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Smokin Joe
07-28-2005, 18:03
Currently I'm teaching our academy's Defensive Tactics courses. The cadets are retaining the material and moving along well in the "technical" areas. At the beginning before I taught them anything I taught a mindset class and since the beginning I have been reiterating the importance of their mindset.

Well today I gave them a small evaluation. First I instructed them on several strikes and nerve endings such as the Tibial nerve, the Common Peornial, the Radial nerve, etc etc.

They all demonstrated technical proficiency. I then gave them the evaluation. They had to strike the above nerve endings with 100% (or as close to 100% as they could possibly generate).

Here is my issue: Several wouldn't do it. They could not deliver 100% power due to their fear of hurting their class mate. I'm not into hurting students for no reason; however I think they need to be able to demonstrate that they can do these strikes with 100% power.

This has always been a problem with our new recruits. Mainly because they don’t believe in the very real danger that awaits them upon graduation.

I need some help on training this attitude out of these guys. Help, recommendations, links, resources, etc are all welcome.

Thank you,

Joe

Kyobanim
07-28-2005, 19:34
If they have developed the muscle memory to perform the technique accurately all the time, why the need to deliver 100%?

In the greater scheme of things, IMO of course, I would be happier with a student that could do it with accuracy and still have the control to be able to pull the hit. Bring in a stranger and get them wound up and I bet they are better than the ones that hit at 100%.

Again, just my opinion.

Smokin Joe
07-28-2005, 19:54
If they have developed the muscle memory to perform the technique accurately all the time, why the need to deliver 100%?

In the greater scheme of things, IMO of course, I would be happier with a student that could do it with accuracy and still have the control to be able to pull the hit. Bring in a stranger and get them wound up and I bet they are better than the ones that hit at 100%.

Again, just my opinion.

Unfortunately Kyo,

They don't have the muscle memory. I only get 42 hours to instruct all of our D.T. stuff including Baton, O.C. spray, Taser, and Handcuffing.

The only thing they are doing 100% is strikes to the above stated nerve endings.

Peregrino
07-28-2005, 20:20
SJ - Good Luck. What you describe is typical of "properly" socialized persons.

Here's some reading that may give you an insight into addressing the problem. (I'm not an LEO or a shrink - I have no professional credentials that will withstand scrutiny in a court of law - and that's the advice you need in this professional context. That's why you get the reading list - so you can explain why you did something to "modify" societal conditioning. Required disclaimer!)

"On Killing" by Grossman
"Training at the Speed of Life" by Murray
"Force Under Pressure, How Cops Live and Why They Die" by Blum

All of these also include extensive bibliographies with additional reading. The www.armiger.net website also has a link to Amazon.com where some of the more comprehensive titles are for sale.

Kyobanim does have a point about the advisability of 100% effort during training. I would encourage you to limit "Combat Speed" drills to Redman or Tony Blauer's protective systems. Full power against "friendly" training partners is likely to leave training scars that will negatively impact future street performance.

Just a couple hints. This does not answer your immediate need but it will help the next time you get stuck with this detail. Training, especially for combat is an evolving science. Much of what we thought we knew about adapting normal people for combat is proving to be inadequate. (Actually that's probably more true about dealing with the aftermath. Survival instincts will usually get the average well trained person through their first encounter.) If you can figure out how to bypass the conditioning without creating a bunch of sociopaths - please share it with the rest of us. My .02 - Peregrino

RLK
07-28-2005, 20:51
Having been on the receiving end of a brachial (sp?) stun, femoral strike and the like, are you sure you really want your students laying the smack down full force?

Smokin Joe
07-28-2005, 21:50
Having been on the receiving end of a brachial (sp?) stun, femoral strike and the like, are you sure you really want your students laying the smack down full force?

Its a 1 shot deal.

They only perform it 1 time throughout the entire training.

Peregrino,

Thank you for the links and resources. "On Killing" is actually next on my reading list anyways so I just need to acquire the others.


After re-reading my original post I'm not sure if I'm effectively articulating the deficiencies that I'm seeing. Its more of an inablitiy to commit or a lack of conviction if you will. Almost (but not quite) the "On no that won't happen to me" mentality....almost complacency (without ever doing the job).

AngelsSix
07-30-2005, 09:22
We used pads to do ours and then no one was seriously hurt, but a little sore and bruised. We all delivered 100% strikes to our classmates. If the instructor felt we didn't, he made us do it until we did. The Red Man suit is perfect for this training, if you can get your hands on one. We also paired males with females, large with small for some reality. Some 6 foot 200 lb. dude comes at me, I am going to beat the crap out of him. The psychological aspect of size works super in training. Hard to do with a bunch of guys equal in size and stature, though.

L51
08-06-2005, 15:36
Joe,

I know what you mean. A few weeks ago we had a four day new-guy training for a couple of guys that just got out of the academy. We also had to remediate a couple of officers that were currently in the FTO program because of some officer safety issues and the brass wanted to give them some more time before canning them. The problem was perception of danger. During some Red Man scenario training, on of the officers decided to handcuff the suspect without waiting for their fill unit and then when it was time to use the baton, kept laughing like it was a game. Then in other scenarios couldn't perform and blamed it on "being a scenario" and not wanting to hurt the instructor, blah blah blah.

After that class, I have begun to think that you can teach them the technical aspects and try to instill the mental preparedness but after that it is going to be on them to be "switched on" or have their head up their a$$. you can hope that they will get their act together once they get on the street, and maybe they just need to have something go wrong on the street for them to start to pay attention. You just hope that nobody else gets hurt because of their problems......

It was a few years ago, but in my town there was a local transient that would always fight with the cops and the FTO's used to purposely aggitate this guy so their trainees wouold have to fight him. This may be a good thing to try.....

But it gets worse when you have a cop or worse a supervisor who has been on the job for 20 years and during that time has never had anything bad happen to them.....Don't even try to talk about being complacent....This is all I hear, "Well, it hasn't happened in my twnety years here....." I just want to bang my head on the wall.....

rant off.

stay safe,
m

Smokin Joe
08-06-2005, 16:36
It was a few years ago, but in my town there was a local transient that would always fight with the cops and the FTO's used to purposely aggitate this guy so their trainees wouold have to fight him. This may be a good thing to try.....


Oh that is SO, SO tempting but I think I would get my ass in a very tight sling over doing something that malicious....

I am still hammering mindset and S/A to these guys some are coming around some are not. We shall see how they do in their scenarios. I recently came across 2 videos...1 took place on the street where a female officers gets her lunch in about 5-10 seconds, the other takes place in a jail where an inmate pounds the crap out of an officer for about 30 seconds. This woke a few of them up. I will locate the videos when I get home and post links.


But it gets worse when you have a cop or worse a supervisor who has been on the job for 20 years and during that time has never had anything bad happen to them.....Don't even try to talk about being complacent....This is all I hear, "Well, it hasn't happened in my twnety years here....." I just want to bang my head on the wall.....

rant off.

stay safe,
m

Couldn't agree more...the only thing I hate more than veterans who make those statements are adminstrators that make those statements.

Smokin Joe
08-06-2005, 16:41
We used pads to do ours and then no one was seriously hurt, but a little sore and bruised. We all delivered 100% strikes to our classmates. If the instructor felt we didn't, he made us do it until we did. The Red Man suit is perfect for this training, if you can get your hands on one. We also paired males with females, large with small for some reality. Some 6 foot 200 lb. dude comes at me, I am going to beat the crap out of him. The psychological aspect of size works super in training. Hard to do with a bunch of guys equal in size and stature, though.


Guess I missed this...

Angels I agree. I constantly have them switch partners throughout the day. When demonstration time comes I have everyone demonstrate techniques on both genders and on 3 different body types in each gender.

L51
08-06-2005, 17:11
I recently came across 2 videos...1 took place on the street where a female officers gets her lunch in about 5-10 seconds, the other takes place in a jail where an inmate pounds the crap out of an officer for about 30 seconds. This woke a few of them up. I will locate the videos when I get home and post links.

You know, in that class we did show some videos and one of the officers just laughed while the offer in the video was fighting with the suspect....Pissed me off so bad I had to leave the room or I would have gone apeshit on the officer.....I would love to see what videos you have, I'm trying to get a bunch of them together to burn onto a CD or DVD.


Couldn't agree more...the only thing I hate more than veterans who make those statements are adminstrators that make those statements.


You are absolutley right brother. Its like, "Do you even hear what you are saying?!" But thats because its been so long since they have been on the street.....

Spartan359
08-06-2005, 18:14
I'm no professional on this subject. But from what I've read it sounds like the students are afraid to hit their opponent because they view them as a friend. They are not taking it serious enough. Maybe you could have a disclosed instructor come in and be a complete dick. By that I mean totally aggressive. Make the students mad enough to WANT to hit him full force. Just a suggestion. I'm sure TR or TS will be along soon enough to give better advise than I. FWIW my .02.

Smokin Joe
08-06-2005, 19:11
I'm no professional on this subject. But from what I've read it sounds like the students are afraid to hit their opponent because they view them as a friend. They are not taking it serious enough. Maybe you could have a disclosed instructor come in and be a complete dick. By that I mean totally aggressive. Make the students mad enough to WANT to hit him full force. Just a suggestion. I'm sure TR or TS will be along soon enough to give better advise than I. FWIW my .02.


Unfortunately the opportunity has passed for the 100% striking evaluation.

I wish I could use a Shinai to drive home my points (like my old Professor used to do) but the adminstration was already crapping themselves when they heard what I was doing with the 100% strike evaluation.

I have now been directed that I will no longer have ANY cadet or student strike another without some sort of pad or protective device in place. :rolleyes:

So, while teaching pressure point striking I can only have the cadets touch each other....effectively taking away my ability to have them feel the effects of what they are deploying. Also taking away my ablity to evaluate there effectiveness, aim, and technique.

......I don't think I will be teaching D.T. (here) much longer.

Like I said earlier I'm not into beating or punishing Cadets but I strongly believe they need to feel what the technique or device can do to someone (save using deadly force). If an officer doesn't believe or doesn't know the effectiveness of a strike to the Common Pearonal they will never use it and discard it as a waist of time. Same with any other pressure point strike.

Okay sorry Rant OFF

Spartan359
08-06-2005, 19:35
Joe,
It was a few years ago, but in my town there was a local transient that would always fight with the cops and the FTO's used to purposely aggitate this guy so their trainees wouold have to fight him. This may be a good thing to try.....



Sorry I didn't see this.

Smokin Joe
08-07-2005, 18:34
Here are 2 of the videos I showed them; to make them focus a little more.

www.dtdude.com/copassault.wmv

www.dtdude.com/officer_v_inmate.wmv

Spartan359
08-07-2005, 19:15
That second video ended kinda strange. Did you get the reactions you wanted out of your students?

Smokin Joe
08-07-2005, 19:44
That second video ended kinda strange. Did you get the reactions you wanted out of your students?

Agreed, the second video had a B.S. ending but I wanted to show the hyper-violent attack plus the duration of time in which it took for help to arrive.

It effected everyone but changed 2 students to get there head in the game. I call that a small victory. :lifter

Spartan359
08-07-2005, 20:14
Agreed, the second video had a B.S. ending but I wanted to show the hyper-violent attack plus the duration of time in which it took for help to arrive.

It effected everyone but changed 2 students to get there head in the game. I call that a small victory. :lifter


Big or small...still a victory.