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Maas
02-25-2004, 19:00
A phrase I heard today during Parent - Teachers Conference describing the Presidents Education Program. I have a first and fourth grader.

Although both teachers I met were strong Democrats and quite pissed about the Education Secretary calling their union a "terrorist organization" they did make some valid points.

1. The test is 4 hours long, five days in a row. This is an incredible amount of time for me to sit still and concentrate, much less my 10 year old son.

2. Two students who just arrived from Russia have never attended school and will test in this group. Thus pulling the collective score down. Funding is based on these scores.

I have not kept up with this, but hoped maybe some of you might have some input.

What do you think about it?

The Reaper
02-25-2004, 19:08
I think the Home Schooling surge pretty much says it all about most public schools.

In the past 40 years, I have seen teachers as a group, go from caring, nurturing, well-educated members of the community to largely unqualified or underqualified hacks kept in their jobs only by a socialist, leftist agenda pushing union.

The sad part is, many parents don't care, and the school represents a free baby-sitting service for their unfocused, ill-behaved (but can do no wrong) progeny.

You get a school with open-minded, dedicated teachers, motivated students, and concerned parents it is a beautiful thing, but the educational system is designed to break those combinations up and reward the worst performers.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Dan
02-25-2004, 19:09
I think that many teachers will start to push their political beliefs on our children. Be sure to let your children know the real truth for that you know and believe and not that teachers across America believe politically.

I've made it a practice to watch things like the "State of the Union" with my boys. This year my 12 year old asked me if Kennedy and some of the others were Americans. Nuff said.

The Reaper
02-25-2004, 19:13
Dan:

You know, I am beginning to like you. In a non-homo kind of way, of course.

Tell CC to get his happy ass back in here.

TR

brewmonkey
02-25-2004, 19:33
I would have to echo TR's comments. We took our son out of the public schools this year as they are failing and failing quickly. His school is about to be taken over by the federal government because their test scores show no imporvement and in fact a steady decline.

Last year when the principal pulled students into the auditorium to give them a pep talk before the test, some parents took offense and suggested that she did it to demean the children. She was relieved and later fired for this.

There is no such thing as Special Ed anymore. They are all in class together, often in an overcrowded room, where they move at the pace of the slowest child. The special ed children recieve ONE extra hour a week of help from the Special Ed teacher.

I spent a good portion of the last year as a parent in the classroom assisting the teacher with the daily schedule. It is amazing to see that these kids do not care, and the parents are worse. It is true, school is a day care center and that is about it for most of the kids, second only to the fact that school is a fashion parade. it is horrible the way some people allow a 10 year old to dress, and then let them out of the house with that crap on. Morals are going down the tubes and it is the parents allowing it to happen

I would say that a good portion of the teachers do honestly want to educate children but there are some who seem to care even less then the children do. As far as teachers pushing their political views, that has been going on for some time. I distinctly recall my junior year Am. History teacher (a left over hippie) forcing her ideas onto us and giving me crap about my pro-military stance. You are right, you can counter that by helping in your childs education. But as we said, many parents think school is day care. Do you honestly believe they will lift a finger to help their child at home much less show them the other side of the coin?

My son has improved 100% since we removed him from the PS system. Now we have a normal 10 year old who stands a chance at a good education and getting into a better college.

Ok, enough of my dysfunctional ramblings.

shadowflyer
02-25-2004, 19:54
Men,


I have 2 kids and I am doing everything in my power to either send them to a private school here or to have my wife home school them. My son is special needs and I was NOT impressed with the program that the public schools put forth in front of me.

Both of my parents were public educators for 30+ years so I do know that good educators exist.

Best Regards,
JJ

myclearcreek
02-25-2004, 21:21
MCC, reporting as ordered. ;)

A little background:
My Dad taught fifth grade for over twenty years. He retired from teaching when the burden of paperwork took away so much of his time that he could no longer offer the quality of education that was his standard.

This is my fifth year to homeschool. My oldest son graduated last year, is taking some time off, then plans to attend college next Fall. It took one full year to undo the damage done by a school system that received an Exemplary rating (top score) from the state in several of the past ten years. That was damage done while I attended every meeting available, extensive phone calls, and all the support I could give to the teachers. I was, after all, a teacher's kid. The last two years, I spent every hour of my vacation time in meetings at the school. While the meetings seemed productive and the outcome both measurable and predictable, such was very rarely the case.

So, five years ago, after three years of my oldest son begging to be homeschooled, I quit my full-time job, brought my children home, and continued reading and learning about all things homeschool. Just today, I had to defend my right to homeschool my youngest son in a courtroom. I was successful. The journey for the next six years will not be easy, but is absolutely essential if I want my youngest son to have critical thinking skills. He has his own challenges, but with persistence, he has every opportunity to do almost anything he wants.

There are several public school teachers in my family - all support my decision and my efforts.

Standardized testing as it stands is a thorn that teachers and students must endure to appease bureaucrats. Every other year, I use the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills) to assess progress. It is not mandatory in my state, but is a tool for my use. It is long, but my funding does not depend on it, nor am I required to teach to it.

Rhonda

edited to add a comment about my Dad and get back on topic

Sacamuelas
02-25-2004, 21:40
Public school systems are definitely locality specific in performance. IMO, It is not the training level of teachers that has changed... well that would be the rare case for the reason of the public school's decline.

It is the children's attitudes and expectations. It is the lack of support from the administration to support the teacher's attempts at discipline. The lack of proper upbringing and individual responsibility being taught to this younger generation is probably the biggest problem in today's public schools.

As to my bias, both my parents were career public education teachers as well as one of my wife's parents. I went to public schools and so did my wife. I would send my kids to the high school of my city right now.

The teachers at the school get paid higher wages than at private schools. The high school, middle school, and two elem. facilities are new as of last year. There are cameras in every classroom to not only monitor the teachers but also to help enforce punishment for the troublemaker kids. Finally, the Bush education initiatives are being enforced and followed for teacher AND student performance. BOTH are being held accountable...They either put up or shut up.. If the kid is worthless and not going to folow the rules-off to CLC for his last chance before boot camp or worse. Teachers are given the heave ho if they don't stack up to the norms.

There is always someone waiting to get their job because of the city's pay supplement. I realize this is not a solution for most areas... but it is working in my area.

Sounds like good ole' missipp is not that bad off after all... so much for putting value in national education statistics .:p

myclearcreek
02-25-2004, 21:48
A friend recently adopted three Russian orphans. She spent the Summer teaching them how to eat with utensils, basic manners, and basic emotional security. By the time school started, they had exemplary manners, were eager to learn, and grateful for the opportunity to do so. By the end of the first six weeks, she had two boys who were rebellious, ungrateful, and constantly in trouble. The girl was succeeding in the classroom, but not as eager. She pulled the two boys out to homeschool and they are regaining lost ground by doing a seven-hour school day with additional help from a ESL tutor. The girl will finish this school year in public school, then homeschool with her brothers.

My friend calls the current state of public school a utopian orphanage based on their family's experiences with both. Survival at all costs is what her sons learned in both places.

Bill Harsey
03-01-2004, 14:16
Howdy Folks, I wandered out of my sandbox over in the knife section. Wow, very interesting discussion here. Just a footnote, we homeschool all three of our kids simply because failure is not an option. Thanks! Bill

Roguish Lawyer
03-01-2004, 14:17
I agree with The Reaper.

Question for the home-schooling folks:

How do college admissions offices view home schooling?

Bill Harsey
03-01-2004, 14:27
Roguish lawyer, Some University's here in Oregon really seem to like home schooled students. As a rule the home schooled are better prepared in many areas and this makes higher ed look better. The k-12's public schools and teachers unions are vehemently opposed because it threatens their jobs and takes away "their" tax dollars. Don't get much help from them and could care less, we still have to pay the taxes to support them AND foot the bill on our homeschooling. Footnote: All three of my kids made it to Oregon State Finals in competitive swimming, two of them are third year latin students (ages 13 and 14) and test at the highest level nationally. They also behave much better than their peers on many levels. Please do not confuse this with being perfect, they are consumate trouble makers too. Bill

Roguish Lawyer
03-01-2004, 15:03
One would think that home-schooled kids would add quite a bit of diversity to college campuses, but . . .

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 16:15
Some of my own recent observations:

While the US may lag behind other countries in subjects like math, geography, science and just about everything else, the one area I have seen US students shine is in critical thought. Critical thought is the primary component in an information based economy. I think home schooling may tend to discourage critical thought as well.

Bill Harsey
03-01-2004, 18:32
Jimbo Sir, Upon what do you base your accusation of "home schooled children" not having critical thought? Bill

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 18:39
Have to disagree as well.

Feeding kids a steady diet of liberal pablum and PC thinking is hardly likely to create critical thinkers.

Do you have kids in school, Jimbo?

TR

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 18:52
I do not have any kids, much less any in school. However, I have been taught by my father (CCD) and found that my behavior and attitude in his class was markedly different than in school and it had nothing to do with the subject matter. I don't challenge my father (or mother for that matter). I'm probably one of the kids that make you gentelmen take your kids out of school.

Most home schooled kids I have known (admittedly only a few) have excelled at rote learning and that was about it.

Allow me to tack on that the homeschooled kids I knew were from a time when the 'movement' was considerably less organized than it is now.

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 19:36
TR/Bill-
I encountered many home schooled classmates going through my post-high school education. On average, I found them to be just as capable in academic abilities and critical thinking skills. The only deficit that I have seen in the group is that they lack the ability to function well in peer groups. It is the only personal stereotype I have developed about the overall group. IMO, this leads them to have difficulty functioning on teams that don't necessarily agree to do things their way. I think it stems from the "your my #1 student" mentality that they get when mom is their teacher. They always graduate #1 in their class every year. They aren't expected to be responsible for themselves and their education. MOM is always on top of things... No way they can get out of doing their homework and learn the critical lesson of self-reliance.

I have seen this in numerous classmates and it tends to be a strong pattern in home schooled children. This is true of the non-formal independent home school parents and the national association/national convention type of home school parents.

How do most parents try to counter this? Easy and some parents succeed at it. They enroll them in athletics, arts, groups such as boy scouts, etc. This enables them to get the peer to peer interaction that they need . Lessons of winning, teamwork, losing with character, hard work , and competition are learned not taught and read about. Also, these are ways to expose the child to discipline from other adults who have authority over the child.

I have no problem with home schooling although I feel that children that receive an education from a local high school (public or private) have the potential for getting a better education. There are of course exceptions for personal beliefs/value contradictions as well as religious values. I consider special needs kids to be a class of their own and not in this discussion.

Some of the best teachers I have ever been exposed to were from my high school era. That includes fancy boy private college and competitive professional school professors.

I am glad we have a choice though... and I am especially glad that you guys/gals who feel the need for your child have sacrificed what it takes to make it happen. Whether I agree with home schooling for mine or not, I completely respect your decision to do it for your kids.

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 19:42
Originally posted by The Reaper
Feeding kids a steady diet of liberal pablum and PC thinking is hardly likely to create critical thinkers.
It worked for me.

brownapple
03-01-2004, 19:52
Originally posted by Jimbo
It worked for me.

What does that say about you? :D

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 20:36
Originally posted by Jimbo
It worked for me.

You think pretty highly of yourself, do you?

TR

Roguish Lawyer
03-01-2004, 20:45
I don't see how anyone can generalize about home schooling in the way some are doing here. I would think that the quality of a home school depends -- as it does for a traditional school -- on the quality and commitment of the teachers, the availability of adequate resources (note that I don't think you need much to get to "adequate," so don't go there please), the commitment of the parents and the curriculum. It probably varies quite a bit from home school to home school.

If you're going to generalize, I think the issue really is whether kids lose out on social lessons when they're in a home school. Some home schools network with each other to address this problem, but even then you're going to have an issue. I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the central difference between a home school and a traditional one. Beyond that, you'll see variance on both sides in every direction.

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 21:07
Not at all. I recognize my deficiencies in many areas, such as: knot tying, procrastination, calculus, weather prediction, connecting on an emotional level, overuse of the passive voice and commas, weak Arabic as well as Urdu and Uzbek, keeping my workshop clean, finding all the tax deductions for which I qualify, using too much index finger on the trigger, etc....

However, I have depended on my ability to think critically to put a roof over my head for the last several years and in my experience, the diversity of thought in the public school system did a better job of preparing students in that area.

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 21:21
Originally posted by Jimbo
....in my experience, the diversity of thought in the public school system did a better job of preparing students in that area.

Pretty broad generalization for a critical thinker.

Also a bit inflamatory towards the people on this board who do have kids and have chosen to take the time to educate their children themselves.

I do not believe that they would make that investment if they did not think that it was producing a better education than the public school system in their area offered.

Most home schoolers I know enroll their kids in classes at the local schools beyond their expertise, let them participate in athletics, and join in extra-curricular events for socialization.

I am the product of a public school, and my education suffered greatly for it.

My children are in a public school, but it is an exceptional one, and we make small sacrifices to keep them there.

There is little that a parent can accomplish more significant than raising a healthy, well-adjusted, contributing member of our society. A good education is an important part of that, and I again applaud the parents who have chosen to spend the time to make that happen when their local educational options fail to meet their high standards.

TR

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 21:34
How is that a generalization? I have repeatedly said 'in my experience' to explicitly indicate that I am not referring to all home-schooled children. I certainly do not mean to be inflammatory by pointing out the fact that there are more points of view in a public school, but it is kind of hard to deny the math.

One of my best friends home-schools his children. His wife left her promising career as a Marine officer to take on the responsibility. He and I have had this conversation a number of times. It is just another challenge to the home schooling parent.

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 21:44
Originally posted by Jimbo
Most home schooled kids I have known (admittedly only a few) have excelled at rote learning and that was about it.


Generalization (admittedly a somewhat limited one)? Could I make that statement about a minority and the proclivities I have observed without offending someone?

A negative statement nonetheless, and implying limited learning.

A home schooling parent wants to teach their kids about Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, reasoning and logic, or philosophy can give them more in a day than the curriculum in public school will provide in 12 years.

TR

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 21:46
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I don't see how anyone can generalize about home schooling in the way some are doing here. I would think that the quality of a home school depends -- as it does for a traditional school -- on the quality and commitment of the teachers, the availability of adequate resources (note that I don't think you need much to get to "adequate," so don't go there please), the commitment of the parents and the curriculum. It probably varies quite a bit from home school to home school.

If you're going to generalize, I think the issue really is whether kids lose out on social lessons when they're in a home school. Some home schools network with each other to address this problem, but even then you're going to have an issue. I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the central difference between a home school and a traditional one. Beyond that, you'll see variance on both sides in every direction.

Isn't that what I said already? You trying to fight with me b/c you have a toothache? I didn't really put a Sacamuelas curse on you, you know that right? We actually only do that to patients that don't pay their bills. LOL ;)

I agree with you RL (or maybe you agree with me). Do my comments not read as having a similar understanding to what you wrote? If not, I am more tired than I thought.

If that was at Jimbo.. then by all means "pile on". It would be nice to see smeer the queer when I am not the one that is on the bad end of the 12 verses one team. You sympathetic Kurd worshipper! LOL

D9
03-01-2004, 21:48
As long as we're on the subject of antiquity (somewhat.... TR did mention Plato and Aristotle in his last post), I heard a joke the other day while attending a lecture on homeland defense.

The person giving the lecture is a visiting professor at Rice, and told the story of a student and a professor in a Classical Studies course.

The professor looks at the student, and admonishes him, "Son, are you aware that by the time Alexander the Great was your age - twenty-two - he ruled half the world and had the other half in his sights?"

"Yes," answered the student, "are you aware that his professor was Aristotle?"

LOL, touche.

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 21:57
Since Jimbo tried to save me in the KURD thread, I have to make a little note.

TR, Sir. I see it as a "best of both worlds" opportunity to educate your children if you have parents as involved and dedicated to their child's growth as these home school parents are. It is an option to send your kids to high school and then when they get home educate them on the topics you find important. That way, they get an edge on all the other kids. You also have a chance with this time to critically evaluate and discuss with your child any PC or liberal slanted comments that a teacher exposes them too.

In the end, you would have the best of both worlds.

Again, I really do admire the people who make efforts to raise their children the way the see it best. That is far more admirable than someone who just bitches about the schools, but does nothing to change or alter their childs development. Well, that and BILL is the first person to teach me to sharpen a knife successfully so he must be one HELL of a teacher. LOL:D

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 21:57
Jimbo, you're feeling a little froggy tonight, so let me just go ahead and kick your ass.

Until you have a child, you know shit about children. I used to say "When I have mine, I'll do this, or be like that..." Well I'm here to tell you, you can have all the friends, relatives, whatever with kids, but until its yours, you don't know shit.

I don't know how old your are, but you're over 20, things have changed since you were in school. They've definitely changed since I was.

ALL children are home schooled. You may not remember it, but I'll bet my bottom dollar everything important you learned at home. I could read by the time I was four. I went to school to hang out and get the text books. I might of learned a little.

Nobody cares about a child like the child's parents. Not aunts or uncles, grandparents (close 2nd) and surely not even the best teachers in the world.

The people on this board are for the most part what I would consider to be model citizens. Not just role models for their children, but for the general public. I would let Reaper, Mr. Harsey, Cap, AM or the Team Sergeant teach my kid anytime. I thinks its admirable that they make the effort to ensure their kids grow up as contributing members of society. They have no conflicts of interests whatsoever. Unlike teachers.

I don't see where critical thinking is impaired at all. Who asks the questions is irrelevant. What the question is and how its asked is important. In your particular case, it may have been an issue, but to say it affects all or even most is an extreme over generalization.

The only, the absolute only potential issue I can see with homeschooling in general is the socialization factor. But it has been identified and addressed. As long as the parent is aware of it and acts, it ceases to be a problem.

I have two aunts and had a grandmother that were career teachers. Card carrying members of the NEA or whatever that communist cover organization is. I will not leave them alone in the room with my son for five minutes. Much less let them "teach" him anything.

I am the product of a public school education in a poor county in East Texas. I learned to fight, cheat steal and not get beat up after about the 5th grade. Everything else I learned from my mentors or own my own. There is absolutely nothing wrong with home school and there are no gneralizations, other than the parent cares enough to do it. Other than that it is up to teacher and student. Only in this case there's not 30 more competing for the same attention. And attention is what a child needs more than anything else. Attention and love they can't and shouldn't get from strangers. I only wish I could home school my son. Problem is, he's already smarter than I am.

There are people on this board that are homeschooling their children and no doubt doing a fine job of it. Since you are neither parent nor teacher, wind your neck in.

D9
03-01-2004, 22:03
I've got a friend who is running a private school based on a home-school curriculum (from The Well Trained Mind). Their school, at www.aceschool.org, is doing phenomenally on the classical curriculum. The students have blown everyone away, and they are expanding under the pressure of increasing demand from fantastic word-of-mouth recommendations.

On a practical note, for anyone interested in home-schooling I recommend the above book and:

Left Back: A Century of Battles Over School Reform

Talk about a book that will help you understand what you're getting into IF YOU DO NOT home-school. At any rate, both excellent reads for those on both sides of the debate.

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 22:04
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Since Jimbo tried to save me in the KURD thread, I have to make a little note.

TR, Sir. I see it as a "best of both worlds" opportunity to educate your children if you have parents as involved and dedicated to their child's growth as these home school parents are. It is an option to send your kids to high school and then when they get home educate them on the topics you find important. That way, they get an edge on all the other kids. You also have a chance with this time to critically evaluate and discuss with your child any PC or liberal slanted comments that a teacher exposes them too.

In the end, you would have the best of both worlds.

Again, I really do admire the people who make efforts to raise their children the way the see it best. That is far more admirable than someone who just bitches about the schools, but does nothing to change or alter their childs development. Well, that and BILL is the first person to teach me to sharpen a knife successfully so he must be one HELL of a teacher. LOL:D

Well said, Kurd-oppressing reactionary imperialist running dog capitalist lackey. I'm starting to like you again.

Jimbo reminds me of that one kid that always wanted to poke the wasp's nest with the stick.

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 22:11
Something else I don't like about schools, especially elementary level. Too much anonymous pressure is put on kids to achieve such and such by a certain time. Kids develop at extremely different rates. To say that a child HAS to be able to read or add by a certain age is wrong to me. These should be guidelines, not have the stigma of failure attached. And I think in home school, you would get a more tailored to the child approach. The kid had a little trouble with potty training, but I wouldn't pressure him. Everybody said "Oh he's 2, you have to get him out of those diapers." I just ignored them. Well, he has a cousin a couple years older and everyday he listened to his cousin talk about school. So one day he tells me he wants to go to school.

"Well, you can't go wearing diapers, there's nobody to change them. You learn to go to the bathroom by yourself and I'll sign you up."

Potty trained in one day, his mother taught him, because he wanted to do it, not because somebody made him.

What happens in a school when you don't understand something? They make a cursory attempt to clarify, then move on. If you home school, you can spend all the time necessary on the subject until it is truly learned.

I would do it in a heartbeat if I could.

Maas
03-01-2004, 22:25
I too would homeschool if it was possible.

Since I can't, I spend alot of time talking with the teachers. In a classroom of 18, the teacher said only two other parents work with her. I'm dumbfounded by this remark. You can't expect a public school to raise your children, no more than you can expect a Sunday School teacher. You have to set the standards and lead from the front.

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 22:30
Originally posted by Maas
I too would homeschool if it was possible.

Since I can't, I spend alot of time talking with the teachers. In a classroom of 18, the teacher said only two other parents work with her. I'm dumbfounded by this remark. You can't expect a public school to raise your children, no more than you can expect a Sunday School teacher. You have to set the standards and lead from the front.

I couldn't agree more. When I'm home, I pick The Kid up from school myself. I go a little early and spy through the door glass, then sit out next to the sidewalk on a planter box where she has to pass right by me. And we talk. It may be only a minute, but its every day. It takes an hour out of my day, but the peace of mind is tremendous. Funny the things you can learn in a 60 second conversation.

Bill Harsey
03-01-2004, 22:34
Interesting topic, this home schooling. I was dead set against it at the begining but have done a 180 degree change. The socialization argument seems to be promoted heaviest by the teachers union members because it's the only ding they think they can make stick against "home schoolin' " My children swim at the top of a very competitive swim team, take classes away from home in physics and latin and have the oppurtinity to watch me and see if I'm worth a crap or not in this society. I, like Jimbo can only speak from my personal experience. Jimbo Sir, please understand I value the hard questions and wiil not shrink from them. What I absolutely will not allow is my children to be trained by failed liberal democratic members in our local teachers union who never knew how to succeed in independently owned business which to this day employs more people than all the corporations in the United States combined. This is the underlying and unseen fabric upon which this nation was both built and still depends. At no point in public education is this addressed or respected. I have had some success at combining multiple disciplines, involving a little critical thinking, into my work. Failure in this means no food or shelter because I work with no backup. It is said that it is best to lead by example and this hopefully is an important component of the home schooling in this house which is not available in our children in the local public schools. Interesting topic. Bill

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 22:36
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Interesting topic, this home schooling. I was dead set against it at the begining but have done a 180 degree change. The socialization argument seems to be promoted heaviest by the teachers union members because it's the only ding they think they can make stick against "home schoolin' " My children swim at the top of a very competitive swim team, take classes away from home in physics and latin and have the oppurtinity to watch me and see if I'm worth a crap or not in this society. I, like Jimbo can only speak from my personal experience. Jimbo Sir, please understand I value the hard questions and wiil not shrink from them. What I absolutely will not allow is my children to be trained by failed liberal democratic members in our local teachers union who never knew how to succeed in independently owned business which to this day employs more people than all the corporations in the United States combined. This is the underlying and unseen fabric upon which this nation was both built and still depends. At no point in public education is this addressed or respected. I have had some success at combining multiple disciplines, involving a little critical thinking, into my work. Failure in this means no food or shelter because I work with no backup. It is said that it is best to lead by example and this hopefully is an important component of the home schooling in this house which is not available in our children in the local public schools. Interesting topic. Bill

Class. Class! CLASS! Questions?

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 22:38
What I absolutely will not allow is my children to be trained by failed liberal democratic members in our local teachers union who never knew how to succeed in independently owned business which to this day employs more people than all the corporations in the United States combined. This is the underlying and unseen fabric upon which this nation was both built and still depends. At no point in public education is this addressed or respected.
This is my favorite part. "What I absolutely will not allow..." Sounds like Woodrow Call in Lonesome Dove.

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 22:38
Well said Sir.

Alright, hiijack time. Who has a story they can post in the new forum on AProfSoldier. Ambush master has two in there.. who's next?

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 22:44
Did you say froggy or groggy?

The more perspectives a student is exposed to the more able they must be to critically examine them and make an assessment. There are more perspectives available to a student in a public school than in their home. In the handful of home-schooled people I have known and worked with, their relatively narrow range of experinces has made a noticeable impact. That is all I am saying, folks. It is an honest observation. Sorry if that makes some people feel uncomfortable.

NDD, you are right, kids do progress at different rates, which lays open the possibility that a child will learn not only from their teachers and their parents but also from other students (both inside and outside the classroom).

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 22:47
OH HELL... :eek:

((( WARNING... THIS THREAD HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN UPGRADED TO .....))))))

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 22:49
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
What I absolutely will not allow is my children to be trained by failed liberal democratic members in our local teachers union who never knew how to succeed in independently owned business which to this day employs more people than all the corporations in the United States combined.
It might be the jet lag, or the public schooling, but I'm a little lost on this point.

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 22:52
Children are in school to learn basic tasks. Readin', Ritin' and 'Rithmetic. If you had kids you would know the last thing you want them learning is what the other kids want to teach them.

Its just like the wannabes talking to each other about the Q course. Its always bad poop. Now, after a dude graduates from the Q course (has the basic skills), he can begin to apply reasoning and critical thought. The problem today is the kids don't get a good foundation in the basics. Its like you being on an A Team and trying to give your 02 cents about the mission when all you did to get there is sit in a classroom with 30 other guys and listen to a leg tell about what he thinks SF is. Doesn't work does it?

Now you've gone from critical thought to the socialization issue.

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 22:55
Originally posted by Jimbo
It might be the jet lag, or the public schooling, but I'm a little lost on this point.

How is your situational awareness right now?

TR

Jimbo
03-01-2004, 22:59
OK, so you want me to drop the subject? Done.

The Reaper
03-01-2004, 22:59
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
This is my favorite part. "What I absolutely will not allow..." Sounds like Woodrow Call in Lonesome Dove.

Funny you mention that.

Is this Woodrow Call, or John Wayne?

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I don't like rude behavior towards women, I won't tolerate it. Any woman, at anytime. Not even insinuations.

I won't repeat myself.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 23:01
A little of both.

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 23:04
Ok sacamuelas,
It appears dawn has broken over Marblehead. If Mr. Harsey is in agreement, I vote for a hijacking. No girl pics though.

Oh, and Maas, its his thread. LOL

Maas
03-01-2004, 23:11
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Ok sacamuelas,
It appears dawn has broken over Marblehead. If Mr. Harsey is in agreement, I vote for a hijacking. No girl pics though.

Oh, and Maas, its his thread. LOL

I've got no problems with that. Except I can't find the new forum that Sad Sac referenced. Please provide a grid and two hands to find my arse.
LOL

Bill Harsey
03-01-2004, 23:11
Jimbo, Sir! You are correct I failed in making good connection with independant business/education statement, this is my all encompassing term for being responsible for design of product, producing it and then marketing same while maintaining high quality all while doing it here in the United States. This takes some design background, manufacturing technology and then business ability. What I see being taught in many schools is "how to be good, get in line, don't make waves and go with the flow' thing. Bill

NousDefionsDoc
03-01-2004, 23:14
Originally posted by Maas
I've got no problems with that. Except I can't find the new forum that Sad Sac referenced. Please provide a grid and two hands to find my arse.
LOL

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=71

sad sac - LOL

Good one.

Maas
03-01-2004, 23:25
Got it. Thanks.
:cool:

Sacamuelas
03-01-2004, 23:33
Maas... WTF over? Sad Sac huh? You think that's funny.

let me get out my crystall ball and read you future...
wait just a second... ah yes, here it is.

Maas
03-01-2004, 23:37
Naw man, I jist can't speel dem big words.

Plus, I hate turtle necks and ani't gots no teethus neither.

:p

D9
03-01-2004, 23:41
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that one advantage of public schools was that therein one finds many points of view, and many points of view force a child to critically think more, etc, etc.

I have to disagree on this point. If you take 30 fifth graders and put them in the classroom with a teacher on the subject of "Social Studies" (i.e. - the P.C. version of the subject formerly known as history), where is the diversity? It isn't a symposium, it's a classroom. What diverse point of view is a fifth grader going to be able to submit to a teacher who has studied the subject for more years than the child has been alive?

It certainly didn't work this way during my public school upbringing. The teacher/student relationship at the elementary level and just beyond should not be confused with the more free-ranging atmosphere (for better of for worse) of a modern university.

Further, I don't see a special advantage to the diversity of backgrounds among teachers, given the seriously intolerant attitude to diversity of ideas promulgated by American schools of education (see the Ravitch book).

As far as what is left of the "diversity" argument, it is certainly nothing that can't be made up for in a soccer league.

My 0.02.

brownapple
03-02-2004, 00:15
Originally posted by Jimbo
There are more perspectives available to a student in a public school than in their home.

Heck of an assumption. One that fails to take into account group dynamics or the stifling effect of large groups.

So, before you move on, prove your assumption.

More people does not equate more perspectives. Prove your assumption.

Roguish Lawyer
03-02-2004, 11:51
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Isn't that what I said already? You trying to fight with me b/c you have a toothache? I didn't really put a Sacamuelas curse on you, you know that right? We actually only do that to patients that don't pay their bills. LOL

I agree with you RL (or maybe you agree with me). Do my comments not read as having a similar understanding to what you wrote? If not, I am more tired than I thought.

If that was at Jimbo.. then by all means "pile on". It would be nice to see smeer the queer when I am not the one that is on the bad end of the 12 verses one team. You sympathetic Kurd worshipper! LOL

You are paranoid. Did I say I was talking about you? I don't even remember you posting anything in this thread. ;)

pulque
03-02-2004, 12:02
Originally posted by Greenhat
Heck of an assumption. One that fails to take into account group dynamics or the stifling effect of large groups.

So, before you move on, prove your assumption.

More people does not equate more perspectives. Prove your assumption.

I cant help but wonder about the topic. I have no kids. I went to public school and my cousins were home schooled. Also, my parents were both community college profs. What I want to say is that nobody has "proven" the assumption that home schooling has less indoctrination than public school either. But why should it?

Rather than thinking of indoctrination and critical thinking as opposites, I am starting to think that they are both tools to create the space in which a kid can grow their mind and learn subjects. That mind has the potential (some would say the obligation) to outgrow its origins, whether it is a parent's religious/political views, or a teacher's liberal use of the words "critical thinking".

Doc T
03-03-2004, 09:46
i think NDD said it best earlier..at least I think it was him...all kids are truely home schooled to a point.

I am the product of a public education but every day classroom assignments/ days events/etc. were discussed at home and homework was gone over with one or both of my parents. I think the classroom introduced the topics but my parents (well, mostly my dad) taught as much as any teacher did. Without that input I think the public school system most definitely fails because one teacher can not thoroughly teach 18 or more students...they can simply introduce concepts/ideas/etc..and then parents must step in.

Most people I know who home school have their children involved in public activities to allow socialization skills that may be lost in the strictly home environment...whether its church/the YMCA/ or intramural sports... and they do trade off homeschooling at others homes for certain topics as things get more advanced forming a more "classroom like" environment.

We will not home school...may wind up in private school if the public schools don't meet our expectations...but both the team sergeant and I will be intimately involved in our daughters educational process.... it just won't take place exclusively at home.

doc t.

Psywar1-0
03-03-2004, 09:57
My only exposure to Home schooling was having a young man work for me at the museum who was Ultra Christian white supremisist home schooled. Im sure his parents were just 10%ers. But some of the things he said were quite scary:

Black hair and dark eyes are the mark of the devil: (Pretty ballsy statement as he was surrounded by Indians)

Heven will be all the folks from our church and a few other churches, everyone else is going to hell. Non whites who convert to our version of the truth will work for us in heven.

ect ect ect

By no means do I think this is the normal HS result, but kids like that are out there.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 10:28
Originally posted by Psywar1-0
My only exposure to Home schooling was having a young man work for me at the museum who was Ultra Christian white supremisist home schooled. Im sure his parents were just 10%ers. But some of the things he said were quite scary:

Black hair and dark eyes are the mark of the devil: (Pretty ballsy statement as he was surrounded by Indians)

Heven will be all the folks from our church and a few other churches, everyone else is going to hell. Non whites who convert to our version of the truth will work for us in heven.

ect ect ect

By no means do I think this is the normal HS result, but kids like that are out there.

That's Home Indoctrination. Different thing.

Bill Harsey
03-03-2004, 11:03
Doc T, Well said and I agree. We home school because failure is not an option and we have the tools to handle it. (please NEVER tell Reaper that I've taught at University level...it would soil my outback inbred redneck image) No "agenda" here, just rock soild foundation work. Thanks!

CRad
03-03-2004, 12:37
I'm all for home schooling since I figure nobody knows my child better than I do and I know what he needs and how to get the best from him. The soldier at this house, on the other hand, is dead set against it. His reasons are teachers are trained to teach. You don't doctor the kids so you don't teach the kids. (you do to a certain extent in both cases but I understand what he means) There are bad teachers but there is bad in everything you come up against and you might as well learn how to deal with it and still get what you need out of the program. Dealing with idiots teaches you how to deal with adversity. Being in a classroom full of students makes you compete which you would not do if you were one on one at home. There's a regimentation to school that is sometimes lacking at home. There's a separation between school and home that teaches you about behaving differently in different situations. You learn social skills and adaptive behavior that you might not get at home or if you are only participating in team sports.

Mind you those are his reasons not mine. Personally, I think the Army and its way of doing things has a lot to do with the way he sees things.

This is where we agree - He figures you get out of the public school system what you put into it and that the more intimately involved you are the more you get. We did get a bad to the core teacher last year and nothing I did made any difference. The only thing I could do was work with our son at home, bitch at the other half about home school, and hope for better teacher in the fall. Thank God we got a real gem for second grade.

Bill Harsey
03-03-2004, 13:33
I would imagine in your community that if a teacher has anti military left leaning views that they either are quiet or may have the oppurtunity to seek employment elsewhere. Out here in what is becoming the "Peoples Republic of Oregon" this thinking is both openly encouraged and rewarded via the public schools. Witness time off from school for students to participate in anti-war rallies up in Portland as part of a social studies class. I'm finding that I cannot agree with what or how the public schools both teach and are administered. They want to take responsibility for WHAT your children think, not teaching how to think for themselves. There is a well defined social agenda in our public schools, it's not hidden. This is not what I think schools are for. Home schooling, in this house, is very regimented, seperate school room, time and work schedule. Our state requires us to pay to have our children tested to make sure they are meeting minimum state mandated educational requirements. These scores are compared against the state averages from the public schools. Our children are testing in the 99th percantile. There is no 100, that's as high as they can score. About the socialization, not even an issue. Thanks, Bill

Solid
03-03-2004, 13:52
Mr Harsey,
While I agree that an anti-military education is unhealthy for society and that education should be taught without bias (if possible), I think that allowing students and teachers to participate in rallies of ANY kind might have a positive effect by exposing students to their rights as a citizen of this great country.
To a certain degree, I feel that anti-WAR rallies are not all-in-all a bad thing (I can explain this if necessary), but it would not make sense for the school to support only anti-war rallies and not other kinds- like those in support of our men and women fighting overseas.

I otherwise completely agree with you.
They want to take responsibility for WHAT your children think, not teaching how to think for themselves.
The above, I feel, is especially dangerous. That such indoctrination is a hallmark of totalitarian governments (USSR, to name one) is an indication of the severe ramifications this approach can have.

My .02,

Solid

CRad
03-03-2004, 14:22
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
About the socialization, not even an issue. Thanks, Bill

Not socialization but social and adaptive skills. He sees that as two different things. I'm not sure how he'd feel about an anti-military bias; although, there is some of that at his parents house. We talked about private school rather than public school when it got really bad last year. His folks are educators, two of his siblings are as well. Being in SF he's a natural at teaching.

I agree with you on the home school concept.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 14:42
Originally posted by Solid
I think that allowing students and teachers to participate in rallies of ANY kind might have a positive effect by exposing students to their rights as a citizen of this great country.
... it would not make sense for the school to support only anti-war rallies and not other kinds- like those in support of our men and women fighting overseas.
My .02,
Solid


I think I would like to "make change" with that $.02 of yours Solid. ;)

Please expound on your thoughts a little Sir. I am interested to hear your perspective.
Thanks

Solid
03-03-2004, 15:09
Sacamuelas,
First, I would like to deferentiate between ATTENDING a rally, and PARTICIPATING in a rally. I made a mistake in my previous post- I think that it is important for students to experience rallies first-hand through attendance, but NOT be forced into participating in the rally proper. While attending a rally- being physically present among the body of protesters- could be seen as implicit support of the rally, I believe that participating takes more- such as being a sign holder, taking part in defamatory cheers, etcetera. While schools should attempt to expose students to rallys by allowing them to attend (or going on class trips), it would be wrong to make them participate in the rally. This is similar to the differentiation Mr. Harsey made- schools should not teach them WHAT to think (participation in rally) but instead HOW to think (attendance, observation, examination).

So, why expose students to rallys? Rallies are a potent and direct form of representation in an enlightened democracy. As in the Vietnam War, rallies can effect policy with minimal interference from intermediary bureaucracy, which often has the effect of perverting or co-opting the message. The unalienable right of Free Speech is upheld through protest and rally, and these two devices could be seen as mechanisms to prevent tyranny or governmental behaviour which is felt to be unrepresentative of popular opinion. Therefore, excluding individual messages, rallies are a good thing.

However, in terms of implementing this idea, the waters muddy somewhat. Certain rallies- Anti-WTO, for example- are violent and often extremely poor examples of what rallies should be. I will not advocate placing students in harm's way, or, worse, exposing them to forms of protest which are illegal or misguided (not in their intent or message, but in their techniques). As such, I feel that students should be given, quite literally, an 'introduction' to protest, a field trip of some kind. Teachers should make an effort to present both sides of the coin when dealing with controversial matters, such as the military, thereby minimalising bias. If the matter is handled appropriately, the valuable skill of protest will become part of education.

Of course, some people think students shouldn't have a voice at all...
That's my $.02, make change if you wish :D

Solid

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 15:16
And away we go!

Solid
03-03-2004, 15:26
... If only I knew how to establish a perimeter, dial in the arty and get some air cover...

I don't think I'll be surviving this argument!

Solid

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 15:29
Originally posted by Solid
... If only I knew how to establish a perimeter, dial in the arty and get some air cover...

I don't think I'll be surviving this argument!

Solid

Shouldn't have kicked the trip wire.

Solid
03-03-2004, 15:32
A very good point... I'm not seeing any incoming fire right now, though.. Just praying for that air support, or I'll have to exfiltrate on my lonesome if the fire gets to heavy.

D9
03-03-2004, 15:47
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
About the socialization, not even an issue.

Agreed on all points. I'd like to bring up one other thing about "socialization," which is a favorite topic of those who bash home-schoolers. What do people even mean by it? I can never get a straight answer out of anyone.

Most people speak as if by that they mean that not sending a child to public school dooms the child to the life of a withdrawn, socially dysfunctional, misfit. This is baseless hyperbole.

Asked to define what they mean by socialization, most refer vaguely to qualities like the ability to compromise or function well as part of a group. But these are qualities that weren't lacking in Americans before the public school era, when many children were raised at home. Furthermore, homeschooling cannot be equated with complete isolation from peers (as its detractors usually insinuate). Most home-schooled children have plenty of friends and siblings, and I am not aware of any study that convincingly argues that public school kids have a decisive social advantage.

I think the "socialization" argument associated with public schools owes to John Dewey, the famous pragmatist and education philosopher, who saw a public school system as a way for America to engineer a society that could compete with what he was sure was going to be a great utopian engineering project in the USSR. Dewey held explicitly that choice had to be taken away from children about their futures, and that they had to be directed in a course that was best for society. If society needs carpenters, then schools train carpenters. If society needs electricians, then schools must be able to respond to this. It was the beginning on the de-emphasis of the individual in education, and the emphasis on the social value (i.e. the value that would redound to "society" from the child's education). At the time, it was argued that kids needed to learn "social" skills so they would be compliant with this social engineering scheme. The term "socialization," as it was born in that era in education, meant the indoctrination of children to dogmatically take the good of society as expressed by school administrators over their own dreams in their education. These are the "social" values that were originally supposed to emerge in public schools.

But that was during America's Red Decades, and the folly in the subjugation of the individual to the collective has been made clear in the death camps of the Nazis and Soviets. So, today, "socialization" is a term that in my opinion has no real meaning. It has disassociated itself from its Marxist roots, but is left with nothing to refer to. IMO, it is an abstraction without a connection to reality. Those who refer to it, do so not in reference to an actual deficiency in social skills that can be observed in non-public school children (be they home or private schooled), but mean it to invoke images of socially incompetent misfits. The fact is, I don't think there is any reason to give credence to such a connection. Of the home and private school kids I know, they are without exception well adjusted.

As for the kids with the neo-Nazi parents, I doubt public schools could do much for kids like that anyway.

Not trying to offend, just my 0.02.

BTW, my source on the Dewey info is Left Back, by Diane Ravitch. She is a Columbia Teacher's College professor, and author.

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 15:48
Originally posted by Solid
A very good point... I'm not seeing any incoming fire right now, though.. Just praying for that air support, or I'll have to exfiltrate on my lonesome if the fire gets to heavy.

Why do you think you'll see it coming before it's too late?

Solid
03-03-2004, 15:49
Another good point... I'm being beaten by analogy :)
If I didn't spot the tripwire, I probably won't spot the attack itself until it's too late..

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 15:52
Originally posted by D9
Agreed on all points. I'd like to bring up one other thing about "socialization," which is a favorite topic of those who bash home-schoolers. What do people even mean by it? I can never get a straight answer out of anyone.

Most people speak as if by that they mean that not sending a child to public school dooms the child to the life of a withdrawn, socially dysfunctional, misfit. This is baseless hyperbole.

Asked to define what they mean by socialization, most refer vaguely to qualities like the ability to compromise or function well as part of a group. But these are qualities that weren't lacking in Americans before the public school era, when many children were raised at home. Furthermore, homeschooling cannot be equated with complete isolation from peers (as its detractors usually insinuate). Most home-schooled children have plenty of friends and siblings, and I am not aware of any study that convincingly argues that public school kids have a decisive social advantage.

I think the "socialization" argument associated with public schools owes to John Dewey, the famous pragmatist and education philosopher, who saw a public school system as a way for America to engineer a society that could compete with what he was sure was going to be a great utopian engineering project in the USSR. Dewey held explicitly that choice had to be taken away from children about their futures, and that they had to be directed in a course that was best for society. If society needs carpenters, then schools train carpenters. If society needs electricians, then schools must be able to respond to this. It was the beginning on the de-emphasis of the individual in education, and the emphasis on the social value (i.e. the value that would redound to "society" from the child's education). At the time, it was argued that kids needed to learn "social" skills so they would be compliant with this social engineering scheme. The term "socialization," as it was born in that era in education, meant the indoctrination of children to dogmatically take the good of society as expressed by school administrators over their own dreams in their education. These are the "social" values that were originally supposed to emerge in public schools.

But that was during America's Red Decades, and the folly in the subjugation of the individual to the collective has been made clear in the death camps of the Nazis and Soviets. So, today, "socialization" is a term that in my opinion has no real meaning. It has disassociated itself from its Marxist roots, but is left with nothing to refer to. IMO, it is an abstraction without a connection to reality. Those who refer to it, do so not in reference to an actual deficiency in social skills that can be observed in non-public school children (be they home or private schooled), but mean it to invoke images of socially incompetent misfits. The fact is, I don't think there is any reason to give credence to such a connection. Of the home and private school kids I know, they are without exception well adjusted.

As for the kids with the neo-Nazi parents, I doubt public schools could do much for kids like that anyway.

Not trying to offend, just my 0.02.

BTW, my source on the Dewey info is Left Back, by Diane Ravitch. She is a Columbia Teacher's College professor, and author.

Marxist? :rolleyes:

I did not express an opinion one way or the other. The point is simply that going to school with other children exposes the kid to other children and forces the child to learn how to interact with others. Not that you can't accomplish that if you are home schooling, but it is something you need to compensate for.

D9
03-03-2004, 16:00
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Marxist? :rolleyes:

Not referring to you. In fact, I didn't even see where you posted what you refer to above. I saw Mr. Harsey's comments and was prompted by those. No offense intended.

Dewey thought Marx style social engineering was good, and advocated for "socializing" children on this model. Just pointing out the history of the term.

Seriously, I don't think kids suffer from any kind of social retardation from home-schooling. Without obviously lacking social skills in home-school children, I find it hard to understand what people are referring to by "socialization."

I agree that kids need to learn how to interact with others. I do not think public schools have a monopoly on this (if they're any better at all).

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 16:06
I think students would learn valuable lessons at this rally:

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 16:08
One more pic:

Doc T
03-03-2004, 16:09
Originally posted by D9

Seriously, I don't think kids suffer from any kind of social retardation from home-schooling. Without obviously lacking social skills in home-school children, I find it hard to understand what people are referring to by "socialization."



As I said earlier most people I know who home school make it a point to get their kids involved in activities outside the house.....that is, I believe, what people are saying...that you have to make a point not to isolate the child who is home schooled when those that attend either public/private schools see and interact with other children on a daily basis.



doc t.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 16:13
by Attending private school in Britain boy

A very good point... I'm not seeing any incoming fire right now, though.. Just praying for that air support, or I'll have to exfiltrate on my lonesome if the fire gets to heavy

Sorry for the delay Sir...
Some of us are out of high school and unfortunately have jobs to interfere with this important debate. I will reply asap young grasshopper. During the pause, would you mind explaining a little more for me. I want to make sure I understand your positions. That was an impressive post and I want to make sure I get it all right.. the full .02 as we say.

"I think that it is important for students to experience rallies first-hand through attendance, but NOT be forced into participating in the rally proper."

You are referring to high school kids during school hours on a school sponsored field trips right?

"While attending a rally- being physically present among the body of protesters- could be seen as implicit support of the rally, I believe that participating takes more.."

How is the success of a rally judged?

"While schools should attempt to expose students to rallys by allowing them to attend (or going on class trips), it would be wrong to make them participate in the rally."

What happens to the students who decide not to go?

"intermediary bureaucracy, which often has the effect of perverting or co-opting the message"

Do you feel most anti-war rallies are organized and attended by nonbiased citizens looking for enlightenment on the issue?

"The unalienable right of Free Speech is upheld through protest and rally, and these two devices could be seen as mechanisms to prevent tyranny or governmental behaviour which is felt to be unrepresentative of popular opinion. Therefore, excluding individual messages, rallies are a good thing."

How do you feel the 1st amendment plays into this specific issue?

"As such, I feel that students should be given, quite literally, an 'introduction' to protest, a field trip of some kind."

Please give me your idea of a good "intro" rally that you would approve of and why.

and my favorite....
"Of course, some people think students shouldn't have a voice at all..."
What specifically do you think high school students should have a voice in? I support you, I am just wondering what you might be talking about…is attending rallies the voice you refer to?

I know I asked a lot of you, please respond as you have time. I will get back to this thread. Thanks Solid.

D9
03-03-2004, 16:20
Originally posted by Doc T
As I said earlier most people I know who home school make it a point to get their kids involved in activities outside the house.....that is, I believe, what people are saying...that you have to make a point not to isolate the child who is home schooled when those that attend either public/private schools see and interact with other children on a daily basis.


Agreed, ma'am. Clarification noted.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 16:35
Wire broke, smoke coming from fuse igniter.

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 16:40
Yup, "Let us have your kids, we know what's best for them."

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm18723_20040303.htm

Michigan teacher must cover cost of substitute while on military duty
ASSOCIATED PRESS

GRAND RAPIDS -- A Michigan school district told a teacher activated for military duty that he must cover the cost of a substitute during part of his absence and give the district some of his military pay.

At a school board meeting this week, angry teachers, students and district residents criticized the decision by administrators at Kenowa Hills Public Schools.

"Is this how you treat people that defend your country?" Tom Lovett, a teacher's spouse and district resident, asked board members.

Barry Bernhardt, a middle school science teacher and a National Guard reservist for at least a decade, started serving two weeks of active duty in Italy on Monday, the day of the school board meeting.

During the 10 days Bernhardt will be gone from the classroom, he will use two personal days and two compensation days during his time off.

For the remaining six days, Bernhardt must pay the district $74 per day for the substitute teacher filling in for him and turn over the $78 in salary that he will receive each day from the National Guard, The Grand Rapids Press reported.

"The district missed a golden opportunity to reflect on the patriotic duty of all Americans to, in our own way, celebrate the accomplishments of the service not only of Barry, but of all the men and women who stand for our country," said Ron La Fave, a Kenowa Hills teacher.

Superintendent Jim Gillette said the district was following the law when it crafted its agreement with Bernhardt. A similar agreement was drawn up on one other occasion, years earlier, when Bernhardt was assigned to Bosnia during a tour of duty.

In most previous years, Bernhardt has fulfilled his military assignments while on vacation, Gillette said.

"It's inaccurate to say we didn't do anything for him. We did provide significant assistance," the superintendent said, adding that the district continues to provide Bernhardt with all his other benefits during his absence.

In the end, the teacher will receive $573 more than he would have after the two-week military leave, Gillette said. Bernhardt will give the district only six days' worth of his military pay, and he also will receive a military housing allowance.

When compared to employees of private companies, the district is doing what it should to protect Bernhardt's financial stability, Gillette said.

"It's a fact that he's not losing money, that he's making money. Whatever way you look at it, he's still making money," he said.

In neighboring Grand Rapids Public Schools, teachers called to duty receive two weeks of unpaid leave but are not required to pay for a substitute teacher.

As a result of Bernhardt's situation, Kenowa Hills school board members now are likely to create a specific policy covering employee military leave.

"In the future, he's not going to get out that well," Gillette said.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 16:55
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Wire broke, smoke coming from fuse igniter.

Haha... Team Sergeant hasn't given me firing priviledges. He only lets me keep one bullet in my gun like Barney Fife. LOL I don't feel comfortable being critical or sharpshooting...not my style. LOL

I may agree with solid. He might have convinced me completely. That part where he completely perverted Mr. Harsey's words really touched me.

I may have experienced enlightenment for the first time. If only I had attended anti-war and pro-same sex marriage rallies back when I was going through high school. Dammit. I should have recieved credit for that instead of learning about our constitution and founding father's in that perverted or co-opted messages being taught by that beurocratic history teacher. ;)

After all, Jane Fonda didn't really do anything wrong in Nam'... She was just ATTENDING those prisoner of war camps while they were beaten and tortured....she wasn't PARTICIPATING. It is a BIG difference - just ask SOLID. He can explain it.

Solid
03-03-2004, 16:59
by Attending private school in Britain boy
I think it is necessary for me to fully explain my background, and why I still feel that my argument and experience is somewhat relevant to the discussion. I am, without a doubt, an American citizen. For many years I attended a private American Highschool in London. However, I have for the past two years been studying at a British remedial school. I feel that at my current school I am exposed to a wide range of students from different socioeconomic, ethnic, and political backgrounds. Furthermore, I am aware of the build and stance of a 'typical' US highschool, because my old school was constructed around that model. I therefore feel that while I would prefer to have been educated at a US public school in order to more confidently comment on this issue, my background still provides me with a comparable understanding of education. If this is demonstrably not the case, I will retract my argument and unass the AO.


You are referring to high school kids during school hours on a school sponsored field trips right?
Very sparingly, yes. I would not support 'regular class trips', just enough to establish a working concept of a rally, similar to a class trip to view a painting at a gallery.

How is the success of a rally judged?
The effect it has on the desired target, usually measured imperically- legislation, polls etc.

What happens to the students who decide not to go?
As with any field trip, students will be allowed not to attend if their parents write them a note.

Do you feel most anti-war rallies are organized and attended by nonbiased citizens looking for enlightenment on the issue?
I'm not sure how this related to the quote, but no, most certainly not. Anti-war rallies are organized and attended by those that are anti-war or anything surrounding the issue (military, for example). To clarify, the "intermediary bureaucracy" I was referring to was the system of representation that allows people to vote, etc.

How do you feel the 1st amendment plays into this specific issue?
The right of Freedom of Expression is (partially) what allows rallies to take place, and as such is integral to the issue.

Please give me your idea of a good "intro" rally that you would approve of and why.
Rallies against legislation which is not highly controversial tend to be peaceful, and could make good 'intro' rallies. Bad 'intro' rallies would be those like anti-WTO and anti-OIF rallies, or Affirmative Action rallies. Generally, controversial issue-based rallies should be stayed away from as they often escalate into violence.

What specifically do you think high school students should have a voice in? I support you, I am just wondering what you might be talking about…is attending rallies the voice you refer to?
Highschool students, including myself, are altogether too opinionated and ignorant of reality. As such, the voice of these students is often misguided, petulant, and unsubstantiated. Nevertheless, I believe that they should have the right to express their opinions, as long as the majority of opinions are expressed politely through the "proper channels". Part of the 'protesting' syllabus would, in my eyes, address the primary stages of protest, which involve operating through the "proper channels". I do not believe that students should be taught to protest without being taught the stages of protest first. Therefore, in the right circumstances (hopefully so specific that they never occur), students may express their voice through rally. In most other cases, however, the student voice will be limited to polite and dignified conduct through the appropriate bureaucractic channels.

As for Hanoi Jane, she was quoted by the press ("no, really, they're being treated humanely down here"etc) and therefore participated and didn't just attend. You should've attended pro-war rallies with your history teacher, none of that liberal BS...

I hope that answered your questions. As NDD said, I tripped the wire while wandering blindly into this potential quagmire. I'm here now, so I figure that I'll set up a perimeter and catch some Z's while OPFOR prepares its attack.

Good night,

Solid

PS: I notice I'm no longer a 'sir'... it was good to be respected while it lasted, lol.
PPS: I don't know what's more suspensful, the comments NDD keeps making, or the fact that he's bothering to comment after each of my posts!

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 17:03
Point man disappears, "Was that a selector switch I just heard click?"

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 17:19
I know this town, played football against them. Tiny, tiny town.

Feb. 20, 2004, 4:55PM

Student arrested for taking Game Boy bomb to school
By S.K. BARDWELL
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

A Livingston Junior High School student is in police custody today, after fellow students called Crime Stoppers to report he had a homemade bomb at school Thursday.

The student, whose name is not being released because of his age, hollowed out a Game Boy and filled it with gunpowder, Livingston police said.

But when the student bragged about his invention, another student called Crime Stoppers to report the device, police said.

The Polk County school was evacuated briefly Thursday afternoon while officials searched for the student and the bomb. He was arrested on a school bus headed to a track meet, and the bomb was rendered harmless.

Police said the boy could be charged with carrying a prohibited weapon into a school zone, a second degree felony.

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 17:31
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Police said the boy could be charged with carrying a prohibited weapon into a school zone, a second degree felony.

That's all?

I don't know if this thing he made was dangerous or not, but if it really was a bomb, I'd think the punishment should be pretty severe.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 17:41
"Highschool students, including myself, are altogether too opinionated and ignorant of reality. As such, the voice of these students is often misguided, petulant, and unsubstantiated.

Exactly. I will explain the truth in your own words to you in a little bit. Hopefully, someone else can help you while I am gone.

Again, I only get one bullet and it would be a waste on Solid after he already shot himself in the groin with the above quote.

NDD- quit provoking me. You are going to get the TS mad at me... I will not fire until I see the white's of his eyes. Of course, if someone else wants to provide support then TS couldn't say it was me being the troublemaker.:D

Solid
03-03-2004, 17:48
The groin shot was intentional, I had to get out of there somehow and I made sure to only pop one of them... :D

At least I'm honest about some of my short comings... Now, if I could only learn how to shut up...

Solid

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 18:08
Damn you Solid... You took all the sport out of it. :D

Isn't cowardice punishible by death in the AprofSoldier code of conduct NDD? We need a formal inquiry into Solid's ND also. It seems that it was intentional... but its still a negligent discharge.

That makes TWO big NO-NO's on this site in one day, SIR.

Crap, NOW it would be like "pickin on the fat kid" or "hitting a girl"!

The Reaper
03-03-2004, 18:35
Originally posted by Solid
I think that it is important for students to experience rallies first-hand through attendance, but NOT be forced into participating in the rally proper. While attending a rally- being physically present among the body of protesters- could be seen as implicit support of the rally, I believe that participating takes more- such as being a sign holder, taking part in defamatory cheers, etcetera. While schools should attempt to expose students to rallys by allowing them to attend (or going on class trips), it would be wrong to make them participate in the rally. This is similar to the differentiation Mr. Harsey made- schools should not teach them WHAT to think (participation in rally) but instead HOW to think (attendance, observation, examination).

So, why expose students to rallys? Rallies are a potent and direct form of representation in an enlightened democracy. As in the Vietnam War, rallies can effect policy with minimal interference from intermediary bureaucracy, which often has the effect of perverting or co-opting the message. The unalienable right of Free Speech is upheld through protest and rally, and these two devices could be seen as mechanisms to prevent tyranny or governmental behaviour which is felt to be unrepresentative of popular opinion. Therefore, excluding individual messages, rallies are a good thing.

However, in terms of implementing this idea, the waters muddy somewhat. Certain rallies- Anti-WTO, for example- are violent and often extremely poor examples of what rallies should be. I will not advocate placing students in harm's way, or, worse, exposing them to forms of protest which are illegal or misguided (not in their intent or message, but in their techniques). As such, I feel that students should be given, quite literally, an 'introduction' to protest, a field trip of some kind. Teachers should make an effort to present both sides of the coin when dealing with controversial matters, such as the military, thereby minimalising bias. If the matter is handled appropriately, the valuable skill of protest will become part of education.

Of course, some people think students shouldn't have a voice at all...
That's my $.02, make change if you wish :D

Solid

Would student attendance at a Klan rally with a cross burning be beneficial to them?

How about a lynching?

A hate rally against white people or Jews?

You need to think harder before you post.

TR

Solid
03-03-2004, 18:36
How about picking on the fat girl?? :D

It would only be cowardice if someone expected me to defend my position, which doesn't include the OPFOR... right?

What opinions can teenagers voice, in your opinion?

Reaper:
For the sake of brevity I did not fully answer those questions in my original post, but now see that I should have been more clear. Students should NOT be taken to any kind of rallies which are controversial in nature or likely to degrade into mob violence. Although I agree that 'controversial' is a subjective term, there are protests which are nominally non-threatening and non-controversial to the majority of society.

Solid

brownapple
03-03-2004, 18:37
Originally posted by CRad
His reasons are teachers are trained to teach. You don't doctor the kids so you don't teach the kids.

Your husband is a better trained teacher than many of the teachers in public schools.

The Reaper
03-03-2004, 18:42
Originally posted by Solid
How about picking on the fat girl?? :D

What opinions can teenagers voice, in your opinion?

Reaper:
For the sake of brevity I did not answer those questions in my original post, but now see that I should have. Clearly, students should NOT be taken to any kind of rallies which are controversial in nature or likely to degrade into mob violence.

Solid

You don't see anti-war rallies as controversial?

Teenagers, like adults, should restrict themselves to commentary on subjects they are knowledgable in and educated on. Possession of an ignorant opinion is not justification to voice it, unless it is an athletic event or alcohol is involved, and you are prepared to fight (physically) to defend it.

Otherwise, it is just background noise.

TR

brownapple
03-03-2004, 18:42
Originally posted by Solid
Rallies are a potent and direct form of representation in an enlightened democracy.

Why do you think we vote for Representatives and Senators in Congress?

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 18:44
Originally posted by Solid
Reaper:
For the sake of brevity I did not fully answer those questions in my original post, but now see that I should have been more clear. Students should NOT be taken to any kind of rallies which are controversial in nature or likely to degrade into mob violence. Although I agree that 'controversial' is a subjective term, there are protests which are nominally non-threatening and non-controversial to the majority of society.


You want them to go to the rally for keeping the library open until 2130 instead of 2100? I'm sure there are a bunch like that to choose from. And very educational. :rolleyes:

Solid
03-03-2004, 18:47
Reaper, I do see anti-war rallies as controversial, and also prone (in historic cases) to degrade into violence. I tried to use anti-war rallies as an example of the potent and important ability of protest, not as an example of a good field trip.

Greenhat, the system of representation in most cases is adequate to serve public opinion. However, in some cases (as it would be if a tyrant was in power), the governmental bureaucracy through which representation must pass would become 'part of the enemy', therefore leading to methods of representation external to governmental mechanisms, such as rallies.

RL, here in London a congestion charge was levelled on 'the square mile'. There were minor, non-violent, and non-controversial rallies protesting its implementation. These kind of rallies are so non-controversial that they don't make the international news, so I couldn't find similar rallies in the US.

Solid

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 18:50
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
You want them to go to the rally for keeping the library open until 2130 instead of 2100? I'm sure there are a bunch like that to choose from. And very educational. :rolleyes:

I find that to be a very controversial topic. How dare you demand the librarian work another 30 minutes?

Clearly, students should NOT be taken to any kind of rallies which are controversial in nature or likely to degrade into mob violence.

A rally that does not address a controversial subject is called a quilting bee in America.

Roguish Lawyer
03-03-2004, 18:53
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I find that to be a very controversial topic. How dare you demand the librarian work another 30 minutes?

LMAO!

Sincerely,

Capitalist lap dog

NousDefionsDoc
03-03-2004, 18:55
And before all the females jump on me, quilting bees can get pretty heated as well.

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 19:19
Originally posted by Solid
How about picking on the fat girl??


However, in some cases (as it would be if a tyrant was in power), the governmental bureaucracy through which representation must pass would become 'part of the enemy', therefore leading to methods of representation external to governmental mechanisms, such as rallies.
Solid


I hate fat girls.. now you have done it!;)

Solid.. there you go. I try to get you out of this thing by not using my "bullet" and you keep posting until the shooters decide to finish you off. Not very wise for a diversified two high school experienced renaissance man like yourself...

Now I finally understand you. You must think we have a tyrant in power. Please remember to take off your tin hat when you come to this website.

As to your second response here...
This is why I specifically asked you to detail your opinion earlier. I was trying to prevent this type of hypothetical BS from being used as an excuse. My fault, I guess I forgot to make sure you specified that we were talking about the USA as it exists today... not some made up fairy tale land scenario Dorothy.



From the looks of things since I lasted posted, now you will be lucky to get out of this with a groin shot. LOL Good luck

Eagle5US
03-03-2004, 19:36
Yes...I am late...OK, VERY Late...but
This thread applies directly to us...since coming to Hawaii, we are homeschoolers.
Our daughter did exceptionally well in public school, getting stationed in Hawaii presented us a real problem...substandard education, our daughter's safety could not be gauranteed at school, private schools at 3-6K a semester for grades 3-5.
So, we chose to homeschool. After our first year, her standardized testing for 3rd grade showed her scoring between 5-6 grade level for all subjects except geography...where she was in the 4th grade level. We too were worried about her socialization skills suffering...so we enrolled her in extracurricular activities with kids her own age. Art camps, activity camps, karate etc... Additionally, we are members of the Hawaii Homeschool Association which sponsors twice monthly park days for all the kids to get together and play as well as other activities (plays, chorus practice / recitals, field trips etc). Sounds just about perfect huh???
Well, there is another side to homeschooling that we have been exposed to...and we see why it can get such a bad rep.
Our daughter has scheduled classes from 0800-1520 daily, a full school day. Most others HERE have class no more than 1-3 hours per day. MANY here practice "no school-home school"- the child "learns by experiencing life" and "asks questions when they are ready to learn more about something" :confused:
We have converted a room in our home to her classroom, 4x7 foot chalkboard, desk, globe, education based posters etc...people think we are idiots..."You don't have to do all that!!! How could you possibly put in so much time teaching and make her sit through it?!?"
We found it very confusing how many families are advocates for the "responsibility of educating their own children" and then only put 1-3 hours a day into it.
By far this has been the best and most rewarding decision we have probably ever made. And our child has absolutely benefitted from it.
The responsibility is on the parents, what they want to provide their child with for the kids future, and the work and study habits that will carry them to being students in college and ultimately a productive portion of society.

Eagle

Sacamuelas
03-03-2004, 20:05
Great post Sir. Spoken from a postion based on positive experiences with both sides of the dilemna. You and Bill Harsey are becoming my new mentors. (still won't homeschool unless things change big time in my area :p ). Your reasoning is exactly why my wife has quit her law practice to stay home with our infants for the first few years minimum. We want to sacrifice our short term luxury and goals to give them the best chance to reach their individual potential. Trust me, it was not a decision that we made for financial reasons! LOL

IMO, your post on parents responsibilty is a great summary for this thread. Glad you found us down here in the {General discussion} forum Doc.

Bill Harsey
03-03-2004, 20:11
Ma'ams and Sirs, I'll have to re-read this entire thread again, a lot of traffic to soak up after tea time here. Please let me explain a single point in this post, Last Year in Oregon as the war in Iraq got under way, several schools in both Portland, Oregon and I think in Eugene also, let their kids attend, IN FULL SUPPORT OF, the anti war rallies. They got class credit for attending and participating in these events, These kids participated in the anti war demonstrations with the full support of their teachers. This was a well documented "happening" and was the topic of talk radio for quite some time after because many folks here thought letting the kids do this during school time with the support of publicly employed teachers was wrong. Back to the fire fight.

SilentObserver
03-03-2004, 20:32
I figured I would put my .02 in since i witnessed one of these rallies on UNC-Chapel Hills' campus last year. My friend and I were riding through the main street on campus, Franklin Street, when we saw a gathering of anti-war folks in front of the post office. We immediately went back to our house and took our huge American flag off the wall and went back down to show our support of the troops and mainly to be a pain in their ass. First, we found out like many of you have said, they were given permission by their school to use that as a day to protest the war. They immediately asked to spark up a debate with us. They said, "the war is costing tax payers too much money" Seeing as how my friend and I both had jobs he replied,"Oh, you mean our tax dollars that are going to pay for your teachers that currently have an empty classroom." That was the end of the discussion. Second, channel 17 news came by to take statements from the anti-war protesters and then from friend and myself. Which interviews do you think they showed on that night's news? The college educated, working adult....or the high schooler that was allowed to skip school and make signs from statements they heard off of the liberal news? I guess I just answered that one.

SO

Bill Harsey
03-03-2004, 21:26
So it wasn't just here...

CRad
03-03-2004, 23:53
In my son's second grade class, his teacher used sending letters to soldiers in Korea as a chance to have a writing lesson. They wrote the letters in computer lab and practiced using different fonts, colors, and inserting pictures into documents. They were creative, thoughtful, and she also used it as an opportunity to show them where Korea was on the map and to tell them a little bit about the country.

It's hard for me to be down on the school system when teachers like her exist.

Solid
03-04-2004, 02:04
Well, I said that if I was demonstrably wrong I'd unass the AO, and this is exactly what I'm doing.
Thank you very much for this spirited debate, I hope that I didn't offend anyone.
Have a good morning.

Solid
(the fat girl has left the building :D)

myclearcreek
03-04-2004, 15:02
My computer has been down for a few days, and look at all the fun I missed. :)


Several points:

Teacher training - there are many parents without formal training who are better natural teachers than those in classrooms with a framed certificate. One of my friends has seven children and has homeschooled for over 25 years. Her youngest child is 8 years old, her oldest 30. She is one of the most effective teachers I know, without an ounce of formal training. Her children are bright, productive, very social. My mother is a great teacher without a college education. My Dad was a wonderful teacher with one.

Socialization - In our homeschool co-op, there are over 300 children. Our local ISD has just over 350 children. There are a wider variety of activities available to my child outside public school than inside. Had I chosen private school rather than homeschooling, I would have been working a full-time job simply to pay the tuition and spend less time with my children, relying on other parents to help transport them to after-school activites, where I would arrive late (after work). We have Enrichment Classes on Fridays each Fall and Spring, which include both academics, sports, and fun. Chess club, swim team, basketball, and 4-H club are a few of the other opportunities. One of the private schools allows homeschoolers to play on their junior high football team.

Length of school day - When I withdrew my children from public school, the elementary principal assured me that I was doing the right thing for my children and that I could accomplish in 2 hours (3rd grade level for my youngest) what it takes them a full day to complete. The rest of their day is spent lining up, telling Johnny not to kick Sally, and preventing food fights, to name a few. Those basic manners are taught in most homes and can be reinforced by homeschool parents in outside social and family activites.

College admissions - RL, here is a website I created for our local group - it is not extensive, but serves their basic needs. Annually, I present a college-prep workshop for families with children in grades 8-12.

http://www2.nortexinfo.net/clearcreekranch/

Sacamuelas
03-04-2004, 15:25
MCC/Bill/Eagle-
How long do you recommend in "class" time per day needs to be spent where the child has to be quiet and listen to instruction, work quietly without breaks or conversation, etc. ? ( Eagle has answered already in his prior post. He believes in a full 6-7 hour day just like the other kids it seems. )


I think that local Jr. High football team opportunity sounds great... It is good to hear that this option is available for you guys. I always think about the home S'ers not getting enough interaction with other regular school kids to keep in touch with "trends" and current "cool" things. (if that makes any sense) I can only imagine how much of a dork I would have been if my dad was my main influence in clothing or current "lingo". LOL Is that even an issue for you?

Do you think that the peer stigma of being homeschooled is an issue for parents to be concerned with as the child gets older ( late teenager/college age groups)? I am interested to hear the opinions on this. I admit that as a young pup, I used to have negative impressions of home schooled kids back then.

What are your thoguhts on an option where you homeschool the children up through elementary school (5th or 6th) and then enroll them in a school for the teenage years ? Would there be any benefit to this approach in your mind? Or is that specific time period (Jr. High/HS) the one you feel is the worst for kids in a school environment?

Just asking.. there will be no argument either way from me. Just your opinions wanted if you have time. :cool: Thanks

NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2004, 18:07
Lt. Col. Robert Corrow (USAF-Ret.) certainly had no intention of igniting the wrath of Vermont's teachers' union. He only volunteered to teach a course for free to Williamstown High School students because he loves kids and loves teaching. The course, entitled "Conflict in the Twentieth Century", is based on his career experience in the Air Force and as a United Nations war crimes investigator in Bosnia.

Corrow has a bachelor's degree in English and a master's degree in counseling. A native of Newport, he was a certified teacher at North Country Union before leaving for Viet Nam in the late 1960s. He is also a member of the Williamstown School Board.

From all accounts his students are excited about his course.

The Vermont National Education Association (VT-NEA), on the other hand, wants Corrow's out of the classroom. The union has filed a grievance against the school district and demanded binding arbitration, a process which in practice often means forced capitulation to union demands.

http://www.act60.org/volunteer.htm

NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2004, 18:07
A legal group has filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. Justice Department alleging the nation's largest teacher's union has failed to file proper federal reporting and tax statements regarding its political activity.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34435

NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2004, 18:10
Recently, the National Education Association (NEA) published a guide aimed at combating the "Radical Right" on public education.

This guide is sweeping in its attempt to classify the so-called "Radical Right," identifying them as people who are illegitimately trying to influence education and culture in a negative manner.

The document demonstrates quite clearly how the NEA feels about conservatives. The document is filled with name-calling, ridicule, and accusation, and it displays an all-around shrillness that is difficult to ignore in quest of the small amount of substance contained therein.

http://www.mfc.org/pfn/97-11/nea.html

NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2004, 18:12
That damn NEA is a plague and a pestilence on decent folks. If I was in the US, I would be home schooling too. All you folks that are doing home schooling - I salute you.

SALUUUTE!

Roguish Lawyer
03-04-2004, 18:47
He's on a roll. :)

Bill Harsey
03-04-2004, 19:48
Just got logged on, lot's of catch up to do. D-9, (Good logging road building machine by the way...spent lots of time driving one) GREAT post on "socialization" best analysis on that topic I've ever read. You will go far Sir. Sacameulas, Sir, I will do some figuring for you on the time question. Time needed seems to increase with age. What I've learned about public schools is that students learn to endure long periods of non-productive, non-learning time while nothing is getting done (dealing with the screw ups etc.), Home Schoolin' compresses the time needed to get same things done. Concerning "tapering into the system" Yes we are trying to do that but for example our nearest high school doesn't know from year to year what science classes are going to be there due to budget concerns. The public school system (Oregon)is breaking the taxpayers who are paying for all the stuff public education has bargained for and demanded. They seem to be running out of money for the class room, all this while collecting more taxes than ever before in the history of the state for the purpose of public school system. No matter how much they get, they need more. This is well documented in Oregon.

Bill Harsey
03-04-2004, 19:51
NousDefionsDoc, I SALUTE YOU BACK, THANKYOU!!!!! When we meet the first round is on me. That goes for everybody else here. Will open separate "special" account in the morning.

The Reaper
03-04-2004, 20:00
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Just got logged on, lot's of catch up to do. D-9, (Good logging road building machine by the way...spent lots of time driving one)

Sir William, the Junior:

Before you gat all lovey dovey with D-9, you might ask him how he got that name.

TR

Bill Harsey
03-04-2004, 20:04
Comments concerned the machine, was carefully reserving judgement on the man, out of fairness to him. Will ask!

NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2004, 20:09
Originally posted by The Reaper
Sir William, the Junior:

Before you gat all lovey dovey with D-9, you might ask him how he got that name.

TR

Blllaaaaawww! Make him tell it! TELL THE STORY! LOL

Bill Harsey
03-04-2004, 20:12
This is gonna be good, I can tell. I'll Private message him now....

D9
03-05-2004, 00:24
LOL.

This story deserves more justice than I can give it in my semi-conscious/sober state (thanks to RAT for that, LOL). I'll tell it tomorrow, in all its glory.

D9
03-05-2004, 16:12
The story of the Battle of Caterpillar Ridge has been told, and is available in the Briefback forum. :D

myclearcreek
03-05-2004, 21:55
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
One would think that home-schooled kids would add quite a bit of diversity to college campuses, but . . .

According to my latest information, most universities do not track their students who were homeschooled. Many of them take community college courses either during their high school years or for one or two semesters after graduating before transferring to a four-year school. Not only does this skew the admissions stats, but gives the 4Y's an impression that they have very few, if any, homeschooled students on their campuses. Very few go in wearing a neon sign. Most simply want an education and no extra attention.

myclearcreek
03-05-2004, 22:28
Now that I have caught up with all the posting....

NDD, thank you! I have a name for the NEA and similar state organizations, but I teach my children not to use language like that, so I must be a good example. :D

Random responses to various posts...

When I withdrew my children from public school, it was the end of my oldest son's junior high years and second grade for my youngest. Both the elementary principal and two of my older son's teachers encouraged me and said if they had the support of their spouses, they would do the same. Financially, for most it is the sacrifice of a full-time income that most are unwilling to make. It took three years of research and in-depth discussions before I got the go-ahead. Now, I have only myself to ask whether I will continue to homeschool (yes, no question), but I am also responsible for supporting it.

I am a product of public school, but unlike most students, my Dad taught at the same school for most of those years. My parents were the first to volunteer for everything, and I can recall only one or two instances when they were not with me on a field trip or event. They were unusual, even then, and other students envied me such a family. I have no doubt TS and Doc T will be such coveted parents, and that many others on this board are as well.

Two of the families in our co-op faced legal battles in their early years of homeschooling. They calmly and rationally educated local authorities about the laws and were treated with dignity and respect from then forward.

Testing - I cannot recall if this was mentioned, but for college admissions, the standard was higher for homeschool students (SAT/ACT) for many years. That is no longer legal, at least in Texas.