View Full Version : Discipline problems in the IDF?
Don't know if this is lack of discipline or over zealous religious beliefs, but it doesn't bode well for a peaceful disengagement from Gaza.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=86032
DDD
Peregrino
07-18-2005, 15:12
Don't know if this is lack of discipline or over zealous religious beliefs, but it doesn't bode well for a peaceful disengagement from Gaza.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=86032
DDD
As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Jewish proverb.
This is the rest of "A Soldier's" moral dilemma about following orders. No sympathy here - at all. Peregrino
longrange1947
07-19-2005, 06:37
I would say religious zeal and not a general break down of discipline.
I say undisciplined religious zealots.
Entire Company Refuses Orders, IDF Rabbi Says to Disobey
13:57 Jul 25, '05 / 18 Tammuz 5765
By Ezra HaLevi
Refusal to participate in the Disengagement Plan continues to spread throughout the IDF, with an IDF officer, rabbi and an entire IDF company all declaring their refusal in recent days.
An entire company of the prestigious Golani Brigade refused to take part in the blockade of Kfar Maimon Wednesday. The company was to be deployed to take part in massive efforts by security forces to contain some 40,000 anti-expulsion protesters and prevent them from marching toward Gush Katif.
Before the company was deployed, the company commander briefed the soldiers. He asked at the conclusion of his speech whether any of the soldiers had a problem with the task assigned to them. One of the soldiers, not one of the brigade's many outwardly religious members, got up and said that he definitely did have a problem with the task. Others followed suit and, in the end, it was decided to send the soldiers elsewhere.
The Golani Brigade has already been removed from the inner circle of the Disengagement implementation forces altogether due to widespread concern among officers of mass refusal.
Once word of Golani’s removal from the front line got out, stickers began appearing throughout the country, with the Golani insignia and the words, “My Golani Does Not Expel Jews – Respect!” In recent weeks, stickers referring to other units have sprung up as well, including “Border Police Have a Border: Expelling Jews.”
Although the IDF rabbinate has been outspoken against refusing orders, to the extent that one IDF rabbi told six paratroopers who refused that their actions were “destroying the IDF and the redemption,” one IDF rabbi publicly urged soldiers to refuse orders to man the blockade of Gush Katif Sunday.
IDF Captain Rabbi Amital Bar-Eli, the chief religious officer of the Northern Gaza Brigade, called upon soldiers at the Kisufim Crossing to refuse orders Sunday evening.
Bar-El, a 30-year-old Be’er Sheva resident, arrived at the checkpoint in his private vehicle. When his passengers were requested to show their identity cards, they began speaking to the troops about the task assigned to them. Bar-Eli, seeing troops under his command demanding identity papers from residents entering Gush Katif, declared, “I would never give such an order to my soldiers.” He added that he considers the order both “illegal and immoral.”
“I would not give an order to my soldiers to uproot residents from their homes,” added Bar-El. “This is not why you joined the army,” he told the soldiers, “this is outrageous and you must refuse the order.”
Military officials indicated they plan to arrest the captain and hold a disciplinary trial for refusing orders and for inciting soldiers to refuse. IDF officials are concerned that because Bar-Eli made his call for refusal while in uniform, at a checkpoint and in front of a senior officer, his action signals a trend of high-profile refusals. The IDF’s current strategy is to try to keep refusals quiet, referring to them as isolated incidents, so as not to give the appearance of a movement that may jeopardize the implementation of the withdrawal.
Joining scores of IDF reserve officers who handed back their ranks at the Haifa draft office to protest the Disengagement two weeks ago, a lieutenant colonel returned his reserves card to the IDF Sunday. GOC of the Central Command, Major General Yair Naveh, announced Monday that the Lt.-Col. had been dismissed from his position and from any future position in the army.
Maj. Gen. Naveh invited the officer to a hearing where he clarified his position, namely that the army expects soldiers to carry out the decisions of the state and the military echelons and refrain from making political statements.
Peregrino
07-25-2005, 09:55
Sounds like sedition to me. Ranks right up there with treason. Peregrino
Still 3 weeks out from the disengaement date, so at this rate a Brigade will quit. If they don't stop this what will happen next time they're ordered to do something they don't like?
uboat509
07-25-2005, 10:16
This is probably the best news that Hamas and the other terrorist organizations have heard in a long time. Refusal bordering on mutiny in the much vaunted IDF that undermines the chain of command? The terrorists must be laughing themselves silly. I sincerely hope that the IDF crushes this before the terrorists are able to take advantage of it.
SFC W
CPTAUSRET
07-25-2005, 12:36
The civilian populace is also split on this.
The guys in uniform however, do not get to pick and choose which orders they follow.
This doesn't bode well for Israel.
Terry
Hi all
This is a very very complex matter and i will gladly present my insight as an Israeli. and a combat soldier (reserves).
Unfortuanately i don;t hvae the time now, but will be back shortly to elaborate.
SIncerely
Hoepoe
Perfect example of why an Army should not be used for enforcement against their own citizens. Soldiers have a strong commitment to the protection of the citizens of their homeland and their way of life, not law enforcement. To ask a man to forcibly remove a family, which he has sworn to defend, from it's home causes a serious moral delimma. Imagine being ordered to forcibly remove families from San Antonio because we were giving it back to Mexico.
BTW soldiers can choose which orders to follow, just be prepared to face the repurcussions of the refusal.
On the subject of Isreal, I believe Isreal is proof that, while extremely dangerous, Islamic terrorists are no real threat to the US. Look at all the Islamic nations aligned against Israel, yet it is still here, they can't even destroy a small, but strong democracy like Isreal, how can they even hope to challenge ours?
The Reaper
08-27-2005, 09:45
Sanwald, fill in your profile and read the stickies and intros before posting again.
BTW, your analysis of the Islamic threat appears weak and superficial.
And the country is spelled Israel.
TR
jester_2005
08-27-2005, 09:53
The civilian populace is also split on this.
The guys in uniform however, do not get to pick and choose which orders they follow.
This doesn't bode well for Israel.
Terry
your right about that, but their are those soliders that take it into there own hands to pick what they want. especially if they think it unlawful or not.
we troops do it in Vietnam. but, that was a different time and era of troops
A lawful order is a lawful order, period. These troops are violating a lawful order.
Who ever said soldiering was supposed to be easy?
Clearly, these individuals are in the wrong job and can't be trusted to do their job.
Makes you wonder what they will do in the future when they get another lawful order they "don't like."
A lawful order is a lawful order, period. These troops are violating a lawful order.
Who ever said soldiering was supposed to be easy?
Clearly, these individuals are in the wrong job and can't be trusted to do their job.
Makes you wonder what they will do in the future when they get another lawful order they "don't like."
Detcord, Every Jew in Israel is in the IDF, except the young and extremely old and few exceptions. Arabs may join but are not required too.
It is a very complex issue that can be easily misconstrued. I was hoping hoepoe would explain more. If you noticed the Gaza withdrawal went off pretty well.
CPTAUSRET
08-28-2005, 10:12
we troops do it in Vietnam. but, that was a different time and era of troops
I am not making total sense out of your post. You are implying that you were in VN?
I know a bit about VN, as do some others on here.
Terry
Spartan359
08-28-2005, 18:02
I am not making total sense out of your post. You are implying that you were in VN?
Terry
He's only 25. Like to know how that is possible.
CPTAUSRET
08-28-2005, 20:27
He's only 25. Like to know how that is possible.
Yup.
Terry
Hello all
Having just returned from time deployment in the IDF, i can tell you that the vast majority of soldiers, whether they agree or dissagree performed their duties diligintly, showing sensitivity and professionalism. I was not directly involved with the disingagement from Gaza, but was on operational deployment as a result of.
The IDF is a conscript/people's army and thus not everyone agrees with the actions or politics involved, but the methodology and human spirit shown by our soldiers and police made be proud to be a citizen of the State of Israel and a combat soldier in the IDF reserves.
Soldiers and police that were insubordinate were dealt with by the relevant courts, but sensitivity was shown due the very complex issues involved.
Just a small insight..
Hoepoe
The Reaper
08-29-2005, 07:14
hoepoe:
From what I saw, I agree.
Job well done, regardless of the politics.
TR
hoepoe, glad to see you back. I can't imagine that was an "easy" assignment, but to echo TR...job well done.
hoepoe, glad to see you back. I can't imagine that was an "easy" assignment, but to echo TR...job well done.
Thanks Gypsy, i was not actually directly involved in it, thankfully.
Hoepoe
monotheism
04-17-2006, 12:51
what makes the orders here "lawful"? Were the orders to carry out the final solution "lawful"? don't forget, Germany was voted in "democratically".
Promoting refusal to disobey immoral orders is the only way for the people to defy a country that has clearly turned into a dictatorship, with its leaders acting against the security interests of its citizens, ignoring the warnings of security experts and cynically manipulating the army to act as a private militia of the gov't.
As for the claim that terrorists are happy to hear that soldiers refuse orders, in reality the opposite is the case: hearing that soldiers have "red-lines", viz., abusing and endangering their own citizens, will make them more likely to see that they are dealing with people of principle, who are thus more formidable.
Kyobanim
04-17-2006, 12:56
what makes the orders here "lawful"? Were the orders to carry out the final solution "lawful"? don't forget, Germany was voted in "democratically".
Promoting refusal to disobey immoral orders is the only way for the people to defy a country that has clearly turned into a dictatorship, with its leaders acting against the security interests of its citizens, ignoring the warnings of security experts and cynically manipulating the army to act as a private militia of the gov't.
As for the claim that terrorists are happy to hear that soldiers refuse orders, in reality the opposite is the case: hearing that soldiers have "red-lines", viz., abusing and endangering their own citizens, will make them more likely to see that they are dealing with people of principle, who are thus more formidable.
monotheism,
Please fill out your profile and read the stickies before posting again.
Thanks
Kyo
I remember an israeli soldier struggling with this issue almost a year ago. I guess the problem seems to be getting worse.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7414
what makes the orders here "lawful"? Were the orders to carry out the final solution "lawful"?
You need to research the concepts of jus ad bellum and jus in bello.
(Hint: They do not mean the same thing.)
Next, I would recommend reading Just War Against Terror by Elshtain for a timely and relevant application of the ideas.
Finally, I hope that (after posting an intro as you were so politely asked to do), your time here will include more than the resurrection of necroposts using poor punctuation.
Cheers.
I remember an israeli soldier struggling with this issue almost a year ago. I guess the problem seems to be getting worse.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7414
Hello
The problem is not getting worse, we are talking about moving Israeli families from their homes, men, women and children. It is not easy for 18 and 19 year old conscripts to do and questioning what they are doing is a natural way to deal with the ttrauma.
IMHO, as a soldier, you are sworn to follow LEGAL orders. An order as voted in the government is legal and hence voicing ones own personal feelings is ok, but refusing to folow orders is not.
The Gaza pullout went off well as could be, Amona less so (+- 2 months ago), but nonetheless refusal was low.
As for a comparison to the WWII "final solution" above, come on, that is a provocative post. Does anyone think that medical experiments and gassing en masse is legal by human standards?
Although I am only a reserve soldier in the IDF today, i am proud of the IDF as one of the worlds most humane military forces endangering it's own soldiers lives to avoid harming civilians. Refusing legal orders is not an option and the definition of legal and illegal is not an opinion or emotion it is black and white on paper.
The only other time an order in my view may be refused, is if it clearly and definately endangers lives, such as sending troops into a combat situation without sufficient weapons, supplies, etc. This boils down to leadership and command is i think is for another thread.
Bottom line, when in the military, your ass belongs to the military. Orders may be questioned, clarified, not refused.
My humble .02
Hoepoe
Bottom line, when in the military, your ass belongs to the military. Orders may be questioned, clarified, not refused.
My humble .02
Hoepoe
I believe that to a degree. However, every man has his limits. When you mess with his family or what he loves most, any man with balls will go against the grain if it is something he believes is the right thing to do. If we will die for our country, we will die for what we believe in our hearts even if it goes against the government. Sometimes mutiny is the right thing to do. In Israel's situation. ??? I read this soldier's plea last year, and recently saw a couple of articles about a company refusing to obey orders. That doesn't tell me much. Congrats on a successful mission amidst all this controversy, and thanks for the insight.
TFM
I believe that to a degree. However, every man has his limits. When you mess with his family or what he loves most, any man with balls will go against the grain if it is something he believes is the right thing to do. If we will die for our country, we will die for what we believe in our hearts even if it goes against the government. Sometimes mutiny is the right thing to do. In israels situation. ??? I read this soldier's plea last year, and recently saw a couple of articles about a company refusing to obey orders. That doesn't tell me much. Congrats on a successful mission amidst all this controversy, and thanks for the insight.
TFM
TFM, even a soldiers family needs to follow the law, even when it's heartbreaking. Generally speaking, with a few exceptions, soldiers that lived in the 'territories" were not placed on missions where they would have to remove anyone from their own village or settlement.
Some soldiers ecpressed that they felt they could not do it, and they were given other back-line jobs.
Time to give the PC a rest!
Hoepoe
TFM, even a soldiers family needs to follow the law, even when it's heartbreaking. Generally speaking, with a few exceptions, soldiers that lived in the 'territories" were not placed on missions where they would have to remove anyone from their own village or settlement.
Some soldiers ecpressed that they felt they could not do it, and they were given other back-line jobs.
Time to give the PC a rest!
HoepoeUnderstood
Best Regards,
TFM
The Reaper
04-18-2006, 11:13
monotheism,
Please fill out your profile and read the stickies before posting again.
Thanks
Kyo
Tick tock.
TR