View Full Version : Issued Back Up Irons (BUIS)
Gene Econ
07-21-2005, 18:51
Guys:
Have been doing some train the trainer with NCOs and Officers from 2 CR (SBCT). Brand new M-4s with the issued BUIS and 68's.
The BUIS that the Army is issuing is calibrated in hundreds of meters for elevation. 300 then a line across the elevation indicator. I take it that the line is the zero mark for 300?
Not that it matters particularly as these BUIS are poorly made and are prone to breaking but I really do want to know and I can't find the little TM that comes with them.
OK guys -- what is it for zero on these things -- the 300 or the line under the 300 marking?
Oh yes -- I zero the guys at 300 -- I don't care for zeroing at reduced ranges.
Thank you
Gene Econ
Welcome Gene...good to see you here...now be a good guy and post a brief introduction in the Intro thread or i will be forced to tell everyone that you are a card-carrying member of the ACLU and have an HRC for President sticker on the bumper of your Subaru, right next to the one that says I Brake for Spotted Owls... :p
go to this link, per favore...
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=86700#post86700
Team Sergeant
07-21-2005, 22:43
Welcome Gene...good to see you here...now be a good guy and post a brief introduction in the Intro thread or i will be forced to tell everyone that you are a card-carrying member of the ACLU and have an HRC for President sticker on the bumper of your Subaru, right next to the one that says I Brake for Spotted Owls... :p
go to this link, per favore...
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=86700#post86700
lksteve, didn't you get the memo? ;) Many of us already know Gene....
Gene,
Welcome aboard. Who is making these sights?
Team sergeant
25-Meter Zeroing Procedures
(By following the steps below and establishing a zero at 25 meters, your M16A2 rifle sights will be set with a 300-Meter Battlesight.)
1. Do not move Front Sight post at this time. It was set at the factory or by a previous shooter and should be very close to your zero.
2. Center the Rear sight aperture by turning the windage knob left or right. (This is called Mechanical Zero Windage.)
3. The Unmarked aperture should be up.
4. Rotate elevation knob in the Down direction (counter-clockwise). The Elevation Knob should stop Three Clicks past the 300-Meter mark (NOTE: newer rifles may be set like this do not worry about it). The rear sight should be all the way down on the last whole 'Click' before it bottoms out. This is called Mechanical Zero Elevation for the rear sight. If your range scale will not line up in the above manner, an armorer will be required to adjust the range scale for you. (NOTE: Again this really is not required - some rifles bottom out on the 3/8 [or 3/6 for carry handles]. If you really want to adjust it then see the note at the end of these instructions.)
5. Now rotate the Elevation Knob "Up" once click past the 300-Meter mark. From this point on, the rear sight elevation knob should not be moved. Any changes in elevation required in the following zeroing steps are made to the Front Sight Post ONLY.
6. Carefully aim and fire at the center of the target bull's-eye. Take your time and be sure to use the sight picture illustrated (in the Operator's Manual).
7. If your shot group is not in the Center of the bulls-eye, use the squares on the target sheet to calculate the required "Clicks" necessary to move you next shot group (Squares are 3/8" x 3/8") into the bulls-eye. (Remember that any changes in elevation are made by moving the front sight post.) The squares are numbered around the edges of the target (see the Operators Manual for an illustration of the Target) to equal the number of clicks required to move the shot group to the bull's-eye.
Barrel Length Change Per Click
20" 3/8" for Elevation
20" 1/8" for Windage
14.5"/16" 1/2" for Elevation
14.5"/16" 3/16" for Windage
8. In order to Raise your next shot group, rotate the front sight post clockwise. (one click will move the strike of the bullet one vertical square on the target sheet [20" rifle with A2 sights] - or consult the table in step 7).
In order to Lower your next shot group, rotate the front sight post counter-clockwise (one click, as above, equals one square).
Changes in windage are made with the windage knob. (Three clicks will move the strike of the bullet one horizontal square on the target sheet.)
In order to move the shot group to the Left, turn the windage knob counter-clockwise.
In order to move the shot group to the Right, turn the windage knob clockwise.
9. Carefully aim and fire another group at the center of the target bulls-eye.
10. Repeat steps 7 through 9, if required.
11. If your group is on target, your sight is now "Calibrated". To place your actual 300-Meter zero on the Rifle, you must rotate the elevation knob on click "Down". (The range scale's 300-Meter mark should now be aligned with the mark on the receiver.)
NOTE: If your rifle bottoms out at 8/3 then follow these instructions to get the sight to bottom out at 8/3 –2 clicks.
1. Flip the rear sight back to the unmarked aperture. This will reveal a hole in the top of the handle.
2. Rotate the sight wheel all the way down. Will probably be exactly at 8/3 (6/3). Don’t force it down.
3. Using a 1/16" Allen wrench loosen the screw (under the revealed hole) in the sight wheel 3 full turns. Leave the wrench in the screw.
4. Rotate the bottom half of the sight wheel two clicks clockwise. This will raise the sight body if you look at it while you’re turning it.
5. Tighten the Allen screw, remove the wrench, and confirm the sight bottoms out at 2 clicks BELOW 8/3. If not repeat the procedure until it’s right.
Are you talking about the Matech sights?
If it's the same BUIS we have, and it sounds like it is, we zero ours on the 300 mark using a standard 25m range and M4 zero target. It's dead on once you actually move back and start firing at actual distances. The furthest I've checked it is at 400 though. Hope this helps.
Finally able to see Gackmans picture and that's the one we use. Thanks Gack.
Gene Econ
07-22-2005, 07:26
If it's the same BUIS we have, and it sounds like it is, we zero ours on the 300 mark using a standard 25m range and M4 zero target. It's dead on once you actually move back and start firing at actual distances. The furthest I've checked it is at 400 though. Hope this helps.
Yes -- same sight. That line must be the 25 meter zero index. Again -- not that it matters considerably but I just wanted to be sure.
Thank you.
Gene
Gene Econ
07-22-2005, 07:30
[NOTE: If your rifle bottoms out at 8/3 then follow these instructions to get the sight to bottom out at 8/3 –2 clicks.
1. Flip the rear sight back to the unmarked aperture. This will reveal a hole in the top of the handle.
2. Rotate the sight wheel all the way down. Will probably be exactly at 8/3 (6/3). Don’t force it down.
3. Using a 1/16" Allen wrench loosen the screw (under the revealed hole) in the sight wheel 3 full turns. Leave the wrench in the screw.
4. Rotate the bottom half of the sight wheel two clicks clockwise. This will raise the sight body if you look at it while you’re turning it.
5. Tighten the Allen screw, remove the wrench, and confirm the sight bottoms out at 2 clicks BELOW 8/3. If not repeat the procedure until it’s right.[/QUOTE]
This is something I was aware of but had never seen a step by step method of adjusting. Excellent.
The BUIS I was referring to is a different sight than the one you have described for zeroing. You are describing the issued A-2 and M-4 sight. I am talking about the BUIS that is shown in a picture by another PS member in this thread.
Gene
Gene Econ
07-22-2005, 07:37
[Who is making these sights?
Not sure but I will find out in order to avoid anything else that company is making.
My view of this particular sight is that it is generally poor in quality and design. However, it is what is being issued so we use it to the best that it can give which is probably as much as anyone cared to design for a back up iron.
For better or worse -- the Army will eventually have no need for conventional iron sights anymore. If the Army continues down the path of this particular model, it will render itself obsolete as it is so poor that almost anything else will give better performance.
Gene
Peregrino
07-22-2005, 10:19
[Who is making these sights?
Not sure but I will find out in order to avoid anything else that company is making.
My view of this particular sight is that it is generally poor in quality and design. However, it is what is being issued so we use it to the best that it can give which is probably as much as anyone cared to design for a back up iron.
For better or worse -- the Army will eventually have no need for conventional iron sights anymore. If the Army continues down the path of this particular model, it will render itself obsolete as it is so poor that almost anything else will give better performance.
Gene
Finally - Something worse than the KAC BUIS. Nice to know the Army still spends its money wisely. I know you're not in the decision loop BUT - rhetorical question - why does the Army waste money on delicate, complicated (or both) BUIS'? There are better solutions available as you've already implied. So far I can't complain about the ARMS 40Ls I have for my carbines - and I don't worry about not having an adjustable range capability.
Training question - You appear to be in a position to talk to the troops regularly. Do any of them actually take the time to adjust their rear sight for range when the bullets are flying? (I won't even ask about the Aimpoints.) Personally I don't recall anybody ever doing it. Bad guys never presented exactly at the zero range and ranges always changed too rapidly to waste time screwing (literally) with sights. Once we had a battle sight zero we always used holdover/under when ranges differed from zero. Nor did I ever teach it as a viable method for anything except target shooting - not something I was ever interested in doing with a BUIS. So what's the point of the current issue sight? Again - I can't help but think/agree that the Army has wasted a lot of money on a POS.
FWIW - Peregrino
Gene Econ
07-22-2005, 21:46
[QUOTE=Peregrino]Training question - You appear to be in a position to talk to the troops regularly. Do any of them actually take the time to adjust their rear sight for range when the bullets are flying? (I won't even ask about the Aimpoints.)
It depends on the individual and his level of confidence. 3/2 SBCT was located in Mosul and vicinity. 1/25th SBCT replaced 3/2 SBCT in the same areas. Most (not all) battalions are in urban areas. 2/14 CAV out of 1/25th SBCT is in a much more open area.
The guys I spent time with and are / were in the urban areas have no need to hold over or adjust elevation so I can't say if they would or wouldn't given other circumstances. The guys I have spent some time with out of 2/14 CAV hold over or adjust sights depending on how much time they have.
1/25th SBCT took care in the training of thier machinegunners and it is somewhat natural for them to elevate for longer ranges providing there is a need to do so. Remember that most of the 249s and 240s use an ALCAN optic that has stadia for estimating ranges and holds. If you are in a city, take it off and go with the irons. If in the open areas -- zero it and the good machinegunners will use it as it is designed. This scope has its good and bad points but it is much better than the irons for mid to long range machinegunning as the gunner can actually see something past 300 for a change.
One thing I will assure you is that most of the guys I have spent time with will in fact 'call' their shots -- even under the most deadly of conditions. This I know for a fact having talked over things with them. I never really asked them why they thought this was important but just accepted that they thought it was important. I figure that a guy who trusts his calls will almost instantly correct an error even under extreme stress -- thus ensuring he gets a solid hit with follow on shots.
I stress calling shots from shot one taken under any condition. I have my reasons and apparently these guys used their calls as some sort of confidence foundation that allowed them to do quite well under extremely deadly situations. This calling shots in close combat did take me by surprise but apparently they did just that.
I zero guys up on a KD range at 300 yards. I don't trust reduced range zeros worth a damn and given I have a KD range -- it is easier for me to get a real zero at the real range. I will go past 300 with the service rifle or carbine providing I am confident the guys will do well. I don't think spending a bunch of time with them at 500 has any real value in terms of combat situations but I will do so to instill confidence in the men that their sights and rifle will do the job there. Only when I am convinced they will do well though. I never train to failure with marksmanship -- only success. I use a KD range for what it can give us. Then I use other ranges for what they can give us.
Gene
Peregrino
07-23-2005, 09:16
Gene - Thanks, that's good info. Kind of what I expected/hoped to hear. I'm glad units are getting competent marksmanship training. Magnification and stadia lines in the optics is why I'm looking at an ACOG as my next optic for a carbine. Peregrino
I like the ACOG alot on my carbine. I dont have one of the newer high speed ones, just a TAO1 NSN like what I had in AFG. It works well for me. It does have built in back up sights, not very precise but will work in a pinch. The ARMS 40L does seem like one of the better BUIS's available but I'm not totally sold on the idea when using a sight like the ACOG. With the trouble in getting the ACOG off your rifle, it seems that it would be just as easy to slap the carry handle back on there...
The Reaper
07-25-2005, 09:02
A cut-down carrying handle works well with zero mag optics like the Aimpoint, but I prefer a folding sight with the ACOG, which is pretty much bulletproof.
My ACOG goes on or off in less than 10 seconds, how long does it take you to do it?
TR
I guess I keep mine pretty tight or Im a fumblethumbs... Theoretical on my part as I never had to remove mine overseas. On my civilian weapon its not a problem as hordes of Taliban have not been recently spotted in Western Montana (although we have had tempting hordes of tourists..).
Plus, every ounce and inch in your pack makes a difference when you're humping the mountains. I had much rather have a small, lightweight BUIS already mounted on my M-4 than to be carrying a carry handle around on my kit. Just my .02 though.
A cut-down carrying handle works well with zero mag optics like the Aimpoint, but I prefer a folding sight with the ACOG, which is pretty much bulletproof.
My ACOG goes on or off in less than 10 seconds, how long does it take you to do it?
TR
Are you using an ARMS 19S?
The Reaper
07-26-2005, 13:03
Are you using an ARMS 19S?
ARMS #19 ACOG and a #40L iron sight.
TR
optactical
08-07-2005, 06:12
Gene Econ,
Welcome to the boards. This image may help you with your troubles.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/johnnyfat/33077ef3.jpg