View Full Version : 1911 and Ammo
Hey guys, long time no see.
I recently bought a new toy and am having the same issues as I've had with my Kimbers, Colts, and Thompson 1911s.
After about 200 rds or so, the weapon starts gumming up and jamming. I've been shooting the Winchester battle packs. I might bump up to to a 240 grain round, I think Winchester's best in the the battle packs are 230.
What do you guys shoot for target/what do you do to the weapon to keep it from gumming badly?
BTW, here's my new toy. Custom built Strayer-Voigt frame, Caspian slide. Completely built from the ground up by master gunsmith Tommy Abernathy.
Scotty
...am having the same issues as I've had with my Kimbers, Colts, and Thompson 1911s.
...After about 200 rds or so, the weapon starts gumming up and jamming.
Based on these two comments I'd recommend telling folks here what your using as lubricant/other products used to care for the weapons.
The Reaper
08-09-2005, 11:20
Hey guys, long time no see.
I recently bought a new toy and am having the same issues as I've had with my Kimbers, Colts, and Thompson 1911s.
After about 200 rds or so, the weapon starts gumming up and jamming. I've been shooting the Winchester battle packs. I might bump up to to a 240 grain round, I think Winchester's best in the the battle packs are 230.
What do you guys shoot for target/what do you do to the weapon to keep it from gumming badly?
BTW, here's my new toy. Custom built Strayer-Voigt frame, Caspian slide. Completely built from the ground up by master gunsmith Tommy Abernathy.
Scotty
Scottay!
There are no commercial 240 gr. .45 ACP loads. I have never even seen a .45 bullet available in 240 gr.
I use CLP, any gun oil, Rigg's grease, or Mobil Synthetic, and have no problems with lube.
That is the ammo your gun was designed to run with. If you are starting with a clean, well-lubed, broken-in gun, and are getting stoppages after 200 rounds, you need to send it back to the master gunsmith who built it and tell him that it is not running.
Nice looking piece.
TR
Scottay!
That is the ammo your gun was designed to run with. If you are starting with a clean, well-lubed, broken-in gun, and are getting stoppages after 200 rounds, you need to send it back to the master gunsmith who built it and tell him that it is not running.
Nice looking piece.
TR
Several of the people I shoot with run SV pistols of some sort, and they all recommend shooting AT LEAST 1000 rounds to break the pistol in, often more.
YMMV
Blake
Scottay!
There are no commercial 240 gr. .45 ACP loads. I have never even seen a .45 bullet available in 240 gr.
I use CLP, any gun oil, Rigg's grease, or Mobil Synthetic, and have no problems with lube.
That is the ammo your gun was designed to run with. If you are starting with a clean, well-lubed, broken-in gun, and are getting stoppages after 200 rounds, you need to send it back to the master gunsmith who built it and tell him that it is not running.
Nice looking piece.
TR
The weapon isn't quite broken in and is tight. I'm using Kleen Bore TW25B lube on her. I was reluctant to go with the grease and had always used clear oil, but it was recommended by several folks. It works great on the Grock 19 and I've never had a problem with that.
I haven't started using reloads in the SV yet, mostly because I haven't ordered the springs I'd need for my loads (and no, I've stopped making ++++++Ps, LOL), but I guess after a few hundred more rounds I'll see how she shoots and then take it back to Tommy. It's not cast so he might be able to widen the slide a few microns and get it moving better.
As it is, the thing puts a round anywhere you want it to. I've never shot a weapon more accurate. And I love the hi-cap ability without a long mag sticking out the bottom, and way the grip feels. It also came with the high beavertail grip safety that seats it just so.
Scotty
The Reaper
08-09-2005, 12:15
Then get a couple of cases of ammo, your cleaning kit, a cooler of cold drinks, some hotties, and resolve yourself to going to the range and banging rounds till it stops, taking a break, cleaning it, and repeating as necessary.
I would not take it back to the smith for the problems you have cited till I had at least 500 rounds through it, preferably 1000.
As long as it is oily and wet, I would not worry about the brand of lube you are using.
TR
Team Sergeant
08-09-2005, 13:11
Hey guys, long time no see.
I recently bought a new toy and am having the same issues as I've had with my Kimbers, Colts, and Thompson 1911s.
After about 200 rds or so, the weapon starts gumming up and jamming. I've been shooting the Winchester battle packs. I might bump up to to a 240 grain round, I think Winchester's best in the the battle packs are 230.
What do you guys shoot for target/what do you do to the weapon to keep it from gumming badly?
BTW, here's my new toy. Custom built Strayer-Voigt frame, Caspian slide. Completely built from the ground up by master gunsmith Tommy Abernathy.
Scotty
Say it isn't so, a 1911 jamming????? :boohoo
Who would have thunk it could happen!!! :rolleyes:
With a little therapy you too can overcome your 1911 addiction.
(There are weapons currently on the market that do not jam like the 1911, really. ;))
My .02 and worth every penny.
TS
Sacamuelas
08-09-2005, 13:17
HaHa
I knew that was coming...
I have searched for this, and haven't found it mentioned.
Many of the cons of the 1911s have been discussed, especially in comparison with the USP. What are the pros, now that it's such a wide spread weapon? Availability and adaptability?
Martin - admittedly lacking knowledge and experience on the subject
Team Sergeant
08-09-2005, 13:30
HaHa
I knew that was coming...
I cannot save everyone, but I feel its my duty to at least "get the word out".
I feel its also a double edged sword, it is not my desire to put 10,000 US gunsmiths out of work either. :D
I have searched for this, and haven't found it mentioned.
Many of the cons of the 1911s have been discussed, especially in comparison with the USP. What are the pros, now that it's such a wide spread weapon? Availability and adaptability?
Martin - admittedly lacking knowledge and experience on the subject
I have the ten foot pole in hand and I'm reluctant to post any pro 1911 comments with TS on the look-out. :D
I've got a few 1911's and like them. But I prefer the unconditional reliability and function of the HK's.
Pro's, I posted a few in an earlier thread: Personalization, parts availability, and knowledgability on the platform.
TS had made the good point of needing additional funds to go towards gunsmithing that you won't need with the USP, it's good to go out of the box.
The above stated thread: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6596
Are we Really doing this Again?
By all means, discuss what you choose, but please consider doing so AFTER using the Search function.
Team Sergeant
08-09-2005, 13:55
I have the ten foot pole in hand and I'm reluctant to post any pro 1911 comments with TS on the look-out. :D
I've got a few 1911's and like them. But I prefer the unconditional reliability and function of the HK's.
Pro's, I posted a few in an earlier thread: Personalization, parts availability, and knowledgability on the platform.
TS had made the good point of needing additional funds to go towards gunsmithing that you won't need with the USP, it's good to go out of the box.
The above stated thread: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6596
I'm not going to tear off anyones head over their personal weapons choice. If one chooses to select and utilize a weapon thats design is almost 100 years old, who am I to stand in their way? :D
I have a 1911 and I used to "drive" it all the time. Now it sits in a "special" place, out of harms way so it can enjoy it's remaining days out to pasture. :cool:
Please, continue your discussion while I dream about a world without stove pipe jams. :D
I crack myself up.
TS
Are we Really doing this Again?
By all means, discuss what you choose, but please consider doing so AFTER using the Search function.
I have read through most of the posts that a search for 1911 turns up, 76 total. This specific aspect has not been answered other than jbour13's post in the Glock thread, as far as I can tell. I am not interested in starting a bashing contest.
With that said, I don't intend to be demanding and will not repeat the question.
Thanks, jbour13.
I'm not going to tear off anyones head over their personal weapons choice. If one chooses to select and utilize a weapon thats design is almost 100 years old, who am I to stand in their way? :D
I have a 1911 and I used to "drive" it all the time. Now it sits in a "special" place, out of harms way so it can enjoy it's remaining days out to pasture. :cool:
Please, continue your discussion while I dream about a world without stove pipe jams. :D
I crack myself up.
TS
Well, my main plinker is the Glock until I can find a good deal on a decent USP Compact .45! I sold my last one (I know, I know, I've missed it every day) and I'm getting another in the next week or two.
I only use my SV for IDPA CDP competition. Glock for GSSF comp. And the USP-C will be my carry gun. I was shooting very nice groups at 25yds with that.
BTW, anyone know where I can find a decent USP .45C? :)
Scotty
I own both a USP and a 1911 and I believe a pistol is just a means to fight your way to a bigger gun.
just my .02
Peregrino
08-09-2005, 14:31
I have read through most of the posts that a search for 1911 turns up, 76 total. This specific aspect has not been answered other than jbour13's post in the Glock thread, as far as I can tell. I am not interested in starting a bashing contest.
With that said, I don't intend to be demanding and will not repeat the question.
Thanks, jbour13.
Martin - It's a fair question and worth an answer. I like the .45 because I've been using one for the last 30+ years. I carried my personal .45 through two tours in El Sal and I've fired untold thousands (God alone knows) of rounds through it. Yes, I need to send it for a tune-up, but it still functions just fine. As a "lefty" I appreciate the 10,000 gunsmiths eager to customize my pistol "for a reasonable price." I also like the wide variety of accessories - especially left-handed holsters (not always readily available for less "venerable" handguns). I've also found that most modern pistols have controls (safety, decocker, mag release, etc.) optimized for right handed users. IIRC the TS's favorite HK is one of them. Sigs are another. Those same 10,000 gunsmiths and 100 years of product development address the lefty issue to my personal satisfaction. Depending on carry options this may or may not be an issue for you. The true "ambidextrous" pistols, e.g. the Glock, just don't meet my idea of esthetics/ergonomics. It comes down to personal preferences. Bottom line - as long as it launches manly bullets reliably, who cares? Pistols are only good for shooting your way to a real gun anyway (or those social occasions when a real gun isn't an option). My .02 - Peregrino
Thank you, that answered my question perfectly.
If someone more adds their opinion, thanks goes out in advance.
Martin
BTW, anyone know where I can find a decent USP .45C? :)
Scotty
Scotty, have you looked on Gunbroker and Gunsamerica? You should be able to find that which you seek for about $650. ;)
BTW, Team Sergeant, having lost my favorite 1911 in my divorce (yeah, yeah, I know) I find myself needing another handgun. I'd like to give the USP-C .45 another chance, but wonder if there's anything that can be done to give it more of the trigger pull I'm used to (4 lbs. crisp break). Is that something that can be solved with a new Wolff hammer spring, or would it require a smith? The trigger was the main thing I didn't love about the weapon previously.
Scotty, have you looked on Gunbroker and Gunsamerica? You should be able to find that which you seek for about $650. ;)
BTW, Team Sergeant, having lost my favorite 1911 in my divorce (yeah, yeah, I know) I find myself needing another handgun. I'd like to give the USP-C .45 another chance, but wonder if there's anything that can be done to give it more of the trigger pull I'm used to (4 lbs. crisp break). Is that something that can be solved with a new Wolff hammer spring, or would it require a smith? The trigger was the main thing I didn't love about the weapon previously.
HK offers Match trigger Packs, but Finding one, Paying for one, and Finding an HK armorer to install it can be a pain in the ass. Also, I am not sure if they work in the compact guns. Worth looking into I suppose, if that's what you are interested in.
HK offers Match trigger Packs, but Finding one, Paying for one, and Finding an HK armorer to install it can be a pain in the ass. Also, I am not sure if they work in the compact guns. Worth looking into I suppose, if that's what you are interested in.
I saw those on the HK site, but it looks like they are only available for the full-size models.
Team Sergeant
08-09-2005, 16:19
HK offers Match trigger Packs, but Finding one, Paying for one, and Finding an HK armorer to install it can be a pain in the ass. Also, I am not sure if they work in the compact guns. Worth looking into I suppose, if that's what you are interested in.
So tell me young man how many rounds you have through an HK?
Or a 1911?
Team Sergeant
So tell me young man how many rounds you have through an HK?
Or a 1911?
Team Sergeant
HK - Enough to know that the weapon does not fit me very well.
1911 - several thousand
I'm just trying to let Jatx know what I have seen, nothing more.
Roguish Lawyer
08-09-2005, 17:14
So tell me young man how many rounds you have through an HK?
Or a 1911?
Team Sergeant
Undoubtedly far fewer than you, but that's not sufficient reason to reject his opinion. (In my lingo, it goes to weight, not admissibility.) :)
Team Sergeant
08-09-2005, 17:58
HK - Enough to know that the weapon does not fit me very well.
1911 - several thousand
I'm just trying to let Jatx know what I have seen, nothing more.
I take it you've Looked for an HK trigger pack, had a hard time Finding an armorer to place it in the weapon, and had a tough time of Paying for this service also?
You've "seen" this or experienced it yourself?
Please enlighten me.
I don't normally put down weapons or weapon systems until I've actually experienced a problem myself.
Prester John
08-09-2005, 18:40
I don't normally put down weapons or weapon systems until I've actually experienced a problem myself.
FWIW. I have several HK USP pistols. I have been trying to find a dealer for HK products to order a match trigger pack for my USP .45. I have had the trigger on order at two different gun stores for over 2 months. I have also had ZERO luck contacting HK to order one directly. Poor phone service the three times I have called.
I am not dying for it, as I have been shooting USP stock triggers long enough to be acquainted with it and not find it that unpleasent.
My only complaint with the pistol is I have a short thumb and find myself repositioning my hand to release the slide. It's a personal problem.
TS, any suggestions on a place to obtain this trigger?
Gene Econ
08-10-2005, 07:54
[QUOTE=Scotty]After about 200 rds or so, the weapon starts gumming up and jamming. I've been shooting the Winchester battle packs.....What do you guys shoot for target/what do you do to the weapon to keep it from gumming badly?
.....Custom built Strayer-Voigt frame, Caspian slide. Completely built from the ground up by master gunsmith Tommy Abernathy.
Scotty:
The guys have some excellent advice and I will comment on your questions FWIW.
One of the guys said to keep it lubed and it really didn't matter what you use for lube. I agree totally but will add this for you. Don't mix the types of lube you are using. I have been using LSA-T on my .45 and it works quite well. This last week I decided to lube with LSA-T on some of the parts and good old CLP on others. It was hot out and I shot a-lot that day. The LSA-T tried to mix with the CLP and it resulted in a gummy substance that also got mixed with carbon. The .45 got sluggish but continued to function. A quick wipe down of the barrel and slide followed by straight CLP did the trick.
I think that the Winchester cheapo ammo that you are using isn't as hot as it should be. Liability issues are at play with commercially purchased ammo and the companies will always use the low end of loads to avoid law suits. The loads are perfectly safe of course but are one size fits all and I have found the Winchester 230 grain loads to be very mild although they function every .45 I have seen them fired through. Could be that these loads are a bit light for your custom pistol and once you get some carbon mixed with the lube -- that is enough to make it sluggish.
I think some of the fellows remember the final days of the issued .45 ACP -- early 1990s. IMI .45 ball. 230 grain round nose. Very hot loads. Much more felt recoil than the issued WCC .45 ACP we used to get. So hot in fact that I stopped shooting them.
You may want to ask this gunsmith what loads should be shot from this particular pistol before hand loading for it. He would probably know what is best and I would go with his advice before screwing around with something else.
'Target' loads is kind of a generic term. Real 'Target' loads normally use a 185 grain bullet and very light loads of powder -- requiring a much lighter recoil spring than what you probably have. I don't think you really want to deal with true 'target' loads as 185 grain .45 bullets can be very picky about the feed ramp.
Instead, let me advise you to hand load with some 200 grain truncated cone or cast bullets to moderate loads. I feed my .45 a constant diet of 200 grain bullets. My loads are a bit hotter than what bullseye guys will use but that ensures function. I have found the 200 grain bullets to be superior in accuracy than the 230 round nose anyway and if you are worried about 'knock down' power -- I wouldn't due to bullet design and the increased speed you get with the 200 grain bullets.
Guys generally use five grains of Tite Group or WW 231 with a 200 grain bullet to good effect. There are other powders -- Bullseye, AA-5, AA-7, Unique, and some shotgun powders but I think that most guys tend to stick with Tite Group and WW 231. Plus or minus a few tenths of a grain to suit their own tastes but that is the general load for this bullet weight. Works with standard recoil springs and the accuracy is superior to a 230.
One final comment -- there is no excuse for any firearm not to function with the ammo that the manufacturer claims should be used. I have very strong views about firearms that someone says needs to be 'broken in' by firing ammo before it will function consistently and perfectly. To me, there is no excuse for a firearm made by a custom guy or even out of the box to fail to function flawlessly for the full amount of ammo expected to be shot in any shooting session. 200 rounds in a session for a pistol without wiping it down or adding lube is pushing it in my view so keep that in mind as you go down your path.
Gene
Team Sergeant
08-10-2005, 08:55
[QUOTE=Scotty]
One final comment -- there is no excuse for any firearm not to function with the ammo that the manufacturer claims should be used. I have very strong views about firearms that someone says needs to be 'broken in' by firing ammo before it will function consistently and perfectly. To me, there is no excuse for a firearm made by a custom guy or even out of the box to fail to function flawlessly for the full amount of ammo expected to be shot in any shooting session. 200 rounds in a session for a pistol without wiping it down or adding lube is pushing it in my view so keep that in mind as you go down your path.
Gene
I could not agree with this statement more.....
I have (in the days of old, before I kicked my 1911 addiction) taken a 1911 to a Master Smith only to have it stop working 500 rounds later. After a few thousand dollars in "custom" work, and purchasing more 1911's, I came to the conclusion the 1911 will always require "work" and re-work.
There are too many great "out of the box" weapons on todays market that can shoot as accurately as any 1911, function much more reliably than a 1911, have a mulitude of options and cost a tenth of what a custom 1911 costs. (I will not discuss the training involved to employ a 1911 with confidence and competence!)
Now if we could just get some of those gun makers to make different size frames in th same models.....
Team Sergeant
08-10-2005, 09:06
FWIW. I have several HK USP pistols. I have been trying to find a dealer for HK products to order a match trigger pack for my USP .45. I have had the trigger on order at two different gun stores for over 2 months. I have also had ZERO luck contacting HK to order one directly. Poor phone service the three times I have called.
I am not dying for it, as I have been shooting USP stock triggers long enough to be acquainted with it and not find it that unpleasent.
My only complaint with the pistol is I have a short thumb and find myself repositioning my hand to release the slide. It's a personal problem.
TS, any suggestions on a place to obtain this trigger?
Sorry Prester John, I own a half dozen HK's, I've never taken one to the smith, I've never replaced a part on any of them, I continue to shoot bullet holes through bullet holes with the same stock triggers and barrels with each and everyone of them.
(I also do NOT work for or consult for HK :D )
My point, they work just fine, out of the box.
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 09:16
I don't think anyone is badmouthing the H&K as a handgun, I think the real complaints are with the U.S. arm of the company itself and its business practices.
Some like the SIG, some the H&K, some the Glock, some 1911s.
If it works for you and does what you need it to, use it and be happy.
I personally think that if Scotty's pistol is doing what he says, it needs to be returned to the smith and let him sort it out with his ammo.
TR
Team Sergeant
08-10-2005, 10:45
I don't think anyone is badmouthing the H&K as a handgun, I think the real complaints are with the U.S. arm of the company itself and its business practices.
TR
Sir,
I really do not care if someone with "genuine" personal experience had problems with a weapons system or company and posts a complaint.
What I have a problem with is people running their mouth that have 2nd-3rd hand knowledge of a certain weapon system or companies and posts a complaint based only on rumor and not 1st hand experience.
There are a considerable number of weapon related internet forums where the weapon novices can post their opinions no matter how inexperienced or creditable they may be. They are third rate as to their creditability, content and members. I do not think this is the type of weapons forum we want on ProfesionalSoldiers.com.
TS
Thanks for the responses, guys. I agree with most of the comments, especially considering that the weapon is about a $3K hunk of gun. Col, when you say you use Mobil synthetic I ASSume you're talking the motor oil? I use it in all my vehicles and if you are having luck on your weapon I may give it a shot.
The gunsmith that I bought it from is very accessible and I will take it to him for his input. Could be that the spring in it is weak, etc, as the slide isn't coming to full closure on some of the rounds after constant fire. Partial gumming/bad spring combo?
Gene, thanks for the loading tip. I'm still a relatively new loader and use the 231 powder exclusively. I use cast semi-wadcutter rounds from a company called Beanies, mostly because after thousands of loads, I've not come across one defect in his bullets. In my competition Kimber, I lightened the springs and the loads to keep the weapon more controlable. I'll play with your suggested load and see what happens!
I love my Glock, it's never failed me. I miss my USP-C like I miss my kinky college girlfriend. Will replace it within the month. Possibly the girlfriend too. :) I never minded the trigger on it at all and was constantly shooting 3-4" groups at 25yds with it. Right out of the box.
I like the 1911 for IDPA mostly because I'm keeping up with the Jones'. Both the guys I shoot with got into the CDP class, and I love the competition.
I guess it's "for every tool a function".
Scotty
PS - TS, Guy says that you need to have (EDIT - BY "have" I mean TEACH!) a class on proper firearm usage. He can't stop talking about the day you guys shot together! :D
Bravo1-3
08-10-2005, 12:28
Hi, my name is Jason, and I was a 1911 addict... :D
My personal preference now is the CZ-97. The first round double-action trigger stinks, but other than that I have no complaints. I have had one issue with the gun so far; I managed to chip the end off of the ejector. I sent it back to CZ and had the gun back within 2 weeks (along with a new magazine compliments of CZ for my trouble). I've fired in the neighborhood of 10,000 rounds through it and it's as tight as the day I got it.
That said, I'm going to agree with Pattaya's statement about a pistol being a means to fight your way to a bigger gun.
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 12:30
Thanks for the responses, guys. I agree with most of the comments, especially considering that the weapon is about a $3K hunk of gun. Col, when you say you use Mobil synthetic I ASSume you're talking the motor oil? I use it in all my vehicles and if you are having luck on your weapon I may give it a shot.
I have used a bunch of different lubes, including the Mobil right off the dipstick when I left my oil at home one day. IIRC, the AMU uses it as well.
The gunsmith that I bought it from is very accessible and I will take it to him for his input. Could be that the spring in it is weak, etc, as the slide isn't coming to full closure on some of the rounds after constant fire. Partial gumming/bad spring combo?
More likely weak rounds, crud, and tight tolerances. The gun should have been set up for the ammo you are going to be shooting.
I love my Glock, it's never failed me. I miss my USP-C like I miss my kinky college girlfriend. Will replace it within the month. Possibly the girlfriend too. :) I never minded the trigger on it at all and was constantly shooting 3-4" groups at 25yds with it. Right out of the box.
Need more details about the kinky GF. By PM of course.
PS - TS, Guy says that you need to have a class on proper firearm usage. He can't stop talking about the day you guys shot together! :D
Oh shit, now you went and did it! Telling the TS that he needs more firearms training is definitely bold.
TR
Oh shit, now you went and did it! Telling the TS that he needs more firearms training is definitely bold. TR
Damn TR! Trying to get me into trouble?! :D I edited it.
As for the kinky gf, it's a subject best discussed over Beam shots at the GB club or a Hooters... I'll see if I can't dig up a picture. She was a heart-stopper.
I've got some Castrol Syntec sitting around the house somewhere, might give a drop or two to the machinery and see what happens...
Scotty
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 12:51
I've got some Castrol Syntec sitting around the house somewhere, might give a drop or two to the machinery and see what happens...
Scotty
Note that you can't edit my quote. :D
Make sure that the slide rails, the locking lug recesses, the barrel link and the bushing (if you have them) are all clean and lubricated.
TR
Team Sergeant
08-10-2005, 13:21
PS - TS, Guy says that you need to have (EDIT - BY "have" I mean TEACH!) a class on proper firearm usage. He can't stop talking about the day you guys shot together! :D
Guy just has a thing for white guys with well defined fore arms.... ;)
Find me a class room full of LEO's or military and I'll be more than happy to teach!
TS
Regarding custom/race guns, i have a factory STI Edge in .40 S&W bought last Autumn, with which i have now put about 2.5K rounds through.
On past experiences with the this companys products, i have not regretted my decision. I have learned that there are some that are a bit more sensitive on the load specifications, my pistol runs equally well on factory ammo (S&B 230gr FMJ) and reloads that are checked with the chamber, after all it is a race gun with tight tolerances.
Some problems that i have seen here with custom, not factory, weapons around here can be traced to the builder.
Of course the Edges and other similar pistols cycle smoother when lubed well.
I do have a quite well worn HK USP that would be the #1 choice to grab...
Good to see you here Scotty !
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 14:19
I do have a quite well worn HK USP that would be the #1 choice to grab...
Tuukka:
Are you sucking up here? :D
TR
Well, i´ve had it for about 7 years. It goes bang every time i pull the trigger and had the features at the time that suited me.
Like i said, if i would have to depend my life on one of the pistols i have, it would be the USP.
Peregrino
08-10-2005, 14:39
Tuukka:
Are you sucking up here? :D
TR
I just want to know when S&B is going to start importing the 230 gr. FMJ .40 S&W ammo here to the States. Not that I would want to shoot any of it mind you. ;) Peregrino
Roguish Lawyer
08-10-2005, 14:45
Tuukka:
Are you sucking up here? :D
TR
Certainly not to you!
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 14:47
Certainly not to you!
Did I imply that?
TR
Peregrino, sharp eye. That would obviously be 180grainers.
But i do shoot the S&B 230gr in my Colt..
Gene Econ
08-10-2005, 21:08
(I will not discuss the training involved to employ a 1911 with confidence and competence!)
TS:
He, he, he. Go right ahead. I am sure our experiences are dramatically similar, particularly with an issued arms room .45 and issued ball.
Oh yes, I have three 1911s and love all of them. I am just happy that I don't have to deal with arms room .45s and limited quantities of issued ball anymore.
Gene
Peregrino, sharp eye. That would obviously be 180grainers.
But i do shoot the S&B 230gr in my Colt..
Hey Tuuk, resend me your information. That package I sent came back undeliverable!
And let me know about the USP! :)
TS, I would love to set something like that up as long as I got to audit the class!
Scotty
The most effective handgun weapon system in the world is the one that hits the non ballistic gelatin threat with the BMT CQB ammunition. The BMT handgun ammunition is an equal oppurtunity employment problem solver except that some specific weapons with less supported barrel chambers require after market barrels before they can step up to the plate.
The Reaper
08-11-2005, 14:30
The most effective handgun weapon system in the world is the one that hits the non ballistic gelatin threat with the BMT CQB ammunition. The BMT handgun ammunition is an equal oppurtunity employment problem solver except that some specific weapons with less supported barrel chambers require after market barrels before they can step up to the plate.
No lie. That stuff will burn through steel, stop in drywall (or tissue), and leave one big, raggedy, smoking hole in the recipient.
TR
Here's a Defense Review article on this ammo. Mean $hit indeed.
Link: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=577
I know it says LEO and Military, but is there any law against a civi "obtaining"/carrying some?
Scotty
The Reaper
08-12-2005, 09:03
I know it says LEO and Military, but is there any law against a civi "obtaining"/carrying some?
Scotty
I do not know of any way for you to "obtain" the LeMas ammo.
TR
Gene Econ
08-12-2005, 09:39
No lie. That stuff will burn through steel, stop in drywall (or tissue), and leave one big, raggedy, smoking hole in the recipient.
How does this bullet function? Makes no sense to me but there is always a chance that someone actually made something that defies common sense.
Gene
I may be jumping on this one a bit late, but Scotty, your new 1911 is a hi-cap.
Is this the first 1911 hi-cap you have ever owned? If so you may have a simple problem. You could just be limp wristing the pistol. We all know that 1911s are prone to jamming when limp wristed and the hi-cap varients are even more afflicted. When you go from shooting a regular to a hi-cap, most people who are frequent 1911 users don't think twice about their grip. It does however effect the pistol possibly leading to limp wristing, leading to the problem you desrcibed.
I had the same exact issue when I bought my first hi-cap 1911 (a Para-Ord TacFour LDA).
Check your grip out and that may solve your problem.
[QUOTE=The Reaper]No lie. That stuff will burn through steel, stop in drywall (or tissue), and leave one big, raggedy, smoking hole in the recipient.
How does this bullet function? Makes no sense to me but there is always a chance that someone actually made something that defies common sense.
Gene
Not my job to know why the rounds do what they do, but it is my job to know and demonstrate the scalable increase in operational capabilities this armor piercing ammunition provides.
Team Sergeant
08-12-2005, 10:24
[QUOTE=Gene Econ]
Not my job to know why the rounds do what they do, but it is my job to know and demonstrate the scalable increase in operational capabilities this armor piercing ammunition provides.
Gene, meet APLP, APLP Gene. :D
Gene,
I met APLP this year at the Shot Show, good man, knows his stuff!
TS
The Reaper
08-12-2005, 10:46
How does this bullet function? Makes no sense to me but there is always a chance that someone actually made something that defies common sense.
Gene
Extreme velocity, very special composition.
I have fired a couple of hundred rounds of the LeMas BMT on targets from steel, to drywall, to raw meat, to live tissue. I have seen several hundred more rounds fired. I can personally state that I have witnessed it to my satisfaction, and it does what they claim it will do. I cannot explain exactly how, but I am merely another knuckle dragging trigger puller, it is not my job to explain it.
I have seen a LeMas .300 Rem Ultra Mag blow a roast into pieces, some flying as far as 50 feet from the point of impact. The same round easily burned through steel armor plate, yet stopped in just a couple of sheets of drywall. I have seen it in live tissue, the bullet penetrates and disintegrates like an explosive went off in the wound. Frag dispersed as far as 20" from the wound channel, bones shattered several inches from the track of the bullet. Our Doc said that all he could do for a hit to an extremity was to amputate at the next higher joint, a body or head shot would be unsurvivable even if you were prepped and on the OR table when hit. I have put a LeMas .45 ACP round through my Para P-12 (with a 3.5" barrel) through 1/4" aluminum armor and 11 gauge stainless steel when a Hydrashok would barely dent it. Do a search on the site here for some more info and pics. Contact APLP for product info.
Check out the following links:
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=361
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=577
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/?s=2005_side1
Frankly, I am at a loss as to why we are not currently using it for at least the SOF troops. There are apparently big players trying to squash it, a disinformation campaign by individuals who should know better, and rumors swirling about like the winds on a match day. Most recent one I heard was that they acknowledged its efficacy, but said that the woulds were "too horrible" for it to be approved for use, despite the fact that it is available in an open tipped match configuration that complies with all Protocols.
HTH, contact me if you want to communicate with someone not affiliated with the company who has seen it work, repeatedly.
TR
mumbleypeg
08-12-2005, 11:57
..."I am merely another knuckle dragging trigger puller, it is not my job to explain it."...
The word for the day is Litotes. :D
I may be jumping on this one a bit late, but Scotty, your new 1911 is a hi-cap.
Is this the first 1911 hi-cap you have ever owned? If so you may have a simple problem. You could just be limp wristing the pistol. We all know that 1911s are prone to jamming when limp wristed and the hi-cap varients are even more afflicted. When you go from shooting a regular to a hi-cap, most people who are frequent 1911 users don't think twice about their grip. It does however effect the pistol possibly leading to limp wristing, leading to the problem you desrcibed.
I had the same exact issue when I bought my first hi-cap 1911 (a Para-Ord TacFour LDA).
Check your grip out and that may solve your problem.
Well, the infinite possibility for "limp wrist" jokes aside, yes, this is the first hi-cap .45 I've ever owned. I've always had a pretty stable shooting platform, though I'm not a beefy guy, I'm pretty strong. I'll explore some of my hand positions this weekend, but I still think the predominant problem is with the cleaning solution or the weapon itself. (I know, right, always the tool not the user).
I'll see what happens. Thanks!
Scotty
Well, the infinite possibility for "limp wrist" jokes aside...
Come on now...we're hardly the type of guys to make juvenile 'limp wrist' jokes.
There's much more comedic potential in glitter. :D
Come on now...we're hardly the type of guys to make juvenile 'limp wrist' jokes.
There's much more comedic potential in glitter. :D
I'm not touching that one. How're you doing, bro? Long time no see.
Scotty
Gene Econ
08-12-2005, 21:16
I cannot explain exactly how, but I am merely another knuckle dragging trigger puller, it is not my job to explain it......Frankly, I am at a loss as to why we are not currently using it for at least the SOF troops. There are apparently big players trying to squash it, a disinformation campaign by individuals who should know better...
TR:
You already started explaining this concept with your comment on velocity. I certainly hope you continue with your theory. So far it makes good sense. I don't want any of the ammo to shoot. You have fired enough for me too. Just want to pick your brain as you apparently have an excellent idea as to how and why this ammunition works as claimed.
I read the articles that have been indicated and they have not provided any information concerning how and why. One of the articles hinted that the ammo was being given to SOF. Wonder what happened.
I wonder about something else concerning this ammunition. You put a steel plate in front of a less dense material and it penetrates the plate but fragments in the less dense material. OK -- how about the other way around? How about three sheets of plywood / sheet rock and then the steel plate? Seems to me it can't work one way and not the other.
Gene
The Reaper
08-12-2005, 22:05
I am probably not qualified to speculate, but I have never seen it hit a "soft" target without deploying. Virtually every live tissue shot I have seen has deployed in the target with no exit wound.
Three sheets of drywall and a steel plate, it will not touch the plate.
Armor plate followed by drywall will be hit by remaining payload or the steel slug knocked out of the plate.
APLP can probably elaborate.
I have not fired the LeMas pistol rounds on live tissue, but I have shot a bunch on other targets and have seen their 90 gr. .45 ACP register 2300 fps plus on my chrony.
I feel that it is only fair to say that there are a lot of people who claim that the rounds are bogus, that they do not perform as advertised, and are merely conventional bullets.
My question for them is always, "How many rounds of LeMas have you fired, and what did you shoot with it?".
TR
I am probably not qualified to speculate, but I have never seen it hit a "soft" target without deploying. Virtually every live tissue shot I have seen has deployed in the target with no exit wound.
Three sheets of drywall and a steel plate, it will not touch the plate.
Armor plate followed by drywall will be hit by remaining payload or the steel slug knocked out of the plate.
APLP can probably elaborate.
I have not fired the LeMas pistol rounds on live tissue, but I have shot a bunch on other targets and have seen their 90 gr. .45 ACP register 2300 fps plus on my chrony.
I feel that it is only fair to say that there are a lot of people who claim that the rounds are bogus, that they do not perform as advertised, and are merely conventional bullets.
My question for them is always, "How many rounds of LeMas have you fired, and what did you shoot with it?".
TR
Hello Gene,
In response to your prior post, and TR's response, folks really do have to fire the rounds for themselves for a whole lot of reasons, some of which might be considered scientific, and for other rationales that you just have to see for yourself with your own trigger finger.
I am on the road and do not have specific data to attach to any post, but if this thread is still alive next week I will to post some pictures that will be of interest. There is a long list of DOD active duty and procurement structure facility personnel who have declined repeated invitation to observe in person at secure facilities the scalable effect that the BMT munitions demonstrate in armor and living tissue.
The 9mm BMT armor piercing CQB bullet has been shown by the esteemed ballistic expert Gary Roberts to penetrate 18 inches of calibrated ballistic gelatin with no fragmentation or expansion, yet the same armor piercing bullet design demonstrates non repairable live tissue destructions without over penetration in both appendage and thoracic cavity impacts. The identical BMT 9mm CQB bullet is capable of penetrating all soft 3a body armors and up to 1/4 inch T-304 stainless steel from a colt 9mm subgun yet the currently procured duty military and law enforcement ammunition products can do absolutely non of the above.
After 5.5 years, and tens of thousands of non R&D Le Mas Ltd. BMT bullet designs carried down range, not one single claim of the bullets not performing as advertised in armor or living tissue have been reported by end users to date.
Edited for worse grammar than usual and breaking the rule to never post after drinking crown on vacation, my apologies.
Spartan359
08-13-2005, 14:23
I do not know of any way for you to "obtain" the LeMas ammo.
TR
Here you fellas go. http://www.rbcd.net/distributors.htm. Good stuff.
The Reaper
08-13-2005, 14:31
Here you fellas go. http://www.rbcd.net/distributors.htm. Good stuff.
Not exactly the same.
TR
Spartan359
08-13-2005, 14:57
Not exactly the same.
TR
I too tried to get LeMas and was stonewalled by the website. Unless of course you "accidently" lose some of your stash TR. :D I'll pay for shipping! What's the difference? I googled around and found nothing about how LeMas works. I guess my Google is weak.
The Reaper
08-13-2005, 15:27
I too tried to get LeMas and was stonewalled by the website. Unless of course you "accidently" lose some of your stash TR. :D I'll pay for shipping! What's the difference? I googled around and found nothing about how LeMas works. I guess my Google is weak.
I don't think you want every Tom, Dick, and Harry running around with the stuff. Why would a non-LEO, former Navy guy need it?
TR
Spartan359
08-13-2005, 15:51
I don't think you want every Tom, Dick, and Harry running around with the stuff. Why would a non-LEO, former Navy guy need it?
TR
You are right. I wouldn't want irresponsible people with that type of round. As for non-LEO I volunteer for the local sheriffs office for the ride along program/I work there. Also for hunting big game. A buddy of mine has a house in Ketchakan so we hunt up there. Not much to hunt in Florida besides giant lizards.
Smokin Joe
08-13-2005, 16:07
You are right. I wouldn't want irresponsible people with that type of round. As for non-LEO I volunteer for the local sheriffs office for the ride along program/I work there. Also for hunting big game. A buddy of mine has a house in Ketchakan so we hunt up there. Not much to hunt in Florida besides giant lizards.
You do not want this stuff to hunt game with.
It does bad things to the inside destroying alot of meat.
Spartan, thank you for volunteering your time; god nows every agency needs there volunteers but being a volunteer and being an LEO is a little different.
Spartan359
08-13-2005, 16:19
You do not want this stuff to hunt game with.
It does bad things to the inside destroying alot of meat.
Roger that.