View Full Version : Aimpoint or E O Tech
Smokin Joe
03-03-2004, 08:09
Gentlemen,
I'm in the market for either an Aimpoint M2 or an E O tech 552.A65.
I am torn though as to which one to get, being that they are both comparably priced.
I have throughly read through the reflex thread located here (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211) I just can't make up my mind. I have shot the Aimpoints before but I have never shot an E O tech, nor do I know anyone (around here) who has one so a test fire is most likely out of the question.
This is for a work M-4gery (no rails though :( ) I have put together.
Engagement ranges will be 50 yards and in (maybe 100 yards once in great awhile).
Would you guys please chime in with your opinions on which one you personally perfer as a sighting system? Or if given the option which one you would buy?
Thank you for your time I really appericate it.
Can an aimpoint perform under these conditions?
http://www.eotech-inc.com/images/obstruct.gif
Psywar1-0
03-03-2004, 09:37
I like both equally well. The only advantages that the Eotech has IMHO is a more common battery and In my case I dont have to dismount the scope to change batteries.
Im sure you could pick up an Eotech real cheap in Bogota or atlanta right now :mad:
Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 10:18
Funny you mention that Psywar...
I was moping through the Atlanta airport a while back and talking to my wife about how much I wanted to buy an Eotech for my M4clone. Anyway, this airport employee guy must have overheard me and comes up to me and tells me he had one for sale for $100.00 cash. I told him that was a deal and asked why he was selling it. He said he had no need for it anymore and decided to get something with magnification anyway. Damn that was lucky for me... The friggin Eotech ( has the night vision capability and uses AA batteries) works great and I really love it ESPECIALLY getting it so cheap from that airport bag checker!!!
SOme people are just luck I guess.
Anyway, why would it be cheaper in Bogota or Atlanta???
Psywar1-0
03-03-2004, 15:57
Because mine was stolen last week out of my bag either in Bogota or Atlanta.
Can you describe the stolen item, Mr. Psywar? :D
The Reaper
03-03-2004, 18:24
Originally posted by Psywar1-0
Because mine was stolen last week out of my bag either in Bogota or Atlanta.
What a coincidence!
At the range cited, I would prefer the Aimpoint.
Had one for over two years, used regularly, haven't changed a battery yet, so I don't see battery size as an issue.
TR
militarymoron
03-04-2004, 19:36
i'm a bit torn between them, too. i've been using the aimpoint for a few years and the eotech 551 for about a year. here's my .02
dot - i prefer the eotech. i like the 1moa center dot for more precise shooting and the large circle for close-range shooting. surprisingly, the eotech dot seems clearer to me.
sight picture - the eotech is more 'open' with less in your field of view. another thing you can do with the aimpoint is when your battery starts running low and you lose dot intensity, you can flip the front scope cap closed and use it as an occluded eye gunsight (OEG). flipping the front cap closed increases the contrast to the background, almost doubling the perceived intensity.
switch - the eotech is easy to turn on, but it's slower to turn the intensity up or down. more difficult to turn the eotech off, especially with gloves (needs two fingers). however, it's got the auto shut-off that the aimpoint doesn't have. i've left the aimpoint on before, and it's also turned on accidentally (knob rubs the gun case and turns on) and i've drained the battery.
battery life - no contest here. i've got the 551 with the little N cells. aimpoint wins hands down, although the rev F eotech is supposed to have improved battery life.
mounting - i've never heard of a failure, but the eotech only uses one screw. i'd like to see two. the aimpoint allows more choices in mounting height. if you use an ARMS SIR (not bi-level), the eotech will not co-witness with your irons - it's too high. co-witnesses perfectly on a flat-top.
bottom line is that you can't go wrong with either and it boils down to personal preference and what of their different features are most important to you - they're both excellent sights.
cheers,
MM
The Reaper
03-04-2004, 19:58
Originally posted by Guy
Can an aimpoint perform under these conditions?
http://www.eotech-inc.com/images/obstruct.gif
Guy:
They are just "looking around the visual obstruction". An Aimpoint works the same way, just like you can close the front Butler Creek cap and use the sight as an OEG. You don't need to see the target through the lens at short ranges, just a properly zeroed reticle.
TR
Smokin Joe
03-04-2004, 21:22
Thank you all. I really appericate it, I'm still really on the fence and can't decide.
MM:
Great site you have, keep up the great work.
Gentlemen,
Lets say I go with an aimpoint which mounting device do you personally perfer/ recommend?
Thank you in advance for any and all help.
The Reaper
03-04-2004, 21:36
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Thank you all. I really appericate it, I'm still really on the fence and can't decide.
MM:
Great site you have, keep up the great work.
Gentlemen,
Lets say I go with an aimpoint which mounting device do you personally perfer/ recommend?
Thank you in advance for any and all help.
ARMS #22M68, or the KAC Cantilevered.
Email or PM MSTN, he sells them, and is who I bought my Comp M2 and #22M68 from.
TR
Smokin Joe
03-04-2004, 21:44
Thank you TR.
Does the ARMS #22 mount allow for Co-witnessing?
The Reaper
03-04-2004, 21:54
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Thank you TR.
Does the ARMS #22 mount allow for Co-witnessing?
It does with the right spacer and depends on whether you are doing a direct receiver mount, or on a rail, like the ARMS #38.
TR
militarymoron
03-04-2004, 21:57
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Thank you TR.
Does the ARMS #22 mount allow for Co-witnessing?
the GG&G cantilever or standard mounts are both good - very similar to the KAC ones, but the GG&G ones have spare battery compartments.
(not TR, but i'll throw in my .02) with the ARMS #22M68, you'll probably need the full spacer to co-witness with the irons when mounted on the flat top. (haha, TR types faster than i do)
i use aimpoint reail-grabber mount myself, and haven't had any complaints. however, the locking knob sticks out on the left side and some have found it pokes or gets in the way. i'm a leftie, so it doesn't bother me.
thanks for the kind words - glad u like the site.
cheers,
MM
Smokin Joe
03-04-2004, 22:30
The Trijicon is going back in the box, and I would like to go with as clean a mount as I can find. I too am left handed so I'm not worried about a thumb stud sticking out the lefthand side of the rifle.
I would like to go directly onto the flat-top reciever with out having to jack around with any risers or spacers. But on the other side of the coin if the risers and spacers are clean and neet then I wouldn't have a problem using them. I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S. so the less b.s. the better.
Team Sergeant
03-04-2004, 22:39
One bit of advice, when it boils down to an almost 50-50 split, and both will do pretty much the same job, go for the comfort and ease of use. If you're already familiar with one and have gained some experience using it than go with it. That’s always worked for me.
Team Sergeant
Smokin Joe
03-04-2004, 22:43
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
One bit of advice, when it boils down to an almost 50-50 split, and both will do pretty much the same job, go for the comfort and ease of use. If you're already familiar with one and have gained some experience using it than go with it. That’s always worked for me.
Team Sergeant
Damn good point. Go with what you know, less of a learning curve.
Okay Aimpoint it is.
militarymoron
03-04-2004, 23:16
and here's the GG&G cantilever ring mount - it'll set the aimpoint at the right height to co-witness (lower third of the tube).
http://gggaz.com/products/apcantring.php
and here's a riskier but cheaper place to get one (make sure you call to see if they have it in stock before ordering):
http://www.botachtactical.com/gggaimcanmou.html
cheers,
MM
The Reaper
03-05-2004, 06:21
Originally posted by militarymoron
and here's the GG&G cantilever ring mount - it'll set the aimpoint at the right height to co-witness (lower third of the tube).
http://gggaz.com/products/apcantring.php
and here's a riskier but cheaper place to get one (make sure you call to see if they have it in stock before ordering):
http://www.botachtactical.com/gggaimcanmou.html
cheers,
MM
Good advice, mm. Except that I would stay away from Botach even then, based on my personal experience ordering from them.
Good luck with your Aimpoint!
TR
My preferences are:
EOTECH 552 mounted on a carrying handle.
1. I'm not a big fan of the rail system with a flip up sight.
a) A lot of people forget to flip the rear sight up.
b) The optics are mounted so far back...that you can't flip the rear sight if need be.
c) There is nothing to protect the rear sight from being knocked out of alignment.
d) Watch how much unnecessary shit people mount on the weapon...like it's going to make them a better shooter.:eek:
Just my .01 cents
Psywar1-0
03-05-2004, 08:09
Guy,
Have you tried a Cut Carry handle or LMT BUIS?
militarymoron
03-05-2004, 10:01
Originally posted by The Reaper
Good advice, mm. Except that I would stay away from Botach even then, based on my personal experience ordering from them.
TR
yeah, usually i wouldn't recommend botach, but they got a sale on that item right now for $159, which is $53 less than anywhere else - thought it'd might be worth the risk.
my orders with botach in the past have been both hit and miss, but sometimes the sale prices are just cheap enough to give them another shot, as much as i hate to. caveat emptor.
cheers,
MM
No I have not. I try to stay away from attachments that screw on...especially if it's a critical item. Like front or rear sights. :D
Psywar1-0
03-05-2004, 10:34
Guy, I understand completly.
I was sharing a base camp with a couple teams and saw how some had broke their flip up BUIS's in not so hard use. I am now a convert to the Cut Carry handle sight. But will be checking out a LMT real soon. I think the non flip up is the best of both worlds. If you mount your optic far enough forward you can still attach a NVG behind it, but in front of the BUIS.
Im no fan of NVG's on M4s, but a borrowed PVS-14 is better than a ANVIS5 that has you slaved to a flight helmet.
FullGallop
03-05-2004, 12:45
I can vouch for the LMT buis as being a quality piece of equiptment. I've never lost zero with the thing and it is far more robust than any other buis I've handled, especially when compared to the flip up sights.
Granted mine has never seen combat conditions but it is essentially a refined cut-carry handle. One thing I like is that the sidewalls that protect the aperatures are straighter and don't give you the trough effect that a normal CH gives.
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 13:20
FWIW,
I made the decision to go with the Aimpoint M2 with a GG&G Cantilever mount. (Just in case I ever get rich and invest in a NVG scope)
Total price: A lot of friggin money, but I think I got a good price on it from lightfighter. I look at it this way buy nice or buy twice.
Gentlemen thank you all for your input it really helped.
Psywar:
Here is what we use...
http://www.specwargear.com/images/nightvision-pvs21-1.gif
http://www.specwargear.com/images/nightvision-pvs21-4.jpg
http://www.specwargear.com/images/nightvision-pvs21-3.jpg
Joe:
Just by the way that aimpoint is mounted...I wouldn't use it. To easy to knock out of whack.
Psywar1-0
03-05-2004, 17:54
Guy,
Now thats nice! All the bennies of both a Dual and single tube., able to be worn on both helmets and stand alone. Are those goggles approved for Aviation use?
Biggest problem for my gig is that guys who spend time on the ground are the minority in the big aviation world.
This looks like something that everyone could use.
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 18:58
I just recieved an e-mail from Lightfighter stating they are on back order so I may not be getting that setup after all.
I'm going to check with MSTN.
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 18:59
TR,
Sir, would you mine posting a pic of your Aimpoint setup?
I might be re-thinking the cantilever setup.
Thank you.
Psywar1-0
03-05-2004, 19:06
Im not TR, but here is my M4 with a KAC Cantlever mount. Yes the mount is "Backwards" but I like it that way.
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 19:21
Thank you Psywar.
I unfortunately do not have a RAS or RIS so that config would not work for me.
However, how do you like the cantilever?
Originally posted by Psywar1-0
Guy,
Now thats nice! All the bennies of both a Dual and single tube., able to be worn on both helmets and stand alone. Are those goggles approved for Aviation use?
Biggest problem for my gig is that guys who spend time on the ground are the minority in the big aviation world.
This looks like something that everyone could use.
I'm not for sure however here are the specs...
http://www.sts-eo.com/USA/pvs21.html
The Reaper
03-05-2004, 21:20
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
TR,
Sir, would you mine posting a pic of your Aimpoint setup?
I might be re-thinking the cantilever setup.
Thank you.
One of my Aimpoint set-ups.
IIRC, this one has a full spacer.
TR
The Reaper
03-05-2004, 21:22
This is an MSTN built rifle with the cantilevered mount (oriented correctly), among other goodies.
TR
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 21:52
Do you perfer the Arms #22 over the cantilever?
Beatiful hardware. Thank you for posting the photos.
The Reaper
03-05-2004, 22:09
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Do you perfer the Arms #22 over the cantilever?
Beatiful hardware. Thank you for posting the photos.
I do.
It is a quick release, while being accurate and repeatable enough for the optic.
Of course, if you want yours mounted forward directly over the delta ring, you have to go with the cantilevered mount.
TR
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 22:38
I have not messed around with either the cantilever or the Arms #22 so I don't know which one I would perfer. It just seems that the farther forward on the rifle the sight is the quicker it would be to acquire.
Is that right? Or at a certain pont is the sight not very easy to acquire?
Also with the spacer are the BUIS still co-witnessed?
FullGallop
03-05-2004, 22:47
ARMS now makes a cantilevered full spacer for the #22 that looks like it is built the same way as the normal spacer (robust) but will allow you to move the optic over the delta ring. I think MSTN has them.
Take care...
Smokin Joe
03-05-2004, 23:04
Has anyone used one of these?
Any thoughts pros or cons you can come up with?
Psywar1-0
03-06-2004, 00:09
Joe,
I really prefer the Cantlever. I had an ARMS mount that I used on the RASII hump, but it kept comming loose. I have alot of customer loyalty to KAC, and the short time I used the ARMS mount made me feel dirty LOL.
You said you dont have a rail system, I would seriously consider picking one up. The RIS or RAS and get the SAS Bottom Rail upgrade. That way you can mount the scope as far forward as possible. Used systems show up over on the Equipment exchange on AR15.com on a regular basis.
Luke
Smokin Joe
03-06-2004, 13:43
Originally posted by Psywar1-0
Joe,
I really prefer the Cantlever. I had an ARMS mount that I used on the RASII hump, but it kept comming loose. I have alot of customer loyalty to KAC, and the short time I used the ARMS mount made me feel dirty LOL.
You said you dont have a rail system, I would seriously consider picking one up. The RIS or RAS and get the SAS Bottom Rail upgrade. That way you can mount the scope as far forward as possible. Used systems show up over on the Equipment exchange on AR15.com on a regular basis.
Luke
Thanks Luke but I just shot my savings on the sight and mount so it will be a couple more months until I can pick up a SIR, RAS, or RIS. I really want a rail system I just can't afford it right now.
I will start checking over on AR-15.com thanks again for the tip.
What is with the SAS bottom rail upgrade I don't think I have ever seen/ heard of one.
militarymoron
03-06-2004, 19:27
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
What is with the SAS bottom rail upgrade I don't think I have ever seen/ heard of one.
not really needed unless you plan on doing muzzle strikes - so the bottom half of the RIS won't pop off during one.
cheers,
MM
Smokin Joe
03-13-2004, 19:19
Wooooo hooooo,
I got the Aimpoint Comp M2 w/ pri mount in today. I will post photos later.
THANK YOU WES.
The Reaper
03-13-2004, 19:27
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Wooooo hooooo,
I got the Aimpoint Comp M2 w/ pri mount in today. I will post photos later.
THANK YOU WES.
Same place I got mine.
Wes is good people, the optic is a good piece of gear.
He is a wealth of knowledge about what works as well.
TR
FullGallop
03-13-2004, 20:12
I totally agree. He knows his stuff and his stuff works.
Wes has top notch service as well and he does'nt mind spending the time on customers. Something so many online stores don't even bother with.
Let us know how you like the PRI mount. IRRC, I think Wes had something to do with it's initial design.
Take care....
NousDefionsDoc
03-13-2004, 22:02
Congratulations Joe.
Smokin Joe
03-13-2004, 22:16
Thank you all for your advice you are absolutely right about Wes, great guy.
Okay here are some photos of it I know you have all seen one before but I just have to share the love (the misses doesn't appericate it as much as you all will).
Oh BTW while mounting the sight my dumb ass put to much pressure on one of the torq's and snapped it inside the mount. The good news is, Wes said it is alright and that 3 out of the 4 torq's will hold it sufficiently to shoot tomorrow...feeeww I thought I really screwed up.
Anyways enjoy all, also if you have any tips on a better photo i.e. more light or use of a tripod let me know.
Smokin Joe
03-13-2004, 22:17
Last one I don't want the Team Sergeant getting pissed at me for waisting bandwith
militarymoron
03-14-2004, 00:15
SJ,
the pics look fine and show what you want them to. i like the top pic better because of the uncluttered background and lighting. the bottom one has some glare (using a flash?). try a couple of daylight shots with a neutral background, on a bright overcast day (to minimize shadows). also experiment with different angles besides straight side shots. you can also place the rifle away from the background so that less shadows are cast (like placing the stock and the barrel on two chairs and shooting towards the ground).
when it comes to lighting to show product detail (not arsty shots), think bright and diffused.
good job! oh, and nice setup! the irons co-witness ok? how do you like the sight picture?
cheers,
MM
Smokin Joe
03-14-2004, 00:27
NDD,
Thank you, I plan to bet may hours of fun out of it.
MM,
Yup, the GG&G M.A.D. co-witness almost perfectly. Flipping up the rear sight and acquiring a "normal sight picture" the red dot sits point of aim point of impact (like the dot on a standard glock sight). I have not shot it yet so I don't know for sure, but tomorrow I will be able to report how "out of the box" close it is to perfectly co-witnessed.
I will also play around with some more pics later. Thanks again for the advice.
Smokin Joe
03-15-2004, 21:50
No new photos yet. (I know your all on the edge of your seats for my lastest work of art)
I got a chance to shoot the Aimpoint sunday. It took a little getting used to the adjustment with it being L/up and R/up I'm used to the standard windage and elevation, but no BFD.
The site is great I couldn't believe how quick it is. Moving and engaging multiple targets wow, good stuff.
Thank you all for you input and recommedations on the Aimpoint, I am extremely happy with it.
I read about the New "F" updates on their website, but does anyone know where to get one?
Team Sergeant
03-17-2004, 15:05
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Last one I don't want the Team Sergeant getting pissed at me for waisting bandwith
You post the pics, I take care of the bandwidth.
(We've got no bandwidth problem.)
TS
Sacamuelas
03-17-2004, 15:10
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Oh BTW while mounting the sight my dumb ass put to much pressure on one of the torq's and snapped it inside the mount.
Joe-
I am not familiar with the aimpoint mount, but from the looks of things(thanks to your new found detailed online picture taking expertise) it may be very easy to remove that broken bolt and replace it.
It appears to be sticking out far enough out of the bottom of the mount to take a dremmel or something similar and put a single slit in the protruding bolt end that is stivking out of the bottom. Make it wide enough for a small screwdriver to fit and then just continue to screw the remaining piece of the bolt out of the bottom of the mount. I am sure you could get a replacement torq bolt and your new sight would be good as new.
Just a suggestion, hope it works. No shame there, that sounds exactly like something I would do/have done when trying "home plumbing 101" with compression fitting connections.
"if this tight is good, why not turn it one more.... SNAP!! " LOL
Joe,
Your MAD look cock-eyed to me
http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=22281
http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=22276
I will get a pic of it flat on a receiver tomorrow.
Ditto to Wes - both excellent products and helpful info
Pics did not go direct?
Size restriction?
The Reaper
03-17-2004, 18:15
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Joe-
I am not familiar with the aimpoint mount, but from the looks of things(thanks to your new found detailed online picture taking expertise) it may be very easy to remove that broken bolt and replace it.
It appears to be sticking out far enough out of the bottom of the mount to take a dremmel or something similar and put a single slit in the protruding bolt end that is stivking out of the bottom. Make it wide enough for a small screwdriver to fit and then just continue to screw the remaining piece of the bolt out of the bottom of the mount. I am sure you could get a replacement torq bolt and your new sight would be good as new.
LOL
Good suggestion. That or lock it up with a set of locking pliers and unscrew it.
So, Toothpuller, you got much experience with a Dremel tool or high speed drill?
TR
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 20:30
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Joe-
I am not familiar with the aimpoint mount, but from the looks of things(thanks to your new found detailed online picture taking expertise) it may be very easy to remove that broken bolt and replace it.
It appears to be sticking out far enough out of the bottom of the mount to take a dremmel or something similar and put a single slit in the protruding bolt end that is stivking out of the bottom. Make it wide enough for a small screwdriver to fit and then just continue to screw the remaining piece of the bolt out of the bottom of the mount. I am sure you could get a replacement torq bolt and your new sight would be good as new.
Just a suggestion, hope it works. No shame there, that sounds exactly like something I would do/have done when trying "home plumbing 101" with compression fitting connections.
"if this tight is good, why not turn it one more.... SNAP!! " LOL
Great Idea DOC but I don't have enough material sticking out the bottom to do it....its most likely going to be a drill job
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 20:31
Top view
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 20:34
Originally posted by KevinB
Joe,
Your MAD look cock-eyed to me
http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=22281
http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=22276
I will get a pic of it flat on a receiver tomorrow.
Ditto to Wes - both excellent products and helpful info
Umm I have never had a problem with it, but I'm sure I don't shoot as well as you all do so I may not notice it. Tell me what you think?
Sacamuelas
03-17-2004, 20:38
Originally posted by The Reaper
So, Toothpuller, you got much experience with a Dremel tool or high speed drill?
TR
Yes Sir, been known to be good with a HS drill, scalpel, currete, needle, custom wax creations and castings, or "dremmel" work. Some of my "cliente femenino" even call me an "artista"! :D
If its broke, made of metal/wood/plastic/composite, then I probably have something in my lab that I can rig to fix it or make a new one. Although, my version of the dremmel is a little pricier at work (@$800.00).
Smokin Joe,
(***edited)
Will look at the new pics. Maybe something can be tried easier than drilling out and retapping the threads.
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 20:44
Thanks Sacemulas,
I have more up close photos of my little blunder it you would like.
Sacamuelas
03-17-2004, 20:48
Joe-
Looking from the top, how far down is the bolt broken off? Is it still sticking up into the top overlaying cover that is clamped down to hold the sight in place? Or is it broken off own into the actual lower portion of the mount?
Surgicalcric
03-17-2004, 20:51
A screw extractor should do the job.
sears link (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?vertical=TOOL&pid=00967372000&bidsite=&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes)
http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/67372/00967372000-dlv.jpg
The Reaper
03-17-2004, 20:52
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Great Idea DOC but I don't have enough material sticking out the bottom to do it....its most likely going to be a drill job
Uhh...
What does it look like from the side if you take the other three screws out and the top half off?
Other choice is an EZE-Out, and I hate them.
BTW, that ring shaped mark down inside the screw hole is where the Torx screw bottomed out. That would probably have been a good place to stop, Zog.:D
TR
Sacamuelas
03-17-2004, 20:57
Looks like TR and I are thinking the same way...
Just to clarify my prior posted questions:
If you take off the top half, is there any part of the bolt sticking out? Is it at least flush with the top of the lower half where you could cut a sclice into it with the top portion removed?
James.... come on. You have to get your SF mindset warmed up. We are working this in NDD's favorite UWOA type environment. ;) LOL Well, at least in the don't have access to Sears and likely have to rethread the mount scenario.
Just kidding... good suggestion. I have never used a screw remover like in your link.
Surgicalcric
03-17-2004, 21:15
EZE-outs are a pain to use, especially is you are using them with a hand drill. Now if you had a vertical milling maching or drill press it would be much easier.
Sacamuelas: I know you are not trying to pull out the UWOA card after making a recommendation to use a dremmel tool.
Sacamuelas
03-17-2004, 21:18
What I meant by "dremmel" was a stone sharpened hacksaw blade run on pure old fashioned elbow grease power.... ;)
You know I was kidding cric.
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 21:48
Side view
Sacamuelas
03-17-2004, 21:58
Here is what I was referring to Joe.
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 22:49
Like this?
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 22:50
Ultro Mas
Smokin Joe
03-17-2004, 22:52
As you can see Sacemulas I'm f*cked I have to drill it out.
Joe,
You shoudl be still able to get enough of an angle to cut into the screw to make a trench to put a small screw driver in.
The Reaper
03-18-2004, 00:32
Originally posted by KevinB
Joe,
You shoudl be still able to get enough of an angle to cut into the screw to make a trench to put a small screw driver in.
Unless he Red Loc-tited them first.
TR
Sacamuelas
03-18-2004, 07:54
Originally posted by The Reaper
Unless he Red Loc-tited them first.
TR
Very true Sir.
I agree with Kevin B, Joe. From the look of your pic, you have access to the top of the bolt. Do you have anything that you can use to drill a notch into that bolt? I realize that a standard dremmel cutting disc can't be used as it would cut into the mount too. You will need a bur(drill bit) verses a disc so that you can cut only the bolt when you put the notch in.
I wish you were closer, I have the hundreds of little diamond burs that would do the trick. Again, this fix is assuming you haven't loc-tited it in. If you did, then make sure you use a drill press to prevent the weeble-wobble drill monster from attacking your sight too. LOL
Good luck
Smokin Joe
03-18-2004, 08:04
Originally posted by The Reaper
Unless he Red Loc-tited them first.
TR
Thankfully I did no Loc-tite them in.
Sacemulas I do have a dremel, however I know I don't have a bur bit or anything small enough to cut a slit in the screw.
Do you have a pic of what type of bit your talking about or do you know where I could pick one up?
Thank you for the help and ideas Gentlemen. I was about to give up on the damn thing and take it to a gunsmith to fix.
Sacamuelas
03-18-2004, 08:26
I am at work.. I will have to scrounge my cheapo office digital cam and shoot a pic of them.
I''ll be back after my 08:30-9:30 patient.
BTW- yes, I will send you one in the mail. Quit beating around the bush JOE- just ask!!! ;) LOL LOL Just not sure if it will cut as efficently as it would if I could do it since my drill runs at 300,000 rpms verses a your standard drill around 25-30k.
Team Sergeant
03-18-2004, 08:39
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Thankfully I did not Loc-tite them in. "Because I have the gentle touch of a large African Silverback Guerrilla I don’t need no stinking Loc-tite”
Say it with me Joe, “Torque Wrench.”
Team Sergeant
Smokin Joe
03-18-2004, 08:54
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Say it with me Joe, “Torque Wrench.”
Team Sergeant
LOL
Smokin Joe
03-18-2004, 08:56
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I am at work.. I will have to scrounge my cheapo office digital cam and shoot a pic of them.
I''ll be back after my 08:30-9:30 patient.
BTW- yes, I will send you one in the mail. Quit beating around the bush JOE- just ask!!! ) LOL LOL Just not sure if it will cut as efficently as it would if I could do it since my drill runs at 300,000 rpms verses a your standard drill around 25-30k.
I can run that bit in a standard drill?
I'm not worried about the speed I will just use more leverage and force to compensate :D
Sacamuelas
03-18-2004, 09:38
Friggin camera rechargeable battery is dead...
SOMEONE didn't do their job here at the office. :mad:
Anyway, Joe just shoot me a Pm with a mailing address. I will put a few different burs in an envelope and send them this afternoon.
They are extremely small headed/small shank burs but most standard drills adjust down to where the prongs will actually touch each other so they should tighten down onto these burs too. I am sending a few carbide burs with a diamond or two that may work just as good, they just tend to dull down quickly so change it out if it cuts to slowly.
A dremmel is a friction grip that is only set for a certain size shank so these will not work in a dremmel. Your regular drill should work though.
Remember, use lube and light pressure- let the DRILL and bur do the work not you muscle man. LOL hahaha Take you time... these burs are not going to rip into that metal...let them do their magic.
Your first cut notch needs to be deep enough to allow for adequate torque to be put on the bolt with the screwdriver. If you make it to shallow, you will buggar up the top of the bolt and have to cut farther down into the bolt which will be harder to access as you get down into the mount itself.
Good thing is... as long as you don't cut into the mount- you can do no more harm than you alreay have. You will always be able to bring it to a gunsmith and get it taken out. Good Luck
Smokin Joe
03-18-2004, 10:11
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Friggin camera rechargeable battery is dead...
SOMEONE didn't do their job here at the office. :mad:
Anyway, Joe just shoot me a Pm with a mailing address. I will put a few different burs in an envelope and send them this afternoon.
They are extremely small headed/small shank burs but most standard drills adjust down to where the prongs will actually touch each other so they should tighten down onto these burs too. I am sending a few carbide burs with a diamond or two that may work just as good, they just tend to dull down quickly so change it out if it cuts to slowly.
A dremmel is a friction grip that is only set for a certain size shank so these will not work in a dremmel. Your regular drill should work though.
Remember, use lube and light pressure- let the DRILL and bur do the work not you muscle man. LOL hahaha Take you time... these burs are not going to rip into that metal...let them do their magic.
Your first cut notch needs to be deep enough to allow for adequate torque to be put on the bolt with the screwdriver. If you make it to shallow, you will buggar up the top of the bolt and have to cut farther down into the bolt which will be harder to access as you get down into the mount itself.
Good thing is... as long as you don't cut into the mount- you can do no more harm than you alreay have. You will always be able to bring it to a gunsmith and get it taken out. Good Luck
Thanks Sacamuelas,
PM Inbound
Sacamuelas
03-18-2004, 11:37
Its sent. BTW- I would go ahead and start hitting that sucker with a little drop or two of penetrating oil...since you torqued it tight enough to break the bolt then you may want to lessen the amount of force used with the screwdriver to remove it by any way possible. :lifter
edited to add:
Kevin B.- I sent you a PM a while ago. You may want to change your PM settings to pop a box up or something when you get one.
Ambush Master
03-18-2004, 11:47
You can get smaller collets for the Dremel !! They make several different sizes.
Also, Heat up the Base with a Hot Hair Drier and the Aluminum should expand faster that the Steel Screw and make it easier to extract!!! Also, repeated heating and cooling will "work" the penetrating oil down into the threads.
Smokin Joe
03-18-2004, 13:42
Is Tri-Flow a good penetrating oil? Or should I stick with CLP?
Smokin Joe
03-23-2004, 09:44
Well Gentlemen I did it I unscrewed my screw up.
Thank you Sacamuelas for the bits they were invaluable.
I tried your idea of drilling several holes in line to try and get a screwdriver in there to unscrew the torque but it didn't work. (Mind you I don't have a drill press just a drill stabilizer) The drill kept slipping in to the original hole. So, I just pre-drilled the hole then used a 3/32nd titanium bit to drill the screw all the way out AND IT DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH THE THREADS ON THE INSIDE OF THE MOUNT. :eek:
I was ecstatic I couldn't believe it.
Thanks again for your help and ideas guys you saved me. (Yet again)
Photos to follow this evening.
Sacamuelas
03-23-2004, 22:22
That is great news Joe. Congrats...
NOw , remember what the Team Sergeant said..... TORQUE WRENCH!!! LOL :lifter
Smokin Joe
03-24-2004, 21:49
Here is a pic of my B.S. drill press so you can appericate why the bit kept slipping.
Smokin Joe
03-24-2004, 21:51
After about a half hour of fighting with by B.S. press before I finally used a 3/32nd bit to finish the job.
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Here is a pic of my B.S. drill press so you can appericate why the bit kept slipping.
That ain't a drill press...that's a thingamajig!
Smokin Joe
03-26-2004, 08:14
Originally posted by Guy
That ain't a drill press...that's a thingamajig!
Aboslutely....I couldn't justifiy buying a 100+ dollar drill press just to drill out this torque....so I used what I already had on hand. It sucked pretty bad using it but in the end it did what I needed it to do.:)
The Reaper
03-27-2004, 19:55
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Is Tri-Flow a good penetrating oil? Or should I stick with CLP?
Nothing I have seen penetrates better than Kroil. It is even better than 3 in 1, Marvel Mystery Oil.
Strong stuff!
TR
Kroil? Have to remember that one, one of the best I have used so far was PB Blaster. Mopar and GM both have pretty good branded rust penetrators. I also like LH Drill Extractors, not sure if they make them small enough for gunsmith work though.
The Reaper
03-27-2004, 22:25
Originally posted by ktek01
Kroil? Have to remember that one, one of the best I have used so far was PB Blaster. Mopar and GM both have pretty good branded rust penetrators. I also like LH Drill Extractors, not sure if they make them small enough for gunsmith work though.
You can get Kroil from Brownells, MidwayUSA, or direct from the Kano factory.
It is a great bore cleaner adjunct as well. There is no comparison between WD-40, Liquid Wrench, etc. and Kroil from
Kano Labs.
Kroil is a creeping oil, it will eat rust crystals, and it will creep into
spaces as tight as 1/1,000,000th of an inch.
There is no equal to Kroil.
"Mfr: KANO LABS
The Oil That Creeps
A lubricating and penetrating oil that flows into the tiniest of crevices, lifts away lead and copper jacket fouling, frees up super-tight barrels, loosens frozen screws and bolts. Dissolves dried grease and oil, displaces water, without harming metal. Works great for getting underneath and loosening built-up carbon, copper and lead fouling in shotgun, rifle and pistol barrels.
SPECS: Kroil Pour Can - 8 fl.oz (237 ml). Kroil Aerosol Can - 13 oz. (385 ml)."
TR
My experience is automotive, 12 years mostly in new car dealerships, so I never heard of Kroil before. I am however always open to trying something that may do a better job. Does the Kroil aerosol foam slightly when applied, and then slowly disappear into the fitting? The automotive penetrators I mentioned (PB Blaster, Mopar Rust Penetrator) that work very well all seem to do that. WD and Liquid Wrench are light lubricants, they don't work very well on rusted or broken fittings. I would actually rather pour some brake fluid on one if those two were all I had on hand.
The Reaper
03-27-2004, 22:49
I have never used the aerosol, just the squirt can. No foam there, sorry.
Had a shooting buddy running a large farm who was using it on his rifles. His gun room is in his shop and he grabbed the Kroil as the closest thing one day when trying to break free a rusted nut. Next day all of the other penetrating oils in the shop were in his trash and he was calling to order more Kroil.
Personally, I have rounded off some shoulders on some nuts and had them come loose after Kroil and a few minutes to sit.
The Kroil, JB Bore Paste, Shooters' Choice, and Sweets' 7.62 are my cleaning chemicals.
HTH.
TR
Originally posted by The Reaper
The Kroil, JB Bore Paste, Shooters' Choice, and Sweets' 7.62 are my cleaning chemicals.
HTH.
TR Have you ever tried mpro7 instead of the shooter's choice? I dont use the shooter's choice any more after buying a gallon of this stuff.
The Reaper
04-10-2004, 20:00
Originally posted by Hoplite
Have you ever tried mpro7 instead of the shooter's choice? I dont use the shooter's choice any more after buying a gallon of this stuff.
Negative.
I have about 1/2 gallon of the SC left, and a lot of years of using it without regret.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:06
I shot both in the last two days - I vote for the EOTECH, but both are nice.
Smokin Joe
05-15-2004, 22:38
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I shot both in the last two days - I vote for the EOTECH, but both are nice.
Why?
NousDefionsDoc
05-16-2004, 06:17
EO Tech was faster for me to aquire, and I like the image better.
Used the Aimpoint (Comp ML2) in the past years and was very pleased in its performance.
I used an older model Eo Tech in competition last year and found that i could accuire targets faster with it.
The Eo Tech 551 model is on the buy list at this time..
After seeing the eotech in action on several different weapons in CQB I am kind of split on the two. I was never a fan of it until now. I own 2 aimpoints but an eotech will be on my buy list as well.
Originally posted by Tuukka
Used the Aimpoint (Comp ML2) in the past years and was very pleased in its performance.
I used an older model Eo Tech in competition last year and found that i could accuire targets faster with it.
The Eo Tech 551 model is on the buy list at this time..
Tuukka-What is the Weapon on the right hand edge of this pic?
Smokin Joe
05-17-2004, 17:06
Originally posted by Air.177
Tuukka-What is the Weapon on the right hand edge of this pic?
It looks like a magazine feed pump shotgun?
Looks like a Saiga (of some variety) to me.