Fathers, Sons, and the Lessons of War

[Martin]

Fathers, Sons and the Lessons of War (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-schaeffer30may30,0,2300994.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions) in the Los Angeles Times
By Frank Schaeffer, Frank Schaeffer is a writer and most recently the author of "Faith of Our Sons -- A Father's Wartime Diary" (Carroll & Graf/Avalon, 2004).

[The Reaper]

Outstanding.

Thanks!

TR

[Gypsy]

Excellent, thanks Martin.

[Abu Jack]

Great thread,
Thanks Martin

[Razor]

Good story, and I'm really glad he finally understands. However, I think this also highlights the 'why should I care' issue that is partly responsible for the large rift between those in (or were in) the military and those that aren't at all affiliated. As he stated, until his son got involved in the war, and thus he stood to personally lose someone, he really didn't think about those fighting and dying in OEF and OIF.

[jatx]

Good story, and I'm really glad he finally understands. However, I think this also highlights the 'why should I care' issue that is partly responsible for the large rift between those in (or were in) the military and those that aren't at all affiliated. As he stated, until his son got involved in the war, and thus he stood to personally lose someone, he really didn't think about those fighting and dying in OEF and OIF.

Most Americans have not really been challenged to care. For example, all across the country this month, many of our best and brightest are graduating from college, and leaders from all parts of public life are giving them speeches. How many of those speakers are challenging those young people to sacrifice for their country? How many are making a personal appeal for individual participation in public service? Now think about the President, the Vice President, the leaders of Congress, and the Cabinet, all of whom have nearly unfettered access to the media. How many of them are saying, "We want YOU"? When was the last time that you saw any of those leaders look into the camera and really throw down the gauntlet? When was the last time that most Americans were made to feel truly guilty for not doing their part? It's been a long time, I'd wager.

I believe that Americans will respond to a challenge when the stakes are clear and they receive proper leadership. This sort of leadership is sorely lacking at the moment. While I am a proponent of mandatory national service between the ages of 18-20, it will never happen. But the least our leaders could do is ask more of our citizens in a direct fashion. You never know how people might respond.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

So I am to feel good about this sorry, sniveling, psuedo-patriotic father. Give me a damn break. He is justifiably proud of his son and kudos to the lad for doing what he thought was the right thing to do, but the old man is typical of every other individual in this country whose only contact with the military is the sticker shock they see when they look at the DOD budget. What he sees now as his sacred duty of " sheding tears for strangers" just frosts my Irish....
Rant over.

Jack Moroney-

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

many of our best and brightest are graduating from college

Best and brightest at what?

[jatx]

Best and brightest at what?

First off, notice that I said "some of." Second, they are the best in the world in many of their chosen fields and, like it or not, they are the best our Nation is going to have in each of those fields. They will also never be more idealistic than at this point in their lives, but they have not been issued a call to duty, military or otherwise. Do you really disagree?

[Roguish Lawyer]

First off, notice that I said "some of." Second, they are the best in the world in many of their chosen fields and, like it or not, they are the best our Nation is going to have in each of those fields. They will also never be more idealistic than at this point in their lives, but they have not been issued a call to duty, military or otherwise. Do you really disagree?

Oh, my. Dude, get your head down and RUN! LMAO :munchin

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

First off, notice that I said "some of." Second, they are the best in the world in many of their chosen fields and, like it or not, they are the best our Nation is going to have in each of those fields. They will also never be more idealistic than at this point in their lives, but they have not been issued a call to duty, military or otherwise. Do you really disagree?

Well actually you said "many", but then maybe my college degrees did not make me one of the best and brightest in my majors as I evidently cannot read.

[jatx]

Well actually you said "many", but then maybe my college degrees did not make me one of the best and brightest in my majors as I evidently cannot read.

Oh, come on, you KNOW that's not my point. :)

My point is just that public service, whether military or otherwise, is not part of the decision set being evaluated by most young Americans. Most parents don't raise their kids to think about it, and public leaders don't do much to fill the gap. The end result is that people feel disconnected and insulated from our national struggles. Let that accumulate for a couple of generations and you have men like the one above experiencing moments of clarity next to their sons' beds.

So what should be done about it? :munchin

[Roguish Lawyer]

Oh, come on, you KNOW that's not my point. :)


I think you're missing his point.

College boy.

LMAO :munchin

[jatx]

I think you're missing his point.

College boy.

LMAO :munchin

Instigator! :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Instigator! :D

No, I told you to run and you did not listen. We'll see how that works out for you. :p ;)

[dennisw]

I understand the best and brightest thing. To a certain degree I might even agree with it. Maybe brightest, but not the best. I also have problem with the rationale that our leaders should throw down the gaunlet and challenge todays youth to serve. Does each citizen need their political leaders to tell them their duty? Also, if the sons and daughters of our leaders don't serve, their words will be empty? When Pearl Habor was bombed there were lines a mile long at the recruiter stations. I don't think it was a function of our politicians encouraging folks to join.

Is the problem the parents? I'm sure that is a part of it. Whatever its cause, the malady is pervasive. We're not passing the prosperity test. Our current situation is a litmus test for our nation.

It's our educational system, our media, rampant drug acohol addiction, parents who wouldn't server themself and for good or bad, it will be our legacy. The real America is the souls of our citizens, and "Houston", I think we have a problem.

Most Americans are ignorant of history in general and ignorant of American history specifically. Most Americans do not understand the unique gift we have been given. Many Americans are morally bankrupt and can hardly carry on a conversation that's not about them. They are opportunist and the only God they serve is self satisfaction.

How an American or Americans can stand by and do nothing while immigrants from Mexico serve in our armed forces and die for this country is outrageous and disgraceful.

Some folks need a jolt to let them see the light. Saul of Tarsus had to be struck blind befor he could see. The father in this story needed his son to lead him. I'm afraid our fellow citizens are going to need a jolt of immense proportion before they get it in gear.

Freedom is for those who have capacity. It was the best and brightest that joined Leonidas at the Battle of Thermopylae.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Oh, come on, you KNOW that's not my point. :)

:munchin

Okay, let's start from the beginning. First of all most of the "best and brightest" institutions have liberal agendas so their grand and glorious education and molding of minds produce individuals that reflect those "values". So, you are surprised that no one will answer the call to something larger than themselves or go to work in support of their country when they feel that their country exists to serve them.

The "best and the brightest" moniker is a sham at best. There are very few, if any, college kids that are fully equipped by virtue of their college education to go forth and excell at anything without growing into his/her profession and for many, if they are fortunate to land a job reflective of their degree, they need additional training by the particular organization that hired them. If we are producing the best and the brightest why is it I have to call Mumbai, India, when I have a computer problem? If every year we get a new crop of the "best and brightest" there must be one hell of a turn over of those that graduated the year before them and all those CEOs holding down the corporations they all aspire to join must be shaking in their wing-tips fearing that their jobs are surely at risk.

For the bulk of all these "best and brightest" I have had the opportunity of working with over the years the only thing that they reflected at being the "best and brightest" at was putting off having to work for a living for four more years. No, a college degree is not the sole source of the best and the brightest it just offers some kid a chance over a four year period to perhaps, and I say again perhaps, mature, give him some tools that might or might not be applicable for breaking in to his chosen profession, and provides some teaching assistant with a meal ticket by teaching great a golorious things to undergraduates while professors for whom they work are off doing something other than their job. That being the case then, how is it that teaching assistants can produce the "best and the brightest" when these second stringers are imparting everything they think they know?

Look, my point is really simple. College kids don't know squat about the real world and while they may be the raw materiel upon which many of our institutions and professions depend they become the best and brightest after they are trained, mentored, tuned, and vetted and not, as is the case reflected by a diploma, after they are weaned.

You ask me how to fix it, well if I could I would be writing this as my introduction to a book called "Growing Patriots one Family at a Time" or "Teaching College Kids how to shed Family Bagage" or better yet, "Damn Sir, I didn't know that"

Jack Moroney-produced three patriots, learned from and worked with thousands of others-most of which were the best and brightest at what they did despite some college kid's incorrect perception of their academic deficiences

[lksteve]

Oh, come on, you KNOW that's not my point. :)

So what should be done about it? :munchinyour hubris is noted...now repeat after me "i'd rather sandpaper a grizzly bear's ass in a phone booth than mess with THAT Colonel..."

[aricbcool]

Now think about the President, the Vice President, the leaders of Congress, and the Cabinet, all of whom have nearly unfettered access to the media. How many of them are saying, "We want YOU"?

Bush has several times...
State of the Union, 2002
"My call tonight is for every American to commit at least two years -- 4,000 hours over the rest of your lifetime -- to the service of your neighbors and your nation."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html

Calvin College Commencement Address, 2005
"Second, we must understand the importance of keeping power close to the people. Local people know local problems, they know the names and faces of their neighbors. The heart and soul of America is in our local communities; it is in the citizen school boards that determine how our children are educated; it's in city councils and state legislators that reflect the unique needs and priorities of the people they serve; it's in the volunteer groups that transform towns and cities into caring communities and neighborhoods. In the years to come, I hope that you'll consider joining these associations or serving in government -- because when you come together to serve a cause greater than yourself, you will energize your communities and help build a more just and compassionate America."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20050521/pl_usnw/remarks_by_the_president_at_calvin_college_commenc ement204_xml

Ohio State University Commencement Address, 2002
"One of the main reasons people give for not volunteering is that no one has asked them to do so. Another reason, they don't know where to start. Well, today I'm asking each of you to serve your country..."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020614-1.html

[EX-Gold Falcon]

I understand the best and brightest thing. To a certain degree I might even agree with it. Maybe brightest, but not the best. I also have problem with the rationale that our leaders should throw down the gaunlet and challenge todays youth to serve. Does each citizen need their political leaders to tell them their duty?

Not neccesarily. Nevertheless the challenge offered by Pres Kennedy during his Inaugurational speech inspired many Americans (REGARDLESS of where they directed their zeal) As such, True Leaders possess the power to inspire others to greatness. Yet how many men of principal (both men and Women) chose to run for public office in this day and age? McCain being a notable exception.

Citizens shouldn't require a role model; but it certainly wouldn't hurt....


Also, if the sons and daughters of our leaders don't serve, their words will be empty? When Pearl Habor was bombed there were lines a mile long at the recruiter stations. I don't think it was a function of our politicians encouraging folks to join.

I say this with all due respect as an American in his early thirties, but this is an almost "apples vs oranges" comparison. For good or for bad, Americans were far more trusting of their gov't; and the gov't then had not made quite so many short-sighted decisions with regards to foreign policy as it has since.


Is the problem the parents? I'm sure that is a part of it. Whatever its cause, the malady is pervasive. We're not passing the prosperity test. Our current situation is a litmus test for our nation.

Too true...


How an American or Americans can stand by and do nothing while immigrants from Mexico serve in our armed forces and die for this country is outrageous and disgraceful.

A very poynette point. We should be both outraged and honored by their decison to serve.


Some folks need a jolt to let them see the light. Saul of Tarsus had to be struck blind befor he could see. The father in this story needed his son to lead him. I'm afraid our fellow citizens are going to need a jolt of immense proportion before they get it in gear.

Perhaps a jolt is neccesary, but how great a "jolt" will it take, and is our country strong enough to endure a jolt greater then Sept 11, 2001?

Every American has at one point witnessed self sacrifice for a greater good. Yet as Americans, we all have the right to decide our own course of action.


Freedom is for those who have capacity. It was the best and brightest that joined Leonidas at the Battle of Thermopylae.

Freedom is also choice. Those who chose not to serve have the right to do so. Personally I'd rather not serve by someone who has been forced.

It would not be difficult to change the dates of the father's letter to 1917.


T.

[aricbcool]

Yet how many men of principal (both men and Women) chose to run for public office in this day and age? McCain being a notable exception.

McCain? Principal? What school did he teach at? :D

But seriously, do you think that our current POTUS is not a man of principle?

and the gov't then had not made quite so many short-sighted decisions with regards to foreign policy as it has since.

I disagree. I think that the US has had many foreign policy problems since its inception. For the first 150 years we've had at worst wars, at best "volatile relations" with everyone from France, England, Spain and Germany, to Japan, China, the ABC powers, North Africa, et al. Some examples of short-sightedness include the Jay treaty and it's effects on the XYZ affair and the Quasi-War, the events leading up to the Barbary Wars, arguably the War of 1812, the Indian Removal Act, and the whole Native American mess. Moving into the 20th century, I'll add the failed League of Nations to the (not-all-inclusive and IMHO) list as well.

It's also hard to evaluate the amount of bad or short-sighted decisions the government had made pre-1941 due to the habit of history books brushing over items they deem irrelevant. For instance, in 100 years, do you think the average history book will report the incident where one of our Recon Planes emergency landed in China, resulting in Bush quasi-apologizing?

How many of those instances exist through history that we'll never know about?

Also, the US was prone to isolationism before WWII. Afterwards, we were forced to expand our foreign policy to more than just trade and colonial interests due to our emerging dominant role in world events. Rather than avoid the problems of the world, we have been forced to confront them and make some decisions along the way. Sure some bad decisions were made since, but I think it's better than sticking our head in the sand. :)

Regards,
Aric

[lrd]

Citizens shouldn't require a role model....
Why not?

I consider myself a citizen, but I also understand that I'm not the best citizen I could be. I look to my role models to show me the way to becoming a better citizen.

[dennisw]

Freedom is also choice. Those who chose not to serve have the right to do so.
I would argue this point. To expect rights, freedom and the associated prosperity
and not pony up to the responsibilty is incongruent. If they don't want to serve then maybe their bundle of rights should be diminished. Maybe their tax rate should be a little higher or they should be restricted from public office or from owning real property.

By the way, in my basic training class most of soldiers were drafted. They were good soldiers, often better then those who enlisted.

Although it is unfortunate, I personally believe 9/11 was nothing compared to what we will see in the future. The terrorist do not believe we are comitted as a nation, and will test us accordingly. We collectively see the terrorism in shades of gray, they see it as black and white.

[jasonglh]

What of those who wished to serve but were turned down by the military?

Becoming a civilian EMT was the closest I could get to my goal of being an Army Medic. My dad still cries when he talks about their medic crawling under fire to take care of him in Vietnam. Growing up I could think of no greater calling than that.

At age 33 I still have not given up on my goal. After I finish my Associate Degree Nursing program the recruiter said he could get me a waiver (or 2) to get me into the Army Reserve Nurse Corp. Not really what I wanted originally but if it will get me in uniform and a chance to serve I will take it.

[dennisw]

For me, the key is willingness to serve. If a medical condition exists which prevents a person serving it was out of the individual's control. I'm deaf in my right ear due to complications of the mumps when I was eight. However, I was in the infantry for four years. Go figure.

[aricbcool]

For me, the key is willingness to serve. If a medical condition exists which prevents a person serving it was out of the individual's control. I'm deaf in my right ear due to complications of the mumps when I was eight. However, I was in the infantry for four years. Go figure.

I'm surprised Artillery didn't snatch you up first. :D

I agree though. I think that if you go down to the recruiter's office and get turned away b/c of medical reasons, you've at least expressed where your priorities are.

Of course, if you walk away hurt and rejected, wiping the tears off your coke bottle glasses because they wouldn't let you be an FA/18 pilot, that's a different story. :D

I feel the same way about medical discharge. You may feel like you haven't done enough, but really you've done more than most citizens in this country even think about doing. More importantly, you've done all you could.

It's like the old football coach yelling at his team: "All I ask, is all you got."

Can you ask for more than that?

So jasonglh, I say good for you. :)

--Aric

[EX-Gold Falcon]

Why not?

I consider myself a citizen, but I also understand that I'm not the best citizen I could be. I look to my role models to show me the way to becoming a better citizen.

Actually, this line was in response to "Does each citizen need their political leaders to tell them their duty? "

Role models in politics are few and far between. Dedicated teachers do a far better job!


T.

[EX-Gold Falcon]

McCain? Principal? What school did he teach at? :D

But seriously, do you think that our current POTUS is not a man of principle?

Met him at ASU (while attending) and I'd take him over Pres Bush HANDS DOWN & ANYTIME.



I disagree. I think that the US has had many foreign policy problems since its inception. For the first 150 years we've had at worst wars, at best "volatile relations" with everyone from France, England, Spain and Germany, to Japan, China, the ABC powers, North Africa, et al. Some examples of short-sightedness include the Jay treaty and it's effects on the XYZ affair and the Quasi-War, the events leading up to the Barbary Wars, arguably the War of 1812, the Indian Removal Act, and the whole Native American mess. Moving into the 20th century, I'll add the failed League of Nations to the (not-all-inclusive and IMHO) list as well.

Barring the Indian Removal Act, everything else was dealt with and resolved years ago. It's the mistakes made since the end of WWII that we are currently dealing with.


It's also hard to evaluate the amount of bad or short-sighted decisions the government had made pre-1941 due to the habit of history books brushing over items they deem irrelevant. For instance, in 100 years, do you think the average history book will report the incident where one of our Recon Planes emergency landed in China, resulting in Bush quasi-apologizing?

They may not remember the Orion forced down into China, but I quarentee they'll remember Abu Ghraib prison & the detention center at Guantanamo Bay.

How many of those instances exist through history that we'll never know about?

Now isn't that a SCARY thought?!?!?!


Also, the US was prone to isolationism before WWII. Afterwards, we were forced to expand our foreign policy to more than just trade and colonial interests due to our emerging dominant role in world events. Rather than avoid the problems of the world, we have been forced to confront them and make some decisions along the way. Sure some bad decisions were made since, but I think it's better than sticking our head in the sand. :)

Isolationism is definetly not the answer. But decisions made that look no further then 8 years (two terms) into the future are not helping things as well.

Regards,
Aric

To you and yours as well,


Travis

[NousDefionsDoc]

Living the way we do is a priviledge, not a right. And priviledges have to be paid for.

As for college boys, I have been dealing with some PhDs in economics that are apparently incapable of successfully wiring a small sum of money from point A to point B. I have frequently dealt with college-educated "professionals" that have proven themselves incapable of following simple instructions.

There are only three types of people in the world: The Trained, those going through training, and the untrained. I will work with a trained GED holder over an untrained PhD any day. A college diploma is to me the same thing as a 10 year service ring from the FBI. It is proof that one was able to show up for the required amount of time and not irrevocably piss anyone important off. Whether or not anything was actually accomplished during that period is another question altogether.

And I never heard anyone claim that a college diploma made a rucksack lighter.

your hubris is noted...now repeat after me "i'd rather sandpaper a grizzly bear's ass in a phone booth than mess with THAT Colonel..."
I would have said "Jack off a wildcat with a handful of cockleburs", but excellent post Brother.

[lksteve]

What of those who wished to serve but were turned down by the military?that would have to hurt...i cannot imagine my life without being afforded the opportunity and privilege of serving...

At age 33 I still have not given up on my goal...Not really what I wanted originally but if it will get me in uniform and a chance to serve I will take it.i hear you...trust me, going downrange with a PSYOP unit didn't rank real high up on my list of things to do, but in this life, and in the service of one's country, you take what you can get...

[jon448]

And I never heard anyone claim that a college diploma made a rucksack lighter.

.
Wait... NDD they don't make the rucksack's lighter? Damn that spoils my whole plan.

But seriously I think the whole college thing just depends on the person while there are some of "the best and brightest" there are also TONS of kids who are just going through the motions to make their parents happy. Its like any real situation there are people who work there asses off but then there are slackers who just coast. Plus the problem with the whole best/brightest moniker is that it brings people to assume more then what can be supplied by an unexperienced person. Like NDD said there are the trained and the untrained and I think thats more of a difference then diploma or no diploma especially with so many kids these days getting degrees that have no real world application like English\.

Also speaking of the differences between someone who serves the country vs. someone who doesn't, I just read Starship Troopers again yesterday at work(god I love being a lifeguard) and maybe a system like that would work where the prior service are the only ones who get to vote. The problem with that is that American society is so pussified that people just assume that they should have certain rights. and usually aren't willing to put anything on the line for those rights.

Alright my tangent is over, off to sit in the sun, read a book and get paid for it. Have a good Saturday everyone.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Wait... NDD they don't make the rucksack's lighter? Damn that spoils my whole plan.

.

Actually some overpaid, over educated GS whatever with a diploma made the rucksack larger but made the equipment lighter and less functional. Now, with the larger rucksack you can carry three times as much equipment which more than offsets the "weight advantage" created with all the light weight "mission essential" equipment by at least a factor of two.

Now the reason why they made the rucksack larger was because up until some other"genius" came up with the extra cold weather sleeping bag you could actually fit the old mountain sleeping bag inside the ruck. However, once you took the "extra cold weather" sleeping bag out of it's hermtically sealed plastic wrapper you could only carry it strapped on top of the ruck wrapped in a ponch to keep it from getting wet. That is as long as you did not try and open the "extra cold weather" sleeping bag in a confined space. If you had done that you probably are not reading this now because you were crushed to death when it expanded, never again to be able to be confined to its original cubic foot dimensions. But it gets even better. Those of us that were "fortunate" enough to be equipped with this marvel of GS engineering found that it helped to conserve ammo, reduced the possibility of receiveing a head shots, but drove up the dental business for the Army dentists. You see, when you hit the ground in the prone position this marvel of over-educated scientists ( their term not mine, calling them scientists is akin to calling a junky an innovative hematologist)
would, through its own inertia, continue to move forward hitting you in the back of the head and driving your face into the turf. Hence, no head injuries from direct fire, ammo conservation because you could not raise your head to fire, and dental work for all the shifted and broken teeth from dirt eating troops.

Jack Moroney-have been subjected to almost more "good ideas" from scientists than iterations of the APFT

[Doc]

200 lbs of light weight gear still weighs 200 lbs.

Try reading Soldier's Load and Mobility of a Nation by S.L.A. Marshall even if you don't care for SLAM.

Doc

[CRad]

200 lbs of light weight gear still weighs 200 lbs.


Doc

Something about that statement strikes me unfair but funnier than anything I've heard all week.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

200 lbs of light weight gear still weighs 200 lbs.


Doc


My point exactly!

Jack Moroney

[lksteve]

My point exactly! unless it's in one of those modular rucksacks we got from Natick...then it's in 15 pound modular bundles all over the place...

ah, yes...Natick Labs...so many villages deprived of their idiots...

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

.Natick Labs...so many villages deprived of their idiots...

I gave Natick one chance to do something real simple and they screwed it up so bad that I took my money and went off shore. They are so entrenched in their own bureaucracy and that of AMC (=A Million Civilians) that they have perfected the science of technology looking for a mission.

Jack Moroney-"been to a county fair, seen hogs having intimate relations, have even eaten popped corn but I ain't never seen nothin' like Natick"

[aricbcool]

...people just assume that they should have certain rights

Frankly, they assume correctly.

I've got a quote for you:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Regards,
Aric

[lksteve]

Also speaking of the differences between someone who serves the country vs. someone who doesn't, I just read Starship Troopers again yesterday at work(god I love being a lifeguard) and maybe a system like that would work where the prior service are the only ones who get to vote. i don' think adopting the Spartan societal model is a prudent idea...we need all sorts of clowns for a circus as large as the United States, and while there are many people and points of view i disagree with, as long as they don't try to run my life or stifle my expression, i will put up with them...pacifists are, to a degree, a necessary evil...the problem is that many alleged pacifists are really just Democrats with a contrary opinion when a Republican is in office, but gung-ho to send US troops to UN supported throw-downs, as long as the ROE provide that US forces only shoot back after someone (US) gets hurt and are restrained from nipping trouble in the bud...i didn't hear many pacifistswhining about deployments to Bosnia, Kosovo or Haiti during WJC's tenure...

[alphamale]

If we are producing the best and the brightest why is it I have to call Mumbai, India, when I have a computer problem?Hi Sir Jack,

The direct answer is cost. Then, supply and demand.

Tons of highly skilled geeks in India are willing to work at a small fraction of the salary that highly skilled geeks in the US are. If I can't prove that I add any value over someone in India who can do the same thing at 1/6'th my salary, a company shouldn't pay me. They should get the equivalent skills from India.

CEOs calculate how many customers will probably get annoyed by it "tolerable loss" vs how many will find it "just barely good enough" and stay on as customers vs the net cost savings. Since CEO's are legally bound to operate in shareholder's best interest, they then make decisions accordingly.

It's fun to watch in shareholder meetings when someone tries to trick a CEO into saying something in the vicinity of illegal, like "ohhh sure, I agree with what you are saying which is __X__ is more important shareholder interests, therefore [blah blah blah]."

------

One of the smartest people I've known was one of the 2 XY high school dropouts who worked in my building who I helped them study an hour a week for their GED tests.

------

Related to earlier discussion: Have had some interesting offline discussions with folks here about the value of getting an MBA, which I constantly find useful in lots of situations and totally enjoyed the curriculum.

I think the first cut at an answer to the value of getting any degree or certification first and foremost falls along gender lines.

A) If you are male, it depends on exactly what you want to get out of it vs what you want to do with your life. The treadmill of today's economy forces companies to not pay for anything that doesn't add value to what they want to pay you for. So the answer is to either do it for your own interest or look at the premium that companies are willing to pay for that knowledge and those skills. If the job of your dreams can be done well by someone without the degree you think you need, then companies won't pay a premium for someone to do that job who also happens to have a degree.

B) If you are female, the analysis is much simpler. If the degree or certification is at least somewhat in the realm of being tangentially related to what you do: It's absolutely, positively yes. Because as a female, you don't get the benefit of the doubt when you are
1) in tough situations, and
2) where people are unfamiliar wtih you
unless you have lots of letters and certifications behind your name.

Guys can get by on bluster (i.e., are at least given a chance) for a while, even if unqualified. Femme types can't.

If you are good and are in a type of job where those who pass judgement on your work are familiar with you over time, then reputation can make up for doubts / hesitation caused by being female. But then when you switch jobs, all that is lost and you have to re-prove yourself over time. Yes, this is generally true, but the difference is how far back on the game board do you go when you have to restart.

Am trying to think of professions where this doesn't apply. Maybe Emergency Room doctors where they get paid if they are good regardless of first gender-based impressions from patients.

The ER doctor who treated me when I was hurt was a non-communicative, non-reassuring, English-as-a-10'th language XY that I would never have chosen to see, but I had no choice in the matter.

FrontSight

[Roguish Lawyer]

B) If you are female, the analysis is much simpler. If the degree or certification is at least somewhat in the realm of being tangentially related to what you do: It's absolutely, positively yes. Because as a female, you don't get the benefit of the doubt when you are
1) in tough situations, and
2) where people are unfamiliar wtih you
unless you have lots of letters and certifications behind your name.


Or unless you're really hot.

[alphamale]

Wrong, Mr. XY. :rolleyes:

In fact, the opposite.

If you are good looking, or at least not-ugly, that also is a detriment to knee-jerk judgements made in the type of high-stakes situations I'm talking about.

FrontSight

[Roguish Lawyer]

Wrong, Mr. XY. :rolleyes:

In fact, the opposite.

If you are good looking, or at least not-ugly, that also is a detriment to knee-jerk judgements made in the type of high-stakes situations I'm talking about.

FrontSight

How would you know? :munchin

[Roguish Lawyer]

Wow, rendered speechless twice in less than a week? :lifter