View Full Version : Are tribal cultures suited to democracy?
I wasn't sure where this question would go, so if mods could please move it to appropriate forum?
A letter to the Ed in the latest Times mag has gotten me thinking, and I eventually had to ask the question.
This is the original letter:
"The White House naively assumes that all countries are fertile ground for democracy. The layers of tribal fabic that make up Iraq are way too complex. Once American troops leave, the only alternative to a tribal war in Iraq would be the installation of a strongman, a surrogate for Saddam Hussein on a short leash."
I don't have any experience with what a true tribal culture is like, so was unable to judge the validity of the argument.
So, I thought I would ask people who have embedded in indigenous tribal societies everywhere in the world, and open the question up to any tribal society, not just the Iraq/Afganistan war.
In your experience, is it possible to change the way that a tribal society works/thinks to bring in democratic principles at a deep enough level that once you leave the basis of a democratic framework is there?
I don't have any experience with what a true tribal culture is like, so was unable to judge the validity of the argument.the Saudi royal family is very much a tribe...a definition from Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary "a group of persons, families or clans believed to be descended from a common ancestor..." Somalia is a tribal society, with five major clans...the Tikritis of Iraq could be classified as Saddam's tribe...the first loyalty of a tribal member is to the tribe, not the nation, not the common good, but the tribe...perhaps an example (somewhat dated) closer to home would be the Scottish clans or even the Sicilian families that made up the Mafia...an American style representative government is possible in a heterogenous society because of the diversity...in a society with fewer components, tribal or cultural differences are more noticeable...or one could argue that, at any rate...
Thanks Iksteve.
When I say no experience, I am talking about the indepth, day-to-day understanding you and others have of how a tribal society works, and more importantly how individual members within that system think and therefore will react to given circumstances. As they say, "book-larnin's no substitute for livin'".
Being raised in a "democratic" society, I don't really understand how a person who was raised in a tribal culture sees the world and their role in it. Therefore, I also don't really understand how difficult/easy it is to change that culture to a more democratic one.
My initial reaction to reading the letter was that there must be a flaw in the argument, else how do societies change/grow/adapt, but I find it interesting that the tribal cultures you mention are all ones which don't have great histories of incorporating/adapting democratic ideals into their structures. The Scots came very close to having their entire society/culture exterminated after Culloden.
aricbcool
10-19-2005, 22:49
...open the question up to any tribal society...
North America was one big tribal society before 1492... :eek:
As far as the original letter you mentioned, I don't see how their tribal tendencies are so incompatable with democracy. We have many tribes here in America (wether we like it or not). If not familial, than tribes by race, creed, religious or political belief, geographical even. It doesn't stop the system here...
I think it is a poor argument to say that a culture is too complex to adopt democracy. It insults democracy as an inflexible doctrine suited only for simple cultures/simple people. A great example of a democratic republic (which is what we're really talking about here) is the original model that the US was based on: Rome.
In a culture based on class structure, familial, and patriarchal ties, they made it work well enough to last them for 400 years or so.
Regards,
Aric
Of course it is possible to convert from tribal, to a democratic society, it's just not easy, and it will probable take a couple generations, to fully make the transition.
The same argument was put forth concerning Latin America in the fifties. VOILA!!! It does take time.
The same argument was put forth concerning Latin America in the fifties. VOILA!!! It does take time.
While the area south of Texas was moving forward it now appears to be doing a little back sliding.
If enough of the "bad guys" get elected they can change the rules to get a lock on their power. At least two of the southern countries are in that process now. Once a dictator comes to power its damn hard to vote him out.
Team Sergeant
10-20-2005, 11:55
Are tribal cultures suited to democracy?
Good question.
Some thoughts I've had on this very subject:
There are 3rd world countries, 4th world, 5th world and some that hardly rate the title of "civilized". It’s difficult to grasp something as complex a concept of freedom when, during their entire world history, these tribes or nations have never once experienced freedom.
Many nations/tribes do not collectively possess the intellectual capacity of a 9v battery. IMO they are still evolving and many westerners fail to view them in this manner. We'd rather instill our cultural views of fair-play upon them, feed them and force upon them concepts they are not ready to understand.
Democracy is not only a physical and individual concept, but a freedom to think and to imagine. To think one must have the aptitude and ability, to imagine one must have the latitude and the freedom to do so.
One must remember western cultures were still burning witches until just a few hundred years ago. Why did we stop the persecution of these witches? We got smarter. We stopped believing everything the church leaders said. We became more intelligent individually and collectively. Our tribe evolved. We would no longer stand to be fooled or blinded. We gave our tribal members the freedom to think and the latitude to imagine without fear of religious retaliation.
Enter islam.
islam very effectively removes this freedom of thought and replaces it with fear. Now mix in a few despots and BAM you’ve got the perfect mix for ideological slavery.
IMO islam is not a religion but a population control measure cloaked as a religion (don’t know what a population control measure is? Do some reading on communism.):
" All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) -- may Allah have mercy upon them -- agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt -- may Allah forbid it -- must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic (zindiq) who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed." (The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam by 'Abdurrahmani'l-Djaziri)
islam leaves no room for freedom of thought or imagination.
Without freedom of thought there is no likelihood of democracy.
This is also why this war in Iraq is so important. If we are able to break their fear of islamic retribution, if we can show them they can be free both physically and intellectually, if we can give them a taste of democracy it will light a fire that will set in motion a chain of events that will lead to the downfall of every despot tribal leader in the middle east, Africa etc.
But these despots know what democracy brings with it will not go without a fight. They will continue to exploit the islamic religion and it's laws as a means of instilling terror in their tribes thus maintaining their grip on power. They will continue to sponsor international terrorism as a means of deception and will only fight the islamic terrorists when they threaten their seat of power.
Their days are numbered. The information age is upon us. (The house of fahd is actually embracing the idea of allowing women to drive.:rolleyes: ) I'd give them about 200 more years before their tribes evolve and accept the concept of democracy. Until then good luck on keeping nuclear weapons out of their ideologically "challenged" hands………
TS
I think it is a poor argument to say that a culture is too complex to adopt democracy. It insults democracy as an inflexible doctrine suited only for simple cultures/simple people. A great example of a democratic republic (which is what we're really talking about here) is the original model that the US was based on: Rome.
I think complex is the wrong terminology. I suspect it would be more appropos to say that democracy needs certain basic building blocks to stand on, such as a relatively peaceful, relatively educated population, with a relatively safe environment, and as Iksteve says, perhaps a hetergenous population too. Rome had these, America has these, in fact, I can't think of a stable democratic government who doesn't.
So, rather than democracy only suited to simple people, I suspect the reverse is true. Democracy is only able to be implemented successfully where the people and cultures are complex.
Many nations/tribes do not collectively possess the intellectual capacity of a 9v battery. IMO they are still evolving and many westerners fail to view them in this manner. We'd rather instill our cultural views of fair-play upon them, feed them and force upon them concepts they are not ready to understand.
I agree with you, and you don't need to go overseas to see it. The Aboriginal population in Australia has such serious social problems that there is no easy solution. 200+ years after the advent of European settlement, (and admittedly a lot of mucking about with them) their culture is unsustainable. I won't go on, I know that most countries around the world with indigenous populations have the same problems.
To think one must have the aptitude and ability, to imagine one must have the latitude and the freedom to do so.
So, is education the silver bullet? The reason (in part) why we stopped burning witches, enslaving others, practicing genocide, and lots of other nasties, was that our knowledge of the world increased. The renaissance (14th to 16th century) changed how we looked at the world and ourselves, broke the back of religion in Europe, and has continued to change how we react to our environment and shape our culture.
Islam on the other hand, discourages education in all areas except Islam. So, is the solution as simple as educating every islamic child in such fundamentals as critical thinking, basic human rights, the world outside their borders, etc?
longrange1947
10-20-2005, 20:28
Within tribal culture the emphasis and loyalty is to the tribe/family. The concept of "country" is not on the main burner. Without this concept of country, then democracy is very hard to push, as it means the trible getting something by giving up something to another tribe in exchange.
While we joke about "My country Right or Wrong", in a tribal society they are serious about "My tribe/family, right or wrong." They will protect to the fullest someone or thing if it belongs to the tribe. They will not allow "outsiders to interfer" and they sure as hell will not turn in or turn over that, that belongs to the tribe.
These ideas and beliefs run counter to democracy as deversity requires compromise and trust of "outsiders" for justice. Can the middle east accomplish this, yes. Will it take time, yes. As was already mentioned, Latin America is very much family oriented and village, family by extension, oriented. One of the problems in the 70s and 80s was their concept of country was their fields and pastures. The city was foriegn and was not to be trusted, that is where the corrupt ones lived. It took, as has been mentioned before in this thread, education.
Islam is where Catholisim was 500 to 700 years ago. Remember back then they thought in terms of villages and family. They held several Inquisitions to route out "non believers" and to punish them.
It took a bold experiment in a new land to begin the genisis of democracy and we still screw it up. We had scandals, and various perversions of democracy over the years to include a civil war. Arguements over what the orginal documents mean and all sorts of buffonary. My guess is that in another several hundred years we may get it right. To expect a country that is just now feeling the effects of freedom to get it right this soon is plain and simple jackassery.
Of course that descibes the librals and their press agents quite nicely thank you. :munchin
In honor of that insight, I shall just have to add my Kukri to Catholic School Girl halloween outfit.
FrontSight
Now there's a sight. For ceremonial or sacrificial purposes?
longrange1947
10-22-2005, 10:24
Wow longrange, that provides quite the perspective!
Makes me cast all those masses I've been to in terms of what they would have been like...
In honor of that insight, I shall just have to add my Kukri to Catholic School Girl halloween outfit.
FrontSight
Sorry if that offended, but I recommend that you read the history of the church. Look at the Inquisition and the beliefs back in those days. It was death if you were Jewish, or anyother "heretic" religion. All of the christian religions were fanatical back then as well as the Hindu and Buddist religions. Killing in the name of "insert the name of your diety here" was very common place. If you were not "what ever" then you were a non-believer to be villified and demonized.
Not saying that the Catholic Church is the same today, but do not hide from the fact that it was that way before. The Catholic Church has changed and evolved. Heck, long ago priests married and had children, one of the Popes was married.
To stay the same is to stagnate and deny progress. That is one of the biggest problems in Islam today, the resistance to progress and change. As as been pointed out, that would mean the lose of power to some and the increase of power to the powerless now. Much the same as the Cardinals of several eras ago.
I can not change history, nor will I hide from history.
longrange1947
10-22-2005, 14:56
Then I apologize for misreading your post. I misinterrputed your meaning and posted in response to my own misunderstanding of what your were saying.
BIG hug! :D
In honor of that insight, I shall just have to add my Kukri to Catholic School Girl halloween outfit.
FrontSight
Pictures!!!!
longrange1947
10-24-2005, 14:57
Pictures!!!!
Second AND Third that! :D
This reminds me of a discussion NDD started a while back:
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1248&highlight=state
Is a tribe a security community?
Is the term "Tribe/Tribal" perhaps a Freudian slip indicating we really mean savages.:D :D