View Full Version : On Killing
I'm about halfway through the book On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. I had to stop reading it for a while in order to get some distance from what the author was talking about and regain my objectivity. I didn't post this in the book section as my question is not about the book so much as some of the statistics and theories he discusses.
The author contends that only 1 or 2 soldiers of ten actually fired thier weapons with an intent to kill the enemy in WWII. This ratio does not reflect support personnel who were not on the front lines. It's 20% of infantrymen on the front lines in a position to fire on the enemy.
In a story about the civil war he writes:
"Author of the Civil War Collector's Enclyopedia F.A. Lord tells that after the battle of Gettysburg, 27,574 muskets were recovered from the battlefield. Of these, nearly 90 percent (twenty-four thousand) were loaded. Twelve thousand of these loaded muskets were found to loaded more than once, and six thousand of the multi load eapons had from three to ten rounds loaded in the barrel. One weapon had been loaded twent-three times."
It's his contention that these soldiers went through the motions of fighting but did not or would not shoot at the enemy.
I guess I've been living under a rock, but the above took me by surprise. Of the folks on this site who have been in combat, is this equally surprising?
....It's his contention that these soldiers went through the motions of fighting but did not or would not shoot at the enemy.
I guess I've been living under a rock, but the above took me by surprise. Of the folks on this site who have been in combat, is this equally surprising?
One should not put too much though into the "Why" of muzzle loading single shot rifles used in combat. At the time of the civil war soldiers and armies were still trained in stand-up volley fire warfare. That changed as the war progressed but the basic training an entry level soldier got remained the same.
In a general engagement where the firing was hot and heavy a soldier could make a mistake in one of the nine loading steps. Step four comes to mind. Not knowing he had a misfire the soldier would continue to load, stacking more rounds into the barrel.
Instead of using gross numbers of weapons picked up on a battlefield a better study would have been "WHERE" they were found on the battlefield and which units fought in that spot or crossed that ground.
Some commanders gave the order to load but not prime when making an attack. A large attack under such conditions, win or lose, would show a large number of loaded (one round only) weapons on the field in that area. A regiment that was cut off and forced to surrender would also show a lot of loaded weapons in that spot.
A sharp fast attack against a fairly new unit could show a number of weapons with multiple rounds because a new troops might not know he had a misfire.
The Bean Counters of that time didn't care about deeper things, only the condition of things lost and found. Kinda' like it is today.
As a side note - there are a number of first person accounts of where the individual soldier didn't want to shoot a person. He would load and fire but not really aim, just kinda' point it in the same direction everybody else did. Still, 450-1,000 guys pointing their rifles over "there" and pulling the trigger is going to sling a lot of lead.
Just a few thoughts.
Pete
The Reaper
10-30-2005, 13:36
Grossman is a nice guy.
Having said that, he cherry picks statistics, selectively uses history, creates unwarranted hypotheses, and reaches unsupportable conclusions. He is also anti-gun.
I think he had an idea worthy of a small monograph, and has turned it into a post-military career (killogy.com). His writing is monotonous repetition of the same material, proceeded by marginally relevant quotes with minimal scientific analysis.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
uboat509
10-30-2005, 16:24
I have heard a number of times that 90% percent of the killing is is conducted by 10% percent of the soldiers in battle.
SFC W
The Reaper
10-30-2005, 17:00
I have heard a number of times that 90% percent of the killing is is conducted by 10% percent of the soldiers in battle.
SFC W
Possibly, but I have also heard that a fat old man flies around in a sleigh pulled by magic reindeer and climbs down chimneys to deliver all of the presents on Christmas as well.
TR
A little off subject here but my Uncle use to own a Farm in Fredericksburg VA in the 50's. Every year when they plowed their fields they dug up countless Civil War relics. Thankfully he knew the value of these items. To this day he has trunk loads of Civil War relics in his cellar. Enough to fill a Team Room floor to ceiling (Im not exaggerating it's amazing) Every time to this day when I visit his home now in Massachusetts I head straight to his cellar to explore these priceless trunks full of relics. I still have not been thru every Trunk to this day. When I was a kid I noticed many of the Rifle Barrels had several rounds loaded in them. It was years later that I found out the reason for this as stated above. My uncle is very old know, Sick and not able to even care for himself. My Mom (His Sister) has made several requests to have all the Civil War items willed to her so they stay in the family. Our greatest fear is when he passes away his two greedy Sons who are waiting for him to die just for his money. Have no idea or concern for the value of these relics and will put them on eBay for the money. Anyone want to volunteer for a covert Civil War Relic rescue operation in Mass in the future........Just kidding, Thanks for letting me rant some.
CPTAUSRET
10-30-2005, 17:13
I have had to stand in front of my CO (heels locked) on more than one occasion, attempting
to explain why my windshield had mud on it...The obvious answer was that I had to fly that close to the target to eliminate it.
Hope that made sense.
Terry
Bill Harsey
10-30-2005, 18:24
A little off subject here but my Uncle use to own a Farm in Fredericksburg VA in the 50's. Every year when they plowed their fields they dug up countless Civil War relics. Thankfully he knew the value of these items. To this day he has trunk loads of Civil War relics in his cellar. Enough to fill a Team Room floor to ceiling (Im not exaggerating it's amazing) Every time to this day when I visit his home now in Massachusetts I head straight to his cellar to explore these priceless trunks full of relics. I still have not been thru every Trunk to this day. When I was a kid I noticed many of the Rifle Barrels had several rounds loaded in them. It was years later that I found out the reason for this as stated above. My uncle is very old know, Sick and not able to even care for himself. My Mom (His Sister) has made several requests to have all the Civil War items willed to her so they stay in the family. Our greatest fear is when he passes away his two greedy Sons who are waiting for him to die just for his money. Have no idea or concern for the value of these relics and will put them on eBay for the money. Anyone want to volunteer for a covert Civil War Relic rescue operation in Mass in the future........Just kidding, Thanks for letting me rant some.
Sir,
That is an amazing story. Best of luck with what has been found and collected.
Count me and (I'll volunteer him) The Reaper in for the rescue and recovery.
There sure was a record amount of killing during the Civil War for all those numbers who supposedly didn't want to fight.
That's a kind of not disputable fact.
Kyobanim
10-30-2005, 18:46
Possibly, but I have also heard that a fat old man flies around in a sleigh pulled by magic reindeer and climbs down chimneys to deliver all of the presents on Christmas as well.
TR
HAHAHAHAHAHA:D
A little off subject here but my Uncle use to own a Farm in Fredericksburg VA in the 50's. Every year when they plowed their fields they dug up countless Civil War relics. Thankfully he knew the value of these items. To this day he has trunk loads of Civil War relics in his cellar. Enough to fill a Team Room floor to ceiling (Im not exaggerating it's amazing) Every time to this day when I visit his home now in Massachusetts I head straight to his cellar to explore these priceless trunks full of relics. I still have not been thru every Trunk to this day. When I was a kid I noticed many of the Rifle Barrels had several rounds loaded in them. It was years later that I found out the reason for this as stated above. My uncle is very old know, Sick and not able to even care for himself. My Mom (His Sister) has made several requests to have all the Civil War items willed to her so they stay in the family. Our greatest fear is when he passes away his two greedy Sons who are waiting for him to die just for his money. Have no idea or concern for the value of these relics and will put them on eBay for the money. Anyone want to volunteer for a covert Civil War Relic rescue operation in Mass in the future........Just kidding, Thanks for letting me rant some.
Today 18:00
I'm facinated with Civil War relics as well as the history. Good luck on keeping those treasures.
The author's contention was that most of the killing was done by artillery. The further away you are. the easier it is. However, he said the percentages of folks who were actively shooting at the enemy in vietnam and Iraq( both wars) were dramtically higher. He attributes this to training methods.
As TR mentioned, he may be cherry picking statistics to skew the results or drawing premature conclusions. Some of the stuff was fascinating, some seemed to be the result of narrow interpetation.
For instance, in the battle of Cold Harbor, he said the great number of casualties in the Union army was strickly related to artillery. However, in Douglas Southall Freeman's volumes related to R. E. Lee he talks about a 19in. diameter tree being cut in half by small arms fire.
Probably the most interesting item I've read so far is the correlation he makes between combat stress and killing the enemy. He contends that folks in war who do not shoot at the enemy have very little post war stress problems; whereas those who did suffer the most.
Many people have said that there were a lot of fake fights during the civil war, often times because you may have had relatives fighting for both sides. Who wants to kill their brother, uncle, or cousin?
SH 21-76 Ranger Handbook Page 14-6 CQC -- Dated April 2000
"Note: Research has determined, that on average, only three individuals out of ten actually fire their weapons when confronted by an enemy during room clearing operations."
There is no note as to whose research, or when and where it was conducted, but it does seem a little off to me.
Wait, my wife reminded me that tonight when we were watching Off to War on the Discovery Times channel, (its a documentary of a NG unit going to Iraq), their convoy got ambushed. They were taking RPG's and small arms fire. The gunner on the Humvee with the 240B never returned fire, he just ducked down into the vehicle and did a terrific job of looking scared shitless. I guess he's one of the seven.
S
Team Sergeant
10-30-2005, 20:13
Wait, my wife reminded me that tonight when we were watching Off to War on the Discovery Times channel, (its a documentary of a NG unit going to Iraq), their convoy got ambushed. They were taking RPG's and small arms fire. The gunner on the Humvee with the 240B never returned fire, he just ducked down into the vehicle and did a terrific job of looking scared shitless. I guess he's one of the seven.
S
Stakk4,
I take it you've been shot at? 126th Finance BN got into a lot of fights in Iraq I hear.....
My suggestion, unless you have walked the walk STFU. Got it?
Team Sergeant
NousDefionsDoc
10-30-2005, 20:14
Probably the most interesting item I've read so far is the correlation he makes between combat stress and killing the enemy. He contends that folks in war who do not shoot at the enemy have very little post war stress problems; whereas those who did suffer the most.
I am reading the book now. I am not at all sure this contention is correct. During my time in SF, I had the priviledge to serve with some people I have little doubt KIAd a buttload of people. They were stable, well-adjusted family men. Of course one never knows for sure what goes on in the deep recesses of the hard drive, but I didn't get the impression that they suffered from anything more serious than a complete lack of tolerance for fools and amateurs.
I would suspect that in reality, quite a bit of "post war stress problems" are more prevelant in other than those directly engaged. I also suspect quite a bit of it, while real, is self-induced to some degree - like most stress.
Combat soldiers I have known, including Little People, tend to be very pragmatic and realistic.
I also have no doubt that one can convince one's self that one has PTSD so thoroughly that one actually "gets" it.
Not making a blanket statement or belittling or accusing anyone. Just making the observation that actually shooting people that are shooting at you can be a significant stress release.
The Reaper
10-30-2005, 20:36
Try this read.
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
TR
There were sure a lot of casualties for such little shooting.:rolleyes:
I will admit that in a fire fight the up close and personal/look him in the eye shot may be rare and be disturbing to some. The tendancy in Vietnam was to "hose the area down" and create a "killing zone". Defensive positions were devised with interlocking fields of fire. The principle was to fire at an angle and not actually see the enemy approaching your position. He was taken care of by fire from another position. These positions were named for the inventor. CRS his name but DePugh comes to mind. I think he commanded the Americal Div. Don't hold me to that.
OTOH< I never gave it any thought, I once looked an NVA right in the eye as I greased him. I haven't lost any sleep yet!:D
CoLawman
10-30-2005, 23:09
Possibly, but I have also heard that a fat old man flies around in a sleigh pulled by magic reindeer and climbs down chimneys to deliver all of the presents on Christmas as well.
TR
2005 Best Quote?!
LMAO
2005 Best Quote?!
LMAO
Impossible!! Fat men can't climb down chimenies.:D
CoLawman
10-30-2005, 23:26
Try this read.
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
TR
Hard to dispute that Aveni dominated the debate. Thanks for the Post TR!
CombatWombat
11-01-2005, 17:20
With the statistics that Grossman uses, he also indicates that there was a lack of desensitization of soldiers up until the Vietnam era of conflict. He also uses industrial countries and not third world countries in his studies.
Also as the Head Wolf of CCI said that there were only two types of people a wolf and a sheep while Grossman states that there are three: a wolf, a sheep, and a sheepdog.
CPTAUSRET
11-01-2005, 21:09
I personally think that an individual is much better off, if said individual can get some payback, ie if he is able to put rounds downrange which take out the "bad guys"!
I have no PTSD related problems, whatsoever! I attribute this (at least in part) to the fact that I flew only gunships, I ALWAYS got payback. I also got up close and personal a couple of times, not on purpose, but this happens when they shoot you down and you run out of ammo. You resort to whatever is at hand, luckily I had a knife, I wish I had had one of Bill Harsey's knives, but I had my survival knife which was not a great knife, but it did the job. I am here, and Charlie isn't.
I think the medics of yesteryear, who didn't put rounds down range, and who watched their buddies die after they had done everything possible they could do to save them, would be far more susceptible to stress related problems than our 18D's, who are trained to eliminate the threat before attempting to patch up their guys.
More than I usually post, blame it on the wine.
Terry
Terry, you would say then that slick pilots would suffer more from PTSD? Robert Mason seems to make that point in his book, but I don't know he was the exception.
CPTAUSRET
11-01-2005, 21:35
Terry, you would say then that slick pilots would suffer more from PTSD? Robert Mason seems to make that point in his book, but I don't know he was the exception.
Huey:
I don't know that I would be that specific, but I would think that in general terms, if someone were going to spend many years flying in combat, they would probably be better off flying guns than say bringing back mangled American bodies...Some who had been left on the battlefleld long enough that arms and legs pulled off when they were loaded into the ship. That wouldn't have been something I would have handled well.
As opposed to what I did.
Terry
Thank you for the reply Terry.
I personally think that an individual is much better off, if said individual can get some payback, ie if he is able to put rounds downrange which take out the "bad guys"!
A few months ago an Australian magazine did a story on the deficencies in the way that the Defence Force was handling mental illness in its soldiers, including PTSD.
What I found interesting (and very sad) was that the anecdotal stories quoted in the article from soldiers suffering severe PTSD seems to support this.
The story that sticks with me was from a soldier on a peace-keeping mission recently in Indonesia?, forced to watch an Indonesian policeman shoot dead a 10-yr old girl in front of him after her (refugee) family had pleaded with the soldiers team for help. The policeman smiled tauntingly at the soldier after the act because he knew the soldier was powerless to react and that there would be no repercussions.
The soldier suffered not from the ugliness of the act, but from the feeling of total helplessness and frustration in not being able to stop it or kill the guy after.
From the story IIRC, it seemed that peace-keeping missions where the army is heavily proscribed in their ability to act is even more stressful on the soldiers than straight warfare.
Read it, will read it again...
Training plays a "major" role on how an individual will react.
Take care.
Read it, will read it again...
Training plays a "major" role on how an individual will react.
Take care.
Its hard to find truer words than that. In Basic Training we had a student who was a combat veteran with the [Brits. We asked him what it was like in combat and he said it was just like we were seeing right in training. He was so correct. When first under fire nothing was different from the many training exercises I had participated in -- especially the noise. The more realistic and more often the training the better the soldier will perform. It becomes auto-reflex. Two incidents from the beginning of OIF come to mind. A support convoy is ambushed and the people hunkered down in the killing zone rather than attacking (basic IAD). A marine combat unit is ambushed and a marine commander turns into and attacks the ambush following basic IAD and he probably reacted without thinking too much about it because he had done it many times in training.
I am a little concerned of things I hear about the PC attitude of the training of today's soldiers. Hopefully it is more talk than fact but I have heard that such "agressive" actions as shouting "KILL' and die MO FO are no longer allowed in bayonet training. Like it or not soldiers are killers. I believe the mission of the infantry, as well as other units in the military, is still to close with and KILL the enemy.:lifter
Let me add upon further consideration that the military really hasn't became as PC as some would like. I have seen many interviews with commanders who were asked what would hapen under certain circumstances and the gist is always;"we kill them".
One of the interesting studies in the book was related to intereviews with two different groups: first - Israelis coming back from combat, and I believe Swedish soldiers after a non combative peace keeping mission.
The Israelis said their number one fear in combat was the fear of letting their fellow soldier down. Being killed or severely injured was third or fourth on their list. The number one fear for the peacekeeping forces was death or injury. The study which was undertaken by military psychologist Ben Shalit caused him to come to the conclusion that combat experience decreases fear of death or injury.
In Black Hawk Down one of the young rangers was talking about his first time in combat and I believe he said his first emotion was surprise that someone was trying to kill him, then fear, then he got pissed and he was okay after that.
This thread is fairly old, but it seems to me something was left unsaid. It seems the book On Killing and our discussion focused on two different points. One deals with the training which enables a normal person to kill the enemy when the opportunity arises and second, the effect of killing the enemy on the person involved. As both my sons are deployed, one as a sniper with the 82nd and one with 3rd group in Afghanistan, the likelihood of either or both having the opportunity to kill the enemy was high and it caused me some concern which led me to this book. By the way, both have since sent a few to be with Allah, and apparently they are at peace with this situation.
However, it seems our society is quick to send young men off to war, but turns its collective head when it comes to acknowledging the deeds they are required to do. In reading Gate of Fire it appears the Greeks were more pragmatic when it came to combat establishing a system of thought to make the transition from combat back to normal society. On page 131 King Leonidas talks about a man being made of two parts. The best part “…a man sets aside and leaves behind. He banishes from his heart all feelings of tenderness and mercy, all compassion and kindness, all thought or concept of the enemy as a man, a human being like himself…Then the man returns, alive, out of the slaughter. He hears his name called and comes forward to take his ticket. He reclaims that part of himself which he had earlier set aside.”
They acknowledged the condition and made provisions. We on the other hand are doing everything possible to ignore this condition and at times are actively thwarting any system which can provide some succor. In Boots on the Ground by Clint Willis, he talks about how our chaplains are restricted in the spiritual support which can be provided to our troops. The military has created a very PC environment limiting what spiritual support chaplains can provide so as not to offend the Muslin contingent in our armed services.
As always, those who are left in the lurch are very ones who are asked to undertake the most difficult tasks: our soldiers and marines.
SouthernDZ
02-17-2007, 05:02
In Basic Training we had a student who was a combat veteran with the [Brits. We asked him what it was like in combat and he said it was just like we were seeing right in training.
As long as it's not too much like training. There are instances where SWAT guys were killed and found with spent brass in their pockets. When you are stopping in the middle of a firefight to police up your brass, it's a little too much like when you were training.
I'm facinated with Civil War relics as well as the history. Good luck on keeping those treasures.
Sadly my Uncle passed away in Nov 2006 after a long battle with Parkinson's. With the help of his two sisters, one being my Mom he had his will in order. The Civil War collection was split up with a large portion safe in my Moms and Aunt's houses. He served in Europe during WWII. He had a large collection of Weapons and Gear. A couple of Luger's were in that collection. I guess it was fairly easy to get these things home then. His Gun collection along with all his Military items went to his sons and was sold soon after. His sons single handedly wiped out any memory of his Military service, even sold his photos from the war. Hard part to understand is they are very well off financially and had no need for the money. After they sold it they said they didn't have any room to store it. Next time I go home to N.Y I will take photos of the Civil War items and post them.
sfbaby1982
02-17-2007, 14:41
Sorry man, I know where you are comming from. Good work on preserving all that for future generations.
Ricky
uboat509
02-17-2007, 16:01
LTC Grossman came to give a lecture to 10th Group back in January. I had read his first book On Killing and I had many of the same misgivings about his conclusions that many of you have voiced, I still do in fact. But he did not talk about that much at all. He mostly talked about stuff from his second book On Combat and I was really impressed. He talked a lot about combat stress, what to do and not do and he also went a lot into mindset. Most of the people I talked to at the lecture were impressed by it and I have since started reading the book and it id pretty good.
He is also anti-gun.
I don't think that this is true. One of the things that he asked us was "If you don't have a CCW, why not?" He suggested that if we could legally carry a gun then we should.
Also as the Head Wolf of CCI said that there were only two types of people a wolf and a sheep while Grossman states that there are three: a wolf, a sheep, and a sheepdog
I agree with LTC Grossman on this one. Wolves are predators but they feed on the sheep (IE terrorists, criminals, lawyers etc.). Sheepdogs are predators also but they protect the sheep and feed on the wolves (Police, firefighters, soldiers etc.). I think that it is a pretty good analogy. It explains why most people don't understand the military, we are there to protect them but we are still predators and that makes the sheep nervous. A sheepdog is every bit as violent and deadly as the wolf but the difference is where the violence is directed. A wolf will attack a sheepdog under the right circumstances but prefers to attack the sheep as they are easier prey. The sheepdog only hunts the wolves.
SFC W
The Reaper
02-17-2007, 16:27
I don't think that this is true. One of the things that he asked us was "If you don't have a CCW, why not?" He suggested that if we could legally carry a gun then we should. SFC W
He comes off that way in his books.
He also seems to blame firearms for crazed high school muderers, like Dylan and Klebold as well.
TR
uboat509
02-17-2007, 18:02
That may be. When he talked about Columbine it wasn't about the motivations of the two killers but rather the lack of preparedness of the school. He made an interesting point that had a fire occurred in the building he had no doubt that the teachers would have known exactly what to do but when the shooting started the teachers had no idea because it had never occurred to them to think about it much less rehearse some sort of drill. Had the teachers just gone into a classroom and locked the door it would have seriously curtailed the killing but they panicked because they had never rehearsed what to do and they simply told the children to hide, in a library, surrounded by glass walls and that was where the most killings took place. He also talked a length about Beslan and the horror that took place there. He showed us a book about what happened there, including many details that the MSM never reported. The author also makes a frightening point about UBL in that he tries never to lie and he says that Beslan was a dress rehearsal for an attack on an American school.
SFC W
bost1751
02-18-2007, 09:38
I did not take it that Grossman blamed firearms for the high schools shooting b ut that the violent video games and crazed rapper lyrics were amajor factor in the increase in violence among this particular generation. I also do not think Grossman can be blamed, or held accountable for civil war and WW II observations and statistics.
We talk to a very small segment in a very select group of people. The military also changed their training methods throughout the years to improve the mind set of soldiers. These techniques have found there way into te methods law enforcement trains also.
It not really if you totally dislike or disagree with Grossman.Take it for what is worth and compare to other authors on this subject. Besides, what are our credentials to blast him or support him?
NousDefionsDoc
02-18-2007, 10:54
I have read them. Paul Howe's book on mindset is much better IMO.
The Reaper
02-18-2007, 10:57
Grossman is IMHO, a decent guy who took a minor research paper built upon the work of SLA Marshall and turned it into a second career.
Again IMHO, his research is weak and his application of cases to support or refute his thesis is highly suspect. In my reading, his books appear to be more than 50% quotes from others, which is how a weak writer takes a work too small to make a book and turns it into one. Look at his table of contents. He takes an outline, researches each topic, usually for a single dubious case or quote that supports his thesis, and quotes it at length while writing his point for that outline topic in front and in back of it. I could write a book on subatomic particle decay or 15th Century fashion design that way. "On Combat", "On Killing", on Donder and Blitzen.:rolleyes: I have read better work from high school students.
His books are not particularly well-written, and are certainly not academically oriented, but seem sensationalist to me and I have read most , if not all of them. "5.56 and 9mm are designed to wound, not kill". Right. To me, putting into print serious technical errors, and assumptions that rumors you heard in the barracks are true are the work of a weak mind.
I believe that his recent comments about Beslan are correct in the fact that they will be coming here to do the same thing, but are tremendously flawed in his analysis of the target selction criteria (avoiding areas because of concealed carry or firearms ownership, selection of junior high and middle schools for better sensationalist rape opportunities, etc.)
I am sure that Dave is a great guy and a good conversationalist, but he is a former Infantry NCO and officer who attended Ranger school and who has no personal combat experience, which would seem to be the core of his writing and Killology topics.
Just my personal opinion but Grossman is a one-trick pony who has developed an unwarranted cult-like following by inartfully writing and repeating what people want to hear.
YMMV.
TR
Team Sergeant
02-18-2007, 11:32
I did not take it that Grossman blamed firearms for the high schools shooting b ut that the violent video games and crazed rapper lyrics were amajor factor in the increase in violence among this particular generation.
I grew up watching the Vietnam war, The Rifleman, Gunsmoke, the Battle of the Buldge, the Big Red One, The Green Berets, etc etc etc (I do not think there was an episode of the Rifleman where he didn't kill someone.) I've yet to walk into a mall or school and kill dozens of unarmed people.
IMO stupid is as stupid does. Blaming media violence for ones own actions is ludicrous at best. Sorta like blaming MacDonalds for getting fat.
Let's place the blame on those morons that commit the senseless acts of violence.
TS
The Reaper
02-18-2007, 11:41
I think bad parenting (if any) is a lot more to blame for violent youths than guns, videos, or rap (not music).
TR
I grew up watching the Vietnam war, The Rifleman, Gunsmoke, the Battle of the Buldge, the Big Red One, The Green Berets, etc etc etc (I do not think there was an episode of the Rifleman where he didn't kill someone.) I've yet to walk into a mall or school and kill dozens of unarmed people.
TS
You forgot Combat, 12:00 High, Rat Patrol (Yeah, it sucked, but) and a few of the other weekly shows where "the New Guy/Crew" bit the dust.
Pete
bost1751
02-18-2007, 21:05
I agree, lack of parenting, tight reins on LE and teachers, etc is the major contributor to the crap getting out of control. Our judicial system is in shambles. Attorney(s) continue to find ways to get richer, and sleasier. I still think some of these bullshit video games conribute to the desensitizing of the punks. That can easily go back to lack of parenting, lack of control or don't care.
Howe is my next book. It is setting on my night stand now.
It is great striking a cord on this thread.
When we look around it's easy to spot the many ailments in our society. It's not possible to swing a dead cat without hitting an offender. Parents, teachers, lawyers, politicians, etc. Part of me says I have seen the enemy and it is us. I guess that is where ultimately the blame must fall. However, I believe we are only seeing the symtoms, not the desease.
I believe a major portion of the responsibility must be laid at the doorstep of the clergy. When is the last time you met a person of the cloth that was even close to being squared away or normal? Do they even recognize their priorities? It's all about being liked. Should it be about money and selling books? Glad handing the rich? Or about having the biggest church or parish? Or is about a simple and timeless message that has unfortunately been so diluted that it is of no use to anyone?
When's the last time you heard a clergyman say "the battle is the Lord's," or advocating that it is the duty of the Americans to fight for their country and kill the enemy. No, it's all pc bs. They don't want to offend the big givers or the lady's cake boy group. It's no longer the power of the message; they now need to get everyone involved in this group or that activity. Keep them busy and out of trouble. It's all about being nice.
When we came to them they only offered us meaningless dribble, because they had forgotten the message or never knew it.
NousDefionsDoc
02-19-2007, 11:47
I will (perhaps) disagree with my Brothers here. I think tv, etc. is a contributing, not primary factor. I believe that desensitization does indeed play a role in outing already present bad tendencies.
I too believe that bad parenting is the critical factor. Not just for violence but for most of the problems caused by the youth of today.
I believe Dr. Spock was the beginning. My father (The Leg) was not my friend, he was my father. We didn't discuss shit - he ordered and I complied or faced the consequences, which were immediate and decisive. I apologized to him a coupld of years ago for my teen years. And I thanked him - he made me a better father.
I'm positive the producers of the 70s Show know him - he is Red Foreman.
I still think some of these bullshit video games contribute to the desensitizing of the punks
They have the cause and effect back wards. Where they got it wrong is in the direction these kids followed in life. Kids that are already mentally disturbed like the two Columbine kids are attracted to these games and violent TV. They were already screwed up before playing games. Violent TV and games attract these types of people. I still put most of the blame on the parents. Lets say violent TV and video games do contribute to violence. They would have to play and watch an all full lot to be desensitizing by it. Sure kids are going to sneak things by the best parent. But if they are doing it enough to seriously affect them then someone is not paying attention to them.
I will (perhaps) disagree with my Brothers here. I think tv, etc. is a contributing, not primary factor. I believe that desensitization does indeed play a role in outing already present bad tendencies.
I too believe that bad parenting is the critical factor. Not just for violence but for most of the problems caused by the youth of today.
I believe Dr. Spock was the beginning. My father (The Leg) was not my friend, he was my father. We didn't discuss shit - he ordered and I complied or faced the consequences, which were immediate and decisive. I apologized to him a coupld of years ago for my teen years. And I thanked him - he made me a better father.
I'm positive the producers of the 70s Show know him - he is Red Foreman.
:D
Amen, Brother! I remember one time offering up a smart remark to my dad. In the blink of an eye, I found myself on the ground after a good backhand. A lady who was nearby told him he shouldn't hit me. Dad's response was "He's my son. I'll beat him any way I want." Now my dad was not an abuser - but he was a strict authoritarian. I just wish I had the opportunity to tell him how right he was in bringing me up and the values he taught me. He died on Super Bowl 1 game day, and never got to see me make it through jump school, SF training, Vietnam, marriage and becoming a father myself. My son, currently serving with the 82nd in Iraq, still calls me 'Sir' and, although he's a lot faster than me, still can't match his dad in cunning.
Back in the 80's when I was a kid, (when space invaders and pac-man were the computer games of the moment) - we would play massive games of "armies" through our neighbourhood. We would go back to our empty school during holidays (on our BMX bikes) and use it as a sort of "urban warfare" play area.
When on vacation, we would stalk each other, set little traps etc...
I remember sitting high in my oak tree with my battery powered UZI water pistol and with some good mates we would try and spray water through the windows of the double decker bus that came past my house every afternoon.
We also played sport, did martial-arts and generally had a great childhood.
I submit that the games we played, where we pointed toy guns at real people did not cause any of us to walk into a school / mall and start killing people.
Our parents and teachers never worried about us losing it because we pretended to be shooting each other, they were too busy bringing us up properly and guess what happened?;
My buddies and I turned out ok.
Many served in Police / Miltary Units or in CT organisations. Most have since gone on to be accountants, doctors, lawyers or IT geeks.
They are all decent, hard-working family men, living all over the world and contributing to society wherever they may be.
Not a murderer among 'em.
Funny that....
G
bost1751
02-20-2007, 04:33
NDD. Very well put. I too was raised by my father. He taught me to be respectfully and discipline as well as how to fish, hunt, guns etc. He retired as an infantry 1SG, and was also a rifle coach. We knew our limits and did not push them because there were consequences for our actions.
Ret10Echo
02-20-2007, 06:02
The line between what is reality and fantasy has become blurred for kids. Mass media and video games don't help much but I think the parenting factor has more to do with it. It does truly take a village to raise an idiot, but one good parent to raise a decent member of society. Poor (non-existant) parenting leads down the path of self destruction. If I screwed up, dad brought the hammer down (and if dad didn't catch me any other adult who saw me chucking rocks at passing dump trucks). Kids will act according to what they get away with. Anyone who ever pushed troops knows that. Without limits there are no limits.
The_Future
02-24-2007, 15:24
The line between what is reality and fantasy has become blurred for kids. Mass media and video games don't help much but I think the parenting factor has more to do with it. It does truly take a village to raise an idiot, but one good parent to raise a decent member of society. Poor (non-existant) parenting leads down the path of self destruction. If I screwed up, dad brought the hammer down (and if dad didn't catch me any other adult who saw me chucking rocks at passing dump trucks). Kids will act according to what they get away with. Anyone who ever pushed troops knows that. Without limits there are no limits.
Being in my line of work (Dope Cop) you see the entire break down of the individual. From families who sell dope to those who are destroyed by dope. Reality is people don't fear consequences. Kids today are desensitized at a time in their life when morals and values should be instilled. Our kids are a product of the world that we as parents have created. Self gratification over what is best. This behavior is taught. I have investigated 12yr old kids selling multiple ounces of Crack Cocaine and caring semi-automatic weapons. And now society says you can't spank your kid. D*&$ that! I would rather you beat your kid everyday so when he/she grows up then I don't have to deal with them. In the end everything is a matter of choice which can be ingrained through the conscious or subconscious. If you think you are or pretend to be for long enough then eventually you will become. Art mimics life.
TheRider
02-25-2007, 00:10
Being in my line of work (Dope Cop) you see the entire break down of the individual. From families who sell dope to those who are destroyed by dope. Reality is people don't fear consequences. Kids today are desensitized at a time in their life when morals and values should be instilled. Our kids are a product of the world that we as parents have created. Self gratification over what is best. This behavior is taught. I have investigated 12yr old kids selling multiple ounces of Crack Cocaine and caring semi-automatic weapons. And now society says you can't spank your kid. D*&$ that! I would rather you beat your kid everyday so when he/she grows up then I don't have to deal with them. In the end everything is a matter of choice which can be ingrained through the conscious or subconscious. If you think you are or pretend to be for long enough then eventually you will become. Art mimics life.I may not be that old. But even the past maybe 6 years things have changed. You see kids around the mall crying and throwing tantrums. I remember when i was their age if i tried that crap i would get smack inside the store, then we would leave and go home and i'd get smacked again but this time worse. I mean my parents spanked or smacked me and i turned out fine... sorta. But seriously kids need to learn respect.
In Basic Training we had a student who was a combat veteran with the [Brits. We asked him what it was like in combat and he said it was just like we were seeing right in training.
As long as it's not too much like training. There are instances where SWAT guys were killed and found with spent brass in their pockets. When you are stopping in the middle of a firefight to police up your brass, it's a little too much like when you were training.
I remember this being discussed at HRP. People are so conditioned to do certain things while training that they do them in firefights as well.
Regarding the book On Killing, The Reaper pretty much summed up exactly how I feel about the book. There is definitely some interesting and useful information in the book, but I couldn't help but keep thinking to myself "Hey, this guy has never seen combat and never killed anyone. How is he going to write a book about something he knows nothing about?".
He definitely did a lot of research. I'm surprised I can't recite every quote he used in the book since he used each one numerous times.
All in all I do believe this is a must have book. I personally plan on grabbing a highlighter and going to town on the book, highlighting the useful stuff...once. :D
CoLawman
02-28-2007, 21:38
I will be attending his seminar on March 6th. He presented to 10th Group a few weeks back and my son recommended I attend.
Vakemp: It would be very difficult for you to defend your comment about Grossman not knowing anything. Mugwump has never had the bird flu, nor actually been exposed to individuals who have. Yet, I consider him an authority based on his research and studies in this area. In other words, I listen to what he has to say due to his credibility.
Grossman's book is invaluable to soldiers heading into combat. I particularly like Section III of "On Combat." Soldiers need to know credible information about their ability to survive and continue the fight if wounded. His recounting examples, in this section, reinforces the point he is trying to make. You can survive and continue to fight.
Caliber Press introduced their "Street Survival" series in the early 80's, using some of the same psychology and principles detailed by Grossman in his book.
I've read Grossman's two books and now will attend his seminar. If he gives an edge to my son psychologically, then he has accomplished what I assume he intended.
The Reaper
02-28-2007, 22:50
Not to step on toes, here, and I am sure there are pearls to be gleaned from Grossman's wisdom, but speaking as one SF soldier about another one, I am sure that your son already knows more about driving on through pain, injuries, sickness, etc. than LTC Grossman does. We make sure of that before we put our stamp of approval on him.
I would also hazard that there is a world of difference in knowing about physical properties of an issue and the mental or psychological aspect of human behavior. I can learn the former from a book or a physical examination, the latter requires experience. I can tell you how to shoot well, but there is no substitute for actually doing it yourself.
Grossman actually has three books out, and a videotape series.
Just my opinion.
TR
Vakemp: It would be very difficult for you to defend your comment about Grossman not knowing anything.
CoLawman: I wasn't trying to discredit LTC Grossman's works. I apologize if that is how I came across. I own both On Killing and On Combat and am glad I bought them. I found very useful information in both books. I just tend to be a bit skeptical about taking every word to heart. Not because I believe he is trying to be deceptive, but because his only source of information is other people's experiences. There is always the potential for something to get lost in translation, and that is all I meant by it.
I actually reference On Killing a lot when people ask me about PTSD and other psychological effects of combat. Most recently was last night over drinks with a lady friend. :D
I will (perhaps) disagree with my Brothers here. I think tv, etc. is a contributing, not primary factor. I believe that desensitization does indeed play a role in outing already present bad tendencies.
NDD,
Looks like this teacher agrees with you about TV and being desensitized.
I too believe the primary role of shaping kids does lie with the parents but as our kids mature we realize that our influence diminishes and peer influence increases. I read of an account some where of the hardening process of SS gaurds in the Nazi death camps. It was said that initially new guards were sickened by the executions they saw / took part in but with time it became a matter of “punching the clock”.
Tennessee High School Students Make Porn Film Between Classes
Thursday , March 01, 2007
Fox News
MAYNARDVILLE, Tenn. —
A group of Tennessee high school students are in hot water for trying to make a steamy porn movie between classes.
Four female and two male students were punished after a drama teacher caught them filming the flick in a Union County High School classroom.
Wayne Goforth, curriculum coordinator for the school district, told WATE-TV in Knoxville that the female students had stripped down to their underwear for the boys who were acting as the cameraman and emcee.
The drama teacher assigned to the classroom was on hall-monitoring duty, Goforth said.
"Personally I think students see too much on TV," Goforth told the station. "They like to mimic what they see, and if they're watching that sort of thing, of course they're going to copy that."
The students were suspended for various amounts of time, with two students being suspended for at least three days, the station said.
"For the most part, we have excellent students at Union County High School, and it is a learning experience," Goforth said. "And the behavior and discipline is just part of their learning experience."
Some of the students are in special education, he told the station. School authorities confiscated the tape.