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NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 17:32
A 16-year-old Elmhurst High School sophomore and his father are suing Fort Wayne Community Schools over a dress code policy that saw the boy suspended for wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with the likeness of an M-16 rifle and the text of the Marine Corps creed.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/local/8078221.htm

D9
03-01-2004, 17:41
LOL, when I first saw the title of this post I thought it was a new forum rule.:D

"...Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY LIFE.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!"

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 17:49
I thought the same thing, figured NDD was cleaning house.

Nice title selection!

TR

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 17:53
Damn.. I log on when I get home from work and figured you finally decided to pick on someone besides me!! LOL

Nice title.

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 17:57
Titles and headlines are by design intended to draw the potential reader's attention to the publication.

Footmobile
03-01-2004, 18:01
Originally posted by D9
LOL, when I first saw the title of this post I thought it was a new forum rule.:D

Me too! I was like WTF!?

How dare they deny my beloved Corps!

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 18:02
not to hiijack your thread, but I think the most effective one would be...

"For the Team Sergeant, Reaper, Ambush Master, and NousdefionsDoc eyes only":D

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 18:02
DAMN!

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 18:08
I was hoping to get a discussion about the Right of Freedom of Expression that children don't have, but I guess not.

I'll bet if he had worn a Michael Moore shirt with Bush-bashing on it, it would have been ok.

CPTAUSRET
03-01-2004, 20:34
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

I'll bet if he had worn a Michael Moore shirt with Bush-bashing on it, it would have been ok.

Indubitably!

Terry

D9
03-01-2004, 21:35
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I was hoping to get a discussion about the Right of Freedom of Expression that children don't have, but I guess not.

I'll bet if he had worn a Michael Moore shirt with Bush-bashing on it, it would have been ok.

OK, I'll bite.

I'm not sure I think the right of expression extends to children doing whatever they want in school. I don't have any problem with schools dictating dress codes to children, and if I had children I wouldn't have any qualms about sending them to a school that required a uniform.

If I read you right, I understand your comments about the school embracing a double-standard. I am obviously not for different standards for students according to the political biases of the faculty. But I don't have a big problem with it because I don't have a big problem with dress codes in schools, as long as they are enforced fairly.

D9
03-01-2004, 21:36
Originally posted by The Reaper
I thought the same thing, figured NDD was cleaning house.

Nice title selection!


Ouch!

Gypsy
03-01-2004, 22:27
I'm with D9 on this subject. At what point do you draw the line in the schools with freedom of expression would be my question.

Like you said NDD some kid could come in with a slander against the President, or other vile types of expressions in general. Dress codes are ok in my book as long as it is consistently enforced. I attended Catholic school up until the 8th grade and we all wore uniforms, it cut down on the "competition" of who was wearing what designer items or how we looked in various states of dress. Instead we all looked the same for the most part, so there was more concentration on our studies.

Then again that was also back in the day (dating myself) when discipline in school meant you got it twice as bad at home for making trouble in class. And lol...the nuns would make us girls kneel on the floor and take the ruler to measure our uniform skirts...if they were above regulation (I think it was 1 inch above our knees) we would get into some big trouble!

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 22:48
Gypsy:

I am sorry, but there were too many distracting visualizations in that last post by you, and I have completely forgotten what I meant to say about our beloved Corps.:D

You are killing me here.

TR

Gypsy
03-01-2004, 23:00
Originally posted by The Reaper
Gypsy:

I am sorry, but there were too many distracting visualizations in that last post by you, and I have completely forgotten what I meant to say about our beloved Corps.:D

You are killing me here.

TR

Oops gee sorry about that TR. Shall I edit? LOL

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 23:32
Originally posted by Gypsy
Oops gee sorry about that TR. Shall I edit? LOL

Catholic schoolgirl uniforms.
Kneeling.
Discipline.
Rulers.
Short skirts.
Bad Girls.

I think you have enough for a novel there, likely a best seller.

Nuff said!

TR

Gypsy
03-02-2004, 00:11
Evidently all I need now is a title!

echoes
03-02-2004, 10:48
Interesting topic. While in high school and college, we cheerleaders wore our uniforms on game days. Football or Basketball, it was a tradition. Only now can I look back and think of the propaganda we were selling. Our uniforms included very short skirts, and tight fitting tops. Looking back now, I realize the public shools I attended were just trying to sell tickets to the games, and were using us as inticements.

I can remember some students who wore USMC or ARMY T's to school, and I thought they were just supporting the armed forces.
I saw nothing wrong with it then, and especially now, amidst all the war and terror abroad, and all the killing here at home, I say right on! More power to those students who want to show their support for Our Bravest!

Holly

Razor
03-02-2004, 11:08
The article was pretty vague regarding the specifics of the dress code. I'd have to know more about the regulation before I could create an opinion.

Adam White
03-02-2004, 11:37
Originally posted by The Reaper
Catholic schoolgirl uniforms.
Kneeling.
Discipline.
Rulers.
Short skirts.
Bad Girls.

I think you have enough for a novel there, likely a best seller.

Nuff said!

TR

For some real entertainment, enter those as search terms in Google and see what kind of websites you get :eek: .

As for the policy originally in question - my gut tells me it is part of the "zero-tolerance" BS regarding "guns." The conventional wisdom in American society is that Gun = violence. This is evident in how the term "gun-culture" has been perverted from meaning "Americans who grew up hunting / shooting and who still maintain firearms and find pleasure in their use" to "gang-banger punks who want to shoot everybody."

I have read similar articles where kids got in trouble for having gun magazines in school (such as "American Rifleman"), or drawing pictures of firearms in notebooks. I would have been SOL if they had such policies in my day. Heck, I can even remember an "invention" we had to come up with for some cheesy 7th grade class - mine was a gun to shoot bugs in the house without damaging furniture! I would have probably been expelled nowadays just due to the drawings I made with that one!

DunbarFC
03-02-2004, 11:49
Just shows you how times change

When I was a senior in high school back in 1988 all the guys regardless if you were interested or not had to go to the auditorium over a few days and hear recruiters from all the branches give a talk on what they had to offer.

That of course was followed up by the home visit to drop off some literature and try to talk to you again

Now you can't even wear a tshirt ?

Maybe it's all tshirts with slogans were barred ?

Airbornelawyer
03-02-2004, 12:30
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I was hoping to get a discussion about the Right of Freedom of Expression that children don't have, but I guess not.

I'll bet if he had worn a Michael Moore shirt with Bush-bashing on it, it would have been ok.
Of course it would have. Political expression by students is protected by the First Amendment. See Tinker v. Des Moines School District (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=393&invol=503&linkurl=http://court.it-services.nwu.edu/oyez/cases/case.pl?case_id=391&graphurl=http://oyez.nwu.edu/images/back-to-oyez.jpg), 393 U.S. 503 (1969).

The issue wasn't the Corps or any patriotic message. It was the rifle on the T-Shirt and the ridiculous "zero-tolerance" policies that lead to kids getting suspended or expelled for having toy GI Joe rifles or aspirin on school grounds. James Taranto of the online Wall Street Journal's opinion site catalogs these things in his "Zero Tolerance Watch" in the daily "Best of the Web" feature. Lef through a few of these to get a flavor of how ridiculous this has become: http://www.opinionjournal.com/search/exec/htsearch.cgi?words=zero-tolerance+watch&db=db&where=oj

NousDefionsDoc
03-02-2004, 12:45
AL,
Don't you think this zero tolerance policy is actually a way to win the ideology war? What I mean is "We will have zero tolerance for anything that refers to guns, and they'll forget guns exist. Then we can repeal the 2nd and we've won."

lrd
03-02-2004, 12:49
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
AL,
Don't you think this zero tolerance policy is actually a way to win the ideology war? What I mean is "We will have zero tolerance for anything that refers to guns, and they'll forget guns exist. Then we can repeal the 2nd and we've won." Zero tolerance applied to all aspects of the dress code in San Antonio. The kids could not wear tank tops. My daughter has broad shoulders, and it "appeared" that she was wearing a tank top even though she wasn't. She was suspended for the day.

NousDefionsDoc
03-02-2004, 12:58
Well, DAMN!

I am a zero tolerance kind of guy. For example, I was in the 82nd when it was still known as the Jumpin' Junkies. The zero drug tolerance in the military is a wonderful thing in my mind. Same thing with DUIs. If you're stupid enough to drink and drive with all the public trans there is in and around a military base, I don't want you on my Team.

But those two examples are proven to hurt people.

I am not a child's rights advocate either. They need to shutup and do what they're told. But to say, as I assume they are doing, that a Marine T Shirt with an M16 on it is advocating Colombine behavior is ridiculous. I would say it advocates the opposite.

Know what's interesting to me? I have yet to hear of anyone in the education field accept any responsibility at all for school shootings. Maybe I've missed it, but I've heard the blame placed on guns, tv, video games, witchcraft, and society, a little on parents. Nothing by the educators saying "We've been in charge of this ssystem for the last 30 years and we're also to blame."

And frankly, since a child spends about 7 hours a day, five days a week in the system (minimum) I don't see how they don't share in the blame.

The Reaper
03-02-2004, 14:25
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

Know what's interesting to me? I have yet to hear of anyone in the education field accept any responsibility at all for school shootings. Maybe I've missed it, but I've heard the blame placed on guns, tv, video games, witchcraft, and society, a little on parents. Nothing by the educators saying "We've been in charge of this ssystem for the last 30 years and we're also to blame."

And frankly, since a child spends about 7 hours a day, five days a week in the system (minimum) I don't see how they don't share in the blame.

Maybe you should write a letter to Michael Moore and Sarah Brady.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
03-02-2004, 14:27
I'd rather bang my finger with a hammer repeatedly.

The Reaper
03-02-2004, 14:43
The horror!!

HAMMER CONTROL!!

Ban assault hammers! Ban automatic nailers! Sue Estwing and Home Depot! Free Hammer Locks! Start a Hammer buy back program! Limit hammer sales to one per month! Limit nail strips to 10 nails in length! Register all hammers. Ban straw hammer sales! Close the Tool Show loophole! Register owners and place a limit on the number of hammers or nails you can posess without a special license. No underage hammer users! No child hammer safety programs! Deny the right to carry hammers concealed and high speed tool belts! Ban private hammer sales! Anyone carrying a hammer is up to no good! Stigamitize hammer owners! March on Washington, after all , it is for the children.

The instrument is at fault, not the user!

Can we make a movie about this, or at least put it on the news nightly till some new laws are passed?

TR
President, Ban All Hammers, Hammers Users are Murderers, Break Up Guns first
(BAH HUMBUG 1)

NousDefionsDoc
03-02-2004, 14:46
Apparently the vote on the ban extention is under way.

DunbarFC
03-02-2004, 15:00
You can have my hammer when you pry it from my cold dead fingers


My cousin decided that her son would have no guns, GI joes or war toys of any kind. She felt that if she kept it away from him that he wouldn't be interested

So what does he do uncoached on day ? Raise his thumb and extend his index finger and yell "BANG Mummy I got you ! "

I think Forest Gump said it best when I read of over reactions like this " Stupid is as stupid does "

CRad
03-03-2004, 12:51
Speaking of guns and schools - the 7 year old here told me he is allowed to take a toy to the afterschool program he's enrolled in but it can't be a gun even if it's only a toy gun because "they aren't allowed on school property." then with a look of total disgust he said "Can you believe that?!" He can wear his junior BDUs to school though.

myclearcreek
03-04-2004, 15:20
Our local ISD also has the zero tolerance policy and would not allow t-shirts with weapons pictured on them, for any reason.

Even though he taught in public school, Dad always believed uniforms were the way to go and said so whenever student or teacher clothing was the topic.

Our homeschool Enrichment Classes dress code includes no tank tops, no short dresses/skirts/shorts (4 inches above the knee or longer). Shorts were not allowed at all until the exercise classes were complaining about not having enough time to change clothes. Weightlifting participants had to wear pants (athletic clothing) below the knee, but now can wear shorts. NRA t-shirts are okay, though. :D

Side note:
Shooting sports is one of the most success programs we have. One of "ours" competes in NRA and has been Junior Olympic champion.

Airbornelawyer
03-05-2004, 22:23
Originally posted by CRad
Speaking of guns and schools...
Maybe we should follow the example of Estonia:

Airbornelawyer
03-05-2004, 22:24
I wonder if she'd get suspended:

NousDefionsDoc
03-05-2004, 22:27
You're just trying to get the Why I support Israel thread going. Ain't going to happen counselor. I 'm wise to you and your subliminal kung fu is no good here.

Airbornelawyer
03-05-2004, 22:33
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You're just trying to get the Why I support Israel thread going. Ain't going to happen counselor. I 'm wise to you and your subliminal kung fu is no good here.

When I was in High School, the "USAF Rock Band" came to show us how cool military life was. We didn't have anything like that above. That has to be almost as far from "Zero-Tolerance" as you can get. These are courtesy of the Estonian Defense Forces, BTW: http://www.mil.ee/~fotek/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album62&page=3

Solid
03-06-2004, 06:10
WTF? All I got as a kid were G.I Joes... Rocket Launchers are SO much more fun!

Those pictures are somewhat unnerving, maybe it's my liberal blood boiling...

Solid

Airbornelawyer
03-06-2004, 20:49
What I find ironic, to say the least, is that the US is supposed to be the violent warmonger cowboy culture, but I don't recall any Army units bringing machine guns and ATGMs to my high school, and we suspend kids for wearing T-Shirts with rifles on them. Meanwhile, in those Scandinavian paradises of the liberal imagination, they constantly run kids through mini-boot camps and have these show-and-tell days. This photo essay on the Estonian Defense Forces website is just one example; similar articles and photo-essays may be seen on the Swedish, Finnish, Latvian and Danish armed forces websites. And the Germans have a website, Treffpunkt Bundeswehr für Jugendliche (http://treff.bundeswehr.de/), which is basically the "Armed Forces for Kids".

NousDefionsDoc
03-06-2004, 21:51
And the Germans have a website, Treffpunkt Bundeswehr für Jugendliche, which is basically the "Armed Forces for Kids".

Schroeder Youth?

LOL. I do crack myself up.