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NousDefionsDoc
02-24-2004, 23:04
Why do so many come from the South?

Who was the best President and why?

Valhal
02-24-2004, 23:33
At least five come to mind for different reasons.
Thomas Jefferson for penciling an incredible document called the Declaration Of Independence

FDR for seeing our country through the great depression and WWII.

George Washington and Abe Lincoln for obvious reasons.

Ronald Reagan for breaking the Soviet's Back.

Just my ignorant opinion.

Notable mention; Clinton for teaching us all a new way of enjoying cigars. :eek:

Gonzo
02-24-2004, 23:34
NDD,

Of the 42 US Presidents, only 16 have come from the south (by “the south”, I mean south of the Mason-Dixon). Of those, 9 came from VA. However, the last president to be born there was Woodrow Wilson. Prior to that, it was Zachary Taylor who was president in 1850. The large number of Presidents from VA during the early part of American history is probably due to VA being the political, cultural, and economic center of the country at that time.

As far as who was the best President, I think there is a tie. One is Abraham Lincoln. He kept this country together after the Civil War, arguably the toughest time period in American history. The other is Franklin Roosevelt. Not only did he lead us through the Great Depression with innovative reforms and programs but he was the Commander in Chief through all but the last four months of World War Two.

However, my personal favorite is Teddy Roosevelt.

NousDefionsDoc
02-24-2004, 23:44
What I meant by "so many from the South" is because of the population, center of government, elitism from the northeast, etc.

Jimmy Carter wasn't born in the South?

Gonzo
02-25-2004, 00:22
Jimmy Carter wasn't born in the South?

I meant that Woodrow Wilson was the last president to be born in VA. Not that he was the last president born in the South.

What I meant by "so many from the South" is because of the population, center of government, elitism from the northeast, etc.

I think that being elected President is less a matter of where you are from and more a matter of what you can do. While the population and elitism of the Northeast is a hurdle to candidates from the South, I don’t think that they are as big as they used to be.

Of course, maybe I’m just an idealist….

The Reaper
02-25-2004, 06:55
Originally posted by Gonzo
As far as who was the best President, I think there is a tie. One is Abraham Lincoln. He kept this country together after the Civil War, arguably the toughest time period in American history. The other is Franklin Roosevelt. Not only did he lead us through the Great Depression with innovative reforms and programs but he was the Commander in Chief through all but the last four months of World War Two.

However, my personal favorite is Teddy Roosevelt.

You kids need a history lesson.

While I do not disagree about his supremacy, Lincoln did not survive to see the end of the War Between the States.

FDR was a socialist and is responsible for much of what is wrong with this country today.

Teddy Roosevelt is a personal favorite of mine as well.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
02-25-2004, 08:25
Oh sure Reaper, let me dig all the holes, lay out all the Claymores and you get to trip the ambush. LOL

Should have waited until they brought JFK into it.:D

Sacamuelas
02-25-2004, 10:14
Let's see... I could step over this little trip wire and go around the flank of all those little metal boxes that say "this side towards enemy", or I could strap a bunch of C4 to my chest and make a charge attack to spur some conversation. :p

I say.. Bill Clinton is the best president in the last five decades. He lowered the deficit, balanced the budget, created NAFTA, reformed medicaid, strengthened the military by trimming the fat, and left a legacy of political victories through negotiation not WAR.

Discuss...... LOL

D9
02-25-2004, 10:49
Originally posted by The Reaper
FDR was a socialist and is responsible for much of what is wrong with this country today.

Hear, hear! He might have been one of the five worst IMO.

Washington was an outstanding President, and helped our fledgling nation navigate in some difficult early years. He also probably could have become King at least once during his tenure and refused, affirming that those who bequeathed to us our liberty did so because they believed in it.

Jefferson was a good president as well, but IMO his best years were as an intellectual and statesman before his presidency.

Team Sergeant
02-25-2004, 10:57
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I say.. Bill Clinton is the best president in the last five decades. He lowered the deficit, balanced the budget, created NAFTA, reformed medicaid, strengthened the military by trimming the fat, and left a legacy of political victories through negotiation not WAR.



I cannot believe you put that on this website! You going to spit on us next.;)

The only thing worse than slick willy is the witch he refers to as a wife. She is one of the few people on this planet I would NOT piss on if she were on fire.

And I always thought the people of NY were a fairly intelligent crowd.

Team Sergeant

ktek01
02-25-2004, 11:17
Originally posted by Team Sergeant

And I always thought the people of NY were a fairly intelligent crowd.

Team Sergeant

Something in those old NYC voting booths makes their brain's stop working as soon as they step inside. No other way to explain Dinkins, Koch, and Hitlary.

NousDefionsDoc
02-25-2004, 11:26
Sacamuelas must want a new user name and title

Team Sergeant
02-25-2004, 11:33
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Sacamuelas must want a new user name and title

This is a clear example of "How to Draw Fire."

Sacamuelas
02-25-2004, 11:41
True...True.. True
I did enjoy seeing the different responses from the Quiet Professionals.

Almost immediately the Team Sergeant started a "quoting" response, then decided against even giving my post credibility by his response. He was probably in the middle of obtaining coordinates on my location for a UW counterattack right after he takes care of the all female glove makers that Joe thought he needed help with. LOL

After getting his plan organized, then he decided to acknowledge my obvious attempt to be humorous. Replying back with his own, he gave no credibility to my post by offering a serious rebuttal. This was intended to focus me on his diversion(friendly joke), relax my defenses by easing my anticipation, and make his assault that much easier. Nice! LOL

NDD, also picked up on the ambush, decided to respond by attempting to influence the TS into changin my name/title. Thereby eliminating the potential for my accusation of using his God powers in a debate yet still creating the conditions for the same end result. Nice! LOL

Yes, I dislike wild bill as much as the rest of you. FDR started the whole process though. Favorite/best... that is tough. Will have to think about it.

edited- Sorry TS. We haven't gotten enough libs on here to keep things interesting in this type of debate yet. I am going to track Kid A down on that farm. I don;t like having to be the cannon fodder. LOL

edited again, it looks like I saw the avatar for TS and thought it was the Reaper's response when in fact it was the TS. corrections made

CommoGeek
02-25-2004, 11:43
Washington for getting this country off and running.

Teddy Roosevelt for starting the US down the road to being a world power. The man had vision.

Lincoln and FDR were among the worst. FDR was a socialist and Lincoln had no use for the Constitution.

Sacamuelas
02-25-2004, 12:02
NDD- what do you think? Have I learned anything yet? Was I right with my assumption? LOL

HIJACK OVER.... back to the thread.

Favorite President: Ronald Reagan. Smart enough to let the individual experts (cabinet members and advisors) help shape policy in their respective fields. Strong enough to follow through with conviction once he made a final decision.

NousDefionsDoc
02-25-2004, 12:06
You just saved yourself for one more day

Valhal
02-25-2004, 12:08
Originally posted by CommoGeek
Teddy Roosevelt for starting the US down the road to being a world power. The man had vision.

Lincoln and FDR were among the worst. FDR was a socialist and Lincoln had no use for the Constitution.

Lincoln and FDR held the reigns during our country's darkest hours. I believe them to be true patriots even though in retrospect we might not agree with some of their decisions. They had courage and dedication to follow their convictions, unpopular though they might have been.

Teddy Roosevelt; You got to love a president that will get blinded in one eye in a boxing match during his presidency. (I got that from super millionaire last night)

OK I'll be your huckleberry NDD, what about JFK?

NousDefionsDoc
02-25-2004, 12:11
Originally posted by Valhal
OK I'll be your huckleberry NDD, what about JFK?
All show and no go

CommoGeek
02-25-2004, 12:39
Originally posted by Valhal
Lincoln and FDR held the reigns during our country's darkest hours. I believe them to be true patriots even though in retrospect we might not agree with some of their decisions. They had courage and dedication to follow their convictions, unpopular though they might have been.

You won't see many bagging on FDR for his wartime record. It is his domestic record which many, including myself, criticize. He began the policies which turned America into a welfare state.

Lincoln threw out the Constitution when he saw fit to do so and justified this by saying that it was to keep the Union together. The Consituition is the fabric which binds our nation together and I think that Lincoln's treatment of it is unforgivable.

Kennedy: Bay of Pigs.

Local_Pol
02-25-2004, 14:28
Ronald Reagan, for reasons already stated.

Dwight David Eisenhower. Primary reason is stability, being that he came into office, and did much to create a stable growth environment for the US economy. He got us out of active combat in the Korean Conflict and really presided over the foundation building of the modern US economy during his 8 years in office.

Everybody thinks of the Interstate highway system as the primary accomplishment, but actually far more infrastructure components were put in place during "Ike's" administration than most people realize.

My .02

NousDefionsDoc
02-25-2004, 14:32
Where did this term "active combat" come from? Has anybody ever heard of "inactive combat"?

Not picking on you locopol.

Local_Pol
02-25-2004, 14:49
"Where did this term "active combat" come from? Has anybody ever heard of "inactive combat"?"

Hmmm....

Valid point. As I was writing the earlier post, I'm wasn't quite sure how to describe the "end" of the Korean Conflict, being that it still hasn't officially ended - so I grabbed for "end of active combat". I know everybody uses the term "Armistice", but to me, that's like saying "both sides just got tired of fighting in Korea and went elsewhere"

Suggestions?

eyes
02-25-2004, 15:51
..........

Valhal
02-25-2004, 16:32
Originally posted by CommoGeek
Lincoln threw out the Constitution when he saw fit to do so and justified this by saying that it was to keep the Union together. The Consituition is the fabric which binds our nation together and I think that Lincoln's treatment of it is unforgivable.


Don't know too much about this era of History, maybe another thread about Lincoln would be educational.

Valhal
02-25-2004, 16:35
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
All show and no go

That sounds close to Clinton,
All show and much publicized blow.:D

Doc
02-25-2004, 16:40
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Why do so many come from the South?

As a humorous note, it's because the South has better leaders. j/k

Who was the best President and why?

In my lifetime which would go from President Eisenhower to now, I would pick our current President, GW Bush.

Why?

Because he's a good man/leader and he means what he says. Kinda like the guys in SF. I can identify with that.

I like the following Presidents for the following reasons;

Washington: Never told a lie and was able to help start up the greatest nation in the world.

Lincoln: Went to one too many movies. Kept the Nation together and freed the slaves.

Teddy Roosevelt: Walked softly and kicked ass. National Parks are cool too. I love riding through the Smokies on my Harley; thanks Ted.

Nixon: Watched the movie "Patton" three times and then decided to invade Cambodia. Everytime I watch Patton, I want to kick someone's ass too. I can identify with Nixon.

Reagan: Made me feel good about watching the movie Patton and wanting to kick ass. Built up the military. Defeated communism. The great communicator.

Bush Senior: Probably has the most impressive resume of any President I can think of.

HQ6
02-25-2004, 16:48
Favorites:
President Dwight D. Eisenhower
President Theodore Roosevelt
President George Washington

Least Favorites:
President Ulysses S. Grant
President William Taft
President Bill Clinton

D9
02-25-2004, 16:49
Originally posted by Doc
In my lifetime which would go from President Eisenhower to now...

Actually, Gerald Ford wasn't too bad either although he is often overlooked. The fact that he was so heavily ridiculed by the Left alone indicates he was doing something right.

Ike was a good general, but a lot of precedents were set in the Middle-East during his presidency that are still haunting us today. The age of appeasement in that region really opened during Ike's tenure.

ktek01
02-25-2004, 16:56
Originally posted by Doc


Reagan: Made me feel good about watching the movie Patton and wanting to kick ass. Built up the military. Defeated communism. The great communicator.

Bush Senior: Probably has the most impressive resume of any President I can think of.

Two of my favorites, and I served during their terms. The press was very unfair to Bush Senior IMO, youngest fighter pilot in WWII and they called him a wimp? WTF?

AustinMillbarge
02-25-2004, 17:11
How can any discussion of the best and worst presdients be held without mention of LBJ? Twice the social programs of FDR with none of the wartime leadership. FDR may have started the wheels turning on the giant goverment entitlement program bus, but LBJ got that sucker going at mach 1...not sure we'll ever recover from it, either.

I always thought James Monroe (with help from JQ Adams) was underrated. That Mondroe Doctrine thing worked out pretty well.

Like James Madison, too. More for what he did prior to entering the office, though.

Would agree with most on the Reagan, Washington, Lincoln, T Roosevelt bit. GW Bush gets a second term and continues to prosecute the WoT as he's done so far, and methinks he'll make the all time list.

Lincoln as one of the worst presidents? Man, that's just funny...or sad...I can't tell which. :D

Local_Pol
02-25-2004, 17:34
Originally posted by D9:
Ike was a good general, but a lot of precedents were set in the Middle-East during his presidency that are still haunting us today. The age of appeasement in that region really opened during Ike's tenure.

True, but what would have been the likelyhood that Adali Stevenson would have done any better? Because Stevenson would have been in Ike's place.

Let's not forget that Eisenhower also laid all the foundations for both NASA (which JFK got virtually all the credit for in the media) and the NSA. Also, most people don't realize to this day that Ike deserves a huge amount of credit for putting in place the foundations for our entire silicon revolution - just look what happened during his watch:

1) Mr. William Shockley, co-inventor of the transistor seven years earlier, founds Shockley Semiconductor Laboratories in Santa Clara Valley (1955)

2) A new company (Fairchild Semiconductor) is formed by the “Traitorous Eight” from Shockley Semiconductor. Gordon E. Moore, C. Sheldon Roberts, Eugene Kleiner, Robert N. Noyce, Victor H. Grinich, Julius Blank, Jean A. Hoerni and Jay T. Last split off and come up with ways to mass produce silicon transistors using a double diffusion technique and a chemical-etching system (1957)

3) Robert Noyce develops the monolithic integrated circuit -- a miniaturized electrical circuit on a fingernail-size wafer of silicon. Noyce’s Fairchild colleague, Jean Hoerni, takes the idea a step further and puts a collector, base and emitter all on one plane. That's the same basis for how it's done today (1958)

Ike wasn't a "showhorse" like JFK and many others - if anything, in comparison, he was a "plowhorse" - but he sure understood the meaning of the term "LOGISTICS".

My .02

CommoGeek
02-25-2004, 18:40
Originally posted by AustinMillbarge
Lincoln as one of the worst presidents? Man, that's just funny...or sad...I can't tell which. :D

Guess I'm both then...... I stand by my comments, however. He kept the country together but I fail to see him as "Honest" Abe.

Agree with the LBJ and Monroe comments. In retrospect FDR started us down the path and LBJ pushed us over the edge. His and McNamara's handling of Vietnam was criminal.

Another bad one was Grant: very corrupt cabinet and he did nothing about it.

The Reaper
02-25-2004, 18:59
I think Lincoln transformed from an idealist to a pragmatic "ends justify the means" sort of guy during the war.

Most people are ignorant of the root causes of the war, the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the states in rebellion, the suspension by the North of many civil rights during the war, the riots in Northern cities and widespread killings of free blacks there, the war crimes committed by invaders like Sherman, and the terrible things perpetrated on the Southern states and their people during the Northern occupation after the war.

Just my personal O.

TR

CommoGeek
02-25-2004, 19:41
Shall I lay out in more detail my take on Lincoln? In this thread or shall I start another?

TR, I couldn't agree more, sir. In the effort to preserve the Union he threatened the very liberties that made the Union in the first place.

AustinMillbarge
02-26-2004, 02:53
Originally posted by CommoGeek
Guess I'm both then...... I stand by my comments, however. He kept the country together but I fail to see him as "Honest" Abe.


I'm sure you're neither sad nor funny...strange funny, that is. You may be haha funny, so I shouldn't rule that out. :D

You are absolutely right that Lincoln showed a willingness to shove the Constitution in a drawer when it proved convenient (during the war, that is). I'm inclined to agree with TR's statement that this was because "ends justify the means" was the order of the day for Lincoln during the war.

I still believe he was one of the finest of our presidents, though, but that's just my .02. There seems to be a pattern among the great ones, IMO. Their idealism is what makes them giants; It's the pragmatism that can get them into trouble. The true greats' vision outweighs the errors, though, and I think this is the case with Lincoln.

Originally posted by The Reaper
Most people are ignorant of the root causes of the war...
TR, why would we want to delve into the nuances of the Civil War, its causes, or the consequences of reconstruction when it is far easier to sit around and pile on the South as a backwater haven for rednecks and racists? No region or group of people are so consistantly belittled and ragged upon as Southerners. Maybe it's so high-minded intellectuals can feel good about themselves. The war was fought over slavery, and all southerners are religious fanatics, members of the KKK and/or bigots. End of story, ok? Now I can sleep peacefully tonight.

I lived with a kid my freshman year of college who tried to argue that Southern slave owners were suppressing technology--in particular the cotton gin--prior to the Civil War because such technology would make slavery unnecessary. Where this came from, I don't know. And this kid was certainly not uneducated. Ignoring that historical facts rendered his argument moot, some other students dared suggest that slavery was perhaps one of many contributing factors to the war. Of course, he wouldn't hear anything of it. Economic factors?!? Hogwash! Not surprisingly, he attributed most of his (strong) dislike of white southerners to this erroneous information.

If a scholarship student at a highly selective Southern liberal arts college is this misinformed on basic American history, I shudder to think how much (or little) other people know about that period of our history.

Airbornelawyer
02-26-2004, 14:25
Originally posted by CommoGeek
Teddy Roosevelt for starting the US down the road to being a world power. The man had vision.

TR had vision, but William McKinley deserves the credit for starting the US down that path. Victory in the Spanish-American War, the occupation of Cuba, annexation of Puerto Rico and the Philippines, and the China Relief Expedition were on his watch. Of course, while McKinley came into office determined to resolve the Cuba question, much of McKinley's policy towards Spain was influenced by his Assistant Secretary of the Navy.

Our rise to world power status was inevitable given our growing economic power. One thing TR did was make sure we wouldn't be a world power in the European mold, by eschewing grand imperial ambitions (although maybe he should have kept Cuba).

McKinley and TR also had the able service of Elihu Root as Secretary of War (and later as TR's Secretary of State). Root created the modern US Army. Few occupants of that office have overseen a military transformation so marked, although Rumsfeld's legacy won't be known for years, if not decades. Probably the only other Secretary to have near as much of a legacy is Henry L. Stimson, but that's a topic for another thread...

BTW, my list (in chronological, not greatness, order):

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Ronald Reagan

BTW, for those criticizing the inclusion of FDR on various lists because of the New Deal, you might want to look again at TR's domestic policies for a more balanced picture of both men.

PS: in case anyone is confused, while no doubt our own TR is also a man of vision and would have led the Rough Riders with aplomb ;), the "TR" referred to above is Teddy Roosevelt.

CommoGeek
02-26-2004, 14:30
Re: TR and McKinley

Thank you ABL. I was thinking more of the Great White Fleet, but your answer makes more sense.

Airbornelawyer
02-26-2004, 15:02
Thanks.

BTW, I forgot a line. McKinley's aggressive Assistant Secretary of the Navy was Theodore Roosevelt. He resigned to join the First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry. The Secretary of the Navy, John D. Long, was considered a good administrator, but he was a politician first and foremost and had little interest in military matters per se.

While Long would go back to Massachusetts to escape Washington's oppressive summer heat, Rossevelt hung out at the Metropolitan Club, where he befriended the president of the Naval Board of Inspection and Survey, George Dewey, and President McKinley's attending surgeon, Dr. Leonard Wood. Roosevelt got Commodore Dewey placed in charge of the Asiatic Squadron on the run-up to war.

Airbornelawyer
02-26-2004, 15:11
Minor threadjack:

Long's congressional bio says he was born in 1838. He was admitted to the bar in 1861 and began practicing law in Maine. In 1863 he moved to Massachusetts and continued to practice law.

Does anyone remember something happening in the early 1860s that a twentysomething guy like this ought to have taken some part in?

CommoGeek
02-26-2004, 15:46
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
Minor threadjack:

Long's congressional bio says he was born in 1838. He was admitted to the bar in 1861 and began practicing law in Maine. In 1863 he moved to Massachusetts and continued to practice law.

Does anyone remember something happening in the early 1860s that a twentysomething guy like this ought to have taken some part in?

Considering that the Northern elite bought their way out of the draft, it isn't surprising. Go give some money to the family of some poor guy fresh off the baot and voila!, your own "deferment."

ktek01
02-26-2004, 17:46
Originally posted by CommoGeek
Considering that the Northern elite bought their way out of the draft, it isn't surprising. Go give some money to the family of some poor guy fresh off the baot and voila!, your own "deferment."

Very true, and one of the reason's for the draft riots. $300 or $400 could buy your way out IIRC. The South really didn't have the manpower to spare so I doubt that would have even been an option for them. Also didn't some of the "elite" use their wealth to buy a commission and fund their own units to lead in the war, on both sides? Or should that read raised their own units and then were granted a commission?

CommoGeek
02-26-2004, 18:49
Originally posted by ktek01
Very true, and one of the reason's for the draft riots. $300 or $400 could buy your way out IIRC. The South really didn't have the manpower to spare so I doubt that would have even been an option for them. Also didn't some of the "elite" use their wealth to buy a commission and fund their own units to lead in the war, on both sides? Or should that read raised their own units and then were granted a commission?

You are correct on all counts. Some that "bought" commissions were good leaders, some weren't.

eyes
02-27-2004, 06:28
...............

The Reaper
02-27-2004, 09:56
Originally posted by eyes


We owe that to Ike...

Or the Germans.

TR

Guy
02-27-2004, 10:41
Reagan
Bush Sr.
Bush Jr.

If Kerry gets the nomination for the Democratic Presidential Nominee and , choses Edwards as the VP running mate...we are going to have a political BATTLE for the next presidency.

Intruder
02-27-2004, 17:42
Not surprised to see a general pattern among the group.
I have to agree with Lincoln as well (He didn't see to the end, but he hung in there), Reagan for reasons stated (communism, military, etc) and I'm surprised to see Nixon only once (China, Vietnam, seemed to me to be a "regular" person - flawed). That by no means is to say every other President is perfect...

Personal Fave: GW Bush - the reason I signed. "Moral clarity," as Hannity says.

P.S. Why hasn't Carter received a mention..? :D

HQ6
02-27-2004, 17:56
Because he was a great diplomat... not a great President ;)

Roguish Lawyer
02-29-2004, 12:22
Joining a bit late, but you've all missed the correct answer:

James K. Polk

Why? Look at the map of the country before and after.

Other great ones IMO:

Lincoln
Reagan

ktek01
02-29-2004, 15:24
Originally posted by Intruder
Reagan for reasons stated (communism, military, etc)

Those are important, but lets not forget that President Reagan made Americans feel good about being Americans again. May not sound like much, unless you lived through that time and recall just how bad it was, even well before Carter and Iran.

Ockham's Razor
03-01-2004, 01:47
Theodore Roosevelt

I especially enjoy how he was made Vice President mainly to keep him from becoming President. Yet, when he became President, he showed that he was more in touch with the best interest of America than anyone knew. Walk softly and carry a big stick. Gunboat Diplomacy. He was one of those rare breed of men who just got things done. I especially enjoy how he gave up a life of comfort to lead his Rough Riders into battle.

General George Washington is, and always will be, my choice as best President. However, for this thread, Teddy Roosevelt fits the role very well. Fine American, great leader.

As a side note: It is amazing to read about the lives of those who have been our President. From those thet attained the role through wealth and privilege, to those that came from nothing to become the leader of our nation. It speaks volumes to what kind of Nation we are.

Roguish Lawyer
03-01-2004, 11:26
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Look at the map of the country before and after.


Not the exact dates, but . . .

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/borders/map1a.html

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/borders/map1b.html

Bio:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/James-Knox-Polk

Resolved to serve only one term, Polk acted swiftly to fulfill his campaign promises. In just four years, he oversaw annexation of Texas, settlement of the Oregon boundary dispute with Great Britain, reestablishment of an independent treasury system, and acquisition of territory from Mexico that eventually became California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Colorado and Wyoming. The former Mexican land came as part of the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, settling the Mexican-American War (fought from April 1846 to February 1848).

Roguish Lawyer
03-01-2004, 14:19
Today I will be NDD:

Good, we're all agreed. James K. Polk was the best. Next topic. :D