Co-witnessing iron sights with a dot sight.

[BadMuther]

I wanted to hear some opinions on this.

Right now I'm running an trijicon reflex on a flat-top AR. Works pretty good for me. I do need to get some sort of backup sight.

My next AR rifle will be a flattop Ar with a flip-up front site/FU rear. One of my friends has a regular AR with a trijicon reflex site mounted on a carry handle mount that goes over the front handguards. Co-witnesses perfectly. I hate it.

I feel as if co witnessing the iron sites detracts from the speed of using a dot site and unnecessarily complicates the aiming process.

From reading some of the other threads in this section, some folks are for co-witnessing.

Let's hear the pro's and cons.

[Psywar1-0]

Its all in how you Co-Witness. If I look thru my Irons, I see the red dot sitting just on top of my front sight. BUT, I do not have to get down nose to charging handle to see the red dot and engage targets.

[BadMuther]

Right, I see what you are saying.

Looking at a pic of your rifle, it looks like the dot site is probably on a similiar plane as mine.


My friend's AR has the kind of mount shown below.


On his, you have to get nose to charging handle to see out of the dot sight and/or the regular site.

With the regular way you use your aimpoint, is the rear iron site in your site picture at all?

[Psywar1-0]

WM,

On my "Modern" gun, I never see the rear sight unless I want to.


I have a similar set up as yours on my 90's retro Car-15. The particular mount Im using blocks you from even using the Irons.


Do you know Chen Lee? He has all kinds of goodies, and is in Kali. Yes I know Kali is almost as long as the entire east coast, but he might be able to provide you with a hands on, that will be much clearer than trying to talk about this over the net :-)

[BadMuther]

Nope, don't know him.


Hey, do you know that guy in the army, that guy that wears BDU's? ;)

My AR is an ar15a3 flattop. I'll have to take a pic and post it soon.

[militarymoron]

hey woob, how's it going, dude?
when it comes to co-witnessing irons and a dot/reflex sight, by definition if you can look thru the sight with your irons, they'll be co-witnessed already. i.e. if you line up your irons, the dot WILL be centered on top of the front sight post.

now, if you move your head away from the irons, the dot will no longer be co-witnessed, but it'll still be on target (since it's parallex free - which means the dot does not have to be centered in the tube).

being a civvie, and not being in fear of being attacked by cardboard sillouettes, i preferred a clear sight picture thru my aimpoint or eotech so i had flip up front and rear sights, which i kept down when shooting 'normally'. i disliked the irons cluttering my my field of view. but then i also started shooting with them up, with and without the sights turned on, to get used to them also, and i found that the sights 'disappeared' as i concentrated on the dot.
flipping sights up and own is a luxury that you might not have as a 'real world' user (which i most readily admit i'm not) and is probably not the best way to go.

woob, i think your buddy's reflex on the carry-handle mount is centered on the irons. combined with the relatively small reflex lens way out front, i can see how it'd be a bit distracting.
IMHO, the way to go would be to have fixed front and fixed rear sight (like a LMT or cut carry handle). mount the sight (eotech or aimpoint) so that the irons co-witness in the bottom third of the tube/window (instead of centered in height). when the sight is on, you're looking over the irons, and using the dot. if the sight goes bust, you just lower your eyes a half inch and use the irons. no flipping sights up or down. just my .02.
BTW, i know that guy in the Army with the BDUs. and chen, too.
cheers,
MM

[BadMuther]

Hey MM,

Thanks for the input.

I can still only tolerate a fixed front site when using my reflex.

I agree that BUIS are a must on any rifle with a dot site. I guess I'm just looking for some insight from someone who uses their front and rear sites with a dot site as to why this is a better setup up to go with vs. flip up sites. Sorry I didn't make that point clearer before.

Here's my 2 AR's....

[BadMuther]

A close up on my primary....Colt ar15a3.....

The tape on the lower receiver is to keep the pins from "walking" out.....

[capcrimper]

Well.

Here is my nickels worth.

Using Iron Sights as a back up is not an option, its a must.

What if batteries fail? etc etc etc.

I always align both iron sights and use my AIMPOINT at the same time.

TWO IS ONE and ONE IS NONE.

Besides, using both ath the same time ensures a fundamental rule of shooting happens....

PROPER CHEEK WELD.

The AIMPOINT is a cheaters way of becoming a good shooter. USe both, make it muscle memory. Do it smoothly, and speed will come.

Cheek weld is crucial, besides its VERY easy to throw rounds from poor trigger control when you do not have a proper stance and cheek weld, and when you have those, you will have your Iron sights already lined up.

The key is to get something like the LMT rear sight , that allows you to shoot both AIMPOINT and iron at the same time.
you would be surprised how many guys leave their backups down.

How many seconds would it cost you to flip it up and re aquire the target????


Again, just my opinion....

[BadMuther]

Cap crimper,

Thanks for your input. I agree that backup sites are a must. (I just haven't got the cash for some right now!)

My reflex equipped Ar is setup for CQB ranges. At this distance I personally feel that a nose to the charging handle cheek weld with a dot site detracts from the dot site's speed in close range situations, while negligibly adding to accuracy.

If I'm shooting out past CQB distances, then I'll take the extra time to do a nose to the charging handle cheek weld.

In experimenting with shooting at CQB ranges with your head slightly up, I see no loss of accuracy but I do experience an increase of speed using this manner.

It's similiar to the "quick kill" method of just sighting using your front sight post that I was taught in Batt.

Again, thank you for your input.

[capcrimper]

Whiskey Mike,

I appreciate your situation. Money... Aint it a bitch?

I personaly loathe the reflex sight. but thats another subject.


Be sure you spend money on the important stuff.

AMMUNITION!

Dry fire.

Do realistic training.

Use good ammo

And remember you have NO idea how fast you are without a shot clock. You will feel faster/slower depending on your mood, whether you like the techniique, or any other incidental thing.....

Use a clock.

[BadMuther]

CC,

Thanks for the info.

I'll have to actually try clocking myself sometime.

Anyone out there clock themselves at CQB distances on the difference between Iron sights and dot sights?

[Smokin Joe]

BadMuther does this answer you question?

[Smokin Joe]

Uno mas

[The Reaper]

That is one BIG charging handle latch!

Have you tried the Badger Tac-Latch or PRI Big Latch?

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Yup it sure is. :D

I have not tried either...come to think of it I don't think I have seen the PRI one. I got it b/c I'm a lefty. Do the PRI or Badger accomdate right hand manipulation?

[BadMuther]

Smokin Joe-

Thanks for the pics...anyway to get a pic with the rear site folded out of the way?

[Smokin Joe]

Yup, My bad I meant to post this last night instead of one of the other ones

[BadMuther]

Thanks Joe, nice setup! I like it much better with the rear site down.

Who makes the rear site? And what dot site is that?

Jim

[Smokin Joe]

Thank you,

Rear sight is a GG&G M.A.D. (Multi-Apature Device)

Sight is an Aimpoint M2 from Wes at MSTN.

I also prefer it with the rear down.

It is extremely quick to acquire. I'm not a point-target or CQB expert by any way shape or form, but I shoot from time to time, and that sight is so damn fast I need to train myself to hurry up. I think I could probably shave atleast .5 of a sec off my engagement time once I get used to it.

I need to move as fast as the sight is acquiring, which is alot faster than what I am used to.

[BadMuther]

That's how I feel too....it's quick and accurate as hell......