PDA

View Full Version : Special Forces magazine article


stone
09-03-2005, 13:11
An interesting article in the current (October '05) Atlantic magazine.

Imperial Grunts: With the Army Special Forces in the Philippines and Afghanistan-- laboratories of counterinsurgency. By Robert Kaplan pp.84-93

dave_az
09-27-2005, 08:33
In case anyone can't find it, I can email out a PDF copy of it. Being that I can't figure out how to attach a file to an email thru this forum, you'll need to email me your email address so I can send it. Or, somebody tell me how to attach in this forum.

Cincinnatus
09-27-2005, 09:12
Dave,

Please do.

jon448
09-27-2005, 09:30
Dave could you email it to me as well... Thanks
Jon

jatx
09-27-2005, 10:21
Here's the link (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200510/kaplan-us-special-forces). Has anyone read the book yet?

dave_az
09-27-2005, 10:23
THANKS jatx. That will save me some time. I don't think the book is out yet.

jon448
09-27-2005, 10:29
Naw jatx, I just got it today at B&N. I'll hopefully have a chance to finish it by the end of the weekend. Once I do I'll post a review.

jatx
09-27-2005, 12:46
Great, I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts. The article was fairly positive toward SF but, with a title like Imperial Grunts, I worry that the work as a whole may have a more ideological edge to it.

Thanks for being our canary!

Cincinnatus
09-27-2005, 16:22
Interesting read. I think Kaplan tends to do a pretty good job. Some of the things he describes here are inspiring and uplifting, others disappointing and frustrating... therefor probably accurate? I think I'll get this book.

jatx,

Thanks for posting the link.

Dave,

Thanks for trying to send it to me.

jon448
09-27-2005, 21:40
Thanks for being our canary!
It's no problem... I typically read anything I can get my hands on that's current events related with what seems to be little to no bias.

Go For Broke
09-28-2005, 14:47
Finished the book last weekend. Fairly quick, but definitely more in-depth than the article. Thanks for the original post stone.

It is interesting, as you will find, that he is covering this war from a different perspective than most of the writers out there. He is definitely looking at this from a small wars / LIC perspective. He also compares the methods used by USSF, Marines, and Mother Army quite well. As a writer, he is free to critique the organizations / methods and this is a definitely a strength for him.

All in all, a great read. If you know of any conventional officers or NCOs out there, might want to point them towards this book.

I am looking forward to his follow-on book to this.

Any other thoughts?

V/R,

FILO
09-29-2005, 09:21
Here's the link (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200510/kaplan-us-special-forces). Has anyone read the book yet?

I’m half-way through the book. My first impression is it's okay, but at times a little over the top. To be expected, since he has to sell books.

vsvo
10-05-2005, 11:30
I’ve been jumping around the book reading different chapters as I find time. Kaplan does a good job of telling the stories of the characters he meets, their current duties, how they got to where they are, and their experiences along the way. Since I don’t know any SF soldiers, the only thing better than that type of reporting is, of course, found here at PS.com! :)

It was interesting that after his travels he returned to Ft. Bragg to brief the top echelon on the “defects of Special Forces” and how SF needed to “evolve.” Even though Kaplan framed his intent as relaying the thoughts of the NCO’s and officers with whom he was embedded, I wonder how the briefing by a journalist on how SF needed to change was received at JFKSWCS.

Kaplan’s premise is that SF is vulnerable to being swamped by Big Army and losing out when it comes time to divvy up the Pentagon budget. While acknowledging that SF was “hot,” and justified in claiming success in Afghanistan and enjoying prominence in OIF and GWOT, Kaplan claims this just makes SF more vulnerable. He likens SF’s predicament to Apple launching the personal computer revolution, then being dominated by Microsoft. Kaplan believes that unless Special Forces “evolve and correct its shortcomings,” it would suffer Apple’s fate.

This line of reasoning seems counter-intuitive, especially since the CSA comes from SOF and Secretary Rumsfeld is a strong proponent of expanding the role of SOF. Kaplan doesn’t expand on how he reached his conclusion, and I am a civilian who knows nothing about Army and Pentagon politics.

dennisw
10-11-2005, 09:31
First of all I would like to thank those involved for mentioning the article and the book. I'm about half way through the book and I'm really enjoying it so far.

I believe Kaplan's theory or premise that America is an empire although a reluctant one is of real interest. His analogy between the current activities of our SF teams in Colombia, Phillipines, Afganistan etc. and to the engagements of the English military during Kipling's time is welcomed. His portrait of the American military personnel as soldier statesman actually implementing policies they have partially created illustrates the power inherent in individuals who are highly trained and motivated. In this era of big companies, big armies, etc. it's illuminating to see that there the substantive impact in the actions of individuals.

I have not reached the point in the book where Kaplan is offering advice on how to change SF, but I imagine it will be in sync with the last chapter of Masters of Chaos where the author disccuses the ideas of General Lambert.

How to redefine SF in this global fight against terrorism should be an interesting process. How to keep big Army at bey and allow SF teams to actually join the fight in places like Columbia and the Phillipines will be one of the crucial battles.

In essence, Kaplan is saying essentially what General Lambert's proposes for the future role of the SF: to formally assign SF the responsibility of worldwide asymmetric threats. The SF would have permanent assignment to watch the hundred plus terrorst groups and insurgencies around the world and when trouble appears, to raised a flag, then plan and execute the plan to stop the threat. To do so without a layer of beaucracy watching over their shoulder and micro managing their actions.

General Lambert states,"The Special Forces soldier today is audacious, brave, and better than ever, and works best when totally unfettered."

However, it seems unlikely that big Army would sit idly by while SF personnel engage in robust activities around the world and they sit and wait for a big war to fight.

Also, it seems unlikely that we our nation could sustain such policies over the period of time required to make such a system successful. Before you know it, a Carter of Clinton would become president and screw up the whole system.

Lothar
10-15-2005, 04:36
After reading the excerpt in Atlantic monthly I look forward to getting a copy of the book. Robert Kaplan may just be this generations Robin Moore. A journalist who through his experiences while preparing for a book or an article has come to be an advocate of SOF.

The first time I read an article by Robert Kaplan I was getting ready to return from AFG on my first tour and someone gave me a copy of an article that was printed in the New York times. The article was very well written and articulated the fact that the "Big Army" may just be hindering the war effort through its conventional mindset. The article went on to describe how the troops out at the FOBs, PRTs and in the field are fighting the war and the other 10,000 are at Bagram and Kandahar licking ice cream cones and going to the PX (if you were stuck at BAF/KAF you know what you did) Kaplan was able to capture the common feeling of the troops through his interactions and observations.

It is good to see a responsible journalist who writes the reality of what is going on out there and then combines it with acute intellect of how to employ our "Soldier Statesmen".

The Reaper
10-15-2005, 08:26
Kaplan, along with Huntington and the Tofflers, was required reading at some military schools I have attended.

TR

Sweetbriar
10-15-2005, 10:21
I can't remember if the program is a repeat or new, but Kaplan is on CSpan2 today regarding his book.

http://www.booktv.org/General/index.asp?segID=6241&schedID=381

They do live streaming if you prefer:
http://www.c-span.org/

Tim OBrien also: http://www.booktv.org/General/index.asp?segID=6203&schedID=381

Leozinho
10-15-2005, 13:05
I was told Kaplan has lectured at SWCS and/or JSOC. (Not sure what exactly that "lecturing" consisted of. Might have been one speech, for all I know.)

He did sign his books in the SOAF library when he was there.

dedeppm
02-16-2006, 20:13
I sure wish my professors would assign this book. As a foreign affairs/political science major, I've been hearing for four years about the concept of imperialism both from classmates and professors (I'm sure you can guess their views; it is, after all, liberal arts). I was thrilled to pick up and read a book that approached imperialism as a pragmatic, real-world issue rather than as some abstract, intellectual construct. More valuable than most of the courses i've taken recently because of Kaplan's reliance on actual examples of what U.S. "imperialism," really looks like in its implementation.

It's also kind of cool as an examination of the military from a sociological standpoint, with reference to the soldiers' and marines' backgrounds and how they differ from the backgrounds of the country's liberal "elite."

Basenshukai
02-17-2006, 04:31
I met Mr. Kaplan during a seminar hosted by JFKSWCS when I was a student in the Q Course. We sat and ate lunch together and he went on about his idea that the United States is indeed an empire and so on. Such visitors and lecturers were common to us during Q Course and we learned a lot from their different perspectives. Dick Couch (The Finishing School; The Warrior Elite) was another author we had the priviledge to meet and talk with.

Well, by the time I graduated from the Q Course and was in a team, I had totally forgotten about my meeting with Mr. Kaplan. I just remembered his conversation regarding the US as an empire. Well, just before deploying to CENTCOM I buy the book "Imperial Grunts" and begin reading. As I'm reading the first few pages I'm thinking "I've heard this before". It turns out that during that luncheon, over two years prior, Mr. Kaplan was giving me the thesis behind his book - word for word.

I kept reading and found that Mr. Kaplan had deployed (embedded) with my very unit in South America for the development of his book and I knew, and worked with about 90% of the folks he talked about, or quoted in the book. When I spoke with one of the fellas and told him that Mr. Kaplan had quoted him in this book, his response was: "He f__ng did what!?" He was not too happy. Nothing is "off the record" with writers/journalists.

I enjoyed the book and Mr. Kaplan is a very talented writer. He keeps it factual and that turns out to portray SF in a very positive light.

Cincinnatus
02-17-2006, 11:43
A Washington Post reporter (IIRC, Dana Priest) wrote a book, the title of which escapes me at the moment, wherein she was making a similar case to Kaplan's re: our imperialist ambitions. Among other things she lamented the power and resources that a regional CINC had at his disposal vs. what an ambassador had at his or her disposal (e.g., an aircraft dedicated to their use.)

IIRC, she used the word "proconsul", repeatedly in describing folks like Gen. Zinni, and I certainly inferred that she felt we had embarked on a perilous course in allowing our military to take the lead in determining policy in a number of areas. The funny thing was that in every example she cited (or at least in every example that I recall - which admittedly may not be quite the same :D ), the folks on the ground were doing, in her own description of their actions, a pretty much outstanding job. I felt the irony escaped her.

vsvo
02-17-2006, 13:56
A Washington Post reporter (IIRC, Dana Priest) wrote a book, the title of which escapes me at the moment, wherein she was making a similar case to Kaplan's re: our imperialist ambitions.

Is it The Mission (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393325504/sr=8-1/qid=1140206555/ref=sr_1_1/102-6595978-8931369?%5Fencoding=UTF8)?

Mac
02-18-2006, 01:12
Mr. Kaplan spent some time with my CAT-A when we were in Lamu, Kenya. This was after his time in 'Stan and, I believe, the Phillipines. Ill give him credit. He is a sharp, very perceptive guy. I didnt talk much with him. My team was busy doing the hand off from the team we were replacing, and he was pretty much gone after they exfilled. I thought he was a journalist, and my natural distrust of them had me keep my distance. He did have the understanding of what we were trying to accomplish with our mission.
He does not pull punches, and although I dont agree with all he says, I do respect that. I appriciate his loyalty to SOF and the mission they carry out. He does seem to have an intense dislike of "Big Army" and their misunderstanding of SOF and the integration thereof. Not being an SF trooper, and speaking only from the small CA slice of the pie, I understand where that comes from (having had a Battalion Commander from the Eight-Duece treat my attached CAT-A much like an case of the clap). Maybe that was from us being CA, maybe from being Reservists, maybe both. I dont know. But, we accomplished more integrating with them by knowing our jobs, being tactically proficient and showing them what we brought to the table. By the time our time together was over, they may not have liked us, but at least they understood we could help them, and we accomplished the mission.
and, to those who read the book, just a post script...CPT. Stacys high and tight did grow out, I look ridiculous in beach shorts, and we got a lot of projects out the door on Lamu and surrounding areas.

stone
02-18-2006, 09:29
Interesting place Lamu.

kwu
02-22-2006, 14:33
I found one of Kaplan's conclusions really interesting and am surprised no one has brought it up yet, and that is the inclusion of women into SF and possibly onto teams. thoughts?

The Reaper
02-22-2006, 14:35
I found one of Kaplan's conclusions really interesting and am surprised no one has brought it up yet, and that is the inclusion of women into SF and possibly onto teams. thoughts?

kwu:

Are you reading here, or just posting trolling bait?

Use the search button before posting again.

This is not a request.

TR

kwu
02-22-2006, 14:39
I just came onto this thread and am genuinely interested in the topic, having recently read this book. i have no stand one way or the other and did not intend to inflame anyone. if the topic has been covered before, i apologize.

The Reaper
02-22-2006, 14:48
I just came onto this thread and am genuinely interested in the topic, having recently read this book. i have no stand one way or the other and did not intend to inflame anyone. if the topic has been covered before, i apologize.

Again, you are a guest and are new here, you should be reading and lurking with your SA turned up to max.

There is no excuse for posting on contentious topics that have been flogged to death before, especially since you were warned already earlier today.

Search before posting again, or find a site more tolerant of the SA deficient.

TR

Cincinnatus
02-23-2006, 14:41
Is it The Mission (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393325504/sr=8-1/qid=1140206555/ref=sr_1_1/102-6595978-8931369?%5Fencoding=UTF8)?

That's it. Decent book, but I think she failed to make the case for perhaps her most important premise (i.e., that the military is usurping the foreign policy role traditionally held by the State Dept. [my interpretation]). Also, a little frustrating as she had incredible access to sources (e.g., traveled w/ Zinni for awhile, IIRC, spent some time with an A team in A'stan, did an in depth interview with an Albanian American woman who served as an interpreter in the Balkans) that few ever have, but failed, IMO, to take advantage of the opportunities.

tk27
03-02-2006, 10:04
Robert Kaplan's latest op-ed:
We Can't Force Democracy: Creating Normality Is the Real Mideast Challenge, Washington Post, Thursday, March 2, 2006; Page A21 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030101937.html)

Interview:
Live with TAE: Robert Kaplan, The American Enterprise, January/February 2006. (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.18884/article_detail.asp)

Speech at John Hopkins Aplied Physics Lab Rethinking the Future Nature of Competition & Conflict Seminar Series. October 13, 2005. Audio and Video format available at bottom of page. (http://www.jhuapl.edu/POW/rethinking/video.cfm)
Seminars for download also by Thomas P.M. Barnett, BG Victor N. Corpus, Armed Forces of the Philippines (ret’d), Theresa Whelan Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for African Affairs, Capt. Nate Fick USMC ret'd, and Dr. Amory Lovins.


As you can tell I am a big Robert Kaplan fan.

hoot72
12-04-2006, 06:39
I have alot of time for Kaplan's articles. The man, in my opinion has a deeper understanding not only of the environment but also the reasons why many a time failures of the past have haunted the Southern Philippines and also has a good feel for public sentiments in the area.

I live across in North Borneo, a 12-14 hour ferry ride across from Sandakan to Zambonga and I know much of what Kaplan has touched on is spot on...the mistakes local authorities have made and the difference SF have made to the lives and community.

I have not, read an article to well organized and thought out that includes an understanding of the local community, their social and health problems as well as the positives that we continue to see.

Its just a crying shame the Philippine government has not, for the last two decades not been able to forsee the same problems from the SF point of view or Kaplan for that matter and tried to diffuse the situation in other manners that benefit the community, creates jobs and helps develop tourism, one of the major causes for the rise of the Abu Syaff...a fundamental lack of any of the above, as well as a lack of recognition of Sultan of Sulu claims to a monarchy that exceeds the history of the current Filipino government or the country we know as the Philippines..

Its been awfully quiet of late as far as clashes and incidents in the news in relation to activities carried out by the abu syaff but this could be due to the negotiations this year that have gone on in kuala lumpur between the muslims and the government, possibly.

I was in Semporna, 45 minutes away from Sipadan Island when they made the daring kidnapping and hostage taking exercise and it was no surprise..it was going to happen, eventually. The only stupid thing to come out of it was the lack of attention or care paid by the Malaysian Goverment to the warnings that something like this was possible.....

Kaplan, truely does read situations well.

Team Sergeant
12-04-2006, 17:50
Its just a crying shame the Philippine government has not, for the last two decades not been able to forsee the same problems from the SF point of view or Kaplan for that matter and tried to diffuse the situation in other manners that benefit the community, creates jobs and helps develop tourism, one of the major causes for the rise of the Abu Syaff...a fundamental lack of any of the above, as well as a lack of recognition of Sultan of Sulu claims to a monarchy that exceeds the history of the current Filipino government or the country we know as the Philippines..



I beg to differ.....

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Pool/1644/ramos.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Special_Forces_Regiment_(Airborne)

"Philippine President" Fidel Valdez Ramos is also a graduate of the US Army Special Forces course.

If you are going to coutinue to post here make sure your information is collected from reliable sources.:rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

hoot72
12-04-2006, 20:38
I beg to differ.....

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Pool/1644/ramos.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Special_Forces_Regiment_(Airborne)

"Philippine President" Fidel Valdez Ramos is also a graduate of the US Army Special Forces course.

If you are going to coutinue to post here make sure your information is collected from reliable sources.:rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

I must disagree with you. Ramos was no better than any of his predecessors, and that also includes the current president. Time and time again, we hear corruption, corruption and more corruotion. Its a never ending saga with filipino politicis. He did no better, sorry to say.

Graduating from the US Army SF course does not make a foreign graduate an example for others to follow. It was during his tenure that tensions between the muslims and christians increased in the south, with hundreds of kidnappings, torture accusations by both sides and general political mess that was the prelude to an increase in activities, funding and training of the Abu Syaaf.

I dont see any improvement in the filipino economoy or social status of the people in general since the Marco's family were removed.

What I had stated was an opinon, something I was under the impression I was allowed to give, just like other members of this forum.

My point about what the SF and Kaplan had seen going wrong was the reasons why activities to rebuild communities, roads, infrastructure, etc etc was probably a large part of the reason why we see peace now and a unilateral cease fire and peace negotiations in Kuala Lumpur.

Something, the filipino army, even under Ramos, failed to do.

Team Sergeant
12-05-2006, 09:11
I must disagree with you. Ramos was no better than any of his predecessors, and that also includes the current president. Time and time again, we hear corruption, corruption and more corruotion. Its a never ending saga with filipino politicis. He did no better, sorry to say.

Graduating from the US Army SF course does not make a foreign graduate an example for others to follow. It was during his tenure that tensions between the muslims and christians increased in the south, with hundreds of kidnappings, torture accusations by both sides and general political mess that was the prelude to an increase in activities, funding and training of the Abu Syaaf.

I dont see any improvement in the filipino economoy or social status of the people in general since the Marco's family were removed.

What I had stated was an opinon, something I was under the impression I was allowed to give, just like other members of this forum.

My point about what the SF and Kaplan had seen going wrong was the reasons why activities to rebuild communities, roads, infrastructure, etc etc was probably a large part of the reason why we see peace now and a unilateral cease fire and peace negotiations in Kuala Lumpur.

Something, the filipino army, even under Ramos, failed to do.

I've spent some time there and I will tell you that Ramos did look at some of the issues with his SF experience and training. I was there in 92 and he even took some time to come and visit us and check on some of the projects we were involved in, a few were civil affairs projects.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion though some are not worth the paper they are printed on. Sort of like your take on graduating from the US Army Special Forces course does not make a graduate an example for others to follow. You’ve never been through the course yet you feel compelled to comment on us and our training. You didn’t know that about President Ramos did you? You had no earthly idea did you? Stung a little huh?

Graduating from the US Army SF course does not make a foreign graduate an example for others to follow. It was during his tenure that tensions between the muslims and christians increased in the south, with hundreds of kidnappings, torture accusations by both sides and general political mess that was the prelude to an increase in activities, funding and training of the Abu Syaaf.


You see when most of us discuss our opinions on this board most have been to all of the places we’re discussing. We’ve worked along side the people, ate with them, bled with them and usually by the time we leave we’ve made a positive impact on the people. It’s called nation building but I’m guessing you’ve never heard of that either. What we don’t do is whine or snivel about how bad it is and point fingers just because we read something some left wing media put in print.

Right now you sound like every tourist I've ever met in a foreign country, complain, whine and snivel if everything does not go your way. And have never lent a hand to help, just pointing fingers.

It was during his tenure that tensions between the muslims and christians increased in the south

You again have no idea why do you? Might I suggest more reading on the subject?

Do us a favor, next time you feel the urge to write lets hear about the positive impact you made on a foreign country or its people. I don’t expect you to run off at the mouth about the patrols you’ve been on in dangerous and contested (non-permissive) areas. Just tell us about the wells you’ve help dig, the schools you’ve help build, the water buffaloes you’ve vaccinated or the medical treatment you have given to the people free of charge. You see most of us have accomplished all those things, and more, for people we hardly know.

TS

hoot72
12-05-2006, 20:39
I've spent some time there and I will tell you that Ramos did look at some of the issues with his SF experience and training. I was there in 92 and he even took some time to come and visit us and check on some of the projects we were involved in, a few were civil affairs projects.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion though some are not worth the paper they are printed on. Sort of like your take on graduating from the US Army Special Forces course does not make a graduate an example for others to follow. You’ve never been through the course yet you feel compelled to comment on us and our training. You didn’t know that about President Ramos did you? You had no earthly idea did you? Stung a little huh?




You see when most of us discuss our opinions on this board most have been to all of the places we’re discussing. We’ve worked along side the people, ate with them, bled with them and usually by the time we leave we’ve made a positive impact on the people. It’s called nation building but I’m guessing you’ve never heard of that either. What we don’t do is whine or snivel about how bad it is and point fingers just because we read something some left wing media put in print.

Right now you sound like every tourist I've ever met in a foreign country, complain, whine and snivel if everything does not go your way. And have never lent a hand to help, just pointing fingers.



You again have no idea why do you? Might I suggest more reading on the subject?

Do us a favor, next time you feel the urge to write lets hear about the positive impact you made on a foreign country or its people. I don’t expect you to run off at the mouth about the patrols you’ve been on in dangerous and contested (non-permissive) areas. Just tell us about the wells you’ve help dig, the schools you’ve help build, the water buffaloes you’ve vaccinated or the medical treatment you have given to the people free of charge. You see most of us have accomplished all those things, and more, for people we hardly know.

TS


Why are you making this a personal issue?

Are you saying every individual who has done an SF course has gone on to do good things and done the SF proud (be it foreign nationals from foreign armed forces) or have been of sound characters? I could list one example. Idema.

I have not criticized the SF or even hinted that the SF have failed in the philippines. You are coming out with your own conclusions on what I have said and twisting it, which is not very fair.

You may have been in the Philippines in 92 but you have your opinion and I have mine. I live in the area and visit frequently and yes, I do communicate with the locals and am quite familiar with what has been going on and what continues to go on in Southern Philiipines and Sabah in Malaysia because this is the territory I live in and have been living in since 1972! I was friggin born here for godsakes.

Ramos: You may think highly of the man but yes, granted he did do some re-construction work during his time in the military and president, but the facts are that during his tenure as president, fighting escalated and we saw a resurgent Abu Syaff that was far more active than ever before, even in the mid 70's and early 80's. Blame it on his commmanders. Blame it on the Philippine army. Whatever it is, both sides failed to see eye to eye and we saw an escalation of fighting.

I dont think I need to apologize for this. I have said nothing wrong and my opinions are based on my own experinces.

Team Sergeant
12-05-2006, 21:11
Why are you making this a personal issue?

Are you saying every individual who has done an SF course has gone on to do good things and done the SF proud (be it foreign nationals from foreign armed forces) or have been of sound characters? I could list one example. Idema.

I have not criticized the SF or even hinted that the SF have failed in the philippines. You are coming out with your own conclusions on what I have said and twisting it, which is not very fair.

You may have been in the Philippines in 92 but you have your opinion and I have mine. I live in the area and visit frequently and yes, I do communicate with the locals and am quite familiar with what has been going on and what continues to go on in Southern Philiipines and Sabah in Malaysia because this is the territory I live in and have been living in since 1972! I was friggin born here for godsakes.

Ramos: You may think highly of the man but yes, granted he did do some re-construction work during his time in the military and president, but the facts are that during his tenure as president, fighting escalated and we saw a resurgent Abu Syaff that was far more active than ever before, even in the mid 70's and early 80's. Blame it on his commmanders. Blame it on the Philippine army. Whatever it is, both sides failed to see eye to eye and we saw an escalation of fighting.

I dont think I need to apologize for this. I have said nothing wrong and my opinions are based on my own experinces.

So now you know idema? Amazing!

Twisting? You have me at a loss.
Escalation of fighting is usually for a reason, in this case you still do not know why.
You need not apologize, I was not aware I asked for an apology?

If you have followed some of the other threads you would realize few muslims and anyone else get along, anywhere.

TS

hoot72
12-06-2006, 03:32
I do agree. Muslims, rarely seem to get along, anywhere with anyone else...its their one big problem which they have yet to realize. They expect everyone to respect them and their religion and their point of view on how to live, but fail to realize it works both ways....

Martin
12-06-2006, 12:07
I read this a few days ago, maybe it is of interest, Waging Peace in the Philippines (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/issues/2006/december/philippines.php). Certainly a complex situation.