View Full Version : M-14/M1A
Dustin03
10-04-2005, 17:08
I've suddenly gained an interest in buying this weapon, but have no experience with them, nor do I know anybody that has. All I have is what i've read on a few pages.
What are your thoughts/comments? I'm looking for a traditional looking one, maybe even used, because the prices I'm seeing for new ones on the net are outta my range for now.
Thanks
Spartan359
10-04-2005, 17:53
I've suddenly gained an interest in buying this weapon, but have no experience with them, nor do I know anybody that has. All I have is what i've read on a few pages.
What are your thoughts/comments? I'm looking for a traditional looking one, maybe even used, because the prices I'm seeing for new ones on the net are outta my range for now.
Thanks
I own one and I love it to death. Easy to disassemble and clean. Few moving parts. Make sure if you do buy it that you get the plastic coverings for the iron sights so they don't get dinged. Ammo is easy to come by. Now if you want to get a synthetic stock the cost is cheaper. That's what I opted for since I'm a cheap bastard and didn't want to pay an extra grand for Walnut stock. You can always buy it later. That nail driver is well worth the money. Mags vary from dealer to dealer. $20-$40. Go to Springfields website and check around.
longrange1947
10-04-2005, 18:33
What type of shooting do you want to do with it?
Dustin03
10-05-2005, 10:00
i've thought about doing some hunting with it, but it would be mostly used as a collectable.
miller0331
10-05-2005, 13:20
I own a couple different variations of the M1A/M14 and love them to death. I have a National Match, the Scout rifle, and a rack grade.
I have hunted most big game in Alaska with my rack grade (though I don't recommend brown bear hunting with such a light round.) and have used the NM for varmint hunting on occasion. I've carried it in the worst conditions and terrain that AK has to offer and have never had a weapon malfunction (just ammo and that was crappy Greek 7.62 I bought at a gun show for cheap) . My scout I've run through the ringer doing tactical shoots and never had a complaint one about it.
They point nice, recoil is neglible (for follow up shots), shoots about any kind of ammo, easy to disassemble/maintain, accurate as hell, and there a tons of parts out there for them.
I own a couple other semi-auto 7.62s (HK91, FALs, CETME) but I always reach for that M1A when it comes to doing actual work. Plus, put a bayonet on that and you have damn fine spear that shoots!! :D
Watch buying any surplus M1s. I bought a WWII vintage low serial number M1 that was "shot out". It is a fine collectors item but not a shooter.
I was lucky to inherit a National Match M14. Went thru AMTU Sniper School with the N.M M14 in 1984 when it was at Fort Bragg. No argument it is a great rifle. For nostalgia purposes I love it. I only own a few guns and the M14 is always the one I show or talk about. But if you’re looking for a long range accurate gas rifle for general purpose use (Hunting, Recreational Target Shooting or Competition) there are better 308 gas guns out there, but for a bigger price. After mounting a Scope and tripod the M14 is hard to resist for its looks, performance and Sniper history.
Gene Econ
10-05-2005, 21:13
i've thought about doing some hunting with it, but it would be mostly used as a collectable.
Dustin:
Hunting and a collectable? Go for it. Competitive High Power -- I would advise against one as they aren't competitive anymore unless you are shooting service rifle at 1000 yards and even then, they are marginally better than the ARs being used today.
There are better gas guns these days but I will say that the 14 is pretty durable. I think you will have a great time with one for the purposes you stated. Watch it if you hand load for one though. That can be a bit tricky.
Gene
Watch buying any surplus M1s. I bought a WWII vintage low serial number M1 that was "shot out". It is a fine collectors item but not a shooter.
M-14/M1A's are sweet, so are M-1 Garands. I almost like the Garand more even though it uses an 8 round "clip" instead of a magazine. The two weapons are closely related. I like the 30.06 better than .308 too, even though the two are close ballistically.
Surplus Garands can have lots of variation, it's not uncommon to find Garands with salt-water damage from Normandy. Throat erosion is a general indicator of wear, but not a complete indicator of accuracy. Most sellers will list the "TE" when selling.
I like forged military recievers (not castings). Avoid "rewelds" at all costs. And to echo what Gene said, NO HANDLOADS!!! I've seen forged GI recievers turn into chunks of shrapnel with hot handloads.
M-14/M1A's are sweet, so are M-1 Garands. I almost like the Garand more even though it uses an 8 round "clip" instead of a magazine. The two weapons are closely related. I like the 30.06 better than .308 too, even though the two are close ballistically.
Surplus Garands can have lots of variation, it's not uncommon to find Garands with salt-water damage from Normandy. Throat erosion is a general indicator of wear, but not a complete indicator of accuracy. Most sellers will list the "TE" when selling.
I like forged military recievers (not castings). Avoid "rewelds" at all costs. And to echo what Gene said, NO HANDLOADS!!! I've seen forged GI recievers turn into chunks of shrapnel with hot handloads.
If you go the used route, drop the money on a headspace gauge.
I really like the M14/M1A1, Great rifle. When it came out, I thought, the best of both worlds the BAR mated to the Garand.
Cons, for a walking man, is weight. It weighs more and so does the ammo, which limits the amount of ammo carried. On Full auto it walks real bad, two rd bursts is prefered. I have owned a few and still own one. It is a excellent addition to any collection and a very fine weapon.
I'm Going out on a limb here but I have "some" time behind Both M14's and M1A's. My personal opinion is that my British SLR beats them both. The NM M1A has the edge on accuracy and I cannot compete with that. I have also had the opportunity to shoot an M-14 and a West German G1 (both select fire) and the FAL was a little more controllable than the 14, especially from the prone position on a sand bag. THe 14 bounced everywhere whereas the FAL kept pretty much aimed in the same direction.
longrange1947
10-07-2005, 06:13
to echo somewhat what Gene stated on handloads, do not shoot heavier than 168 gr in the M14/M1A combo. It causes heavier than normal wear and I have seen two seperate M1As with broken trigger pins and a blown extractor from shooting 175 gr. I know, we fired 173 gr in the M14/M21s whe we fired M118NM/SB. However that ammo was loaded light and vel was 2550.
The original 175 gr M118LR was past 2600 and was punishing to the weapon. A former instructor on SOTIC went to a match with his M1A and a load of original M118LR. He really wanted to see how they would do. Came back and gave me his rifle to fix. Blown extractor and broken trigger/sear pin.
Use the heavier bullets at your peril. With that said the M14 is a fine weapon for plinking/hunting but too fragile and finicky for serious competition. Even the Army team, when they used the M14NM weapons had armorers standing by to fix those suckers. :munchin
LR 1947, Thank you for filling in the blanks on Reloading No Nos on the M14/M1A1.
I have shoot some South African MG ammo out of another person's M1A1 with pretty good accuracy. We're hitting a 2 ft by 3 ft target at 1,000 M with iron sights.
I tend to pick my reloading data for low CPUs, and accuracy.
Spartan359
10-07-2005, 20:40
We're hitting a 2 ft by 3 ft target at 1,000 M with iron sights.
Dude you got me salivating. :D I wish there was that much open land here in Florida. I would LOVE to open up my iron sights at that range.
A mate of mine owns a Mini14. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I like the way it fits to my short arms :D
longrange1947
10-07-2005, 21:18
A mate of mine owns a Mini14. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I like the way it fits to my short arms :D
May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.
I may be stepping on toes but that is life. :munchin
The Reaper
10-07-2005, 21:23
May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.
I may be stepping on toes but that is life. :munchin
Accuracy, durability, availability of spare parts and mags, etc., etc.
I have a Mini-14 as well, and it is no M-14, or even an M-4.
Concur completely with LR.
TR
Ambush Master
10-07-2005, 21:32
May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.
I may be stepping on toes but that is life. :munchin
If you own a Title II Mini, be very cautious about sending it back to Ruger !! They do not believe that "private citizens" should be allowed to own Class 3 weapons .
As far as a .308 goes, I'll stand with my FN LAR !! This puppy hits what I shoot at, and I've made MANY open sight hits way out there !!
Later
Martin
Oh I'm not surprised at all that it's a better weapon. I've only held an empty stock for an M14 so I couldn't compare the two.
As far as a .308 goes, I'll stand with my FN LAR !! This puppy hits what I shoot at, and I've made MANY open sight hits way out there !!
Later
Martin
An FAL variant is on the top of my list of to get firearms after I've got my licence. They served NZ well for so many years, I'd like to own a piece of history like that.
longrange1947
10-07-2005, 22:11
If you own a Title II Mini, be very cautious about sending it back to Ruger !! They do not believe that "private citizens" should be allowed to own Class 3 weapons .
Later
Martin
And that is one of its biggest problems. It is made by Ruger. :eek: :D
Since we're on a Ruger roll here, Bill Ruger has worked with legislators in helping to pass assault-rifle bans to save his own company's product's. What a f*king loser.
As a former Ruger owner (several models), I've sold them all except for a MK II bull bbl .22 pistol I let an ex-girlfriend "borrow."
I didn't really like her that much so I figured that since MK II's are such a pain in the ass to re-assemble, it would be the perfect gun for her. That's been years now, and I still don't miss any of my Ruger's. :D
Gene Econ
10-08-2005, 21:22
to echo somewhat what Gene stated on handloads, do not shoot heavier than 168 gr in the M14/M1A combo. It causes heavier than normal wear and I have seen two seperate M1As with broken trigger pins and a blown extractor from shooting 175 gr.
Rick:
My experience indicates that it wasn't the ammo but rather something much simpler. The trigger pins and extractor were worn out and finally broke. I replaced an extractor from a AMU Super Match M-14 two years ago while orienting some Infantry snipers to the M-14. I originally got these super match M-14s out of the AMU for 1st SFG some ten years ago and they got abused once I retired. We broke an extractor on the first round fired of issued M-80 ball. It simply gave up the ghost and should have been replaced many years previously.
I won't get started on the problems with M-14s. Anyone who thinks they are the cure all in terms of durability fails to realize that things wear out. Parts of M-14s and Garands wear out faster than parts on M-16s despite those who claim otherwise.
I have no idea where to start with service grade M-14s but I do know a solution that I advise. When one blows out a barrel after five thousand rounds or so, replace the barrel and the following: Every part in the bolt. The oprod, oprod guide, and oprod spring. Replace every part in the trigger housing and take a good look at the gas tube, gas piston, and gas plug. I would advise anyone to take the worn out barreled M-14 to a very competent M-14 guru, hand him one thousand dollars, and tell him to make you a NRA High Power Service Rifle that will shoot match ammo to one minute of angle. If he claims it will shoot consistently and reliably to less than a minute -- I advise going to someone who tells the truth instead. The guy who tells the truth will take about a thousand dollars and made one an M-14 that will shoot a minute consistently with one load but I guarantee you that the rifle will not fail between barrel changes (rebuilding / 5K rounds).
When I shot the M-14, I went to such a M-14 guru once a year and handed him eight hundred dollars to rebuild the rifle. He not only replaced the barrel but changed every single part that could be changed to ensure the rifle would not fail for five thousand more rounds provided I cleaned it after a match. I went to this particular M-14 guru while here in Washington for the last five years I shot the M-14 in competition. The rifle did not fail one single time over those five years and I would put an average of six thousand rounds a season through it. Loads were from 150 to 185 grain. The 175 was not on the market at that time.
I doubt anyone puts a rifle through the abuse a competitive shooter does in terms of rounds fired between major overhauls. I still have that M-14 and it is made to take abuse that no service grade M-14 could take in terms of mean rounds between a failure. It probably could take heavier loads better than a rack grade due to how its gas system was made, double lugging, and a complete change of parts every single year -- needed or not.
Despite the durability of this particular rifle due to preventative maintenance and having it made by a very good M-14 guy, I never loaded it to any maximum in any loading manual and I followed a very strict set of my own loading rules when I did load for it. Thats why I advise guys to simply use commercial ammo for them. It is no secret in terms of loading for them but it does require a lot of self discipline and some careful selection of components and process. All for a rifle that rarely shoots better than a minute no matter who makes the thing.
My advice to guys starting with a rack grade M-14 is to note carefully the roll pins and parts that break, and the various failures to do things when they break. When the barrel is shot out, they will have quite a list and thus will know what they want done when the barrel is replaced. Once a guy has shot out a service grade barrel, he probably knows enough about the M-14 to know what he wants done and how to load for one without blowing it up.
The M-14 is a decent rifle but by no means is it any more reliable than anything else of its era.
Gene
longrange1947
10-09-2005, 10:14
Gene, the weapon I was refering to, owned by a former instructor, was a brand new, less than 500 rounds, M1A. The other weapon was a just rebuilt M14NM. Both weapons broke that exact same manner with the first run 175gr ammo.
When I shot the M14NM on a regular basis, the general consensus was to not shoot hotter than the M118NM ammo, 173 gr at 2550, due to heavy recoil pressures. We messed with the 180 gr when they first came out but was not pleased with them.
I agree that if you change out your barrel you need to do a rebuild as the weapon is pretty well shot up. The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.
That said, the question, as I understood it, was the guy was going to do plinking and use it as a "collectable", and not comp shooting. IF, it is only plinking then I would not bother with that kind of money.
You shot 185s for 1000 yds? Why not the 155gr? :munchin
Spartan359
10-09-2005, 11:39
Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:
1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?
Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.
The Reaper
10-09-2005, 11:51
Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:
1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?
Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.
I do not think that you understand what a reload is.
1. Malfunctions, followed by parts falling apart.
2. Bore obstruction, or very hot loads.
3. If you do not have a bedded action, then you do not have to worry about it. It sounds as if you do not.
TR
longrange1947
10-09-2005, 15:05
Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:
1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?
Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.
First of all is it a rack grade weapon, shich I am inclined to believe.
IF it is rack grade then youa re not gettign the best accuracy form it anyway and 10,000 rounds down the tube would indicate that you have probably burned out the barrel about 2000 to 5000 rounds ago depending on the ammo fired. The big question is are you happy with how it shoots? If after all those rounds youa re happy with the way it shoots youcould cojntinue to failure which should be shortly at the rate you fire ammo.
1. Misfeeds, failure to extract, failure to fire, shots hitting next target over, pins failing in the trigger, extrqactor coming loose during firing, operating rod jamming in the figure 8 rod guide due to misalignement, and those are only some the of the fun things, I am sure that Gene can add more.
2. Do you mean barrel blow out or burn out. For a barrel to blow on an M14 would require either gross negligence or ignorance on the level of "you should not be shooting". TR covered the main reasons for that with barrel obstruction being the primary, with hand loads being the second but in 308 it would require using something like pistol powder in a compressed load. You would proaby get a bolt failure and a face full of pwder before you got a barrel to blow.
Now a burned out barrel, which is what you probably already have, is due to nothing more than shooting your weapon. The hotter the round and heavier the bullet the faster the burn out. It begins with benign throat erosion and then you stqrt loosing lands and grooves further and further up the barrel. You can live with some but the further it goes the further the bullet travels before engaging in the lands and grooves. This decreases accuracy and groups open up as the erosion becomes more pronounced.
3. Bedding is done to National Match weapons to stop any shifting of the action in the stock. If you have a rack grade then you do not have a bedded stock and the weapon's stock probably has crushed wood fibers from the recoil and thus the weapon is already loose in the stock. Since it sets cattywhompous, love those big words, makes me feel smarter, alreardy I would say you are not bedded.
My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too. :munchin
NousDefionsDoc
10-09-2005, 17:27
My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too.
Exchange rate in this case, by my calculations, is about:
1 million USD to the cent.
Gene Econ
10-09-2005, 20:17
Gene, the weapon I was refering to, owned by a former instructor, was a brand new, less than 500 rounds, M1A. The other weapon was a just rebuilt M14NM. Both weapons broke that exact same manner with the first run 175gr ammo.
When I shot the M14NM on a regular basis, the general consensus was to not shoot hotter than the M118NM ammo, 173 gr at 2550, due to heavy recoil pressures. We messed with the 180 gr when they first came out but was not pleased with them.
I agree that if you change out your barrel you need to do a rebuild as the weapon is pretty well shot up. The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.
That said, the question, as I understood it, was the guy was going to do plinking and use it as a "collectable", and not comp shooting. IF, it is only plinking then I would not bother with that kind of money.
You shot 185s for 1000 yds? Why not the 155gr? :munchin
Rick:
I don't have a clue what caused the problems with the issued 118LR. I doubt it was velocity though. Instead I bet is due to the gas system that is causing some severe stress on parts. Recoil and gas pressures can be controlled in a 14 via work done on the gas piston and plug. Mine has had some work done on the gas piston itself and the gas plug is vented. Not sure if the recoil spring may be heavier or not though. I didn't make it -- only shot it. I do know that the work done on my gas piston and plug reduces recoil while maintaining proper function so I figure the reduced recoil has something to do with its ability to take more of a beating without parts breaking.
The older 'White Box' 118 Match stated 2550 fps but that was based on the issued M-21 or NM 14. My experience is that the currently issued M-24 will get about fifty FPS more than a gas gun. Thats why the M-118 SB and LR state 2600 fps. Because they are checked based on a bolt rifle and not a gas gun. I have some of this 1970s era White Box 118 Match and will chronograph it when we shoot some 24s in a couple of weeks and see what it reads.
At 600 I generally shot 185s that I make and at 1000 I shot either 118 SB or some of my 185s with hand loads. I tried some 155s but found that the issued M-852 Match ammo shot the best of anything through any one of the iterations of M-14 that I had so I stuck with that ammo for 200 and 300. To date I haven't found a better .308 cartridge for 300 yards than that damn M-852 or its commercial equivalents. We never thought of shooting 155s out of an M-14 at 1000 for three reasons. First was prejudice against light bullets. Second, I doubt anyone could get the velocity needed to maintain supersonic speeds at 1000 from a M-14 with anything less than a 173. I do know that I would not even try to get 2950 fps out of my M-14 with a 155. That is way past any envelope I want to push with a .308 gas gun. Third, we were prejudiced in favor of 10 turn twists. Too fast for the lighter bullet for that range.
As the years went by and the 14 disappeared from the firing line due to heavy recoil, less efficient ammunition and cost, we toyed with the idea of having someone make up some 1/13 twist Palma chambered and bored barrels for some M-14s to shoot issued M-80 and the 155s to 600. At 1000 we would still need a twelve or ten turn barrel with bullets of 173 - 190 grains though so this means needing two rifles. I never pursued it because my two brain cells struck together ten years ago and I went to a Match Rifle.
I know the gentleman in question will use his rack grade stick for enjoyment and to treasure. However I also know shooters pretty well and once they see how well something does without tinkering -- they tend to tinker to make it better. So I figure we can at least give him the benefit of our experiences so he can take a better path than we sometimes did.
Gene
Gene Econ
10-09-2005, 20:44
1. Misfeeds, failure to extract, failure to fire, shots hitting next target over, pins failing in the trigger, extrqactor coming loose during firing, operating rod jamming in the figure 8 rod guide due to misalignement, and those are only some the of the fun things, My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too. :munchin
Ten thousand rounds and the thing hasn't broken or run full auto due to a peened forward firing pin yet? Lord Have Mercy.
If it was bedded -- it ain't anymore. Rick is probably correct in stating that this rifle has been shot so much that the torque from the receiver has mashed the wood -- thus creating the 'canted upper receiver' effect. I haven't seen this happen though.
Short cycling on a 14 can be due to a number of things. Rack grade 14s break the roll pin securing the oprod guide to the barrel -- thus jamming the oprod to degrees. Failure to clean out the gas piston and plug is another cause. Failure to ensure the gas plug locking nut is tightened to the barrel then unturned until the gas plug can be screwed in. Loose gas plug is another cause. At times guys will inadvertently turn the gas cut off to close and thus no gas gets into the gas piston. I have seen 14s lose the gas cut off locking pin and lose the gas cut off itself -- causing short cycles or no cycles. Hmmm, let me think here. Bent oprod and weak oprod spring are two more, particularly after ten thousand rounds of 'any ammo'. Oh yes, loose gas tube assembly is another one.
Ten thousand rounds? Barrel is gone. Indicators of a shot out barrel? Poor accuracy. This isn't rocket science here. I bet you are getting good velocity though as you are probably missing about four inches of rifling. Soon you will have a paradox barrel.
My advice to Spartan is to have the entire rifle totally rebuilt. I mean every single thing and probably a new bolt as well.
Gene
longrange1947
10-09-2005, 21:22
Sorry Gene, I was kidding about the 155gr. It being a light Palma round and not suitable for the gas gun. As you stated, the required MV would tear up a 14 and the barrel twist is not conducive to stabilized bullets. I believe they be a mite over stabilized with the 10 twist.
I always shot the M852 for cross the course shooting when they dropped the M118NM. The 168 gr was originally made for the 300 meter international course of fire but did well at cross course as well.
We chronoed LR out of all of our M24s for the Palm and Pocket PC Balistic programs. All of our guns chronoed around 2575 to 2590. The folks at quality control say they test chrono at 1560 at 11 (or was it 15) meters from the muzzle. Our chrono was at normal distance. I have sitting on my book case two boxes of M72 30.06 National Match, One box of XM118, Two boxes of M118 Match, two boxes of M118 Special Ball, two boxes of M852, and finally two boxes of M118 Long Range. All the mil ammo that I have messed with over my "short" career of playing this silly game.
Yes folks, 30.06 for the Springfield and the M1C/D, though the D is more prevailent and I would have loved to got a hold of M1 Marine Sniper version. Better than the M1C, atleast that is what some old Jarhead said. :D
Dustin03
10-09-2005, 21:42
wow, i have learned a lot from this thread. the good news is i found one with a synthetic stock for $800. Gonna check more into it later. the bad news is...i met a woman so my money is being redistributed....... :rolleyes:
longrange1947
10-10-2005, 11:52
wow, i have learned a lot from this thread. the good news is i found one with a synthetic stock for $800. Gonna check more into it later. the bad news is...i met a woman so my money is being redistributed....... :rolleyes:
Look at the synthetic stock closly. It suffers form crushed fiberglass fibers similar tot he wooden stocks. While they are much more durable, they have accuracy problems as well. While I will not say they can't be bedded, they would be a pain to do so, IMHO.
When firing, be aware that the "over the shoulder hinge" on the butt plate is not for normal shooting and it was there only for full auto fire. Since I doubt that youwill be doing full auto, leave it in the closed position. The raised psoition misplaces it on the shoulder and is not needed under normal circumstances.
Hmmmmmm, redistributing money already? Is this the old bait and switch to get her on board or done with loving care? :munchin :D
Dustin03
10-10-2005, 12:40
well, a little of both, but I just met her. Infact me and my buddy where shooting yesterday when she called and asked if she could show up and try shooting handguns because she wanted to learn how.....i think i'm in love :D
The Reaper
10-10-2005, 12:58
well, a little of both, but I just met her. Infact me and my buddy where shooting yesterday when she called and asked if she could show up and try shooting handguns because she wanted to learn how.....i think i'm in love :D
They all do that during the dating/engagement phase.
Unfortunately, you do not find out which ones who will keep doing that till they hook you, and then it is too late.
Look on the base bulletin boards to see firearms collections being sold off to finance divorces.
TR
longrange1947
10-10-2005, 13:59
Look on the base bulletin boards to see firearms collections being sold off to finance divorces.
TR
Now there is a dose of cold salts. :eek:
The Reaper
10-10-2005, 14:09
Now there is a dose of cold salts. :eek:
The lad used the four letter "L word".
Just trying to bring a bit of reality to the discussion.
He hands your average chick an M-1A with a 20 round mag and has her empty the thing, she is probably going to be bruised, and pissed.
If she isn't, shoots well, and appears to enjoy it, now that is either a keeper or a sufficiently excellent actress that you might consider keeping her around for a while.
Don't want to let his hormones cause him to fall for the first lass that lets him teach her to shoot. There are babes in the Fayetteville area who probably have more trigger time being "taught to shoot" than some of the kids in the 82nd.
Food for thought.
TR
longrange1947
10-10-2005, 14:22
Of course there is always the other four letter word that starts with an L.
OF course that is the one that gets lads in trouble. :D
Now me, I have kept the same lovbely young lady for 35 years (plus some change) now so what do I know. :lifter
Gene and Long range,
My department picked up two M-14's with the selector knob removed and pined. Both have plastic stocks instead of any wood. They are trying to turn them into Spotter's rifles. They are having immense troubles with every scope they mount to them. They complain that they will not consistently hold zero. I would show them this thread but my "friends" would probably end up saying: "So who are these guys again and what makes them so smart." They are using I 'believe" ARMS mounts and ATN's scopes (why I do not know). They are pushing 168's through them as that is what the state buys and we can go with them and get a major discount. I believe they are Winchesters. They were shooting a heavier grain that somebody mentioned above but not anymore. They are determined to put these rifles in service without spending any money on the 14 itself, just the scope, and mount. Should I let them in on some hints that I have learned here from professionals? I still have to keep reminding myself however, our "armorer" is only 32 years old and cannot handle being told he might be wrong or looking at the wrong item. He says it is not the 14's themselves also.
What would you guys do?
longrange1947
10-13-2005, 16:41
I would let them in on some of this stuff. They will be in serious trouble is they attempt to shoot those weapons near non hostiles and hit an innocent.
As far as the ARMs mounts, they have bought a mount with a history of not holding a zero. I would would look to other mounts such as the Smith Enterprise mount for the M14.
For a scope I would recommend a Leupold as a minimum, M3LR or if they insist on stupid, the M1. There are better scopes out there but they can get very expensive.
Have fun with the folk and check the receiver. If it is a TRW reciever then the receiver is probably milled bad for a barrel to reciever fit.
If they want to know why I know so much about that weapon, tell them that I used that weapon as a sniper for a "couple of years". :D
Now me, I have kept the same lovbely young lady for 35 years (plus some change) now so what do I know. :lifter
LR, excellent statement. I think that says more about the quality of person than any other words. (obviously there are exceptions). I am too very fortuante, 27 Years.
BTW, I would also like to say "thank you" to Gene and you, really enjoyed reading your posts.
Hollis
BTW, This is my son's first hunting season.
BTW, This is my son's first hunting season.
Forgive the hijack, but this statement reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day. There's much ballyhoo over 'stopping power' and 'one shot kills' coming out of theater, and besides the Hollywierd influcence, I think another big reason is a significant lack of hunting experience in today's youth. Anyone that's hunted big game knows that even the 'one shot' larger hunting calibers (i.e. .308, 30-06, 7mm, etc) rarely put the animal down immediately. You can get a good sidelong shot that perforates both lungs, shreds the heart and fractures the shoulders, and you'll still follow a 50m bloodtrail to find the body before the animal bleeds out and stops. A buddy went antelope hunting last week with his .308, got a lucky frontal shot that hit low on her chest, split the sternum, lacerated the heart and just about field dressed her on the spot, and she still ran/jumped 25m before coming to a stop. Folks that don't hunt just don't understand the power of the will to live despite mortal wounds, I think.
Gene Econ
10-13-2005, 20:56
They are having immense troubles with every scope they mount to them. They complain that they will not consistently hold zero.
What would you guys do?
Mr. MAB:
Don't tell us -- a M-14 scope mount that won't hold zero? Imagine that! He, he, he.
I had the opportunity to work with some fellows who had six or eight Super Match M-14s made into what Rick and I know as the 'M-25'. These rifles were used in combat recently. I believe they used the ARMS mounts Rick mentioned and the rifles were made very well by an exceptional armorer I know. The mounts were lock tited into place and within about a hundred rounds of M-118 LR and M-80 ball, every single one had loosened up and lost zero. It was almost impossible to do a thing aside from welding the mount onto the receiver to have confidence that the mount wouldn't come loose. That is the nature of mounts and M-14s from my experience.
BTW -- I recall one of these rifles that would not hold worth a damn with either M-118 or M-852 but would shoot M-80 ball like it was the best match grade ammo you could get. No reason known to man why that particular 14 didn't shoot worth a damn with the 'match grade' stuff but shot M-80 to a minute constantly. That is the nature of the M-14 -- you won't know what you have until you shoot it.
There are reasons why the Army finally got rid of the M-14 as a service rifle and for snipers. In terms of the snipers, you just mentioned one reason. The other is trying to get them to shoot consistently well and the fact that they will shit the bed in terms of holding accuracy without any real reason.
Personally, I would have great confidence in a new M-14 as a service rifle. I wouldn't have that confidence with one in a sniper configuration unless it was significantly altered from its original design and that would probably bring a host of new problems to its design that I wouldn't want to face.
It was fun shooting when it still reigned as the best service rifle for competitive shooting but it disappeared from the firing line as fast as it disappeared from general issue to the Army. And for the same reasons.
Unfortunately, I just don't know of any 'out of the box' gas operated 7.62 that will shoot to the degree of accuracy demanded by precision shooters. All of them seem to need a 'guru' who has spent many years with that particular design in order to make them into something dependable.
My advice -- don't use a M-14 for the job you are describing. It does put more kinetic energy into something but you have to hit that something first.
Gene
one-zero
10-14-2005, 10:41
I concur w/gene.
I've always liked the M21(later the M25) but it came down to nostalgic reasoning in the end as that's the weapon I 1st learned on in Army Sniper school...later, after attending SOTIC and taking things up a notch with real precision shooting I had to stand by bolt guns.
Though many opinions are voiced over SR-25s, that ended up being my working gun on a sniper tm. Just had to find a good gun - it was a love/hate thing for many guys. But for a gas/sniper weapon she couldn't be beat out to 700m (168gr) and made engaging additional tgts before they could hide an easier chore. Used the Leupold scope/rings on the rail mount just like my M24. The best thing I can say is that it was consistent and versatile.
Gene & One Zero,
I just found out today that the 14's will be used specifically in situations that will require "quick" follow up shots (what this means in a law enforcement situation is beyond me). They will also be the go to rifles used at night with a certain NOD made by ATN. I think we are heading into a world full of you-know-what, but, on the brighter side I won't be there when it happens.:)
You gentlemen wouldn't have any ideas on how to accurize a British L1A1 would you?:munchin
Smokin Joe
10-14-2005, 23:20
Forgive the hijack, but this statement reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day. There's much ballyhoo over 'stopping power' and 'one shot kills' coming out of theater, and besides the Hollywierd influcence, I think another big reason is a significant lack of hunting experience in today's youth. Anyone that's hunted big game knows that even the 'one shot' larger hunting calibers (i.e. .308, 30-06, 7mm, etc) rarely put the animal down immediately. You can get a good sidelong shot that perforates both lungs, shreds the heart and fractures the shoulders, and you'll still follow a 50m bloodtrail to find the body before the animal bleeds out and stops. A buddy went antelope hunting last week with his .308, got a lucky frontal shot that hit low on her chest, split the sternum, lacerated the heart and just about field dressed her on the spot, and she still ran/jumped 25m before coming to a stop. Folks that don't hunt just don't understand the power of the will to live despite mortal wounds, I think.
I tried explaining this very point in a recent Firearms class and it went way over half of the classes head. I guess some people just don't understand what oxgenaited (sp?) blood does.
Gene & One Zero,
I just found out today that the 14's will be used specifically in situations that will require "quick" follow up shots (what this means in a law enforcement situation is beyond me). They will also be the go to rifles used at night with a certain NOD made by ATN. I think we are heading into a world full of you-know-what, but, on the brighter side I won't be there when it happens.:)
Be very very glad you are no where near this project. Because when one of your officers use's it in the capacity that they intend to use it in and it shits the bed. Money will flow out of your department like whine at the final super...
Good luck trying to change their minds.
MAB32, I'll ask around for you. I haven't heard it been done, though.
Smokin Joe,
Yep, it sure will, and if and when it happens it will be posted here first.
Huey14,
I will be first to tell you that I have fallen in love with this rifle. It is accurate enough as a MBR, mags are inexpensive, it shoots darn near everything i feed it and have yet in 7 years experienced a malfunction that wasn't my fault. ANY info you can give me will be helpful. I am on FalFiles constantly looking for accessories and info.
Ahhhhh, sorry guys, don't mean to hijack the thread.:(
Ahhhhh, sorry guys, don't mean to hijack the thread.:(
Well after following this thread for days now all I can say is I'm going to drag my .30-06 M1 and myself out behind the shed and hide. Just something about that "ping" as the clip ejects out the top to make a person want to plink with it all day long.
An M14/M1A will be the next toy I go hunting for. I'll have to keep this thread handy.
Buffalobob
04-04-2011, 18:59
The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.
We were out in the jungle and Bailey comes to me and says he needs to go back in and can I call for a bird. I ask him why and he says his bedding has "broken". Well, Jack Maroney and I had had a small difference of opinion back at Devens and as my punishment I was the range officer on Saturdays for the 10th Group markmanship team for some prolonged period of time so I actually knew what NM and M21 bedding looked like. So sure enough the bedding on Bailey's M21 was falling out. I didn't think we had enough det cord and C4 to blow a LZ for a bird so I just told him to take the scope off and we probably weren't going to be shooting very far in that dam jungle any way. :D
Thing was we finally get back to the rear and Bailey heads off to the Sniper School and they can't get his rifle bedded and cured in time for him to go back out with us and he misses a whole mission.
Gentleman,
I know this thread hasn't been replied to in while, but in an attempt not to open an unnecessary thread I will post my question here first.
I am currently building an M14 variant and I would like some advice on optics and some QP analysis on the build itself. Thanks in advance.
After a ton of research I have ordered a J Allen stock to increase accuracy. Originally, I was going to drop in my SOCOM 16 internals into the rifle, but I have been advised that it will not be able to accurately engage targets in the 800M range which seems logical.
I have spoken with the only company in the US that builds forged recievers and bolt assemblies, and will be finalizing an order with them shortly. I still have some issues with barrel selection though. I am currently leaning towards a chrome moly Chriterion 18.5. The PSG I have been talking to has explained to me that I would potentially be better off with a standard steel barrel, but he cannot seem to justify why it is better than a chrome moly/chrone lined barrel.
Finally, I am looking at a Mark 8 CQBSS 1.1x8 to top off then entire package. Anyone out there actually had any experience with this optic since it is fairly new? I understand it is expensive, but my sniper section is telling me I am better off spending equal if not more money on glass as I do the gun.
I am essentially looking to be able to accurately engage mid range targets with a weapon system that is not the the typical 7.62 AR. Any and all criticism to the build and/or optic is welcome/appreciated. Thank you.
-Apto
SomethingWitty
01-01-2013, 23:06
This is something I wrote a year ago for people that were willing what goes into making an M14 into a decent target rifle, and it was well received. All of the points are still the same...the M14 is obsolete as a competition arm, and you are much the wiser to not go down the expensive route of making one shoot. Throw all of the tricks at it, and it will only be as good as a 950.00 RRA A2NM. I keep mine around as a toy, a novelty, something to remind me of the good old days that I missed by a good ten years.
In the Beggining...
Twenty-five years ago if you went to Camp Perry, and surveyed the line you would have seen it bristling with match conditioned M14's in the hands of military shooting teams, M1 Garands in the hands of many civilians, and a few misguided individuals with AR-15's that were universally scoffed at for their delusion.
Somewhere in those twenty-five years, those misguided individuals began winning matches...a lot of them. And people began to pay attention; the Army Marksmanship Unit was the first military team to win with the mouse gun, and eventually everyone began to follow suit. With it's light recoil, and new bullets that could shoot 600 yards without being blown into the next county, the little mattel toy was universally easy to shoot. And it was even easier to make work. If you put a good barrel and freefloat it on an AR...it will shoot. Today the only thing that an M14 can do better than an AR, big or small, is in it's incredibly smooth buttstroking and bayoneting action.
Since then, the M14 has faded mostly into obscurity, only being used by a few die-hard fanatics, and former members of the old guard of Highpower. The All Guard, USMC, Navy, and other shooting teams still kept their M14's, but they gather dust until the Long-Range Prone matches, which is still a 30-cal domain as far as Service Rifle is concerned. However, the smiths that once kept these rifles in running shape have retired. The legalization of the M110 by the NRA for Service Rifle has also changed the game. The Army Marksmanship Unit set a new reccord for Long-Range Service Rifle this past year, and the other services will be using AR-10's at 800, 900, 1000 this year.
The zenith of the M14/M1A as a competition arm has long since past. So why should you ever go down the long and often expensive process to make this rifle shoot? Well you shouldn't. It's not a ballistic advantage, the recoil pushes you around the mat, ammo is more expensive, and it's just plain on harder to shoot.
But there are those like me that will not take our own advice; we are still endeared to our forefathers who shot 'real' rifles made of steel and wood. So we will travel the roads of the 30-cal Jedi, and hope that it leads us to spiritual enlightenment and nirvana.
My experience with the M14 starts about 3 years ago with one of the state guard shooting teams. I attended their shooting program as a civilian, and the only National Match arm we had was the M14. They were very nice rifles, with heavy titanium bedded McMillan stocks, Parkerized Kreiger Chrome-Moly barrels, and crisp 4.5lb trigger pulls. Shortly afterwards, I embarked down the path of getting one of these fine rifles, and learning to shoot it. Fast forward to just recently, in the 2011 National Matches. In the Springfield Armory M1A match, I fired a score of 198-13x, 92-1x, 95-2x, and some god awful score with 1x in standing with my M1A. If I had been paying a little more attention, and shot one more 9 on my target, instead of a 10 on the next target over, I would have walked away with a nice chunk of money. Even with my mistakes, I still had 17x's, more than any other competitor, and was the 3rd placing Junior shooter. Not bad for a really bad year.
So finally we get to the bacon; What does it take to make one of these rifles shoot? Well...you have to be perfectly consistent in every regard when you shoot it...but I'm not going to tell you how to shoot. I'm going to tell you how to spend money (again). Or you could just not do it in the first place.
The most important piece of equipment on your club is going to be the barrel. Makers like Douglas, Kreiger, and Satern all make heavy profile barrels for the M1A, and will chamber them to your liking. I have used both Douglas and Kreiger, and I prefer a Kreiger in Stainless Steel. Once again, cut rifling lasts longer than button rifling, and Kreigers are sure bets. With .308 Winchester, twist rates are not as important as they can be with other calibers. A 1:10 will shoot pretty much any bullet you throw at it; I've been happy with mine. Right now, my barrel has more or less a standard chamber. 175 Sierras loaded to mag-length jump quite a ways in mine. However, if I was to do it again, I would have the chamber cut for Sierra 175's to touch the lands when loaded to 2.80 aka magazine length. The 175 performs well at all distances, and I could still use the Berger 185 VLD or Boat-Tail Long-Range if I wanted an edge at 1000. Or if I really wanted an edge at 1000...I would build an AR10 and be done with it!
The powders that were favored 'back in the day' were IMR 4895, H4895, Reloader 15 (42.5-43grains with a Sierra 175 is the M118LR load), and IMR 4064. Varget should also work pretty well.
SomethingWitty
01-01-2013, 23:08
Part II
Now that we have a good barrel, we now need to fix all of the junk that hangs off of it. Most of this does not make the rifle more accurate, but rather prevents it from being less accurate.
Starting from the front, the flash-hider needs to be reemed to a larger diameter. A bullet strike or nic on the bird cage is no bueno. Making the hole larger provides peace of mind.
Now we move to the gas piston. The gas piston system is generally two piece in the standard equipment affair. Our rifle cannot have even the slightest chance that movement between these two pieces could cause an accuracy errror, so we need to combine the two into one. Once again, it's a security issue, and falls under the list of "things that might make a difference, but couldn't hurt." The USMC team got around this by welding the two pieces together, while the army had a neater looking, but no more effective process of screwing the two together. I am pretty sure there are multiple manufactures that sell already 'unitized' gas cylinders.
We are almost to the receiver, and we have the op-rod attached, and we look at the op-rod guide. It's that funky square piece of metal that fits inside of the spring that reciprocates the op-rod. If you pay close attention, you will notice that it's a square peg that is loosely fit into a round hole. It's perfectly adequate for use in a military weapon, but not very comforting in our target rifle. So we need to get a National Match Op-Rod Guide, which is doing what should have been done in the first place. We put our now round peg into our still round hole and feel much better about ourselves.
Now we can pat ourselves on the back for taking out some of the engineering flaws that those knuckleheads at Springfield Armory (Govt Edition) put into our rifle when they were selfishly thinking about producing the rifle in numbers, and not about our needs.
We still need to do the second most important thing, next to putting on our laser grade barrel. We still need a stock that will cradle our baby, and nurse it's way right into the X-ring. This means glass bedding an extra heavy stock in either fiberglass, or in wood. Mine is done in wood, and my next one will be done in fiberglass. We have pretty much one pattern of stock for CMP/NRA Competition, and are not allowed to use any of the newer 'tacticool' stocks. There is quite a range of quality bedding compounds. My gunsmith prefers the Devcon Titanium bedding compound because it is the most durable he has found. With Titanium, it is still possible to remove the rifle from the stock, and to put it back in without any harm. However, I do not remove my rifle from it's stock unless I am cleaning the gas system.
Bedding the rifle is probably the most labor intensive and difficult part of making an M14 shoot. It's not really laid out like a Remington 700 which is essentially a round tube. Not only does the receiver have to be bedded, but so does the lower/trigger group so that it fits tightly in the stock. It takes a lot of modeling clay to fill in the places that you do not want bedding compound. When the stock is bedded, a piece of cardboard is stuck between the lower lip of the gas cylinder, and the stock ferrule. This ensures that when the bedding sets up, that there will not be excessive tension on the barrel when it put into the stock.
We still haven't put sights on our rifle. On the standard M14 and M1A's, the sights are graduated in 1MOA increments for elevation and windage. However, in target shooting, a more precise sight with smaller adjustments allows us to better center the shot group. The NM 2/A sight group that we should use is a part that was originally developed for the M1 Garand. The windage screw/pinion has finer graduations of 1/2 MOA, and the elevation is still 1 MOA clicks. In order to get 1/2 MOA elevation adjustments, the hole in the hooded apeture is offset. It has an up and a down position. Rotating it from the down to the up position adds 1/2 MOA, while rotating it the other way takes away 1/2 MOA. So we can sometimes get away with just rotating the hood, or we may have to add a click, and then rotate the hood to the down position to get the elevation adjustment we want.
The front sight of our rifle can either be the standard GI affair, or the thinner bladed NM widget. Both are windage adjustable, and I like to use the front sight so that mechanical zero and real zero on the windgauge are the same.
Final Success
So there we have it. A 'real' wood and steel rifle that any hairy chested man and his father could be proud of. It shoots a 'real' round too, one of our good ole 'thuttys', and it will kick like a mule. Even on it's best days, it will only shoot as good as an AR. It will make you rock back and forth in standing. You will scoot all over your mat in prone rapid-fire. By the end of an 80 shot NMC you will be looking for the advil. You will look at your old man and wonder if his back problems, and crankiness all stem from US RIFLE M14, and you will be able to look him in the eye and say "I understand."
But even though it is a pain in the ass, there is nothing quite as cathartic as spray-gluing one of these rifles to your shooting coat and glove, and then pounding out a few cleans in sitting rapid fire at 200 yards with the old beast.
But Not Quite
If you get serious about chasing leg points with an M14, you best have at least 3 M14's...the one you are shooting that is going to break, the backup rifle, and the rifle that is in the shop because it's broke. Or you will realize your folly and buy an AR15 like you should have done in the first place.
Peregrino
01-02-2013, 19:20
Reminds me of a wiseass comment made by a diehard .30 cal shooter at a local match a few years ago. He was overheard sneering about "all the wussies shooting girlie guns". IIRC the comment that shut him up was "yes, but at least we're shooting manly scores". Given that he was > 60 points behind the leader (on a 500 pt. match) we didn't hear much from him for the rest of the day. FWIW - I'll keep my M1As and M1Gs for nostalgia, meantime I'm saving the expensive ammo and serious shooting for the AR platforms.
SomethingWitty
01-02-2013, 21:23
Reminds me of a wiseass comment made by a diehard .30 cal shooter at a local match a few years ago. He was overheard sneering about "all the wussies shooting girlie guns". IIRC the comment that shut him up was "yes, but at least we're shooting manly scores". Given that he was > 60 points behind the leader (on a 500 pt. match) we didn't hear much from him for the rest of the day. FWIW - I'll keep my M1As and M1Gs for nostalgia, meantime I'm saving the expensive ammo and serious shooting for the AR platforms.
I like my M14, and I still endeavour to shoot a 480/500 with it one of these days. It's more satisfying to do well with it as opposed to the AR, but when it comes right down to it, it is an inferior system. When it comes to chasing my Presidents 100 tab, or finishing out my Rifle Distinguished badge, the AR is where it's at.
I might build another one around the 155gr bullets in the future; the newer Sierra Palma bullet is much better than the old one, and it is easy to make it shoot. Sierra also came out with a new 120 (might be 125) grain bullet that would work pretty good for 200 yards. It might make it easier, but even with all the tricks, it will never be as simple/easy as an AR.
The rack-grade configuration is probably the most useful configuration that an M14 comes in; Any of the other configurations, and you should have to have a certain GT score to even be allowed to carry one.
frostfire
01-02-2013, 23:00
[QUOTE=SomethingWitty;480979]I might build another one around the 155gr bullets in the future; the newer Sierra Palma bullet is much better than the old one, and it is easy to make it shoot./QUOTE]
I thought the .308 development essay that you posted mentions while the 155 rules at palma match, it does not fare too well out of a semi auto platform from lost MV
SomethingWitty
01-03-2013, 00:04
I thought the .308 development essay that you posted mentions while the 155 rules at palma match, it does not fare too well out of a semi auto platform from lost MV
The 155gr bullets are used in International Palma because that is what the rules allow for; US Palma rules do not have a bullet weight limit. As a result, a few people shoot the heavier bullets for their decreased wind deflection. The 185 Berger that the AMU uses in their AR10's is one of the best bullets out there. I shoot the 155's in my bolt-gun because that is what the international standard is right now, and shooting at the international level is my long-term goal. (If I am able to find time for it.)
There have been 155gr bullets that have came out in the last 5 years that are better than the old Palma bullet (2155). The newer 155gr Sierra (2156) will have identical wind-drift numbers at 2750fps as the 175gr Sierra has at 2600fps. That should be do-able with an M14, although I might take the step of having an under-sized gas-port, or a vented gas plug, or both.
Both bullets are still better (wind drift) than the standby 168gr bullet; However it is just about impossible to make the 168 not shoot...I am pretty sure I could put it in the case backwards, and still be able to clean the 200 yard target.
The thing that would merit chambering an M14 (or .308 across the course rifle) around the 155gr bullets, is that I would only have to buy one kind of bullet for all of my .308 rifles, and I could have reduced power loads for rapid fire strings, without giving anything up at 600 yards.
And the only thing that would merit shooting an M14 in an Across the Course competition is just to be different than everyone else; and with that in mind, I might paint my stock a nice vibrant bubblegum pink. And yell "GET SOME" every time the target goes down. At that point, I would be there just to remind everyone that I am having A LOT more fun than they are.
Back to being realistic; if I had access to a steady diet of M118LR, that's what I would shoot.
frostfire
01-03-2013, 20:23
The thing that would merit chambering an M14 (or .308 across the course rifle) around the 155gr bullets, is that I would only have to buy one kind of bullet for all of my .308 rifles, and I could have reduced power loads for rapid fire strings, without giving anything up at 600 yards.
And the only thing that would merit shooting an M14 in an Across the Course competition is just to be different than everyone else; and with that in mind, I might paint my stock a nice vibrant bubblegum pink. And yell "GET SOME" every time the target goes down. At that point, I would be there just to remind everyone that I am having A LOT more fun than they are.
Back to being realistic; if I had access to a steady diet of M118LR, that's what I would shoot.
That makes sense, at 600yards the 155 should perform still out of gas gun.
Concur with the M14 (M1A) in XTC matches. My HP coach actually went distinguished a 2nd time with his M1A. Being the proud "once a marine, always a marine" scout sniper honor grad that he is, he made it one of life's goal to master the M1A. Yes, $$$$$ of mod equal to another match AR and more $$$$$ of ammo experimentations.
When I first tried M1A though, I thought I found an instant ticket to master/high master. With that loooong sight radius, my offhand scores could not drop under 95.....but then my position during sitting and prone rapid was so destroyed with each shot to the point the scores were too embarassing to mention (it revealed so much slack/deficiency that when I transitioned back to AR my scores went up!). Since then I wanted to shoot HP service rifle in .308. Alas, the OBR is not allowed, although the SR25/M110 is :boohoo
SomethingWitty
01-07-2013, 22:53
That makes sense, at 600yards the 155 should perform still out of gas gun.
Concur with the M14 (M1A) in XTC matches. My HP coach actually went distinguished a 2nd time with his M1A. Being the proud "once a marine, always a marine" scout sniper honor grad that he is, he made it one of life's goal to master the M1A. Yes, $$$$$ of mod equal to another match AR and more $$$$$ of ammo experimentations.
When I first tried M1A though, I thought I found an instant ticket to master/high master. With that loooong sight radius, my offhand scores could not drop under 95.....but then my position during sitting and prone rapid was so destroyed with each shot to the point the scores were too embarassing to mention (it revealed so much slack/deficiency that when I transitioned back to AR my scores went up!). Since then I wanted to shoot HP service rifle in .308. Alas, the OBR is not allowed, although the SR25/M110 is :boohoo
How do you go double distinguished in Service Rifle? :p I am guessing he just got up the the level where he would be able to go Distinguished with it if he were actually elgible for Leg Points. Although, if they had rocker-bars for every different service rifle, that would be amusing to say the least...I would want them all, even if they did look ridiculous.
I still have 2 points to get; maybe I will do it with an M14 just so I can say that "I went Distinguished on the M14." Making it hot-pink would just be icing on the cake, and all of the strange looks would be worth it.
The M110 for Service Rifle was a silly move, and I understand part of the reason it was approved, but it is as much of a Service Rifle as an M24 is.
SomethingWitty
01-18-2013, 11:11
Here is a decent article about reloading for the M14.
PDF WARNING
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
SomethingWitty
01-31-2013, 23:08
Recently, I aquired a Vortex PST 4-16 SFP MIL/MIL scope in the mail. I finally got out to the range today and was able to mount it on my M14-DMR. My M14-DMR is the same gun I shot in the 2011 M1A match with fairly good results, but I changed the stock for a McMillan M2A that was an OIF bring-back.
Overview
A lot of people denigrate the M14 as a Sniper Weapon System as it is fairly fragile; which is fairly accurate statement. It's not as rock solid as the M24/M3 Ultra combo which is almost impossible to fuck up; but it is still a much more proven system than the M110 system. My opinion of the M110 comes from people that have gotten to use the rifle, and while it is very accurate, it is not very reliable. A lot of soldiers are/have been unhappy with the rifle because the tolerances is so tight that if you shoot it with the suppressor, you will have to clean it after a magazine. There have also been issues with trigger breaking. I think that the concept of a sub-MOA semi auto sniper rifle at the expense of reliability is silly...a reliable 1 MOA rifle is sufficient.
In order to use the M14 as an effective SWS, one has to pay very close attention to almost every little detail. The barrel cannot be free-floated, and it must have a certain amount of tension on it in order to shoot well. Changing the tension between the gas system and stock will alter the point of impact. Shooting the rifle with the bipod on concrete vs sand/dirt will change the point of impact also. Basically, you need to approach it with the idea that your rifle is a tuning fork, and that the slightest error will make it sing off-key.
Another major shortcoming for the M14 is the scope mounts. The Brookfield mounts work well like the one from Smith Enterprise work well, but they have a very specific procedure to mount them, and once they are mounted properly, they really should have green loc-tite applied to the screws. The screw that holds the mount into the side of the receiver needs to be properly torqued with a 65-inch-pounds, and if it is over-tightened, the screw threads will strip; this is to keep numbnuts from stripping the threads in the receiver itself. The mounts are also adjustable, and need to be carefully tweaked in order for the rifle to zero correctly; because the specs of the cut in the side of receiver where the mounts hook in is not very carefully controlled, it is not as simple as having a 20 MOA decline mount like you do on a bolt-gun.
Once the rifle is zeroed, you still need to check that the scope is going to have enough adjustment to zero at 100 and make it out to 1000. For .308 M118LR, that means having almost 45 MOA or 13 Mils of elevation, and having a little extra is a good idea so that you can have ample windage adjustments.
At the Range
I started the day at the range, and mounted the scope on the rifle. I had to remove the iron-sight because the scope would not clear the hood of my rear sight. I spent quite a bit of time dicking around with the mount; it needed to be adjusted so that I would have adequate elevation to reach 1000 yards, and still be able to zero at 100. I spent most of the day shooting off of sand bags because the bipod is too tall for the gun.
My overall view of the Vortex PST is that it is a very good scope. I did not have any problems with it, and it works as advertised. The turret/adjustments are much nicer than the Leupold Mark IV and M3A scopes that I also got to play with, but the glass on the Leupolds was noticeably brighter. However, I was able to resolve bullet holes at 200 yards that were on white paper, as well as on black pasters. I did not do any comparison with the lined/numbered charts, and I think my uncorrected vision (I am supposed to wear glasses but don't.) plays a part in how well I can resolve things. The shimmed zero stops work as advertised and are a good idea; I have my zeros written down so that if the turret shoots loose, I can tighten it back up, bottom it out on the zero stop, and count the clicks up from bottom.
After I had the rifle zeroed at 100 yards, I spent the rest of the time shooting groups at 100, and checking the adjustments on the scope. The scope worked flawlessly like it does in the youtube videos.
I do not consider myself a very talented benchrest/sandbagger. I probably shoot a thousand rounds off of a shooting mat for every ten I fire off of a bench. The M14 is one of the more difficult rifles to shoot accurately from a rest; the hammer is quite heavy, and if you dry fire the gun, you may notice the crosshairs shift when it falls. Trigger control can also be more challenging with the pistol grip stocks because the M14 trigger lever does not travel straight back like an AR15; the M14 was designed around a traditional stock, and the motion of the trigger reflects that. With that being said, doing well with the M14 comes back to paying attention to small details, and patience.
Since I like to brag, here are the measurements of my better groups.
I did a test on the elevation consistency toward the end of the day, after I hard fired 70 rounds through the barrel. I just wanted to use the last of the ammo I loaded for the rifle. The groups were as follows, with the farthest distance between shots listed. I measured from center-center with some calipers; that seems to be what the cool kids are doing.
* 3 shot group at +1 mil = .375
* 3 shot group at 0 mil = .990
* 3 shot group at -1 mil = .554
Earlier, I shot a 5 shot group off of the sand bags, and then off the bipod to check if/how much POI shift there is between the two. There was about a 1/2 minute shift upwards from using the bipod; however I am going to repeat the test when I get a shorter, more comfortable bipod.
* 5 shot group off sand-bags= .536 (elevation spread .200)
* 5 shot group off bipod= 1.401 (7 shots from the two 5 shot groups were within .800, 2 shots were thrown about an inch higher, and one was thrown about 1/2 inch high and left.)
There were other groups shot during the day, but I did not cut them out and put them in my data book. Realistically, I expect this rifle to do around 3/4 MOA; not much better, and not much worse. It and I might get more consistent in the future, but my training focus is not on shooting groups so I can claim my M14 is exceptional.
I finished up the day by shooting cold-bore shots at 100 and 200 yards with M118LR, which runs a little hotter than my hand loads. Impact at 100 yards was .9 inches right, and 1.06 inches high at 100 yards. Impact at 200 yards was 1.1 inches hight and .727 left at 200 yards.
Future Plans
With the rifle zeroed, and the scope working well, the next step is to get zeros out to 1000 yards, and to graft the data with clear tape to the stock, as well as loading ammo that will duplicate M118LR. I will probably replace the NM sight with a USGI sight, or modify the NM sight so that it will fit below the scope. A new, shorter bipod is also in the future.
Actually, OSUT/SOPC/SFAS is in the near future, and I probably wont see this rifle for a good 6-12 months. :lifter
frostfire
02-01-2013, 05:30
A lot of people denigrate the M14 as a Sniper Weapon System as it is fairly fragile; which is fairly accurate statement. It's not as rock solid as the M24/M3 Ultra combo which is almost impossible to fuck up; but it is still a much more proven system than the M110 system. My opinion of the M110 comes from people that have gotten to use the rifle, and while it is very accurate, it is not very reliable. A lot of soldiers are/have been unhappy with the rifle because the tolerances is so tight that if you shoot it with the suppressor, you will have to clean it after a magazine. There have also been issues with trigger breaking. I think that the concept of a sub-MOA semi auto sniper rifle at the expense of reliability is silly...a reliable 1 MOA rifle is sufficient.
man, you really love the M14 doncha :D I better not drag the beloved OBR to comparison.
While I put 5 M118LR through the M110 to a barely two-to-three .308 wide holes (Rick B can verify, he was spotting. I think I put the group here somewhere), I actually heard that due to inconsistent QC in mass production, its accuracy leaves much to be desired ie. during the intl. sniper comp at Benning. Thus, not meeting the curriculum demand originally set for the M24.
Agree with the sub-MOA take. Although I'd like to know my rifle is capable of it, if I can hold 1 MOA after all the dashing, dancin, and prancin I'm happy as a duck in water.
SomethingWitty
02-04-2013, 18:55
man, you really love the M14 doncha :D I better not drag the beloved OBR to comparison.
While I put 5 M118LR through the M110 to a barely two-to-three .308 wide holes (Rick B can verify, he was spotting. I think I put the group here somewhere), I actually heard that due to inconsistent QC in mass production, its accuracy leaves much to be desired ie. during the intl. sniper comp at Benning. Thus, not meeting the curriculum demand originally set for the M24.
Agree with the sub-MOA take. Although I'd like to know my rifle is capable of it, if I can hold 1 MOA after all the dashing, dancin, and prancin I'm happy as a duck in water.
Mine shoots...Okay.
Shots marked with white were off of the bipod. Unmarked was a 5 shot group off of the bench.