View Full Version : South Paw Shooting
Gene Econ
07-24-2005, 19:32
Fellows:
Read through that thread from a fellow suggesting he wanted a left handed bolt rifle. Might as well stir the pot some and see what comes up. May be some good ideas and thoughts to come out of this.
My thoughts on this are pretty simple. God made someone left handed and why not go with the flow? I know left handed bolt rifles are about twice as expensive as right handed ones. However if a fellow isn't in the Army and wants a rifle to fit what God gave him -- and has the money to do so -- then what is the big deal? I won't hold my breath waiting for the Army to issue another bolt rifle -- let alone any left handed bolt rifles though so don't think I am suggesting the Army issues another bolt rifle, let alone some that are left handed.
When running local SOTIC courses here at Lewis we had more than one SF man shoot the 24 left handed and do so for the NMC phase of training where he had to maintain speed standards in rapid and sustained fore -- with the right arm in a rifle sling. These guys were faster and more precise reaching over the rifle with it canted somewhat and working the bolt with their left hand than if we had tried to force them to do something they weren't made to do. Never saw any problems once the optic was on either.
As for eye dominance -- I recall more than one 'eye dominance' guy forcing an otherwise good shooter to become a leftie when he was right handed and vice versa because of this peculiar idea of eye dominance. Eye dominance isn't the key to consistency and precision although it certainly helps. So I saw poor fellows who were right handed sling up with M-14s as south paws and proceed to abuse themselves while showing consistent failure. I told them to shoot the way God made them but their coach seemed to have a philosophy that eye dominance is the most important factor in shooting so he insisted they shoot with their weak hand and arm. None of these guys ever returned to precision shooting. If a fellow thinks he is left eye dominant and is a right handed shooter -- have him put a patch over his left eye when he shoots for a while and he will soon develop his right eye well enough.
A good shooting buddy of mine was a right handed shooter. He literally went blind in his right eye over a period of about two years. He had no choice but to train himself to shoot left handed. Fortunately for him, he wasn't a bolt gunner so he had a relatively easy time. Took maybe five or six years of continual work before he was competitive again. He does some long range shooting and bought a left handed Remington. He tells me he likes the left handed bolt but the rifle doesn't hold well enough for him. Out of the box Remington. Some do outstanding and some suck.
I figure a fellow who has his own rifle at home has the time to train himself to be a weak handed shooter. Fellows in the military who depend on the military for their fireams work may be better off sticking to what is natural for them. I have seen right handed guys shoot left handed for no reason other than they shoot left handed. Very uncommon but I have seen it.
So, let the fun begin!
Gene
My sniper buddy was left handed shooting the 24 and was in the top 10% of our class...I'd say he adapted well and even did well during stress shoots. honestly I don't know if he could have done better even with a left-handed bolt.
I have seen eye dominance issues up close and personal. My wife is left eye dominant, but a right handed shooter. She has taught herself overcome it and does well. My youngest son is left eye dominant but right handed...as he matured more he struggled. He naturally kept going back to shooting left handed because it was easier for him to shoot left handed than train himself to shoot right handed...he's fairly ambidextrous, so does well left-handed/left-eye dominant while being a right-handed person.
Spartan359
07-24-2005, 20:41
I'm a south paw. Shooting with the right arm just doesn't feel right. BUT I'm right handed, hows that for a freak of nature. :D
I know left handed bolt rifles are about twice as expensive as right handed ones. not really...i'd say the mark up is more like 10% if you go out of the box, like Remington or Sako...my 7mm RemMag is a Remington 700BDL LH, my .338WinMag is a Sako...my 12 gauge is a Remington 870 LH...
As for eye dominance -- I recall more than one 'eye dominance' guy forcing an otherwise good shooter to become a leftie when he was right handed and vice versa because of this peculiar idea of eye dominance. as long as i consistently trained with both eyes, i didn't have much of a problem going from left eye to right...we practiced shooting from both sides in Weingarten and other CQB locales...the problem is that we didn't always have the luxury of practicing from both sides...i was as good with an M60 Machine Gun from the right side as i was from the left...in a lifetime of shooting, however, the left eye is still very dominant...extremely dominant, to the point an idiot optician in the Army was thinking about "correcting" my left eye, as it was much more farsighted than my right eye...(this is not to say that farsightedness is an indicator of eye dominance, it just was in my case)...now that i don't worry about switching sides, being shot at from my weak side, etc., my right eyed abilities are not what they used to be...in fact, they are pretty weak...but until game animals are issued guns, i should be okay...
I figure a fellow who has his own rifle at home has the time to train himself to be a weak handed shooter. Fellows in the military who depend on the military for their fireams work may be better off sticking to what is natural for them. I have seen right handed guys shoot left handed for no reason other than they shoot left handed. Very uncommon but I have seen it.time and training are the keys to shooting with either hand...given the limited time we had to train and the limited resources we often faced (range time more so than ammuntion), i tend to agree that one should work with their dominant side...as a lefty, i can shoot right handed, also ( a matter of necessity when it comes to crew served weapons)...but i had to train alot to be able to do it effectively...
i am not sure a righty should spend the money on a left-hand bolt action rifle, except to maybe sell it to me at a discount...
Gene Econ
07-24-2005, 20:56
[QUOTE=Dan]My wife is left eye dominant, but a right handed shooter. She has taught herself overcome it and does well.
Dan:
Ask her how she overcame this situation. I would be interested to learn how she overcame this situation. I call it a 'situation' because unless one eye is dramatically different than the other -- and I mean almost blind -- I have seen the eye dominance issue used by shooters as an excuse for failure and by coaches as an excuse for failing to coach their shooter.
Gene
Gene Econ
07-24-2005, 20:59
[QUOTE=Spartan359]I'm a south paw. Shooting with the right arm just doesn't feel right. BUT I'm right handed, hows that for a freak of nature.
How could you be a South Paw and right handed? That is weird.
Gene
[QUOTE=Dan]I call it a 'situation' because unless one eye is dramatically different than the other -- and I mean almost blind -- I have seen the eye dominance issue used by shooters as an excuse for failure and by coaches as an excuse for failing to coach their shooter.how so...? what does eye dominance have to do with shooting...? as long as someone is using their dominant eye, as long as they practice using their dominant side, how does eye dominance factor into anything...?
middle age, however, seems to present an obstacle...i have noticed that the rear sights of my pistol are way too close and my arms have shrunk...
How could you be a South Paw and right handed? That is weird. maybe he throws right handed, but uses the left for fine motor skills....?
The Reaper
07-24-2005, 21:15
IIRC, the original comment was that right handed, right eye dominant shooters would choose to shoot left handed rifles so that they could cycle the bolt with their left hands and never take their dominant hand off the grip.
The discussion of lefties shooting right handed and left eye dominant shooters being forced to change is different than the original question Gene referred to.
TR
maybe i'm reading this wrong, but Gene refers to LH shooters cycling an RH bolt with the left hand, with the right arm remaining in a sling...the dominant hand (in this case, the left) has to reach over the top of the rifle to operate the bolt and thus, leaves the grip...unless i am missing something...
i had a Winchester Model 700 that i used to shoot that way....it seemed natural at the time...
.extremely dominant, to the point an idiot optician in the Army was thinking about "correcting" my left eye, as it was much more farsighted than my right eye
Being an optician, I resemble that remark. :D As you indicated you are really speaking of apples and oranges. Dominance has nothing to do with VA (visual acuity). The dominate eye is the one the brain chooses as its primary. People with equal VA in both eyes still have a dominate eye. If the power of one eye is greatly different from the other, you will suffer from double vision (di-plopia). :p
Being an optician, I resemble that remark.if the dominant eye had great VA than the other, with the other being normal, more or less, would you recommend glasses to degrade the VA of the dominant eye to that of the normal eye... i think not...but the guy i saw at Bragg thought that was the answer...
If the power of one eye is greatly different from the other, you will suffer from double vision (di-plopia).true...especially after a few at the club... :D
more or less, would you recommend glasses to degrade the VA of the dominant eye to that of the normal eye.
The old saying about not fixing it if it ain't broke applies.
I have poor vision, 20/200) in my left eye and 20/30 in the right. The left eye is from macular degeneration and no amount of optics will correct it. I do have double vision but have learned to tune out the left eye. Having different power in each eye can be an advantage for older folks. Different powers of contacts are prescribed so you have far vision in one eye and read with the other. This is now being done with laser surgery.
Howsumever, this ain't shooting so y'all get back on the subject while I get my beauty sleep. ;)
Right Handed - Right Eye Dominant - Choose Left Handed Rifles so they could keep dominant hand on rifle while cycling rifle with left hand.
Would there a be a that significant a difference to this setup (in marksmanship/stability) to warrant the time adjusting and training? (Other than being ambidextrous) And would the same apply to a pump shotgun?
Spartan359
07-24-2005, 22:07
maybe i'm reading this wrong, but Gene refers to LH shooters cycling an RH bolt with the left hand, with the right arm remaining in a sling...the dominant hand (in this case, the left) has to reach over the top of the rifle to operate the bolt and thus, leaves the grip...unless i am missing something...
i had a Winchester Model 700 that i used to shoot that way....it seemed natural at the time...
You got it right lksteve.
I've never fired a LH bolt rifle. The action of cycling the round and having my damn hand in my face somewhat annoyed me on Rh bolt rifles. Other than that small annoyance I didn't find it to bad to shoot them. Because I didn't want to pay abit more money for a left handed bolt I chose to buy the M-14. (IIRC the Army field manual for the M-14 {TM 9-1005-223-12 I think?} even states that if you are a left handed shooter you need to correct your ways and shoot right handed). And to answer your questions about my defunked ways on shooting I do everything with my right hand...write, shoot pistols, throw rocks, etc. Luck has it that I'm left eye dominant and I find it more comfortable to fire rifles and shotguns left handed. Don't even get me started with pistols. I apologize Reaper if I hijacked this thread for a bit.
Would there a be a that significant a difference to this setup (in marksmanship/stability) to warrant the time adjusting and training? (Other than being ambidextrous) And would the same apply to a pump shotgun?i don't believe so...this has been discussed earlier...pump shotguns really require no adjustment, at least i never had to adjust for the difference...i own an LH pump because i can...
I do everything with my right hand...write, shoot pistols, throw rocks, etc. Luck has it that I'm left eye dominant and I find it more comfortable to fire rifles and shotguns left handed. cross-dominance isn't all that unusual...it probably requires more adaptation on your part than being left handed did on mine...
The Reaper
07-24-2005, 22:18
Would there a be a that significant a difference to this setup (in marksmanship/stability) to warrant the time adjusting and training? (Other than being ambidextrous) And would the same apply to a pump shotgun?
You do understand English, do you not?
TR
Spartan359
07-24-2005, 22:27
Chirs now has The Reaper on attack mode. :D
My apologies, caught sleeping. :(
-Chris
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-25-2005, 04:50
[QUOTE=Gene EconHow could you be a South Paw and right handed? That is weird.
Gene[/QUOTE]
I shoot a long gun and bow left-handed and a pistol right handed and have never had a problem doing either. Actually was able to transition to my left hand for pistol during a period of time I could not use my right because of a temporary injury and while not as good with my left as my right I could still meet the standards required. I mastered my sniper skills by using either hand to depress the push to talk switch on my radio directing my sniper teams :D .
BMT (RIP)
07-25-2005, 05:27
I'm a lefty but can not shoot anything left handed.
BMT
Gene Econ
07-25-2005, 07:43
[QUOTE=Spartan359] (IIRC the Army field manual for the M-14 {TM 9-1005-223-12 I think?} even states that if you are a left handed shooter you need to correct your ways and shoot right handed).
The Army writes a lot of stupid things in their doctrine. The fact is that the Army for many years couldn't handle the thought of anyone doing something with a firearm that was different than anyone else. Canting rifles or pistols is another one that the Army hates for absolutely no solid reason.
If a fellow wants to swap sides with his shooting then he can go for it. I would caution someone about this if their decision was based only on Army marksmanship doctrine though.
Do well with what ever you are firing.
Gene
mumbleypeg
07-25-2005, 08:26
I'm a lefty but can not shoot anything left handed.
BMT
Being left handed, I greatly appreciate the above statement.
I'm left handed and right eye dominant. I tend to use my right hand for strength tasks and left hand for detail work.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-25-2005, 08:52
[
The Army writes a lot of stupid things in their doctrine.
And that surprises you? Remember who writes Army doctrine, who reviews it, and who approves it! I realize that this was a rhetorical question, but just couldn't resist.
Jack Moroney-former DOTD where balancing common sense over command directives became an art form.