View Full Version : Is this true?
cszakolczai
09-13-2005, 17:07
Ok well heres the rumor
A buddy of mine has a friend who owns a para ordnance handgun. My buddy was able to put a couple of rounds through it, he says that it was so loud he couldn't hear. This I can understand, but than the kid whos handgun it was said that the noise is about the same as a suppressed M4. This I just can't take myself to believe. My friend told me to get some proof that the M4 was quieter so I am coming to you guys. Whats the real truth here?
Chris
rubberneck
09-13-2005, 17:41
Ok well heres the rumor
A buddy of mine has a friend who owns a para ordnance handgun. My buddy was able to put a couple of rounds through it, he says that it was so loud he couldn't hear. This I can understand, but than the kid whos handgun it was said that the noise is about the same as a suppressed M4. This I just can't take myself to believe. My friend told me to get some proof that the M4 was quieter so I am coming to you guys. Whats the real truth here?
Chris
The guy who owns the Paraord is an idiot. I copied this from Surefire's website:
Sound Science Made Simple.
The design went through several iterations as the sophisticated Danish sound machine told Dueck and Smith precisely what baffle arrangements worked better than others. Sound reduction, he found, was also dependent on atmospheric conditions. "We'd get one reading one day and another the next. Barometric pressure, temperature and humidity were all having an effect," Dueck said. "We had to test a given design a number of times under different conditions to get a meaningful reading."
After finalizing on the optimum design, the noise attenuation was rated at between 27 and 30 decibels (dB), reducing the sound of a 5.56mm to a handclap from an ear-splitting crack.
To appreciate how significant a reduction 30 dB represents, we need to understand how sound is measured. Most noise sources are measured in terms of intensity, or strength of the sound field. The standard unit of measure is 1 dB which is the amount of sound that is barely audible to the average human.
The decibel scale is logarithmic, meaning that each unit is 10 times that of the preceding one. For example, a noise source measuring 70 dB is 10 times as loud as a source measuring 60 dB and 100 times as loud as a source reading 50 dB.
A barely audible whisper measures 10 dB and a speeding express train rates 100 dB, although the train generates 10 billion times as much sound energy. This misleading difference can also be seen in earthquakes using the Richter scale, which is a logarithmic scale like the decibel scale. A magnitude of 5.3 on the Richter scale is a moderate earthquake, while a devastatingly strong earthquake has a magnitude of 6.3. Thus, like sound, a small difference in value actually means a great difference in intensity. "Reducing a gunshot by 30 dB makes it 1,000 times quieter. To put it another way, the sound of the action cycling - just the bolt clattering back and forth - is louder than the round firing," Dueck explained.
"Even a 14-inch barreled M4 can be safely fired indoors without damaging your hearing," the director of the Suppressor Division added. "This is a very significant tactical advantage."
The Reaper
09-13-2005, 20:47
The guy who owns the Paraord is an idiot. I copied this from Surefire's website:
I know Dueck and Smith.
Listen to them, they know what they are talking about.
Chris, I hate to break this to you, but your friend is an idiot. If your assessment is correct, everything he knows about firearms would fit in an empty .22LR case with room to spare.
TR
Ambush Master
09-13-2005, 20:57
I know Dueck and Smith.
Listen to them, they know what they are talking about.
Chris, I hate to break this to you, but your friend is an idiot. If your assessment is correct, everything he knows about firearms would fit in an empty .22LR case with room to spare.
TR
I'd be a wee bit more sarcastic in this statement, "everything he knows about firearms would fit in" ...... the indention in the base of a .22LR cartridge from the firing pin, with room to spare !!!
Later
Martin
From the Surefire article above.
"To put it another way, the sound of the action cycling - just the bolt clattering back and forth - is louder than the round firing," Dueck explained."
The cycling of the action will not be the loudest element in a suppressed rifle, the supersonic crack of the projectile will be quite more louder.
The Reaper
09-14-2005, 09:18
I think Barry was saying that the muzzle report is less noisy than the weapon functioning, not that the sonic crack is suppressed.
The sound of the sonic wave is perceived differently as well. Unless you are using sub-sonic ammunition, in which case he is correct as quoted.
The point that you bring up is an issue of semantics, not technical expertise.
TR
I think Barry was saying that the muzzle report is less noisy than the weapon functioning, not that the sonic crack is suppressed.
The sound of the sonic wave is perceived differently as well. Unless you are using sub-sonic ammunition, in which case he is correct as quoted.
The point that you bring up is an issue of semantics, not technical expertise.
TR
TR
Even if we not take in account the super sonic flight noise, i would say that the sound level of the action cycling is not at the 133-138 dB (A) SPL, that a M4 carbine with a 14.5" barrel exhibits at the muzzle with a quality suppressor.
And i usually dont get tangled up in semantics too much. And i am not trying to discredit Mr. Duecks expertiece in any way.
The Reaper
09-14-2005, 10:02
TR
Even if we not take in account the super sonic flight noise, i would say that the sound level of the action cycling is not at the 133-138 dB (A) SPL, that a M4 carbine with a 14.5" barrel exhibits at the muzzle with a quality suppressor.
And i usually dont get tangled up in semantics too much. And i am not trying to discredit Mr. Duecks expertiece in any way.
Tuukka:
All I can tell you is that when I have fired the M-4 with the SureFire suppressor, I can hear the bolt cycling and the trigger resetting. I have never observed that with the same weapon and ammo, but no suppressor. The proximity and conduction of sound may be the cause, but nevertheless, the fact that you can hear the action cycling when shooting with the can remains.
My experience may be limited, I have only fired a hundred thousand rounds or so through M-4s and a couple thousand through the SureFire suppressor.
The suppressor is rated at a measured 27-30 dB (A) SPL of suppression, what are you allowing?
TR
TR, the fact that the action noises come very clear is quite common with AR15/M16 series weapons, even the spring noise in the buffer tube comes quite clear.
The fact that a quality suppressor made with current suppressor technoloy, suppresses the SPL by around 27-35 dB, causes the action noises to come more evident to the shooter. An M4 unsuppressed is around 163-165 at the muzzle.
For reference, here is a brief clip, the weapon is a BM M4 with a 14.5" barrel, with one of our suppressors. Of course the true nature of the sound doesnt come away quite as it does in the real life but one can see a clear differene though.
http://www.aseutra.fi/english/product/AU.wmv
I
The Reaper
09-14-2005, 10:22
TR, the fact that the action noises come very clear is quite common with AR15/M16 series weapons, even the spring noise in the buffer tube comes quite clear.
The fact that a quality suppressor made with current suppressor technoloy, suppresses the SPL by around 27-35 dB, causes the action noises to come more evident to the shooter. An M4 unsuppressed is around 163-165 at the muzzle.
For reference, here is a brief clip, the weapon is a BM M4 with a 14.5" barrel, with one of our suppressors. Of course the true nature of the sound doesnt come away quite as it does in the real life but one can see a clear differene though.
http://www.aseutra.fi/english/product/AU.wmv
I
I agree, hard to tell sounds from the video.
Is your can supposed to vent gas upward from the rear of the suppressor-barrel interface? I have not seen that before.
TR
The mount does vent some gases out, the mount has been made to take in account tolerances in flash hiders. It could be made in a way that the rear is completely sealed. It does not affect sound pressure levels.
The Reaper
09-14-2005, 10:48
And what is the sound signature of an unsuppressed .45ACP from a 5" barrel?
TR
And what is the sound signature of an unsuppressed .45ACP from a 5" barrel?
TR
There are many variables of course which can result in somewhat different results but a .45 ACP sound pressure levels from a 5" run in the neighborhood of 160 dB.
The pistol calibres we primarily deal with are the .22LR and 9x19mm.
cszakolczai
09-14-2005, 15:36
Thanks for all the responses, and tuuka, thanks for postin that vid. I've been searching everywhere for that. Something to show this kid. The kid who said that about the para isn't my friend just a kid who supposidly "knows his stuff."
Thanks again,
Chris
Smokin Joe
09-14-2005, 15:46
Anyone got video on the new Surefire suppressor? :munchin
I can host it if need be...
cszakolczai
09-14-2005, 15:48
yeah good question joe, anyone have anything on it, that article just makes me want to see that in action. I have pics of it, but thats it.
Chris
Archangel
09-14-2005, 19:06
Though both suppressors are not included in these tests, I think that you gentlemen might find this chart somewhat informative:
http://silencertests.com/reviews/list.pl?sortby=suppressed
cszakolczai
09-15-2005, 13:01
Thanks for postin the chart.
Chris
Smokin Joe
09-15-2005, 13:29
Chris,
I have it on good authority that you can comfortably talk over the noise produced by an M-4 with a surefire suppressor.
There has been a lot of talk about the SF supressor and I have talked to a few who have shot the SF supressor and they swear by them. These are trusted sources who have always given me straight no b.s. info.
Tell your friend to listen twice as much as he talks because he is making an ass out of himself.
The clip i linked to was meant for reference to this thread for professional discussion, not to end up in various car forums. So whoever linked it, remove the links.
The clip i linked to was meant for reference to this thread for professional discussion, not to end up in various car forums. So whoever linked it, remove the links.
If necessary, another possibility is to configure your server to only accept clients referrered there from PScom. That will also stop people from accessing the file by copying the url.
It will, obviously, not stop re-hosting of the files.
HTH,
Martin
cszakolczai
09-16-2005, 07:52
If necessary, another possibility is to configure your server to only accept clients referrered there from PScom. That will also stop people from accessing the file by copying the url.
It will, obviously, not stop re-hosting of the files.
HTH,
Martin
Thats true you can do all of that. But this site should have enough trust that there should be no reason to configure the server and actually take all that time and effort.
Chris
Smokin Joe
09-16-2005, 10:53
The clip i linked to was meant for reference to this thread for professional discussion, not to end up in various car forums. So whoever linked it, remove the links.
Tuuka,
My advise would be to move it before some dickhead steals it and posts it on bigboys.com.
Thats true you can do all of that. But this site should have enough trust that there should be no reason to configure the server and actually take all that time and effort.
Chris
IMHO, this site deserves to have no reason to configure the server in that manner, yes. History, however, shows that reality does not always follow what is appropriate. This is at least the third time this happens. I don't see why that trust should be there.
It might be guests who snatches the link, might not.
Wishful thinking doesn't solve the problem. No pun intended.
Martin
I know Dueck and Smith.
I don't know Smith, but Barry and I went to SFAS together. I can see why he put off the Q-Course when he landed the Surfire suppressor division chief job!
cszakolczai
09-22-2005, 18:41
Don't know if anyone else saw it but they had the gunny on mail call talk to the guy who helped create the sure fire silencer. Thing is quiet and small. The footage was amazing as was the design behind the silencer. Supposidly the guy has been making silencers since vietnam, anyone know this guy? I tuned in to late to catch his name.
Chris
The Reaper
09-22-2005, 22:21
Don't know if anyone else saw it but they had the gunny on mail call talk to the guy who helped create the sure fire silencer. Thing is quiet and small. The footage was amazing as was the design behind the silencer. Supposidly the guy has been making silencers since vietnam, anyone know this guy? I tuned in to late to catch his name.
Chris
I believe that you are mistaken.
And it is a "suppressor", not a silencer.
TR
cszakolczai
09-23-2005, 14:15
Sir,
Where am I mistaken? I admit to the suppressor and silencer that is true, I was just calling them what R Lee did on the show. Sorry for the mix up.
Chris
The Reaper
09-23-2005, 14:28
Sir,
Where am I mistaken? I admit to the suppressor and silencer that is true, I was just calling them what R Lee did on the show. Sorry for the mix up.
Chris
Barry Dueck is the creator of the SureFire suppressor. He is under 40 years old, has been doing this for about 5 years, IIRC, and is NOT a VN vet.
Yes I know him. The suppressors are small, and quiet.
Anything else?
TR
cszakolczai
09-23-2005, 14:32
Ok thank you sir, R Lee made it sound like the man who was showing him the suppressor was the man who created it. He was talking about the inside of it and how the gas is made to go through a maze where it than escapes out of the barrel at a slower rate. Sorry for the mix up.
Chris
You know, I saw that same episode of Mail Call (I caught it on reruns when I came home from work one morning and couldn't sleep right away).
The Gunny really showed his ass in that episode. Not only did he screw up what has already been mentioned, he also referred to the Ruger MKII that he fired as a "silenced .22 Luger."
It is very dissapointing when he does firearms related bits as he frequently demonstrates that while he has a wealth of common tactical knowledge, he can't find his ass with both hands when it comes to guns.
The Reaper
09-23-2005, 18:34
Ok thank you sir, R Lee made it sound like the man who was showing him the suppressor was the man who created it. He was talking about the inside of it and how the gas is made to go through a maze where it than escapes out of the barrel at a slower rate. Sorry for the mix up.
Chris
I know R. Lee, or can say I have met him a few times, and he is a hell of a great guy, but we all have our limitations and areas of expertise.
Your description could be Hiram Maxim for all that description.
TR
Polar Bear
09-23-2005, 19:29
Quick question so I can understand this thread better. When measuring db is it always at the muzzle?
PB
The Reaper
09-23-2005, 21:07
This is from a demo this week.
Runs fine on a M-249 SAW, this was the remainder of the second SAW ammo pack. Helps hold the muzzle down and reduces recoil, but speeds up the cyclic rate to about 900 rpms on the Normal setting, and 1200 rpm on Adverse.
Let it rip. No bobbles, suppressor or SAW.
Enjoy.
TR
cszakolczai
09-24-2005, 09:28
Wow thats pretty impressive.
one more question, Why is the surefire suppresor so good? Is it because its all new and revolutionary? Or is it because they just worked out the little things and worried about detail and made it just a little bit better?
Chris
Smokin Joe
09-24-2005, 09:41
Wow thats pretty impressive.
one more question, Why is the surefire suppresor so good? Is it because its all new and revolutionary? Or is it because they just worked out the little things and worried about detail and made it just a little bit better?
Chris
Chris,
You can answer your own question by just taking a look at the company. Do you think they would come out with anything less than top notch quality?
I have yet to see Surefire come out with any product that is less than top notch (and no I don't work for them I proudly pay for their merchandise).
As far as the why? I'm sure thats a trade secret.
cszakolczai
09-24-2005, 10:51
Thanks
The Reaper
09-24-2005, 11:11
Wow thats pretty impressive.
one more question, Why is the surefire suppresor so good? Is it because its all new and revolutionary? Or is it because they just worked out the little things and worried about detail and made it just a little bit better?
Chris
The theory behind suppressor construction is the same as when Maxim patented the first one.
The materials, more precise manufacturing techniques, fine tuning of the theory through extensive testing, and optimization of design combine to produce a durable, compact, lightweight, effective, and accurate suppressor.
TR
cszakolczai
09-25-2005, 08:49
Thanks TR,
I just am really fascinated by these suppressors, the things that they can do are just amazing.
Chris
I can reiterate what TR said above, Maxim designs have been tested in the recent years and they are good, taking in account the timeframe. Many of the designs following used the principles he worked with. There are though nowadays radically different baffle/element designs that do work exceptionally well.
The advances in small arms designs have brought new requirements to suppressors in the terms of durability in all forms and mounting capability to various types of flash hiders/mounts.
I had the chance to talk with the folks from Surefire at the USAREUR Land Combat Expo 2005 that was held last week and I talked on suppressors in general with Mr. Paul Kim.