View Full Version : How quick can you STOP shooting?
G'day folks
Just read an article (link below) that I think would be really interesting to all who carry in the LE & civilian world, and to instructors.
http://www.forcesciencenews.com/visuals/newdev.pdf
Enjoy
G
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 07:53
The article is interesting on a theoretical level.
Practically, I will shoot till the threat is no longer a threat. Since he initiated the action by presenting a situation requiring lethal force, unless I am hit and put down, I will determine when he is no longer a threat.
If I were on a jury in a shooting case, I would be pretty lenient in my interpretation of how long the officer applied deadly force, as long as he was justified in initiating it.
Essentially, if you give me a reason to kill you, why would it matter if I shot you twice or five times (as long as I was hitting the threat)?
One other thing that I did not see in the study is the inclination for people to start shooting when their fellow soldiers or officers do, and continue till everyone else stops.
TR
The article is interesting on a theoretical level.
Practically, I will shoot till the threat is no longer a threat. Since he initiated the action by presenting a situation requiring lethal force, unless I am hit and put down, I will determine when he is no longer a threat.
TR
I agree completely with you. We had a expression "to kill 'em dead". A dieing man is just as deadly and maybe more so.
I think this is part of the paradox of training. The best training is by doing the actual event. Obviously a live fire were trainees shoot at each other with real life repercussions would not be acceptable. Simulations at best are simulations. 1st century historian Josephus stated that effectiveness of the Roman Army was because, "The Roman Army practices were bloodless battles, and Battles were bloody practices." (quote may be off a little)
We (bush Marines) felt that in one day in the bush, we learned more about combat than all we learned state side. The behavior in combat of BNG's (Brand New Guys) and 2nd tour Marines demonstated that actual combat made a more prepared and effective combat Marine. IMHO the best training to survive combat is surviving combat itself. The problem is how to actually train people for this environment in a Peace Time setting.
Unfortunately most juries, media, and LE/military critics in the USA are generally ignorant of the problems facing a LEO and Soldier.
I personally believe that every time you get the opportunity to train you should approach it from the mentality that it is the real deal. A life or death situation.
In the end it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six...
Apart from LEO, we've had a few cases here where someone inside their home confronts an intruder (armed) and ends up wounding them with a firearm. Several times in NC the intruder has sued the homeowner and WON, citing that "robbing is how I make a living and I can no longer do that because I've lost the use of my leg".
That happened to a lady near Gastonia who was decimated by the lawsuit and lost everything. Just because someone broke into HER house and she shot him.
The old LRRP guy that taught our CCW class says that it's better to go to court against a puddle on the floor rather than a living martyr. It's a shame that the criminals seem to have more rights than the victims, but if I ever have to shoot an intruder, he's not getting up.
Scotty
(edited: "citing" is spelled with a C and not an S, and because I can't seem to get my shit together this morning. I blame lack of coffee!!)
Spartan359
08-15-2005, 10:12
It's a shame that the victims seem to have more rights than the criminals, but if I ever have to shoot an intruder, he's not getting up.
You sure you got that right? But to answer the question.....if it twitches it needs another bullet.
You sure you got that right? But to answer the question.....if it twitches it needs another bullet.
LOL, thanks for the catch. No java.
Scotty
This issue is more relevant to the LEO / CCW community than it is to military personnel - point being that if you shoot a person who is no longer threatening you, you may face the full force of the law. Either way, I'm keeping the article on record for "just-in-case"!
G
Team Sergeant
08-16-2005, 08:01
This issue is more relevant to the LEO / CCW community than it is to military personnel - point being that if you shoot a person who is no longer threatening you, you may face the full force of the law.
G
I could not agree more. I don't think I've ever had any "Stop Shooting" drills in the military.... :rolleyes:
In the last several years there has been a shift in the HQC in my PD. Drills now include a couple of double tap from a covering suspect position and assess engagements. Another drill is the "Shoot three standing drop to knee and assess" engagement. My favorite, and what I feel is the most useful in LE is the weapon retention engagement(double tap from the hip kissing the target and reholster). When I broke in the HQC was more like target practice. Interesting reading material, but it sounds like there will be new "expert" witnesses in future deadly force trials of Police Officers.
I hope I'm not intruding here but-
In military situations, aren't the 'stop shooting' and 'accurate shooting' and 'force to meet threat level' also very important?
It seems to me that they would be unimportant (unless you are conserving ammo) when fighting conventionally- you kill the guy in the badman uniform and that's fine. If you spray and hit some other guys in the same uniform, that's also fine.
However, in the engagements the US and her allies are facing on a regular basis, it seems that the rules have changed somewhat. If you apply the above to an engagement with irregular forces in an urban environment (lets say Bakara market or something similar), every time you miss your mark and drop a civilian, you can make an enemy out of his family/clan/tribe/sect. Of course, the most important thing are the lives of our soldiers, but in an unconventional war, the hearts and minds are a significant objective too, right?
I'd really appreciate hearing people's views on this as it pertains to my senior thesis.
Also, I want to repeat that our soldiers lives will ALWAYS come above the lives of others.
Thank you very much,
Solid
Team Sergeant
08-16-2005, 08:50
Solid,
It would seem you have a penchant for stating the obvious and answering your own question.
You do need a little help understanding the difference between the ROE of a police officer and the ROE of a soldier.
“Also, I want to repeat that our soldier’s lives will ALWAYS come above the lives of others.”
If this was true we would not fight wars. Pull your head out of your butt!
Team Sergeant
TS,
I understand (at least in general) the difference between the ROE of a cop and a soldier- in that sense, my question was on a tangent to the thread. I apologise.
I am now withdrawing from the AO to get shampoo to clean off my head. Man, is it bright out here.
Thank you,
Solid
I think that comparing the ROE's of a cop and a soldier is like trying to compare apples to oranges. Cops and soldiers don't have the same basic missions so their ROE's aren't really even in the same ball park.
My mission as a USMC rifleman was to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and movement and to repel the enemy's assault through fire and close combat. The mission of a police officer is to serve and protect the public trust and interest.
Hence, totally separte ROE's.
Smokin Joe
08-16-2005, 23:38
Bendo,
You are correct the Force Science Institute is doing really good things for the LEO community and helping juries to understand deadly force encounters and issues.
They explain on a scientfic level all the unexplainable stuff that people say they see in deadly force encounters.
Check them out here at (add www.) forcescience.org
I believe one should shoot the threat until the threat is no longer a threat. Stop shooting when the threat is no longer a threat. The only time I would deviate from this is if there where multiple attackers.
Just my .02 cents.
I think that comparing the ROE's of a cop and a soldier is like trying to compare apples to oranges. Cops and soldiers don't have the same basic missions so their ROE's aren't really even in the same ball park.
My mission as a USMC rifleman was to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and movement and to repel the enemy's assault through fire and close combat. The mission of a police officer is to serve and protect the public trust and interest.
Hence, totally separte ROE's.
Tubbs, Completely agree. There have been numerous articles on this topic. One of the major problems for C and C, is the transition from Combat operations to policing operations.
But isn't the line between combat and policing increasingly blurred?
I suppose my real question in my prior post was:
Do U.S. combat forces need to be retrained or have different training and rules to govern combat operations which more frequently occur within the context of a civilian-rich environment?
Thank you,
Solid