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NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 15:28
Paden charged with misdemeanor vehicular homicide during pursuit
By Bill Wilson
GREAT BEND - Barton County Sheriff's Deputy David Paden was charged Wednesday with misdemeanor vehicular homicide in the Sept. 1, 2003, death of a Great Bend man during a police pursuit.

Sheriff Buck Causey and county officials took no immediate administrative action against Paden, an 11-year sheriff's deputy, after Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline filed the charges in Barton County District Court.

Paden will make his first appearance at 9 a.m. Feb. 27 in Barton County District Court. He's charged with unintentionally killing Brian K. Frenzl, 40, of Great Bend. Frenzl's motorcycle slammed into the front of Paden's patrol car as the deputy made a U-turn on U.S. 281.

Paden remains on road patrol, Causey said at 3 p.m. Wednesday.

"Obviously, he has a right to the legal process," the sheriff said. "It wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment or become involved while that legal process is being carried out."

But during an interview an hour later, Causey said he "had some decisions to make" on Paden's status with the department.

"That's not to say, you understand, that he'll still be on the road today, tonight or tomorrow," Causey said in the second call. "All I was saying was that as we speak, he's still on the road."

Paden also was charged Wednesday with operating a motor vehicle with unlawful tinting and making an unlawful U turn.

Vehicular homicide is a misdemeanor with a fine up to $2,500 and up to a year in jail. Paden faces up to a month in a jail and a $500 fine on the tinting charge and a $60 fine for the illegal U-turn.

"Oh, thank you, God," said Frenzl's girlfriend, Rita Budig, about the filings.

She declined further comment on the advice of her attorney.

Employment options

Causey's initial decision to leave Paden on the road is unusual, but not unprecedented, said several law enforcement officials.

"I think there would be a whole lot (of reason), without all the details of this case, to at least take the officer off the street until the situation is resolved," Hutchinson Police Chief Dick Heitschmidt said.

Locally, a similar arrest would "have several options with it," he said.

"At the very least, you could bring the officer inside and do a desk job and not suspend them with pay," he said. "It very easily could be a suspend-with-pay situation."

Darrell Wilson, the president of the Kansas Sheriff's Association, agreed but said similar incidents are handled differently by departments.

"It's the classic judgment call," Wilson said. "If you felt like his credibility and the credibility of your department wouldn't be hindered, you could leave him on the street. If you or the sheriff, or the chief or the city manager or whoever feel like it is, then you take him off."

Interim Barton County Administrator Richard Boeck-man said the county commission won't meet for two weeks, so he would "defer to the sheriff on what he decides to do with Officer Paden," he said.

Paden's patrol car

An investigation in September by several Kansas Highway Patrol troopers into Frenzl's death found that Paden's patrol car was illegally tinted and improperly retrofitted to accommodate the dog in his K-9 unit.

As a result, investigators noted, Paden would have been forced to lean out the driver's window to avoid obstructions and see Frenzl's motorcycle coming from behind.

Causey said Wednesday the car was illegally tinted at the factory, and then the infraction was compounded when it was further tinted for the dog.

"It was certainly darker than the law allows," Causey said.

Wilson said the car's condition "shouldn't have been a factor in the accident."

"It's hard to deny the deputy made a mistake," Wilson said. "And to say that because of the windows and the dog's cage he couldn't see out is malarkey. If a motorcycle's coming at you at 50 mph or whatever and it's 100 yards away and you can't see out the side window, it's a rear view mirror thing for the driver."

Paden's record

The Frenzl accident was the fourth chase-related wreck involving Paden in the last two years.

Adam Mayers, 16, died Jan. 5, 2002, after his truck slammed into a telephone pole during a high-speed chase initiated by Paden.

Brian Case was injured in a March 2002 motorcycle accident after a chase that included Paden.

And Jeffrey Wayne Chapman, 22, of Hutchinson, was treated and released Oct. 29, 2003, after his car struck a tree at 8th and Hubbard in Great Bend after a five-block chase initiated by Paden.

The investigation

Charges were filed following an investigation by the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and the Kansas Highway Patrol.

That investigation came after Barton County Attorney Rick Scheuffler referred the case to the AG in November, citing a possible conflict of interest.

Assistant Attorney General Stephen Maxwell will prosecute the case.

Reporter Bill Wilson can be reached at bwilson@hutchnews.com or by calling (620) 694-5700, ext. 314.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 15:30
I have been seeing stories about chases more and more on the news, and many criticizing the policies. I have some thoughts, but my thinking has changed over the years. Of course, when I was the victim of persecution by the unjustice system, the policy was simple - You run you get chased until caught.

Anybody want to discuss this?

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 15:45
The LEOs I used to work for in my political consulting days told me that most PDs in this area have policies against unbridled high-speed chases because they don't want bystanders to get hurt. They use a tag-team system where cars drop on and off of the fleeing suspect and helos do most of the chasing, IIRC.

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 18:17
I personally dont think high-speed chases are worth it. I cant recall the numbers but I heard/read one time the majority of high speed chases are the result of traffic violations committed by drivers with suspended licenses.

I just dont see the capture of a driver with a suspended license being worth any bystanders life, but thats just me.

The Reaper
03-03-2004, 18:26
You stop chasing them and you can watch the stolen car and associated crime rate go through the roof.

I lived through that in Tampa, which went from like, #43 or so in GTA to #1 in three years.

They need pursuit policies, to chase intelligently, and to fire idiots like this. The media also needs to quit televising chases like they are some big game.

Killing a biker is viewed as less sensitive than hitting a stray dog. If you unjustifiably kill an innocent biker, you should go to jail.

OTOH, if you refuse to stop, you get what is coming to you.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 18:29
The LEOs are going to think I have it out for them aren't they?

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 18:37
You don't???

I figured this was some sort of compensation mechanism for your jealousy and admiration of your brother. Did he kick your A$$ to many times growing up or something? ;) LOL

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 18:45
I am with Reaper on this issue. You can't prevent them from chasing the criminals. Don't fall victim to the media's focus on rare events and then try to make policy as if that were the norm.


AS to this guy, if he broke the traffic laws that are enforced when a cop is chasing someone.... prosecute him for his negligence.

Those other three inflammatory incidences listed in that rag article have nothing to do with this instance. They are listed to taint the cop... none of those were his fault and should be brought up against him.

If you anyone feels otherwise, my guess is that you are the type person who might be influenced into trying to blame the gun verses the person who shoots it on gun control issues. All the Libs would have to do is keep running Colombine stories over and over. Individual responsiblity seems to be an idea that noone wants to address anymore. :(

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 18:47
TR:

Maybe I should clarify my position. I am not opposed to chases, I am however opposed to chases at high speed. If a person runs they get what comes to them if they crash.

I had the displeasure of cutting(extricating) a SC state trooper's body out of his cruiser about 3 years ago after skidding off the interstate and striking an oak tree with the passenger side of his Crown Vic at 120mph while chasing a guy with a broken tail light. The vehicle struck the tree about 5 feet from the ground and was suspended there until I removed it. I will see if I can find the pics of his cruiser tomorrow at the office. I have never seen a car wrap around a tree like that.

About 8 years ago another Trooper struck and killed a 9 year old girl and her mother while chasing someone who stole gas from a convenience store. The trooper's estimated speed at impact was 85 mph. This was through a small mill town. The trooper was aquitted of vehicular manslaughter

All that to say there really should be a more defined policy for chases rather than the chase until caught, or someone dies method.

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 18:52
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
...Those other three inflammatory incidences listed in that rag article have nothing to do with this instance. They are listed to taint the cop... none of those were his fault and should be brought up against him.

If you anyone feels otherwise, my guess is that you are the type person who might be influenced into trying to blame the gun verses the person who shoots it on gun control issues. All the Libs would have to do is keep running Colombine stories over and over. Individual responsiblity seems to be an idea that noone wants to address anymore. :(

For me the issue is not individual responsibility but a lack of reasonable protocol for chases. I dont have a magic number so dont ask me to provide one.

And no I dont think, "its the gun's fault" mentality so dont go there. Dont confuse the issues.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 18:53
Surgcric-
You name two horrific instances. In one, a trooper was traveling at to high a rate of speed for his circumstances and was killed. It was his fault. Tragic.... a waste... but still his fault.

The other is tragic but again the trooper was following at a higher rate of speed than was considered safe. I am in favor of protecting those that serve from frivolous lawsuits... immunity for any action I am not.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the cops should chase at the maximum speed possible for their vehicle in all instances. It shoudl be left to the judgement of TRAINED officers as to its feasibility. Maybe we have a training problem that needs to be addressed. Also, guidelines should be set and reevavluated constantly using advances in technology and equipment available to apprehend these dirt bags.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 18:57
Anybody have any numbers?

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 19:01
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
...It shoudl be left to the judgement of TRAINED officers as to its feasibility. Maybe we have a training problem that needs to be addressed. Also, guidelines should be set and reevavluated constantly using advances in technology and equipment available to apprehend these dirt bags.

Its not a lack of training, its a lack of protocol. You cannot expect the LEO directly involved in the chase to make that judgement. In most instances he will continue out of pure adrenaline.

Its someone sitting down and saying, "this is too fast for this area." I also think the shift officer, zone fficer, etc should have the authority to call it off. Thats all.

I will call SLED tomorrow and get some if you would like.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 19:11
I agree with you James. The guidelines should be developed before hand. The point about shift supervisors,etc is a good one. In my little bros dept., that is exactly who has to authorize ANY high speed chase.

But the policy of no chasing or making public what the maximum speeds that are allowed will only increase the probability for fleeing to occur.


NDD-
Statistics only prove what you want them too. You know that. You will never get a true picture of the total number of chases, etc because a lot of the successful ones go unreported. You will generally only see statistics kept on either the most severe/highest speed ones that make the news or the ones in which accidents take place.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 19:15
One point about not expecting officers to remain controlled and professional. WE expect 18-22 year old marines to enter areas under fire from the enemy yet still retain enough composure to not indescriminantly kill every civilian and bad guy in site. That is because of their training level... We should give cops the same level of training for auto chases.

I don't think it is that difficult a thing to teach. FWIW, I would think a soldier being shot at is experiencing a lot more of an adrenaline rush than a cop who wants to drive fast.

Thoughts?

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 19:16
Here is the result of one...

2001 Nissan 300zx got sandwiched between two 18-wheelers occupants are still in the vehicle.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 19:18
Crip,
I agree with your post. But training is always an issue. Driving, like shooting, is a perishable skill. I'm talking about DRIVING, not driving. I am a trainer at times and I run 3-4 driving courses a year. I have to schedule two days up front to get me and the AIs in shape to teach the course, and we bring in somebody current to check us out because we don't do it every day. I go as a student. And that's for the basic course.

There's no way that the administrators of these Departments, especially the smaller ones, are sending their guys to Scotti or that two or three times a year. And I would imagine when they do train, it is because it is forced on them and they get the lowest bidder.

Most of these things, including the militarization, I blame on administrators. I pulled that article off of a primarily LEO board. What I thought was interesting was the first comment was "That's SHIT!" Not comments such as those we have here.

I'm all for catching bad guys. But I'm like you "At what price?" I would guess a lot of times, a valid assumption would be "Well yeah, I was going to pull him over for that tailight, but he ran. How do I know he didn't just kill somebody?"

I would guess most Departments don't have access to helos. So they chase or let them go. I don't know, I just thought it was worth discussing. It would be interesting to see the stats.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 19:24
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
[B]
[QUOTE]WE expect 18-22 year old marines to enter areas under fire from the enemy yet still retain enough composure to not indescriminantly kill every civilian and bad guy in site.

Just the opposite. We expect them to destroy ever bad guy they see and try to keep the collateral to a minimum.

I don't think it is that difficult a thing to teach. FWIW, I would think a soldier being shot at is experiencing a lot more of an adrenaline rush than a cop who wants to drive fast.

Its actually pretty close to the same if you're going fast enough and you can't tell if the shooting is directed specifically at you. At least to me.

The Reaper
03-03-2004, 19:25
Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Here is the result of one...

2001 Nissan 300zx got sandwiched between two 18-wheelers occupants are still in the vehicle.

See the arm hanging out, roger that part.

Good trick though, since Nissan 300ZX production ended in 1996.

TR

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 19:36
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
...I don't think it is that difficult a thing to teach. FWIW, I would think a soldier being shot at is experiencing a lot more of an adrenaline rush than a cop who wants to drive fast.

Thoughts?

I think you should ride in a cruiser at 120mph while weaving in and out of traffic and record where your mind is at the time.

I would also believe you cant compare target discrimination and to high speed pursuit. I am sure if you ask the officers who have engaged in chases with poor outcomes they would tell they would have never guessed the outcome.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 19:36
Yeah.. you got him TR. Caught that liberal media propagandist in his web of lies. Altering photos...shame shame ;) LOL Just kidding James.


NDD- There is a big difference in your driving example and cop chases... in the cop example they are the ones doing the chasing and there is nobody shooting at them or trying to hit them with a RPG!! LOL Not an apples to apples comparison in adrenaline rush I wouldn't think.

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 19:37
Originally posted by The Reaper
...Good trick though, since Nissan 300ZX production ended in 1996...TR

Sorry about that. The pic was stolen from the EMS computer here and the folder was titled 2001 300zx high speed chase.

Now that I have looked though all of the pics of it is not even of a 300zx.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 19:45
For some reason you guys seem to think that these officers have no choice or control in how fast their vehicle are traveling. Its.. "well you put yourself in the car at 120 mph in a schoolzone and see how much adrenaline is running through you" type arguments that keep being proposed. Noone is saying that they must catch EVERY vehicle that runs. IF they feel that the dirtbag can be followed safely due to the circumstances... then follow him. If you are doing 120 in a nursery parking lot- stop.

That was not the issue... The cop should slow down if warranted because nobody is forcing him to chase. If you can't make the case in your head that doing 120mph when around any traffic or on a two lane road is dangerous, then you are a friggin idiot and should not be a cop. I am not saying they should be able to do whatever they can to push their cars to the limit just to catch someone.
Does anyone feel that the cop is not the one who is in control of his vehicle at all times during a chase??? PLease explain this idea if you do. It baffles me to think that we should strip the responsiblity away from all cops because a few are friggin idiots.

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 19:45
300's dont have 4 doors

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 19:47
NDD- There is a big difference in your driving example and cop chases... in the cop example they are the ones doing the chasing and there is nobody shooting at them or trying to hit them with a RPG!! LOL Not an apples to apples comparison in adrenaline rush I wouldn't think.

You misunderstand. I have both driven VERY fast and been in the area of shooting going on very near. The rush I got in both cases was similar. I have also had that rush jumping at night and having a problem with the kit.

However, when you KNOW they are shooting at you, as an individual, there is no comparison. I've had that happen as well and I don't like it at all.

Smokin Joe
03-03-2004, 20:15
Adernaline it is the same no matter if you are being shot at, driving in a high speed chase, or in a knock down drag out fight. Additionally I know you have all heard of the OODA loop?

Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act

Its the process your brain goes through when the P factor goes up.

You guys have experienced it even if you have never heard of it. It is a physiological process. --So I've read.

We all know what happens when adernaline dumps into your viens, your blood pressure goes up, you get tunnel vision, and your fine motor skills go to crap, all while your trying to decide on what to do next.

As you guys know you can train through this. The first time you did a dynamic entry in a training envirnoment you may have experienced the OODA loop and an adernaline rush. The more dynamic entries you did and the more combat training you got the more confident you became in this skill, and you learned to work through the OODA loop and the adernaline dump. So now you can breach a door throw a flashbang, kill all the bad guys inside, save the hostages, all while sippin a beer. You can do this because of the thousands of hours you spent on the range and in training.

Now let me tell you how much training an average cop gets in prusuit driving its about 40 hours in the basic academy, and thats it for a 20 + year career.

See a problem?

Also NDD I think one of the reasons why you are seeing so much on prusuits now days is b/c the media has turned them into a LIVE ACTION, LATE BREAKING, blah, blah, blah....basically cat chase and everyone wants to see if the guy gets caught. Additionally alot of agencies are adopting a "NO PRUSUIT" policy so unless you KNOW that the guy you are chasing is wanted for a serious or violent crime they get a free pass. B/C of this like TR said the bad guys learn real quick that they can run and you won't chase.

I agree you should risk the lives of every individual out there to chase down the broken tail light w/ a suspended DL. But you also can't let every Tom, Dick, and Harry who decides to run go.

Its a tough call on who do you chase and who do you not. Especially tough call when all of a sudden the guy takes of on you. You mind automatically thinks sh*t this guy just killed someone, I CANNOT let him get away.

The Reaper
03-03-2004, 20:29
Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Sorry about that. The pic was stolen from the EMS computer here and the folder was titled 2001 300zx high speed chase.

Wonder what else is wrong with it?

I have exceeded 120 by a good bit when I was younger and dumber, broke 125 on a bike, and been shot at a few times.

As Sir Winston Churchill said, "Nothing is so exhilarating in life as to be shot at with no result."

While looking the exact quote up, I also found these, which are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but are good words, nonetheless.

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations"
- Winston Churchill: My Early Life (1930) ch. 9.

"Never in the face of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few."
- Winston Churchill

"In Critical and baffling situations, it is always best to return to first principle and simple action"
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

“it so often happens that, when men are convinced that they have to die, a desire to bear themselves well and to leave life’s stage with dignity conquers all other sensations.”
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

"I have never accepted what many people have kindly said, namely that I inspired the Nation. It was the nation and the race dwelling around the globe that had the lion heart. I had the luck to be called upon to give the roar"
- Sir Winston Churchill, Speech Nov. 1954.

"There is at least one thing worse than fighting with allies – And that is to fight without them"
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

"The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it."
- Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the best form of the worst type of government"
- Winston Churchill

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. "
- Winston Churchill

"Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities, because it is the quality that guarantees all others"
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

"A prisoner of war is a man who tries to kill you and fails, and then asks you not to kill him."
- Sir Winston S. Churchill, 1952. (The Observer)

No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account.
- Winston Churchill

"Arm yourselves, and be ye men of valor, and be in readiness for the conflict; for it is better for us to perish in battle than to look upon the outrage of our nation and our altar."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
-Winston Churchill

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

"You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terrors. Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

"To have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. Now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all!...Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill (after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor)

"Britain and France had to choose between war and dishonor. They chose dishonor."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

"Sure I am this day we are masters of our fate, that the task which has been set before us is not above our strength; that its pangs and toils are not beyond our endurance. As long as we have faith in our own cause and an unconquerable will to win, victory will not be denied us."
- Winston Churchill

"We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and oceans. We shall fight with growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender."
- Winston Churchill

"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."
- Winston Churchill

I never worry about action, but only inaction.
- Winston Churchill

I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me.
- Winston Churchill

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
- Winston Churchill

Socialism is like a dream. Sooner or later you wake up to reality.
- Winston Churchill

Socialists think profits are a vice; I consider losses the real vice.
- Winston Churchill

Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.
- Winston Churchill

This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill

You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves.
-Winston Churchill

Surgicalcric
03-03-2004, 20:42
Originally posted by The Reaper
...While looking the exact quote up, I also found these, which are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but are good words, nonetheless...

HIJACKED :D

AngelsSix
03-03-2004, 22:49
Funny how we were discussing this very topic today in class. We are currently working on the subject of MVL (Motor Vehicle Law) and the subject of high speed chases came up.
Okay, I could not read through all the thread here, but let me say this: most departments (not all) have what we call pursuit or apprehension policies. Depending on the agencies policy determines whether you will chase or not. Also, above certain speeds and through certain areas, the ranking officer MAY CALL OFF THE CHASE AT ANY TIME. The officer INITIATING the pursuit has to use some some discression (sp?) as to whether it is safe for him or her to continue.
Here's my take on it: depending on the violation, if you have a good description of the vehicle, occupants and a tag number, why chase the dude?? He wants you to chase him, most of those out in LA are done on purpose, with the offenders knowing that they will be on t.v.
This is why helicopters are great tools. We can also use cameras (traffic cams) to aid us. We will get the guy eventually. So maybe he gets away today, we will get him sooner or later, count on it.;)

Guy
03-04-2004, 07:50
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Adernaline it is the same no matter if you are being shot at, driving in a high speed chase, or in a knock down drag out fight. Additionally I know you have all heard of the OODA loop?

Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act

Its the process your brain goes through when the P factor goes up.

You guys have experienced it even if you have never heard of it. It is a physiological process. --So I've read.

There is a BIG difference between driving fast and being shot at!

When I'm at work. I drive fast ALL of time because speed is security. The adrenaline is barely noticable.

Now being shot at...rocketed or mortored! The adrenaline rush went thru the roof!:p

Reading about it is one thing...well, you know the rest.

Smokin Joe
03-04-2004, 08:27
Originally posted by Guy
There is a BIG difference between driving fast and being shot at!

When I'm at work. I drive fast ALL of time because speed is security. The adrenaline is barely noticable.

Now being shot at...rocketed or mortored! The adrenaline rush went thru the roof!:p

Reading about it is one thing...well, you know the rest.

My mistake Guy, I miss wrote last night and was unclear in my orginial post.

What I should have said is that your body reacts the same way to adernaline. Now based on what is happening at the time depends on how much adernaline you get.

I completely agree chasing someone and being shot are to totally different situations. BUT the bodies reaction to the adernaline dump is the same.

I'm like you I drive fast all the time while at work, I also experience little to no adernaline. However if you or I were trying to conduct a normal traffic stop then all of a sudden someone runs (either in the car or on foot) you get an adernaline dump.

Is it the same amount as being shot at honestly I don't know I have only been shot at twice, and the incidents happened so quickly that all I could do was go to cover, and the threat left the sceen. So the incidents were over very quickly. I'm sure you have alot more experience when it comes to being shot at, so you know a hell of alot more about what your body does under these circumstances. From my limited experiences my body reacted the same way. Blood pressure went up, I started to get tunnel vision, and I had little to-no-finite motor skills.

Last night I was trying to point out the fact that in a high stressful situation your body re-acts a certain way, unless you have trained yourself otherwise.

HSLD door kickin individuals have trained themselves to act a certain way, because all of the time and training they have put into there chosen profession.

Your average Cop does not have the same amount of time and training vested (in pursuit driving in this case) to properly train through your bodies natural reaction to a stressful situation.

NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2004, 09:51
Well, here's my opinion, as if anybody cares.

1. We need to get the bad guys or there will be a crime wave like Reaper said.

2. Need to use more technology. The chases I see are a lot of times stolen cars. GPS, etc., should cause such a drop in insurance rates as to pay for the service.

3. More training for officers. Back when I was younger, the Texas Hiwghway Patrol had specialists. Trans Ams and Cobras, specially trained officers. Kind of Road Warrior, but it worked.

4. Make a law, you don't pull over for an emergency vehicle - 2 years no license. 2nd - 5 years, 3rd - take the bus for life.

5. You run from the law, even if you didn't do anything else, 5 years minimum mandatory.

6. Officer Billy Bob Jumpback from Podunk PD don't get to chase anybody. Only those Depts., with the training and resources to do so. The Coperators.

7. That's where I would start.

8. I agree with no more tv coverage also.

As for the case above, somebody needs to look very hard at the whole case. There's a pattern of behavior there. May be the officer, but also may be the administration or the environment or even the perpetrators. But there is a problem there.

Guy
03-04-2004, 11:17
NDD:

I think you are being too harsh on some of your opinions. Everyone was young once and did stupid shit...should that constitute a punishment so severe that one cannot recover from?

Joe:
Comparing the LE organization to SpecOps is like comparing apples to oranges.

Someone once said:

Dude...in a calm environment you SUCK! Put your ass in a stressful situation you thrive!:D

Roguish Lawyer
03-04-2004, 11:19
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
4. Make a law, you don't pull over for an emergency vehicle - 2 years no license. 2nd - 5 years, 3rd - take the bus for life.

5. You run from the law, even if you didn't do anything else, 5 years minimum mandatory.

Don't mess with Texas! LOL

Roguish Lawyer
03-04-2004, 11:31
Originally posted by The Reaper
While looking the exact quote up, I also found these, which are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but are good words, nonetheless.

Yes, thank you. I wanted to name one of my kids after him, but my wife would not allow it. LOL

Surgicalcric
03-04-2004, 12:58
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
...
4. Make a law, you don't pull over for an emergency vehicle - 2 years no license. 2nd - 5 years, 3rd - take the bus for life.

I will definately toast to that one. Something needs to be done to address this problem.

I say, if they dont pull to the RIGHT and STOP I get to push them from the roadway with the big front porch of a bumper I have on this truck. That another discussion though

Edited: I cant spell.

Smokin Joe
03-04-2004, 13:09
Originally posted by Guy
NDD:

Joe:
Comparing the LE organization to SpecOps is like comparing apples to oranges.

Someone once said:

Dude...in a calm environment you SUCK! Put your ass in a stressful situation you thrive!:D

Agreed, it was the comparison that popped into my head at the time.

I was mearly trying to show the different levels of vested time, money, and training into a certain skill. As NDD said earlier driving like shooting is a perishable skill, if you do not practice often you will lose the skill. The majority of LE organizations in my area do not provide any continuation training on prusuit DRIVING once you get out of the academy.

Noslack71
03-04-2004, 22:59
Whoever said there is no relation between SOF soldiers and cops is absolutely right. Cops, especially big city cops have nowhere near the training or assets that are lavished upon SOF.
I think if one looks at the stats, more cops are killed each year than SF. Sometimes, not often, the surviving cops get to kill the doers. There are no air strikes, no artillery, no CIA to help the cops. TV does not find the war on crime in the ghetto sexy. There are very few cops getting consulting fees on MSNBC. Right now, if you go into Borders Books, no one is rushing to buy the newest action novel by a former cop. If it is not lost, we are losing the war on crime in America and our best and brightest find it more rewarding to go off to foreign countries and fight for America. I am not making a judgement, merely stating what seems to be the facts I see.
Cops do get to go home at night, they are sued, often on a monthly basis and, almost every decision they make is second guessed by well educated lawyers, reporters and judges. Many end up in prison. Cops and dentists(go figure) suicide rates is among the highest among any group in the country. Most are high school graduates. They are never called for good news, most Americans resent them to one degree or another
SOF certainly seems like a much better and in many ways an easier deal.
Every day in the ghetto if you are doing your job you fight somebody. Getting shot at is a regular experience, it might only be a .22 or a .32 but, it'll sting a mite if it hits you.

Ockham's Razor
03-04-2004, 23:30
I'd like to vote for option 5 in NDD's Manifesto.

5 yr mandatory would be a hell of a deterent. You would have some touchy cases at first, guy running from a speeding ticket, etc etc. ACLU will whine. But, after those first arrests, and assuming the judges don't overturn them, it will sink it real quick.

18C4V
03-05-2004, 00:38
I want NDD to be the mayor of the city where I work at!!!! I like those rules.

Pursuit policies differ from dept to dept. Ours require that a supervisor acknowledge and monitor the radio. Before we got spike strips, every cop would try to get in on the pursuit. Now it's a race to spike the car.

I think the longest pursuit I was in was 45 minutes. The reason for the inital pursuit? The car was just used in a robbery. It was all over the city and ended up in the adjacent city. By the time it was over, a cop and the suspect got shot. After getting shot, the suspect ran 100 yrds and hid under a trailor. Guess who got to him first? :D

GackMan
03-05-2004, 00:49
Originally posted by 18C3V
Guess who got to him first? :D

a big mean dog?

Noslack71
03-05-2004, 07:59
NDD's ideas are brillant. If we are going to pass laws against stupidity, why start there? Cops don't have the time or resources to go after or lock up folks who are engaged in non-viloent crimes against property now (like car theft). Which criminals should we not put into prison so we can put those morons that don't pull over into prison. While they are chasing a violent bad guy, which cops should be desiginated to stop and pull over the assholes that don't get out of the way? Thank God our courts are not very busy, they can certainly handle the influx of new miscreants. Can you imagine the false arrest suits. We always felt that simply pummelling those that failed to pull over about the head, neck and shoulders was effective plus, it had the added benefit of reducing stress while educating the general public. NDD are you a closet lawyer? cause this sounds like something a starving lawyer would propose to boost his fortunes.

Team Sergeant
03-05-2004, 08:41
One additional idea. The LEO’s place a .50 sniper rifle on each pursuit helicopter. As soon as the asshole bad guy is seen running from the blue lights a .50 round penetrates the engine block. If the BG runs and attempts to “hijack” another vehicle, the sniper then places one more .50 round through the BG.

I agree with NDD, running from the police should carry a HARSH penalty. But running away and placing innocent lives in harms way is inexcusable and should carry some severe ramifications.

I do not care about “getting tough on crime,” I want to see Americans get tough on criminals instead.

Team Sergeant

Team Sergeant
03-05-2004, 08:51
Originally posted by Noslack71
nowhere near the training or assets that are lavished upon SOF.

You are killing me with this one....


I think if one looks at the stats, more cops are killed each year than SF.

I think if you check the stats you will find that a very incorrect statement.
While the LEO’s in the US number in the millions you’ll find the numbers of SF at any given moment in time is in the few thousands.

Team Sergeant

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2004, 09:00
Damn noslack,

I figured you would get hammered for that little rant.

CRad
03-05-2004, 09:18
NoSlack might be right. There are more police than SF guys that's true and the budgets of all the cities combined probably make up more than SF gets for training but I'll bet more gets spent on training individual SF soldiers compared to the amount spent on training invidual officers.

Just the length of police training compared to the Q-course would make that true. Police don't go off on month long training missions. The police don't do the same kind of work as soldiers though so they don't need to ask the S-3 to spring for over $100,000 for airplanes for deployment or redeployment. (I think that's about the average cost of air to a training mission) I'm also guessing the police never asked the S-3 for a Grand for sunglasses and I know of one team that did exactly that.

The type of training SF needs as opposed to the type of traing the police require makes it hard to compare the two.

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2004, 09:18
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
One additional idea. The LEO’s place a .50 sniper rifle on each pursuit helicopter. As soon as the asshole bad guy is seen running from the blue lights a .50 round penetrates the engine block. If the BG runs and attempts to “hijack” another vehicle, the sniper then places one more .50 round through the BG.

I agree with NDD, running from the police should carry a HARSH penalty. But running away and placing innocent lives in harms way is inexcusable and should carry some severe ramifications.

I do not care about “getting tough on crime,” I want to see Americans get tough on criminals instead.

Team Sergeant

DAMN! Why didn't I think about shooting the block out with the BFR?. Great idea. Of course we'll have to get a Army dude to do the actual shooting.:D

Guy
03-05-2004, 09:18
Noslack71:

Do this simple math equation...

I land on the ground in Iraq the beginning of Sept. I speak with an SF A-team who states...

"One more month we are out of here, our year is up".

The majority of LEO's go home every night to momma...wife...kids...shower...mattress...boyfrien d...girlfriend...dog...cat...rats...etc.

Get my drift?

Team Sergeant
03-05-2004, 09:25
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
DAMN! Why didn't I think about shooting the block out with the BFR?. Great idea. Of course we'll have to get a Army dude to do the actual shooting.:D

Heck the Coast Guard has been doing it to stop "Fast Boats" transporting drugs to US soil. If a Coast Guard E-3 can shoot out a fast boat engine I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2004, 09:32
Crad,
Even you? Things weren't always like they are right now. Training doesn't mean money. You're going to measure training by dollars spent per trainee? How do you count the best training we ever did - 500 meters from the team room on the Mata Mile?

How are you going to count those countless hours when it was raining outside and we were in the team room doing IV or comms classes?

How do you factor in the "Hey, we're going to do a COMEX in the Uhwarrie, anybody want to go? And you send one, and he comes back and trains the rest of the Team?

How are you going to count the hour every afternoon the SGM spent in the Team Rooms talking? You know, that SGM with 5 tours in Vietnam?

I learned an awful in company-level hotwashes and sitting in the Master Key hootch in the afternoons drinking beer and diagraming on a white board with a magic marker.

Ever hear of hip-pocket training? Costs nothing. Very valuable.

I learned something new everything day I was on a Team. And tried to pass it on to somebody else. Still do.

Training is about attitude, not resources.

Training is a way of life on a Team. Its not for the LEOs I have known or by what I have seen them say here. I am sure there are exceptions.

CRad
03-05-2004, 09:32
For a minute, forget the Real World Missions and focus on the training missions. How much extra training do police officers get? When something above and beyond regular police duties jumps up, like the LA riots for example, how much extra training have they had to deal with that sort of thing? How much money is allotted to extra training? Combat drivng classes, riot control, sniper shooting etc?

Probably not much because it doesn't happen often. SF, on the other hand, needs to train constantly for every contingency because of the nature of the their job. They need the money they get and more (there's never enough) because they have to be ready for whatever they come across in whatever country they deploy to.

Soldiers act as medics, demo, commo, intel, weapons...

The police are police. Big difference.

CRad
03-05-2004, 09:37
Look at it this way NDD - Unless you are on the team and living the life you don't know what goes on with a team so you don't what the training is on a daily basis regardless of how many books written by insiders that you've read or how many years you've been married to an SF soldier. You either are SF or you aren't. I know what I see and that's it. I think the police and SF are two very different but equally importnat jobs and neither gets the amount of respect, money or training time they need.

So, from me you get a dual out look but not an insiders outlook.

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2004, 09:37
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Heck the Coast Guard has been doing it to stop "Fast Boats" transporting drugs to US soil. If a Coast Guard E-3 can shoot out a fast boat engine I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

The worst thing is I set up a test and exercise in Panama for that very thing. ST 4 came over and we did it.

Pilot - "Ok, let's shoot it."

BAM!

Pilot - "Holy shit! TIME OUT!"

Took us forever to find something that would cushion the recoil and not shake the bird out of the air. Great time was had by all.

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2004, 09:40
How much extra training do police officers get?

How much do they make happen? You can't wait for it to be sent from above like a gift. You have to go out and take it.

GackMan
03-05-2004, 09:55
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

Ah yes, but could you get the local city council to approve this new “pursuit intervention SOP”?

You think it scares the sheep to see an AR mounted in a patrol car.

CRad
03-05-2004, 10:06
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
How much do they make happen? You can't wait for it to be sent from above like a gift. You have to go out and take it.

I know a couple of motivated individuals who work on their shooting skills right regular. High speed pursuit and riot training might be a little harder to arrange but thinking on it that could be not only creative but fun. I should ask our neighborwood watch block captain.

Team Sergeant
03-05-2004, 10:09
Originally posted by GackMan
Ah yes, but could you get the local city council to approve this new “pursuit intervention SOP”?

You think it scares the sheep to see an AR mounted in a patrol car.

IMO it could be the wave of the future. It does not take a whole lot of training to hit an engine block from 300m no matter how fast the vehicle is traveling, and I’m sure the PD’s involved would have emplaced SOP’s as to when the engine block would be destroyed such as the BG car slowing to make a turn etc. The media impact would also be great as the asshole gets out of the car with a stupid look on his face as he only traveled 5 miles before he was reduced to being a pedestrian again.

As any LEO tool, used correctly it should not scare the sheep.

Team Sergeant

Roguish Lawyer
03-05-2004, 10:28
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
IMO it could be the wave of the future. It does not take a whole lot of training to hit an engine block from 300m no matter how fast the vehicle is traveling, and I’m sure the PD’s involved would have emplaced SOP’s as to when the engine block would be destroyed such as the BG car slowing to make a turn etc. The media impact would also be great as the asshole gets out of the car with a stupid look on his face as he only traveled 5 miles before he was reduced to being a pedestrian again.

As any LEO tool, used correctly it should not scare the sheep.

Team Sergeant

Question:

If a car is traveling at high speed (let's say 80 mph) and you take out the engine block, what happens to the driver's ability to control the car? I am not asking whether the engine will continue to provide power, but rather whether taking out the engine block is going to ensure a serious accident.

And I'm just asking. I don't know the answer. :)

Guy
03-05-2004, 10:45
RL:

Once a helo has the perp spotted. I would call off the ground pursuit...or least have them pull back.

Sooner or later the perp is going to either end up in a non-populated area or have to slow down.

That's when you take the shot.

AIO...Adapt. Improvise and Overcome.

Ockham's Razor
03-05-2004, 11:22
Great stuff here. However, before we go putting very large pieces of flying metal into engine blocks, which would indeed be very effective; how about electronic counter-measures? Such as being able to deploy a device either from the car, or placed on the road like stop sticks, Electro-magnetic pulse device, that would take out the car's electrical system and simply cause it to stop operating.

I know they are working on this technology, but have no idea how far along it is. Also, it would be a marked inprovement from the stop sticks, while effective, also causes the driver to lose control of the vehicle possibly causing injury to other motorists or pedestrians.

If put on the ballot, I would vote for the BFG initiative. Only if the Team Sergeant will design and staff the course for those who will be trained to use it.

Noslack71
03-05-2004, 15:34
Where do I begin? Team Sgt, lets do the math, where do you want to start, 9/11? There are not millions of cops, look at how many are killed and injured in the line of duty each year. SF is trained to Win their encounters while cops are trained to tie, ie not destroy. Puts a bit of a different flavor in a fight if one side is constrained from going all out.
Guy, I am sorry, I thought the draft ended! While you are over in Iraq who is here in the homeland protecting the families? Do you want to skimp on the training for the folks protecting your family while you are deployed?
We are and have been manufacturing violent criminals. We have become very efficient as a society at creating a very violent and dangerous sub-element of our society. Like it or not, the average cop comes from the lower middle or upper lower class. The3 majority of cities cannot afford the cost of vetting these folks as well as your average soldier in a commo MOS is. They get 8-16 weeks training, are forced to join a municipal union. They are trained by folks who have been trained by others not to rock the boat.
Many of you would be howling like banshees if the media treated your missions with the same shallow indifference they do on Cops and other media BS programs.
Washington State patrol used to pull alongside cars that were running and shoot holes in the engine blocks. That policy went by the wayside about the same time they quit requiring troopers to be 6 ft tall white men.
There are literally, millions of convicted/non caught violent felons living in the US. Our population is about 265 million just 1% is somewhere around 2.65 million. They are murdering, raping, robbing and injuring Americans by the bushel year in and year out. We as a society simply do not want to face these problems. Rather than awaken our collective conscience we feel better ignoring it. Ghetto cops are part of an Army of occupation. I left the DC police when I became part of Marion Barry's body guard detail. I went back into the Army so I could at least be allowed and encouraged to win a fight or two. Look at how many of our people are being killed, maimed and assaulted sexually and otherwise here at home every year. Those are `apparently acceptable losses. I am a trigger puller by training, experience and inclination, at this stage of my life I just wonder where it will do the most good.

CRad
03-05-2004, 16:42
Originally posted by Noslack71
While you are over in Iraq who is here in the homeland protecting the families? Do you want to skimp on the training for the folks protecting your family while you are deployed?


Great point! I have to say though that we have a tendency to look out for each other fairly well.

I would prefer 1000 times over that the man of this household was home nights to check out those strange noises in the back yard that send the dogs high order, but failing that I'll settle for a highly trained police force that can get here in record time. Although, we do have friends with guns that are always ready to help out.

I don't know if it's true of all SF folks but it is with our friends - We tend to "clump" together. There are half a dozen 7th Grp guys in my neighborhood. I turn to them on a regular basis when I have a small problem like noises in the back yard or a non-group neighbor who is bugging me.

The Reaper
03-05-2004, 18:43
Originally posted by Noslack71
Where do I begin? Team Sgt, lets do the math, where do you want to start, 9/11? There are not millions of cops, look at how many are killed and injured in the line of duty each year. SF is trained to Win their encounters while cops are trained to tie, ie not destroy. Puts a bit of a different flavor in a fight if one side is constrained from going all out.
Guy, I am sorry, I thought the draft ended! While you are over in Iraq who is here in the homeland protecting the families? Do you want to skimp on the training for the folks protecting your family while you are deployed?
We are and have been manufacturing violent criminals. We have become very efficient as a society at creating a very violent and dangerous sub-element of our society. Like it or not, the average cop comes from the lower middle or upper lower class. The3 majority of cities cannot afford the cost of vetting these folks as well as your average soldier in a commo MOS is. They get 8-16 weeks training, are forced to join a municipal union. They are trained by folks who have been trained by others not to rock the boat.
Many of you would be howling like banshees if the media treated your missions with the same shallow indifference they do on Cops and other media BS programs.
Washington State patrol used to pull alongside cars that were running and shoot holes in the engine blocks. That policy went by the wayside about the same time they quit requiring troopers to be 6 ft tall white men.
There are literally, millions of convicted/non caught violent felons living in the US. Our population is about 265 million just 1% is somewhere around 2.65 million. They are murdering, raping, robbing and injuring Americans by the bushel year in and year out. We as a society simply do not want to face these problems. Rather than awaken our collective conscience we feel better ignoring it. Ghetto cops are part of an Army of occupation. I left the DC police when I became part of Marion Barry's body guard detail. I went back into the Army so I could at least be allowed and encouraged to win a fight or two. Look at how many of our people are being killed, maimed and assaulted sexually and otherwise here at home every year. Those are `apparently acceptable losses. I am a trigger puller by training, experience and inclination, at this stage of my life I just wonder where it will do the most good.

Roger that.

Couple of notes. We do not have a union. We cannot quit and move if we do not like the boss, or our jobs.

When I tell one of my people to go do something that will almost certainly get him killed, he cannot go "Screw you, Jack!" without some pretty serious repercussions.

When SSG Schmuckatelli, whose wife is eight months pregnant with their first child, gets orders to get down to Green Ramp and palletize for a little trip overseas for a year, he cannot quit.

When he gets where he is going, and has to work 80 hour weeks, he gets the same pay, no overtime.

When a local club needs some security, they don't call him and offer him $50 an hour, off the books, to come down and work the door.

Who volunteered to protect my family while I am gone? Not sure, SCOTUS says that LE has no obligation to protect anybody. The local cops in my neighborhood volunteered to do police work, and if it gets too hard, they can quit and do something else tomorrow.

Do you think the media only picks on LEOs? Do you remember late Vietnam, or read the paper these days?

Wouldn't be a cop for five times what they pay them here. Too much second guessing, BS, and political correctness.

OTOH, don't sell who we are or what we do short, or think that we are overpaid, or overtrained.

You really believe that, pick up the glove, and come to the SFQC for your share.

TR

Noslack71
03-05-2004, 21:02
Reaper; did Viet Nam AMERICAL & 101st, and a place called Dong ba Thinh attached not assigned to 5th Grp. Did Central America 83-86, CTTF &CNTF, was the active Army's primary advisor to 297th SF MI CO(USAR) Each of my children were born in different countries on different continents. My wife and I were held at gunpoint( twice, once while she was pregnant) while they threatened to kill me and assault her by PDF secret police during Manny Noriega's tour. Currently hold a retired ID card. Most of the SOF soldiers. Would Love to grab a ruck and come back recruiter says no thanks. Neither cops nor soldiers are drafted. Make you the same offer you made me. Go be a ghetto cop for awhile, pick up that glove for your share. Then, lets compare notes.
I seem to remember those same fellows you mention as being able to tell their bosses to "screw off" running into the Trade Centers on 9/11 while everyone else was running out, even though they had no obligation to do so according to you and SCOTUS. You might take some of your own advice and read some of those accounts of the people you speak so derisively of. I am unsure if it is the message or the messenger that offends you.
The point I was trying to make is one Aristotle did much more succiently 2500+ years ago. Poverty is the parent of revolution.
Rome rotted from the inside. The terrorists are here, they have been here, we call them criminals. There are millions of them! America attacks the problems it sees, it does not see these problems. Acknowledging the real costs would mean resonsibility to any society with a conscience. Rather than doing that, it is simply better for society to ignore them. So Reaper here is the question, in the last ten years which group has killed and terrorized more innocent Americans al Queda or the criminals in this country? Which group have we as a country spent more assets on trying to defeat during the same time period. Which group is more likely to destroy the fabric of our society?

Team Sergeant
03-06-2004, 09:12
Originally posted by Noslack71
Where do I begin? Team Sgt, lets do the math, where do you want to start, 9/11? There are not millions of cops, look at how many are killed and injured in the line of duty each year.

NS, I’m not going to argue with you about numbers, fact, law enforcement officers currently in the US number about one million, total officer deaths in 2003, is 133. Let me assist you with the math, that’s about one officer for every seven thousand five hundred on duty.

We have a much higher causality rate.

Go fuck with someone else, I’m not going to play your game.

Team Sergeant

The Reaper
03-06-2004, 10:25
Originally posted by Noslack71
Make you the same offer you made me. Go be a ghetto cop for awhile, pick up that glove for your share. Then, lets compare notes.

First thank you for your service and support of my brother SF soldiers. I take it that you are not SF qualified. I was in Hondo the same time frame you were, in Juticalpa, Soto Cano, and Tegu.

Now take a deep breath, and relax. You seem to want to lash out here at someone. You took a shot at the Team Sergeant and Guy, then at me and now want to argue about a SCOTUS decision. Obviously, you wish to make this personal. If you are cruising for a fight here, I'll be your huckleberry.

I worked as a dispatcher for four years, so I have about as much knowledge about being a LEO as you do about being an SF soldier. This is an SF site, not an LEO site, so expect a certain perspective on things here.

I already stated: "Wouldn't be a cop for five times what they pay them here. Too much second guessing, BS, and political correctness." Did you miss that in your rant?

Originally posted by Noslack71
I seem to remember those same fellows you mention as being able to tell their bosses to "screw off" running into the Trade Centers on 9/11 while everyone else was running out, even though they had no obligation to do so according to you and SCOTUS.

I am sorry, I seem to remember quite a few cases of "blue flu" and police strikes over the last 40 years, when has the military mutinied and refused to do their sworn duty over pay?

Are you trying to wrap yourself in a flag and rest on the laurels of the NY LEOs who died in the WTC? Not sure you want to go down that road. I count 71 LEOs lost in the line of duty, and 343 firefighters. 125 military and civilian DoD personnel died in the Pentagon. Tragic deaths all, some as heroes, many acts of valor (and cowardice) unknown. Have I spoken of them before this? I don't think so. What is the relevance of this point? Some good officers out there, and some who would be bad garbagemen. One shot two SF students two years ago playing cowboy. Is he the example you want cited?

Originally posted by Noslack71
You might take some of your own advice and read some of those accounts of the people you speak so derisively of. I am unsure if it is the message or the messenger that offends you.

Thank you for your advice. Do you presume that I am ignorant? I have read the accounts, know the history, suggest that you do the same WRT SF losses. I never said a word about LE losses. Will you guarantee me that none of them ever did any of the things that I mentioned before to differentiate between SF and LEOs? What is offensive to me is your attitude, your attacks on my SF brothers, and your attempts to spin the topics to suit your own interest, all the while, as a guest on an SF owned and operated board. You want to brag on the soldiers who ran back into the Pentagon without gear or training to try and help?

Originally posted by Noslack71
The point I was trying to make is one Aristotle did much more succiently 2500+ years ago. Poverty is the parent of revolution.
Rome rotted from the inside. The terrorists are here, they have been here, we call them criminals.

It occurs to me that if you honestly believe that terrorists and criminals are the same, you need to review the definitions thread and turn in your weapon till you fully understand the difference.

Originally posted by Noslack71
There are millions of them! America attacks the problems it sees, it does not see these problems. Acknowledging the real costs would mean resonsibility to any society with a conscience. Rather than doing that, it is simply better for society to ignore them.

Millions of them incarcerated as well, billions spent to apprehend and keep them there. Are you ranting about social responsibility, conscience, injustice, poverty, what? Are you one of those who think we should disarm, stand down the military, and redistribute the money in additional welfare payments to the needy? Doubling LE salaries? Establishing a National Registry and a police state? Anarchy? What are you advocating here, and what is your proposed solution? Complaints without recommendations are just gripes and snivels.

Originally posted by Noslack71
So Reaper here is the question, in the last ten years which group has killed and terrorized more innocent Americans al Queda or the criminals in this country? Which group have we as a country spent more assets on trying to defeat during the same time period. Which group is more likely to destroy the fabric of our society?

Killed? Until 911, LEOs had killed more citizens in the US than terrorists ever had. Many of them no doubt deserved it. Some, like 1LT Tomeny and SSG Phelps, did not. With a 3,000 death morning, obviously, the scales changed.

Terrorized? Completely different subject. Since criminals are primarily committing crimes for the sake of immediate gratification, and the only ones in that group attempting to influence opinion MAY be organized crime, little terrorism there.

On the other hand, since 911, anyone who has been afraid to fly because of the possibility of terrorism, travel overseas, go to a public gathering, visit public places, thought that the US should change its policies, etc. has been a victim of international terrorism.

Prior to 911, the domestic law enforcement budgets of all Federal, State, and local police departments FAR exceeded the piddling amount spent on AT and CT. It likely still does, if you only count direct AT and CT costs.

I agree that over the past 10 years, the average American is far more likely to be killed by a criminal (or an LEO) than a terrorist. In the previous ten years, NO citizen in the U.S. was killed by a foreign terrorist group. You were MUCH more likely to be wrongfully killed by an LEO than by a terrorist. That is the way statistics work.

Riddle me this. Given: Criminals killed more US citizens on the average over the past ten years than terrorists. Will you make that guarantee for the next ten years?

There are many factory- built thermonuclear weapons unaccounted for, and unknown numbers of homemade weapons and dirty bombs out there, which have already been used for terrorism. There are tons on chemical weapons, easily manufactured, on the market and in the hands of states known to sponsor terrorism. There are modified strains of biological agents out there that you cannot even conceive of, developed by the Soviets, Chinese, North Koreans, Iran, Syria, and God knows who else. Many of these require no weaponization to deliver. Any (or many) of the tens of thousands of people entering this country legally and otherwise could be a carrier. Let's say that a 300KT weapon is brought into this country and detonated in a major metropolitan area. Immediate deaths could exceed 1,000,000 people, another million or more die later, industry is disrupted, commerce wrecked. After about five seconds of that rolling fireball, do you still think that your stats would still reflect the criminals to be the greater threat to this country? A highly communicable, airborne, lethal pathogen arrives in this country simultaneously from 12 major cities. On the long flights, breathing recirculated air, the carrier infects everyone else on the plane, who proceed to their departure gates for additional flights, etc. Millions die, martial law is declared to enforce quarrantine areas, the country is isolated internationally, nothing in or out for years. Do you still see criminals as a greater threat?

The criminal kills on a small scale, usually for immediate reward. He gets away, kills again, eventually gets caught. Tragic for those involved, no doubt. We miss one bad guy with one of the above scenarios, 911 could look like amateur hour, this country would be wrecked for years.

Things change. Societies have to change, and adapt, or perish. You might want to review your history. Rome fell after they quit being warriors taking the war to the bad guys, and started building walls defending an increasingly dependent underclass at home. If we fail just once at the wrong time in the GWOT, this country could be finished.

And yes, it could be an $18,000 per year rookie cop that catches him here at home. Like Lee and Sherman though, I prefer to take the war to the enemy, and do my fighting on his turf.

You have a very SF day, and I hope you think on this before responding.

TR

Smokin Joe
03-06-2004, 15:37
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
How much do they make happen? You can't wait for it to be sent from above like a gift. You have to go out and take it.

Agreed, that is why we do.

That is why atleast once a month I take who ever wants to go out and we shoot.

If no one wants to go then I go on my own. I wish I could shoot more but we don't have the facilities.

As far as driving goes. Hahaha we don't have any training other that what is provided in the Academy. We do not have the opportunity, we all beg for it but it is not a priority for our admins. Any driving training we do is totally unofficial and pretty friggin dangerous, b/c its a sort of trail an error aka learning by brail type of driving. We do it away from civilains so that is not a factor but it is still completely unprofessional.

Why because that is all we have to work with. Some will ask well why don't you have to qualifiy with your car just like with your firearm. Well, the way our admin looks at it is, "thats why you have a drivers license right." Our response is ya right whatever your fucking say.

TS, I love your idea, when is training and can I come?

NousDefionsDoc
03-06-2004, 20:42
Joe,
The main reason training like driving is high in the States is the insurance is outrageous.

What is the training priority for you guys? According to the admins I mean.

Smokin Joe
03-06-2004, 22:11
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Joe,
The main reason training like driving is high in the States is the insurance is outrageous.

What is the training priority for you guys? According to the admins I mean.

It’s not, at all.

It’s pretty friggin sad really. We are a small agency about 82 sworn and about 120 detention Officers. But we are the second largest county in the nation at 180,000 square miles. We encompass most of the Grand Canyon and Lake Powell (to name some familiar spots) From Sedona, Az to Utah and from Seligman, Az to Winslow, Az. Its kind of a po-dunk county, b/c we have the longest running Sheriff in the Nation (32 + years in office). Pursuits around here are hit and miss (pardon the pun) but if I had to guess we get one around here (meaning one of the agencies in the area not just the S.O.) about ever 3-5 months or so.

Outside the Academy we get ZERO additional training (unless you count the 14-week FTO program which is mostly pointers nothing more). Our detention officers get nothing at all not even in the academy! And they do armed transports (what I do). Yup I got zero official training in how to drive. I had to seek out my own training and hit guys up on what to do and what not to do. Hence what I said in my earlier posts about learning by Braille. It’s pretty jacked up but when admin says, "ah you don't need to know that stuff it’s a waste of time, money, and man power." What are supposed to do expect go outside the department to gain training?

Here is something else that will make your jaw drop (not to get to far off topic), I am a firearms instructor for my department have been for about 2.5 yrs now and I have been begging for "official training" on AR-15's (I have been taught outside the department again on my own with my own time and money). I want the "official" stamp so I can carry one. They have always told me no way a D.O. is going to carry a rifle! But seeing how you are a firearms instructor we will let you go through the training. I was told this last week. They think that carrying a rifle is to aggressive and completely out of the question for our guys to carry. Even though they transport high profile criminals all over the southwest. Hell, most of our transport guys can't even carry a shotgun.

Pretty sad uh?

NousDefionsDoc
03-06-2004, 22:32
Not good at all.

Smokin Joe
03-06-2004, 22:37
I agree, that and a HOLE bunch of other crap is why the misses wants me to seek employement else where.

I can't say I really blam her though.

18C4V
03-07-2004, 00:06
That sucks Joe,
I feel for you. My dept is a pretty large dept. We have 2,400 cops and about 1000 sheriff's (Intake only) for a city with a population of over 800,00 not counting the commuters and tourists who bumps that up to well over a million. Our city is 49 square miles with my district being about 11 sq miles.

We have our own academy which means that training is there if you want it. You just have to request the training and pretty much you get it. Except for shooting schools (only for specialized units)

Our dept mandates that you receive refresher EVOC (vehicle) training every 3 years. Me being a ghetto cop, I find that most ghetto cops or cops who have worked the ghetto are pretty good at pursuits.

For patrol and inspectors, You have to qualify twice a year, with pistol, shotgun, and ERIW (less lethal). You're allocated 100 rds hand gun monthly to practice.

For me being in a specialized unit, I get 2 hrs overtime each pay period to shoot my toys off duty. I get unlimited ammo for off duty practice. I'm required to qualify with all my toys every month and to pass a pt test every other month.

Being in a specialized unit, I pretty much get to go to the schools that the average patrol officer can't go.

Even though I gotta put up with lots of crap at work, the only think I really appreciate are the guys in my specialist unit.

Smokin Joe
03-07-2004, 00:42
Originally posted by 18C3V
That sucks Joe,
I feel for you.

I appericate it.

I'm lucky b/c I have alot of really squared away people I work with so its not completely horrible. We just have to FIGHT with admin for every little thing. Its sucks right now b/c I have a total puss for a Sgt. who won't sack up to the admin and ask for extra training or O.T. for training. So we have to accomplish all our training off duty with our own ammo or vehicle.

The hole rifle and driving issue are another story. We will get that with a new Sheriff (maybe we will see who gets elected).

Stay Safe all

GackMan
03-07-2004, 01:46
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
the misses wants me to seek employement else where.

pm inbound. :)

Have you thought about Oregon?

The Reaper
03-07-2004, 07:31
Originally posted by 18C3V
You're allocated 100 rds hand gun monthly to practice.


Then they wonder why an officer excpends 15 rounds in an incident with no hits.

100 rounds is a warm up. Still, I am sure that some officers fail to use it, and don't feel that they need to.

This is little different than the soldier who gets 10 rounds of 5.56 per year to zero and 40 to qualify. No 9mm, and maybe 20 rounds or so for the SAW or M-240, if they want it and are not primary crew members.

Then they wonder why Officer Johnnie (or Private Joanie) can't shoot. Pitiful.

Joe, you live in a beautiful part of the country, but may be time to move on. How about a local municipal department?

TR

Guy
03-07-2004, 09:11
Look or ask...how many people actually go thru the motions of dry firing?

Either with the pistol or rifle.

As far as drivers training. There are many schools that conduct on-site training for either driving or shooting, as well as individuals that are willing to travel to your location to teach either.

Smokin Joe
03-07-2004, 09:22
Originally posted by The Reaper
Then they wonder why an officer excpends 15 rounds in an incident with no hits.

100 rounds is a warm up. Still, I am sure that some officers fail to use it, and don't feel that they need to.

Joe, you live in a beautiful part of the country, but may be time to move on. How about a local municipal department?

TR

They only give us 50 rounds a month when weather and staff permits. So that boils down to about 50 rounds every 3-4 months.

TR, I think your right. Except I couldn't work for the local P.D. way to much politics and they are a statically driven department (read quota's even though they are against federal law), that does not mesh well with my personality. I'm looking farther south closer to the Team Sergeant. :)

I hope no one from work lurks here.

Smokin Joe
03-07-2004, 09:28
Originally posted by Guy
Look or ask...how many people actually go thru the motions of dry firing?

Either with the pistol or rifle.

As far as drivers training. There are many schools that conduct on-site training for either driving or shooting, as well as individuals that are willing to travel to your location to teach either.

I dry fire 5 days a week.

As for driving.
Admin won't fund the training. We even have a sworn officer who is an admin Sgt who is a driving instructor, but they say they don't have the time, money, or staff in order to have the training.

So we have a driving instructor who works for us but admin won't let it happen. I get excuse after exuse if it isn't one thing its another.

The Reaper
03-07-2004, 10:19
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
I dry fire 5 days a week.

As for driving.
Admin won't fund the training. We even have a sworn officer who is an admin Sgt who is a driving instructor, but they say they don't have the time, money, or staff in order to have the training.

So we have a driving instructor who works for us but admin won't let it happen. I get excuse after exuse if it isn't one thing its another.

Ummm...I have heard of units using rental cars or cruisers headed to the bone yard and an unused section of highway or runway to practice on. Almost no cost to the unit, if you have your own instructor and some cones.

TR

Smokin Joe
03-07-2004, 10:29
Unfortunately TR the instructor won't teach us unless it is department sanctioned. And the department won't sanction it b/c we don't need to know according to them. Its total b.s. all the way around. I have hit up everyone I know in patrol and Criminal Investigations on driving tips. Then when I get a chance I practice (not that the department knows).

The department is very non progressive. It takes a considerable amount of effort to get anything changed or updated. The most famous words in our department said by our admin is, "well we have always done it that way." or "We have never need to do that in the past why do we need to do it now."

The Reaper
03-07-2004, 10:45
Have you spoken with the Department's Legal Counsel about the liability implications of conducting high speed pursuits without appropriate training?

He may want to have a word with the Chief.

TR

CRad
03-07-2004, 11:34
Originally posted by 18C3V


Our dept mandates that you receive refresher EVOC (vehicle) training every 3 years. Me being a ghetto cop, I find that most ghetto cops or cops who have worked the ghetto are pretty good at pursuits.



This begs the question - Is a successful pursuit predicated more on initimate familiarity of the area in which a pursuit is conducted or on driving ability? Obviously good driving skills would be important but which is better in an urban environment?

Smokin Joe
03-07-2004, 11:38
Originally posted by The Reaper
Have you spoken with the Department's Legal Counsel about the liability implications of conducting high speed pursuits without appropriate training?

He may want to have a word with the Chief.

TR

Well the County Attorny serves as our legal counsel. But that is a very good poiint that I have not pursued.

Thanks for the tip.

NousDefionsDoc
03-07-2004, 12:17
Joe,
Another thing you might want to try with him that has worked for me is to show him a lsit of the damages and payouts that have occurred in similar situations in other areas. When admins see millions in damages, a couple of thousand in training doesn't look so bad. And they all understand dollars.

Smokin Joe
03-07-2004, 17:35
Another good point NDD. I should also mention that it is an election year so all kinds of crazy stuff happens. But bringing this up during an election year will probably make it happen. Thanks for all of your input nothing I love more then making admin say yes to something they have said no to for years.

NousDefionsDoc
03-07-2004, 17:41
Hope it helped a little.

Noslack71
03-13-2004, 23:12
Reaper, Thank you for your reply. I have never intentionally denigrated a member of the US military and never will. If I have inadverntaly offended, please, accept my apology.
I used the term " ghetto cop" several times and not LEO on purpose. LEO's include deputy sherriffs, US Marshals, FBI, state patrol, corrections, parole officers etc. Ghetto cops number about 25,000 and work in places like Detroit, LA, Chicago, Wash DC. To many ghetto cops, lumping them in with all LEO's is like saying that an SF soldier is simply a member of the military. The conditions and situations a ghetto cop is confronted with on a daily basis dwarfs that of the majority of LEO's will ever see in a career. The US averages between 11000 and 14000 homicides a year, plus on average between 50000 and 60000 deaths from auto accidents. This does not take into account injuries from rapes, assaults, child abuse, spouse abuse etc. This happens year in and year out. Go to the FBI web page and you can see the stats. I understand the word terrorize and did not use it lightly. If you have ever been in a neighborhood that has been taken over by thugs, that description fits. I don't think one can appreciate the scope of the problem without experiencing it firsthand. There are entire neighborhoods in urban America that the ghetto cops cannot go at night. This is because they neither have the firepower, the resources and most importantly the political support of their city leadership. The professionalism, training and performance level of most LEO's and their departments is hopelessly inadequate. That is one reason that you hear many of them scream so loudly for a slice of the Homeland Security pie. It is frustrating to know that most of what can be done is to take a report and try to arrest the bad guy. I went to at least one murder a week every week for five years. Most were women, children and teenagers. There are streets in Wash DC where you can see the US capitol and children under the age of 10 probably will not be able to identify an orange if you put it in their hand. Many folks have suggested that shooting those idiots or the engine block of the cars they drive with .50 cal BMG's. If you liked the results of the Rodney King mess, just imagine the results the first time the cops kill somebody or, better yet that .50 cal hits a kid accidently. Ghetto cops are paid to keep a lid on the ghetto, not solve any problems. While still in the Army we put Doctors, SF and other medics in the ER's of big city hospitals so they could get experience treating casualties of military and other large caliber weapons. There was no other place where they could gain that type of trauma experience.
I think your riddle is a rhetorical question, you are a smart man. My bet is you wont make any guarantees either.
Simply because someone criticizes or challenges a thread on the does not make them an enemy. Nor does praise and agreement make one an ally. SF is as susceptible to group think as any other branch. If you were in Hondo then we chewed some of the same dirt. Saba Boca, La Ceiba, the ranch, that fellow who was the other half of that CW banjo team Flatt & - - - - - - -.
I do have a couple of questions/suggestions. This is not to impune SF in anyway. The name of this site is Professional Soldiers, are all professional soldiers welcome or, just SF. Are those other branches/services not professional soldiers?
Having spent a goodly amount of time as a 2, I am well aware of the term "asset" and how it is used professionally. It seems a bit pejorative to those who have spent a career soldiering.
I have been out several years and my wife forced me to watch a segment on Oprah once. I may have become overally sensitive by that or all of these lattes and other creature comforts civilian life has afforded me. SF is a great branch and so are all the others. It is condecending to make comments about whether or not someoneone has been to the Q course. If you are a senior NCO you know that you take what God,fate and DA gives you and do the best you can with that. If you feel that by not going to the Q course makes one less than, or not professional then, I am in excellent company. Grant Lee, Sherman, Mac Arthur, Eisenhower, Powell, Schwartzkopft not to mention thousands of fellows who ran across beaches in Normandy and Tarawa, jumped into Normandy (I could never be a leg) took back Hue and the US Embassy in Saigon etc. Thanks again for the kind reply.
"In God We Trust, All Others We Monitor"

NoSlack