View Full Version : 18E course shortened
didnt see it posted yet, but the 18E course has been shortened to 26 weeks insted of the 37 weeks that it was. thought someone might be interested. not sure what exactly they took out to shorten it.
The Reaper
07-31-2005, 07:58
IMC came out in 2002.
It was replaced by computer and network courses.
TR
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-31-2005, 11:43
IMC came out in 2002.
It was replaced by computer and network courses.
TR
Yet another battle lost :mad:
The Reaper
07-31-2005, 11:58
Yet another battle lost :mad:
Yes, but you bought 20 years in the delaying action, Boss, so it is not all bad. :D
TR
The Reaper
07-31-2005, 21:48
I am ignorant obviously right now, but isn't shortening the 18E course a bad thing?
It depends.
TR
I actually had the chance to go to Sage with guys who had just finishe the long 18E course, and guys from the new shortend one (they both finished at the same time because of the new schedul...needless to say we had 4 echos on each team, so we had no problem with comms!) both groups were equally competent in commo. i talk to some guys and found out that they took out morrse code (if i spelled that right, im a bravo) and focuse more on satcom.
IMC came out in 2002.
It was replaced by computer and network courses.
TRNew era, totally dependant on a support structure. :eek: ;)
Take care.
Yet another battle lost :mad:
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Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-01-2005, 19:33
--.- .-. -.- .....
--.. ..- .
sandytroop
09-06-2005, 12:43
I'm back with the 19th, trying to get into the Echo course now (I'm a Charlie, but we need Echos as always, and I figure I can contribute there...). It's always distressing to me when they drop a tool from the kit, in this case AIMC. As a Charlie, I attended ANCOC and spent plenty of time learning about NonL blasting, and enjoyed the talk about replacing all that "old" gear with nonL. Then I took my Old butt to Thailand, where our students suddenly produced a foot locker full of various demo materials. I went through the course in 80, and spent 2 years as a civilian blaster, so none of this was aproblem for me. We discovered caps, but no time fuse... oh, looky here, this looks like time fuse! I was dubious... burnt a piece... it ran 30 feet per second... that's right scouts, Quarry fuse. Hmmm.. wonder if they talk about that in their nonL classes? Not enought to work with, we found 5 kinds of electric caps, nothing military... no blasting machine, but we did have an echo, so that means we had batteries. A brilliant day of demo training ensued (including a very educational missfire...), all because I made it my rule years ago: If they don't have it where you're going, you don't need to worry bout using it THERE. Number 1, make sure you learn to use what you' WILL have not just what you DO have.
IMC is in that school. What happens when you're not making commo? Pray that some old salty like Valentine pops over and says "Hey, no sweat, I have my key in my ruck. Here's the diagram, cut me a (di-pole, / directed wave / whatever...) antenna and we'll bounce the signal off the moon, and have everything we need by BMNT..." Big smile on his face, because he knew he could do it. I appreciate and respect the technology we have now, but we should never disrespect our roots, or forget the fact that a very nice fire can be made with 2 pieces of bamboo, a little training and a lot of enthusiasm.
LongWire
01-20-2006, 13:46
IMC is in that school. What happens when you're not making commo? Pray that some old salty like Valentine pops over and says "Hey, no sweat, I have my key in my ruck. Here's the diagram, cut me a (di-pole, / directed wave / whatever...) antenna and we'll bounce the signal off the moon, and have everything we need by BMNT..." Big smile on his face, because he knew he could do it. I appreciate and respect the technology we have now, but we should never disrespect our roots, or forget the fact that a very nice fire can be made with 2 pieces of bamboo, a little training and a lot of enthusiasm.
I agree, I went through 16 weeks of code because I just couldnt hear it the first 8 weeks.........I will stack up the L tapes against SERE School anytime......anyways heres the thing, I would agree that it would be nice to fall back on HF and be able to use code.........the reality is that we have so much technoligcal stuff at our disposal now that its really not necessary, and I know what your gonna say, but the fact of the matter is that the Sigdet boys have a hard enough time looking at the stuff they are supposed to be looking at already. Which means that they just dont monitor other areas of the spectrum anymore. We carry enough portable systems for contingencies that if we do have hiccups that we have backup.
With that being said, I Love HF,I hated the E co course, I was disgruntled as I went through because it was not my first choice, anyways when we went to our commex at Ft Chaffee, now Ft Smith my buddy convinced me that we needed to set up a super antenna. Who am I to argue? We got all the wire we had, a couple spools of gray 50, and a bunch of claymore wire, and my chunkin device 2 snaplinks taped together with 550 line, and proceeded to emplace a 535' half wave Rhombic antenna.
We had a couple of other buddies that had gotten their General Ham Licenses, so they started working the Maritime network for us and just about everyone that could get to our position got to talk to their wives via phone patch.We also talked to alot of hams out there, to include hitting Hawaii at around dusk. I Loved Commo and HF especially since that time. Its too bad because there were alot of advantages to that kind of through put. Times are a changin...............
It is just a change in the times. One of these years we will have to return to our UW roots and be able to use more basic means of communications, including non-electronic. Then the course will also adapt.:lifter
That's the mark of a good SF trooper : adaptability.
It is just a change in the times. One of these years we will have to return to our UW roots and be able to use more basic means of communications, including non-electronic. Then the course will also adapt.:lifter
That's the mark of a good SF trooper : adaptability.
25 years ago the CG of the 4th ID required his troops to communicate with visual signals at least once a week while in the field. In the event of nuclear war (which is still a real threat) it was presumed that EMP would fry all electronic circuits. As far as I know comsats are not capable of defending themselves.:(
LongWire
01-20-2006, 15:18
The Truth is with all the stuff we have available its very hard as an Echo to keep up with the Advances. I mean Im deployed Oconus right now and listening to a radio stream out of San Diego (Home) and communicating with my wife, and on here. My Comms are on another system indepndent of this one.
If there is one thing I can say as an Echo that I would pass on is that you have got to be the most important guy on the team. Not to say the Deltas cant do shit, or anything else, but as an Echo it is still a 24/7 job. After Missions, when everyone else bags out, guess who has to send in the AAR? Yup......You need to keep your shit wired tight........and if your the only Echo, keep it wired tighter, beause someones gonna screw your shit up cause they wanna play solitaire or something else with your systems!!!!!!!!!!! No Touchy there Bravo who needed the class on how to use his thumb drive last week, No Touch!!!!!!!!
Almost since I can remember there were those who saw no need for 18Es to learn IMC. We fought hard to keep it (between 88 - 94) and sometime in the early 90s they decided to drop the skill from 15 wpm to 10 wpm. When they did this I knew that the end was near!
I really have mixed feelings about dropping IMC from the course. Of course, with today's technology there probably isn't any need to use IMC. But, I've always felt that someone who was in SF to start with should strive to be the best in whichever field they are in. For me, an 18E should have a working knowledge of ALL types of communication systems, from telephones, radios, (Yes, IMC), computers, etc. (Like the "G" chief I had in phase III at the SFQC. He took my mike and key away and told me I still had to make comms. He wanted us to learn to improvise).
The problem with this is how fast today's technology advances. For example, when I was in the 12th SFG we still used the AN/GRC-109 radio with the wind-up key burst device. (Of course, neither the 12th SFG nor the GRC-109 are in the system these days!). Later, once I returned to active duty and 10th SFGA it was the PRC-70 and DMDG. Since I've been retired for 11 years I have no idea what is being used today, but I'll bet it is "high tech."
At least I have a ham license and can work the morse bands on 80 and 40 meters.
Its interesting to hear what you fellows are saying about the 18E course. I went through the old 05B course at Bragg in1963, IMC was our bread and butter back then. Its hard to believe they they are doing away with it, but then with all the new tech advances I guess it was bound to happen. Take care gents.
deanwells
06-12-2007, 16:01
The Truth is with all the stuff we have available its very hard as an Echo to keep up with the Advances. I mean Im deployed Oconus right now and listening to a radio stream out of San Diego (Home) and communicating with my wife, and on here. My Comms are on another system indepndent of this one.
If there is one thing I can say as an Echo that I would pass on is that you have got to be the most important guy on the team. Not to say the Deltas cant do shit, or anything else, but as an Echo it is still a 24/7 job. After Missions, when everyone else bags out, guess who has to send in the AAR? Yup......You need to keep your shit wired tight........and if your the only Echo, keep it wired tighter, beause someones gonna screw your shit up cause they wanna play solitaire or something else with your systems!!!!!!!!!!! No Touchy there Bravo who needed the class on how to use his thumb drive last week, No Touch!!!!!!!!
Yeah you're not kidding. I was just blessed with the oppurtunity to pick up two echos to help me out. I was on my own for a little bit and the work just kept coming.
As for the course getting shortened, that started in early 05. Does it hurt the commo on the teams? Maybe? If there is a senior present, than he will bring the new guy up to speed. If not, than the new guy needs to crack the manuals and be friends with C&E, because those are the guys who will save your rear when you are down range without a clue. It helps to have a super commo dude on the B team because he has answers for those not so easy questions.
Networking is the priority in the rear and down range depending on the leadership....Study up...you will need it.
DW
and proceeded to emplace a 535' half wave Rhombic antenna.
:eek: :eek:
Have to remember that one!
Ret10Echo
06-13-2007, 03:46
If there is a senior present, than he will bring the new guy up to speed. If not, than the new guy needs to crack the manuals and be friends with C&E, because those are the guys who will save your rear when you are down range without a clue. It helps to have a super commo dude on the B team because he has answers for those not so easy questions.
Networking is the priority in the rear and down range depending on the leadership....Study up...you will need it.
DW
It's been a couple days but do the Echos hit the Gulag (Sig Det) still or are they going straight to the team?
(I realize that manning issues will drive the train on that)
Personal relationships developed and rapport building with the base station guys and CE folks definitely grease the skids down the line.
It's been a couple days but do the Echos hit the Gulag (Sig Det) still or are they going straight to the team?
(I realize that manning issues will drive the train on that)
Personal relationships developed and rapport building with the base station guys and CE folks definitely grease the skids down the line.
Both I think. Our instructors keep telling us we could get sent to SigDet right out or straight to a team
FearMonkey
06-14-2007, 18:10
<----- New 18E in SIGDET.
Surgicalcric
06-14-2007, 18:12
<----- 18E in SIGDET.
Better than being an 18E at the SOAF...or an 18D for that matter... :D
Crip
skipjack
06-14-2007, 22:00
It depends on many factors at the time you in process. I went straight to a team and have been the Senior (only) Echo now for almost 7 months. Some guys I came to group with went to SigDet, some went to C&E and other, like me, went to teams. Kind of luck of the draw, kind of...
-skipjack
deanwells
06-14-2007, 23:16
Yes some guys will do time in the BOP. It's not that bad really. Bop time is what you make of it anyways so implied task is......:confused: I was thankful for my time because I came to the tm ahead of the commo power curve instead of behind. It gave me more time to focus on the rest of the section's jobs and learn more about them. You never know when you might have to cover down on 2 sections:p
Ret10Echo
06-18-2007, 05:19
Yes some guys will do time in the BOP. It's not that bad really. Bop time is what you make of it anyways so implied task is......:confused: I was thankful for my time because I came to the tm ahead of the commo power curve instead of behind. It gave me more time to focus on the rest of the section's jobs and learn more about them. You never know when you might have to cover down on 2 sections:p
I agree that BOP time has some great value to it. I came out of the Signal Corp, but did 9 months at Bn C&E. I think it was a great transition, although at the time I was not very happy about the whole thing.
Some of the guys in SigDet are extremely good at what they do and why not get a few more tricks for the kit-bag.
deanwells
06-18-2007, 17:52
Some of the guys in SigDet are extremely good at what they do and why not get a few more tricks for the kit-bag.
Yep it's a great way to learn about some off the systems you will see that is not part of the intial learning stages. Also you get to see the other side of the coin so you understand the meaning of troubleshooting first..take heads later.
I agree that BOP time has some great value to it. I came out of the Signal Corp, but did 9 months at Bn C&E. I think it was a great transition, although at the time I was not very happy about the whole thing.
Some of the guys in SigDet are extremely good at what they do and why not get a few more tricks for the kit-bag.
Im coming from Signal Corp(31U/25U) also, but I have absolutely no problems with SigDet. Last thing I want to do is show up to a team and be surprised with something I have never seen before and start a bad rep from there.
Ret10Echo
06-23-2007, 21:23
Im coming from Signal Corp(31U/25U) also, but I have absolutely no problems with SigDet. Last thing I want to do is show up to a team and be surprised with something I have never seen before and start a bad rep from there.
Be a sponge.
I'm a 25S30 (SATCOM) with a bit of networkinig experience (Cisco) and Promina. I'm on assignment to 7th Group, reporting near the end of November. After doing a little research I'd really like to get into a SIG DET in one of the SF battallions rather than the support Battallion. Does anyone know who I can contact to try and work this? I'd like to support the teams as close as I can.
Be a sponge.
Take it on your own to learn more about comms, all of it.
Ham , FCC tickets, get a degree in EE?
A real echo just keeps learning, listening , always improving their comms!!!
IMC, CW, the code ... The Sun spots are coming!! HF is KING!!!!
AL Be Ham :munchin
Goose71a
02-08-2010, 15:27
Has the 18E course been shortened again? I just read two SORB pubs that list 18E as being 13 weeks long.
No, it's 14 wks...IMO still not long enough. I'm fighting to get another week added, and there are discussions in the "big house/white elephant" to get some time back.
We shall see
craigepo
02-11-2010, 17:10
How much time do you need to learn to say "Can't make commo---solar flares" or "help me tie this canteen to this antenna wire and throw it over a tree" or "hey junior bravo, carry 30 pounds worth of batteries"?
Na, I think the request for more time is centered more toward the "hey, why does my laptop not work after I looked at all that porn?" type questions that we get from the Sr Bravo types. Remember, there are now at least 2x computers per member of the detachment, and at least that many radios....... I say send the studs out to OK again, there is something to be said humpin' 120 lbs of crap up and down those mountains, as long as you aint looking for the ever elusive "ground shitter"......... LOL. Just my .02$ though
Has the 18E course been shortened again? I just read two SORB pubs that list 18E as being 13 weeks long.
My youngest, (age 8) just passed Morse Code, 7 GPM tonight over the phone with his old man. 20 Group message, no errors, 100%, 5/5.
Msg as follows:
W6D DE J6D 1900MST 021910 20 GRP BT
SOLME DUHND VOLUN AUION QWEUI
CPOIZ DJUWM CLOQH XNUET XPOII
QPMBE ZFRED GOINQ XVTRE ROIPZ
QCGFT ZXHTY CVSDI ZNXVC EUYTV
BT AR
longrange1947
02-20-2010, 08:22
Way too much reliance on technology! One EMP and all the fancy radios go bye bye and only old CW tube radios will work.
WetDog - Nice, I remember the old requirements on Oki with 1st SFAsia of everyone on the team passing 5 - 5 after setting up a radio and antennae that they cut to freq, encrypting, sending, receiving reply and de-crypting.
Times do change. :munchin
Way too much reliance on technology! One EMP and all the fancy radios go bye bye and only old CW tube radios will work.
WetDog - Nice, I remember the old requirements on Oki with 1st SFAsia of everyone on the team passing 5 - 5 after setting up a radio and antennae that they cut to freq, encrypting, sending, receiving reply and de-crypting.
Times do change. :munchin
My son said, "Dad, I want to be really good at using most things, and be borderline expert with a few of them".
I'm betting his follows your path with long rifiles, but for now he's into making primitive tools and weapons.
In the "olden days" there were AN/GRC-109's and there were coder bursters and there were large and heavy hand crank generators. I am glad all of that is gone for today's SF soldiers.
We also had slide rules, and (I am not making this up) we practiced making demolition timers from a pocket watch.
Yes, if "the big one" hits and the world is dazzled with Electro Magnetic Pulses that fry some A-Team's communications electronics, then ... to be blunt ... making commo with the FOB or the B Team will be the least of our worries.
That EMP will also fry the entire bushel basket of military acronyms: JSTARS, JDAMS, etc. but also cell phones/towers, electric transmission grids, medical equipment, even automotive electronics.
Life in the area will quickly revert to a state of nature, and as Mr. Jeremy Bentham said even before there was an American Republic:
"Life in a state of nature is cold, miserable, nasty, brutish,... and short."
If we were to assume a "backup" communication system of IMC with manual keying and (JOCASTA)/(DIANA) one-time pads should still be taught and practiced, remember that we would still need the "back end" at the Signal Company to receive, and decrypt the traffic.
And as much as I enjoyed the Scrabble/Jumble/Scramlets of breaking commo back at the SFOB (and I did it well enough to pocket yet another AAM for two weeks work, and kept a few A teams with a C1 rating*), it seems just plain silly to expect IMC and manual keying to be a viable communications skill set.
IM(NH)O it ranks alongside teaching "knapping flint into arrowheads" and "mixing your own black powder" as relics of long ago that need not be taught to todays SF soldiers.
* Which also makes unnecessary ... again in my opinion ... for the commo NCO to "pay his dues" at signal company before heading out to the team. Whatever benefit there may have been from receiving/working off of earphones and [whatever those psuedo-8 track tape recorders were called], and then breaking commo onto a one-time pad is long since gone.