View Full Version : Ammo Temps / Handloading
Gene Econ
07-31-2005, 21:05
Guys:
Rick has confirmed my 'feeling' about the Chey Tac or what ever it is called. Same with Mr. Reaper. Roger that -- understand the situation completely and enough said.
Rick went over the requirement that motivated the SOTI courses to instruct handloading and one fellow commented on changes in zero due to temperatures of the ammo.
Ammo temp does have an effect but how much? Here is a little test I did with some 3/2 snipers while running some training at Yakima two or three years ago. I did this because the guys were asking.
I bought a little Radio Shack electronic thermometer with a probe and got the temp of some M-118 SB in an ammo can. It was late November at Yakima and the ammo in the ammo can was about 50 degrees F. I took ten rounds of 118 and cooked them with an MRE heater for about ten minutes. They got to about 120 degrees F. Temp difference being about 70 degrees F.
Then I had a guy fire ten shots of each over a chronograph. I figure the MRE heated 118 was hot as he had to very quickly chuck them into the chamber due to how hot they were -- he, he, he. Very little difference in velocities -- 40 - 50 fps. A minute at best. Zero changes? Sure, given a High Master competitive shooter firing a top notch match rifle on a good KD range. Given an average trained sniper firing field fire in a desert in the bright sun and wind -- impossible to determine if there was any change in probability of hit.
I will say that standard deviation was greater with the heated ammo than the cooler ammo.
I believe that the Army uses the ball powder it uses for consistency over a wide temperature range. I have never found a 'practical' difference in terms of zero unless the ammo is real, real cold or real, real hot. Cold or hot enough to require the shooter to handle the ammo with gloves of some sort. However, this was at practical ranges to about 500 and not at 1000 where no doubt it would make a practical difference. I personally think the ball powder doesn't give as much consistency in velocities but I do think it is more consistent over a wide range of temperatures than extruded powders. No, I don't shoot ball powder in competition.
The handloading issue has IMHO never been of any tactical value in a sniper course, even during the Cold War. Rick can tell you that Army Material Command gave the SOTIC permission to hand load but otherwise will not grant this permission to any tactical unit I know of. I liked the handloading POI because it got guys interested in their profession and to me this was a huge benefit of having it as part of any sniper course. Getting guys interested in pursuing their skill is a very good thing indeed and the handloading training got more interested rather than less.
Yes, I have used Soviet bullets and powder pulled from Soviet 7.62 X 54 R to handload NATO 7.62. Both the 150 grain and 180 grain 7.62 X 54 ammo. It is a very tricky situation and I would not advise it unless one understands Soviet production thought and is extremely anal about measuring things, and thinking before he acts. M-118 outshot these 'recovered' handloads.
Gene
longrange1947
07-31-2005, 22:28
Gene kinda goes against some of the observations that I have had. As far as the ball powder, according to LC they used it for the mass production throws to better and more consistant powder throws on the production line.
When they changed the powder in the mid 80s from M118 National Match to M118 Special Ball, they had real problems with consistant throws in powder weight. That first lot went at Mintue of 55 gal drum.
As a side note I think they have given 5th Group a waver on reloads as well. They are playing around with all sorts of screwy shit.
On my bench/long range loads, I individually weigh each charge. Using ball or extruded powder has no advantage on weight consistency because that. Some of the newer powder measure have a trickle feed, (Lyman, RCBS) and dispenses powder based on weight rather than volume.
And Yes, Great discussion. When I benched rest shot, I would also measure case volume, and group cases. Weight Bullets etc..... Now I tend to like shooting buffalo size clangers at 1000 yards with a 45/70 black powder cartridges with open sites. It is more laid back. I think to be a great bench shooter it takes a person with a personality that can endure highly methodical, extremely slow precision tasks.
Gene,
Are you still making your own bullets? If so I'm still waiting for my 1000 rds of .45 :) . Say hey to Dirty Bob for me and tell him to get online.
DDD
longrange1947
08-01-2005, 13:30
Hollis that is true now but back then it was a mass production line that threw charges by mechanics and not trickle.
Gene Econ
08-01-2005, 21:05
Gene,
Are you still making your own bullets? If so I'm still waiting for my 1000 rds of .45 :) . Say hey to Dirty Bob for me and tell him to get online.
DDD
Still make some bullets for the .30 caliber and even compete with them when I shoot the .30 caliber which isn't much these days. The 6mm and 6.5mm are superior in terms of accuracy and exterior ballistics factors.
Have no dies for .45 but am seriously thinking of investing the money to swage my own pistol bullets. Will take more consideration as I can buy a whole bunch of pistol bullets for the thousand or so dollars it would cost for swaging dies for my machine.
Funny you should mention Dirty Bob as we had lunch today. Will have him over this weekend as well. I mentioned PS to him today and he is interested.
Gene :lifter
EchoSixMike
08-01-2005, 21:44
Have you considered casting instead of swaging? It's how I feed my habit for pistol bullets, as well as 45/70. I try to get out twice a week for 300 rds or so, and bullets cast from wheelweight alloy cost me next to nothing except time, and with 4 & 6 hole molds, not even much of that. S/F....Ken M
Gene Econ
08-02-2005, 08:01
[QUOTE=EchoSixMike]Have you considered casting instead of swaging?
Have been casting bullets for twenty five years. Back in the old days (he, he, he) wheel weights were pretty consistent of alloy. These days you don't know what you are getting and much of that is toxic as hell when melted. So, I really try to avoid melting, alloying, and fluxing molten lead. I melt and alloy lead once a year for the billetts I use to extrude lead wire for rifle bullet cores and if I could buy the billets instead of casting them I would -- to avoid exposure to the fumes of molten lead.
So, I prefer to either buy copper washed or jacketed bullets for the pistols. For one thing, the cost between buying them and casting them is minimal at best and the time I have spent casting bullets, inspecting bullets, then lubricating and sizing the bullets is significant -- even when I run two furnaces and use six and eight cavity gang molds. Not enough output and too much time spent.
Bottom line though remains buying dies and finding a source for pistol jackets at a reasonable price. I can buy a lot of good quality copper washed or jacketed bullets for the .45 and Super .38 for the price of dies for one caliber. If I want to go the cheap end, I can buy hard cast bullets and just keep the velocities down so as not to lead the barrel.
Gene
SFRADIOMAN
08-02-2005, 11:13
Gene:
It is great to see you on this site. I knew you would be a great asset and have a lot to share. I will look forward to seeing as much as you have time for.
For others who do not know Gene very well yet, he is a modern day hero. He trains people how to defend themselves, go on the offensive when necessary, how to be snipers but most of all how to save lives. He is not just another shooting instructor, he looks out for the individual, too. I have enjoyed sharing shooting stories with him for some time now.
Gene Econ,
Sir, I am probably comparing apples and oranges here but when I shot my Garand last weekend I noticed a difference in the recoil of the weapon and the pattern pretty much stayed the same too. The M2 ball that was left out in the sun for about 15-20 minutes (90+ and sunny) seemed to have changed the recoil to more of a "wham" against my shoulder than those that were kept covered (ie., more gradual and not nearly as abrupt). Did that hold true for your guys?
Gene Econ
08-02-2005, 20:58
Gene Econ,
Sir, I am probably comparing apples and oranges here but when I shot my Garand last weekend I noticed a difference in the recoil of the weapon and the pattern pretty much stayed the same too. The M2 ball that was left out in the sun for about 15-20 minutes (90+ and sunny) seemed to have changed the recoil to more of a "wham" against my shoulder than those that were kept covered (ie., more gradual and not nearly as abrupt). Did that hold true for your guys?
MAB and guys. My computer is locking up when I try to respond so if this gets through then fine. Will make it short though as I fear it won't send.
MAB -- get me at eugene.econ@lewis.army.mil so I can respond to your BC message.
Short but sweet -- you are using a military lot of extruded powder made at least thirty years ago. I have found military lots of extruded powder to be more sensitive to temperature changes than military lots of ball powder.
Don't confuse military IMR powders to commercial IMR powders although the names are the same. The military names powders based on burning characteristics and commercial powders tend to be more consistent in manufacture and less sensitive to changes in temperature.
Gene
SFRADIOMAN
08-02-2005, 21:35
Several years ago, I used to shoot between 1,000 and 2,000 rounds per week trapshooting. Until I became highly competitive, I used to handload most of my shells using a hydraulic press. I checked shot and powder frequently and loaded a pretty stable round. When we would travel from Ohio to Florida, we would sometimes shoot our way down and back.
In all states except Florida, we noticed no problems with our handloads. But, when we hit sea level, higher humidity and hotter outside temperature in Florida, we noticed our ammo was considerably less responsive. We would already take into account that the targets were getting out of the house faster. Finally we got a good chronograph and found we were 150 to 200 fps below the expected level. We should have been getting 1,200 fps but were getting 1,050 or less. Got back to Ohio and the same shells measured out to 1,200 on average.
We asked Federal, Remington and Winchester Pros and they said it was not uncommon for that to happen but they did not experience it with their new loads. We asked why not and they just smiled a wry smile and said we should shoot all new shells and not rely on reloads. As it would happen, I won a couple major shoots and several decent size shoots and magically, a pallet of new Winchester shells were delivered to my home. I put my reloader on the shelf except for 'special' loads and winter weather shooting.
Has anybody experienced similar problems with altitude, humidity and heat? Is there a difference in shotgun vs. rifle vs. handgun loads due to construction?
EchoSixMike
08-03-2005, 00:22
Gene, sorry, didn't mean to insult your intelligence, I didn't know you had some serious tooling, you sell commercially, or just for personal use? Now that Jimmy Knox is getting out and Berger is having problems with a bad lot of jackets, I may have to try my hand at VLD bullet making.
SFRadioman, the early lots(pre-00) of M118LR would often flatten primers when used at Lejeune in summer, 90 degrees plus and near 100% humidity. We didn't have any problems with 1998 lots of LR in Iraq and it was lots hotter(110+), but not as humid. We were using M40A3's in Iraq vice the M40A1's in Lejeune, but it's the same reamer. Different barrels however; old were Hart and the new stuff is all Schneider. S/F....Ken M
Gene Econ
08-03-2005, 07:52
Guys:
Need to clarify something about my views of ammo temp vs velocities and 'practical' ballistics as, like most threads, this one is taking on a life of its own.
My first post said that I saw no 'practical' effect from changing ammo temp of issued M-118 Special Ball from about fifty degrees to about 120 degrees F.
Most certainly, velocities went up. Most certainly a zero would change -- probably by about a minute of angle. Rick has seen the effects of this and so have I. OK -- so it is a fact that a change will probably occur.
The bottom line for me is this -- is the change enough for it to effect hit probabilities? That is when I start terming things 'practical ballistics'. Why? Because I believe Ph must be considered with the environmental conditions that the shooter is firing in, target size and its own conditions, shooter and observer ability. In the conditions I talked about concerning our chronographing loads at Yakima, the shooters were good (not perfect), the targets were steel E's (same size and stationary) going from about 300 to 800, but the environmental conditions were rapidly shifing winds from about ten to twenty MPH, very bright sun, and dust / weeds blowing to some extent. The result was that this particular change in ammo temp -- although it most certainly had an effect on zero -- did not change hit probability due to other conditions.
Why go through this with the shooters? Because they get filled with shit at Ft. Benning and via the internet and instead of focusing on factors that make a difference in their true performance, they try to bullshit themselves and others with factors that don't have a bearing on their performance at that particular time in their development.
The interesting thing about being able to run such courses is two fold for me. First, I am not required to waste my time instructing the doctrine that Benning must instruct by their own training regulations. So I can focus time and resources on important issues -- such as reality for example. Second, I have a test bed of shooters -- most of whom are at the same level of total performance by the time we get into field firing and scenarios -- so evaluating cause and effect is easy and is relatively accurate in results.
Why go through all of this? Because I know there are other fellows reading this who have more experience and practical knowledge than I have and their observations confirm or deny things and perhaps bring forward ideas and concepts that perhaps I had never thought about.
Gene
Gene Econ
08-03-2005, 21:13
[QUOTE=EchoSixMike]I didn't know you had some serious tooling, you sell commercially, or just for personal use? Now that Jimmy Knox is getting out and Berger is having problems with a bad lot of jackets, I may have to try my hand at VLD bullet making.
E6M:
Can't insult my intelligence anymore. I am not sure how much I have left to insult -- he, he, he.
Knox is calling it quits eh? Not surprising as the bullet business is one of margins and the big outfits like Sierra, Nosler, and Hornady have the tooling and quality control to do a very good job on a margin of profit. Jackets are extremely difficult to make consistently -- thus the problems with M-118 Special Ball and about any issued bullet.
I have been buying J-4 Jackets for a few years now after Cotterusio (SP) had to about double his prices for Sierra jackets due to Sierra squeezing the swagers out of business. I bought bunch of J-4 Jackets a few years ago and so have a decent supply of quality .30 caliber jackets in a variety of lengths. A couple thousand Sierra jackets left as well. I think the Sierra design of jacket is a bit better in terms of balancing out the bullet but honestly am not positive.
I have some nose forming dies for VLDs but have never seen a quantifiable increase in accuracy or exterior ballistics attributes from them so I stick with conventional ogives. Funny that I normally shot more X's with the VLD tips but normally shot a lower score with the VLD tips as well. I have never seen a difference in elevation between a secant ogive or a tangent ogive either. This is where experimenting has made truth stranger than fiction for me. Same core alloy, same jacket length and manufacture, different ogives -- one a VLD and the other a standard #8 for some 185 grain bullets I have had the most success with in .30 caliber. Exactly the same pressures and holds on pressures when swaging each one. Same brass, loads, and primers. Absolutely no change in elevation to 600 yards and only about 1/2 minute difference at 1000 yards. And IMHO one can never be sure what the cause of an elevation difference is at 1000 yards. Shot more X's with the VLDs but always with a few points less in score.
My swaging experiences have lead me to believe that I can make a bullet as good as Sierra or Nosler but not a quantum leap above either. So, I swage out some bullets for across the course once a year in the winter when I want to keep my hands involved in the shooting sports but otherwise I fork over the money for a drop shipment of Sierras and Noslers.
Gene :lifter