View Full Version : Blackhawk Serpa Holster
Smokin Joe
10-29-2005, 07:27
I recently attended SouthNarc's IEK/ECQC course in Casa Grande, Az. I'm still working on my review and hope to have it up this weekend however something happened during the class that I feel I must share with you all immediately.
I was working with a guy who was wearing the new Blackhawk Serpa retention holster (located here (http://www.blackhawk.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=4025&d=) ); He had a Sims Glock 17 holstered and while doing some ground fighting. This holster had a catastrophic failure. This individual was unable to draw his pistol. Sand had found its way into the locking mechanism and the retention button was frozen in the locked position.
It is my advice that if you ever have to go into harms way that you leave this holster at home (or better yet just save your money).
I have a video of the incident and after I get it sterilized I will post it.
The Reaper
10-29-2005, 08:41
I have a simple rule for tactical gear.
If it says "Blackhawk" on it, I don't take it, even if it is free.
Too many rip-offs of other peoples' works, and quality right down there at the bottom of the pit, both materials and construction.
The stuff is okay for Airsofters, I guess. If you operate with it, it will fail, likely at the worst possible moment, and may get you killed.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Team Sergeant
10-29-2005, 08:42
I recently attended SouthNarc's IEK/ECQC course in Casa Grande, Az. I'm still working on my review and hope to have it up this weekend however something happened during the class that I feel I must share with you all immediately.
I was working with a guy who was wearing the new Blackhawk Serpa retention holster (located here (http://www.blackhawk.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=4025&d=) ); He had a Sims Glock 17 holstered and while doing some ground fighting. This holster had a catastrophic failure. This individual was unable to draw his pistol. Sand had found its way into the locking mechanism and the retention button was frozen in the locked position.
It is my advice that if you ever have to go into harms way that you leave this holster at home (or better yet just save your money).
I have a video of the incident and after I get it sterilized I will post it.
Blackhawk makes great Air-Soft equipment......
Personally I'd never use anything they make in actual combat.
TS
Still using an Eagle holster.
Team Sergeant
10-29-2005, 08:47
I have a simple rule for tactical gear.
If it says "Blackhawk" on it, I don't take it, even if it is free.
Too many rip-offs of other peoples' works, and quality right down there at the bottom of the pit, both materials and construction.
The stuff is okay for Airsofters, I guess. If you operate with it, it will fail, likely at the worst possible moment, and may get you killed.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
No one is going to believe we wrote the same thing one minute apart......
Joe,
I guess you know what we think about blackhawk gear.....
TS
Smokin Joe
10-29-2005, 09:01
No one is going to believe we wrote the same thing one minute apart......
Joe,
I guess you know what we think about blackhawk gear.....
TS
I'm completely agree!
Cincinnatus
10-29-2005, 11:06
Joe,
I heard about the Serpa failure from Gomez. That and the holster induced AD that Andy had in a class have made me VERY leery of any sort of high tech holster.
One thing I got out of the class w/ Gomez and SNarc was the superior retention capabilities of a leather IWB over kydex holsters or OWB holsters. When kydex holsters were first becoming popular, my training group did some tests and found there was a very consistent decrease (averaging .25 second) in the time from a start signal to first shot on target. A quarter second is a loooong time in a fight and many of us moved to kydex holsters.
In the gun grappling portion of the class w/ Paul and SNarc those using kydex found that speed of draw for the wearer also means ease of release for the BG. I suppose that if you're a civilian it's simply a trade off to weigh, but if you're LEO and find yourself grappling with BGs on a regular basis, IMO, leather IWB is the only way to go. I know I'm sticking w/ my Kramer #3. ;)
Tac holsters are outside of my experience. I seem to recall reading someone experiencing the shroud of their 6004 starting to bind up from sand in Iraq. I wonder if the old leather flapped holster is viable...
Smokin Joe
10-29-2005, 11:26
Joe,
I heard about the Serpa failure from Gomez. That and the holster induced AD that Andy had in a class have made me VERY leery of any sort of high tech holster.
One thing I got out of the class w/ Gomez and SNarc was the superior retention capabilities of a leather IWB over kydex holsters or OWB holsters. When kydex holsters were first becoming popular, my training group did some tests and found there was a very consistent decrease (averaging .25 second) in the time from a start signal to first shot on target. A quarter second is a loooong time in a fight and many of us moved to kydex holsters.
In the gun grappling portion of the class w/ Paul and SNarc those using kydex found that speed of draw for the wearer also means ease of release for the BG. I suppose that if you're a civilian it's simply a trade off to weigh, but if you're LEO and find yourself grappling with BGs on a regular basis, IMO, leather IWB is the only way to go. I know I'm sticking w/ my Kramer #3. ;)
Tac holsters are outside of my experience. I seem to recall reading someone experiencing the shroud of their 6004 starting to bind up from sand in Iraq. I wonder if the old leather flapped holster is viable...
Those were almost my exact observations as well. I like kydex, its fast, durable, requires little maintaince, and I can work with it. However, since this course I will be switching to a leather holster for off duty wear (I will use kydex for other tools).
As far as the 6004 or 6280 style of holster starting to bind up. I can testify that it happens. By the end of this class my hood was starting to grind and get very stiff, thankfully it never froze or locked up, however it became very clear to me that the hood cannot be neglected and should be regularly cleaned to maintain consistency especially so in an arid environment.
Cincinnatus
10-29-2005, 16:05
I just realized that my post could be read as if I were an LEO. I'm not and never have been. I just decided that I'd rather have the retention (and frankly the comfort) of the leather holster and give up the speed of kydex. I don't really anticipate doing any real world grappling as I live in a nice area and make pretty good life style choices, just feel more comfortable w/ the additional retention.
Years ago, before taking a Farnam class John advised that we test our gear by doing a forward and a backward roll to see if anything came loose. Not a bad idea at all. I've seen a lot of folks in classes whose gear wouldn't pass that test. Of course, I've seen a few that probably couldn't do a forward and backward roll, either. :p
Any chance you gents have heard of the thumb release on a Safariland malfunctioning due to dirt/grime/rocks? It's pretty much standard issue around the team rooms in it's thigh rig version. Some of the guys, including myself, despise wearing anything on our legs and have rigged it up to fit on our chest rigs with a few zip ties. Anyway, I see a lot of space in the release mechanism where sand could get inside, but I haven't had any operational time in that environment. Anybody seeing problems in the desert with these?
Thanks for your time
The Reaper
10-29-2005, 18:54
Any chance you gents have heard of the thumb release on a Safariland malfunctioning due to dirt/grime/rocks? It's pretty much standard issue around the team rooms in it's thigh rig version. Some of the guys, including myself, despise wearing anything on our legs and have rigged it up to fit on our chest rigs with a few zip ties. Anyway, I see a lot of space in the release mechanism where sand could get inside, but I haven't had any operational time in that environment. Anybody seeing problems in the desert with these?
Thanks for your time
That was what the 6004 and 6280 comments were about.
TR
Roger that, thanks for the clarification.
Joe - thanks for the info. Quite a few guys are using these around here for off-duty/plain clothes.
I'll forward the info to our training dept, look forward to the video.
Bill Harsey
11-07-2005, 09:54
I'm not a holster maker but I have been building mechanisms on folding knives that are used in the same (equipment harsh) tactical conditons as holsters for over twenty years.
The absolute rule is to design and engineer a mechanism that won't foul and fail especially with a single grit of sand.
It's pretty irresponsible of Blackhawk, IMO.
Any word on that video, Joe?
Smokin Joe
11-12-2005, 07:02
It's pretty irresponsible of Blackhawk, IMO.
Any word on that video, Joe?
A copy was sent to a member of this board for "sterlization" I will host/post it when its ready to go.
Hmmm...
"Blackhawk Products Group is announcing a safety recall that applies to the "High Wall" versions of Blackhawk's Carbon Fiber SERPA Holsters and Blackhawk Sportster Holsters intended to fit only Glock Models 20 and 21 and the Smith & Wesson M&P in any caliber or configuration that are marked: "Glock 20/21"; "Glock 20/21 S&W M&P; or "Glock 20/21 S&W M&P .45". These holsters also have the Component Part Number C1215, C1215-L, C1215-S, or C1215-L-S molded into the bottom of the rear wall of the holster body.
As a result of a single incident, it has been determined that employing certain movements when attempting to place the Smith and Wesson M&P Pistol (in any caliber or configuration) into these "High Wall" holsters can cause the handgun to engage that "High Wall" and unexpectedly discharge if there is a round in the chamber and the trigger is in what Smith & Wesson calls "the striker fire action mode". A discharge or "firing" of the weapon in this manner could cause property damage or personal injury or death to the user and/or others."
They get a lot of goverment contracts because they can produce the numbers on time. Its not qaulity but delivery.