the point where outsourcing had decreased tax revenue for the government to the point where education was being impinged upon, education would not be the biggest of our worries.

Also, while intelligence is not a national or racial asset, EDUCATION, and a superior education system, is. The US college education system has created a massive 'brain-drain' on the rest of the world. As long as this continues, we will have enough people to fuel an IP driven (but never solely IP) economy.
I don't like seeing the economy as war- it's not a zero-sum game. Japan, Germany, and America, for example, all rose as economic leaders post WW2. They did so symbiotically, not parasitically or in opposition to each other's success.

NDD: Absolutely agree with you on the point about the lack of motivation in schools, and the source of this problem.

QRQ30: The french education system has actually broadened significantly in recent years so that profession is no longer chosen at a high-school level. The same cannot be said of the British system, but the brits are moving towards the French model as we speak. In switzerland, however, high school education is only provided to those who pass a hard test at the age of 13. Those that do, however, study a broad array of topics not limited to future profession.

As for the idea that both the libs and conservatives have lemmings, absolutely agree. It is the moderate areas in both fields where a large portion of the 'helpful' thinking is done, simply because dogma does not limit thought as greatly in that middle spectrum.

And finally: I have a professor and advisor here who taught me Cold War politics. He is truly inspirational: a genuine hard-ass who doesn't tolerate intellectual showboating, cuts the BS, and argues hard and fast. Scary as hell to argue with, though...

Thanks,

Solid

jon448

12-06-2005, 11:06

Solid,
I agree with most of what you are saying however I think you might have misinterpreted what Hollis was getting at. I don't believe he meant the loss of tax-revenue due to out-sourcing, but I think he meant that the loss of jobs requiring college educated people to perform them would reduce the number of college educated people in the future. This is because a kid who has 2 parents is much more likely to go to college then a kid who doesn't have a parent who went to college. Although this is proven inaccurate time and time again, I'm sure I've seen statistics showing that it is true in the long-term(I just currently don't have time to find said stats) and for the majority of people. I mean aren't you "amazed" when you see someone break the mold of what his/her parents do/did and get a degree and move on to become successful.
That's where the long-term problem comes in, where we have an economy that removes the emphesis on education to provide for your family.
Edited to add: NDD, I don't necessarily agree with you about the current lack of motivation although I might just be lucky enough to go to a college where grades are important and work at a high school where the kids are highly motivated as well.

Jon