View Full Version : The new Special Operations Divers Badges
Trip_Wire (RIP)
08-16-2005, 15:31
This subject has been discussed on SOCNET to some extent. I didn't know that a new badge was out until I read about it there and saw a picture of it and the Sopervisor badge on that board. (I'll post that here too.)
When I attended the C-16 SFA picnic just the other day I talked to a 1st SFG(A) soldier who just returned from the school (Key West) he said that this is the badge that is awarded now. He also mentioned that they no longer do Pre-SCUBA at the school now.
I must say, that I like the new badge; however, don't care for the Supervisor badge all that much (Star placement.) Among the reasons that I like the idea of the new badge is that it is an Army badge, instead of the Navy one we have borrowed for a long time. It is also more Special Forces in its nature with the daggers, etc.
I notice that the AR has a provision to get the badge awarded retroactive. I for one plan on asking for this.
I'd like to generate some discussion here among the QPs on this badge.
Shark Bait just showed me the new badge today - nice looking badge. I think he'll be ripping his old ones off and sewing the new ones on as soon as he can get them.
With anything that is retro - you have to find out where and then submit the paperwork, if you can find it.
Oh, well. Since the course completion is in my DD 214 I could just change out the badge and claim stupidity. But then again I wore the old one for just about 20 years (SCUBA School in 75 and Div Sup around 82/83). Oh man, whats an old fart to do?
Airbornelawyer
08-16-2005, 19:27
Here is the official description of the badges from the Institute of Heraldry:
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/badges/diverbadges.htm
The Reaper
08-16-2005, 20:44
Here is the official description of the badges from the Institute of Heraldry:
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/badges/diverbadges.htm
Great, the TIoH not only gets the name of the knife wrong but also misspells it (Sykes Fairbain instead of Fairbairn Sykes, and the ones depicted in the badge are not the original First Model F-S, but appear to be the Third.
I guess a stealth rebreather is what you call a Draeger when you do not want to use the commercial name.
Nice looking badge nevertheless, and long overdue.
Congrats bubbleheads!
TR
Trip_Wire (RIP)
08-17-2005, 00:33
Great, the IoH gets the name of the knife wrong but also misspells it (Sykes Fairbain instead of Fairbairn Sykes, and the ones depicted in the badge are not the original First Model F-S, but appear to be the Third.
I guess a stealth rebreather is what you call a Draeger when you do not want to use the commercial name.
Nice looking badge nevertheless, and long overdue.
Congrats bubbleheads!
TR
TR: I thought the daggers on our crest and the new badges on the divers badges were the V-42 Daggers used by the FSSF in WW II. The ones on the divers badges really look like the V-42. The ones on most of our Regimental Crests don't look like either the Sikes or the V-42. At times they look like a Roman ahort sword, at least the pins they sell do. :D
Peregrino
08-17-2005, 08:23
This happened a while (almost a year?) ago . A friend of mine worked very hard for a long time to get this badge through. The guys in Key West developed and presented it 3-4 years ago but it was going nowhere until he took over and did the grunt work. Seems a GO signature was the last hold-up. He worked for a while to get the issue on the GO's calendar. Apparently the HALO badge was what finally set things up (not many/enough scuba qualified officers of any stripe to get the same level of attention/interest). His story - as soon as it was pointed out that the Hard-Hat divers all had their own badge but there was no apparent difference between SF divers and anybody attending the Navy's scuba course (including pregnant females and fat cooks - FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING), the GO signed and the rest is history. The retroactive stuff is apparently good to go according to what he told me two weeks ago. I'll look him up sometime in September and post the proceedures if enough people are interested. Peregrino
ETA - Though I've never understood divers' fascination with sharks. If you're going to adopt a totem animal, why not pick one that has character - like the Orca? The indigenous peoples of the PNW had a real respect for the Orca. They're highly evolved, probably very intelligent, air breathing mammals, with a pack mentality, and family structure. They're also cooperative hunters and they come with an attitude. All that vs cold-blooded, no character, evolutionary programmed eating machine. IMHO the community's fascination with sharks makes as much sense as black t-shirts and hats in the tropical noon-day sun. (I can't explain that one either.)
The Reaper
08-17-2005, 08:47
TR: I thought the daggers on our crest and the new badges on the divers badges were the V-42 Daggers used by the FSSF in WW II. The ones on the divers badges really look like the V-42. The ones on most of our Regimental Crests don't look like either the Sikes or the V-42. At times they look like a Roman ahort sword, at least the pins they sell do. :D
TW:
You know, at first, I thought that with the ringed handle and less prominent pommel, that it was a F-S third pattern, but in retrospect, I believe that you are correct, it looks more like the crown shaped pommel of the V-42.
I am sure that Mr. Harsey can elaborate more on this, but I feel that the V-42 is more correctly placed on U.S. heraldic items, since the F-S was a Brit Commando knife, made largely by Wilkinson Sword (though issued to OSS as well), and the V-42 was made by Case and was issued to the FSSF.
At one time, Mick Strider was making/going to make a nice modern redesign of the V-42. Perhaps he could address this as well.
The one on the crest definitely looks like a V-42 to me, a bit stylized in the guard and blade to fit on the lyre and arrows better.
TR
Bill Harsey
08-17-2005, 09:14
The British Fairbairn-Sykes Commando knife is the predecessor of every knife that looks remotely close to it.
Reaper is correct, the only proper historical name of that British Commando Dagger is Fairbairn-Sykes. This is evidenced by the initials "FS" etched in some of these knives.
I didn't know you guys still used that knife.
The Reaper
08-17-2005, 09:30
The British Fairbairn-Sykes Commando knife is the predecessor of every knife that looks remotely close to it.
Reaper is correct, the only proper historical name of that British Commando Dagger is Fairbairn-Sykes. This is evidenced by the initials "FS" etched in some of these knives.
I didn't know you guys still used that knife.
We don't. I am sure that you are aware of some of the weaknesses of the F-S.
As I understand it, the Agency still issued it up through the 60s.
Which do you prefer, Bill, the F-S or the V-42?
Which do you see in the new SCUBA badge and the SF Crest?
"This is evidenced by the initials "FS" etched in some of these knives."
You know where that is going to lead, Bill.
TR
Airbornelawyer
08-17-2005, 09:31
We have a long thread started by NDD on the various heraldic devices.
The V-42 has a pointed pommel, the skull crusher pommel, which distinguishes it from the F-S daggers and the OSS dagger (based on the F-S). The point is prominent on the SF crest and coat of arms: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/SF/1SpecialForces.htm. It also figures in the patches and DUIs for the theater SOCs and SOSCOM, but differs from that of USASOC and the one on the SF patch (which does look more like a Roman gladius than a dagger): http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/SpecOps/SpecialOperations.htm
The OSS dagger was based on the F-S, but wasn't made by Wilkinson. It was made by Landers, Frary & Clark.
The V-42 is used on the SF crest because the FSSF is considered the traditional ancestor of SF. But as NDD and I noted in that thread, the real antecedent of SF were the OSS's Jedburghs, OGs and Detachment 101, so the OSS dagger is appropriate for SF lineage.
All that said, the knife on the diver badges does not have the pommel of the OSS dagger, so TIOH appears to have screwed up. It looks more like a mix of various F-S types.
Here is the old thread: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15625#post15625
Airbornelawyer
08-17-2005, 09:48
The OSS Dagger is here: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=544
The V-42 is here: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=543
Attached are two variants of the Fairbairn-Sykes 2nd pattern and one of the 3rd pattern. There are other variants out there, though.
Bill Harsey
08-17-2005, 09:51
We don't. I am sure that you are aware of some of the weaknesses of the F-S.
As I understand it, the Agency still issued it up through the 60s.
Which do you prefer, Bill, the F-S or the V-42?
Which do you see in the new SCUBA badge and the SF Crest?
"This is evidenced by the initials "FS" etched in some of these knives."
You know where that is going to lead, Bill.
TR
The Commando Daggers served their purpose in their time.
Personally I prefer neither knife because of the small round handles which will not tell you where the blades edge is when you grasp the knife. This is a serious design flaw but making round handles on lathes or by casting (both were done) was a very fast way to make lots of daggers during a time of war.
The round handle was a documented problem when the knife was used in World War Two combat operations. This problem was also recognized by Fairbairn.
Reaper,
Your right about the last one.
Edited to add:
The Commando daggers were carried by many men engaged in nothing less than the freedom of the world. My remarks are about the technical details of the knife design which I have the luxury of doing because of the success of these men.
I would no sooner speak against the Fairbairn Sykes, OSS Daggers or V-42's than against the K-Bar for the same reasons.
These are historically significant knives that belong on new the diving crest.
If you're going to adopt a totem animal, why not pick one that has character - like the Orca? The indigenous peoples of the PNW had a real respect for the Orca. They're highly evolved, probably very intelligent, air breathing mammals, with a pack mentality, and family structure. They're also cooperative hunters and they come with an attitude.
Not to mention, orcas eat sharks on occasion.
alphamale
08-17-2005, 12:59
At one time, Mick Strider was making/going to make a nice modern redesign of the V-42. Perhaps he could address this as well.TR, this is a custom (I believe) V-42 that Mick did. The whole thing is drop dead gorgeous, but I love the torched flame effect on the Titanium point.
FrontSight
Bill Harsey
08-17-2005, 13:55
Which do you see in the new SCUBA badge and the SF Crest?
TR
I finally got through on the link posted by Airbornelawyer, it didn't work for me earlier today.
The image posted by Trip Wire looks like the pointed pommel of a V-42 but the image linked in the heraldic site has a blunter end.
The shape of the blade is off for being the Fairbairn Sykes which as already noted is incorrectly listed with the names reversed.
We may have to give some license to those producing the badges. There is not enough information to define exactly what knife it is they are showing.
Edited to add: Details matter in knives too. The Fairbairn-Sykes Commando Dagger had a very long narrow triangular blade, not much curve on the edges to the point.
I think the V-42 had a very narrow blade at the base therefore a bit more curve on the edge towards the point.
Many of these knives have been re-sharpened many times and may not hold the original blade shape profiles so it can be difficult to judge from old combat worn knives especially after tips have been broken and the knife re-shaped back to a working point.
Shark Bait
08-22-2005, 08:13
Here is the letter that authorizes the new badge and explains how to get the retro award. I submitted a memo and a copy of my certificate to SWC last week. I'll let you guys know if that is sufficient.
Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger, Jr., Commander, U.S. Army Special Operations Command, awards the Combat Diver Badge to instructors at the Special Forces Underwater Operations Combat Diver Course in Key West, Fla. Aug. 19. (DoD Photo by Juornalist 1st Class Trice Denny)
NousDefionsDoc
08-23-2005, 15:41
Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger, Jr., Commander, U.S. Army Special Operations Command, awards the Combat Diver Badge to instructors at the Special Forces Underwater Operations Combat Diver Course in Key West, Fla. Aug. 19. (DoD Photo by Juornalist 1st Class Trice Denny)
Why is that AF puke in there messing up that formation? ;)
Why is that AF puke in there messing up that formation? ;)
He's a beast in the water... believe me.