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NousDefionsDoc
05-28-2005, 22:11
Here they come
Article (http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050527/a_newfbi27.art.htm)
New breed of FBI recruits training to take on terror
At Va. academy, ‘geeks,' analysis, Arabic now rule
By Toni Locy
USA TODAY
QUANTICO, Va. — Timothy Lauster hadn't fired a gun since he was 9. Tiffany Kelley never fired anything but a BB gun. Then they joined the FBI.
Lauster, 28, and Kelley, 31, represent a newer, more technically savvy breed of FBI agent. He's a computer specialist, and she's an electrical engineer.
They and others like them are changing the world's best-known law enforcement agency because they aren't the lawyers, accountants or ex-cops that the FBI traditionally has attracted and recruited.
“I felt that if I could help, I should,” says Lauster, who has a computer science undergraduate degree and a master's in business administration. He says he took about a 50% cut in salary to leave a large financial strategies corporation to join the FBI.
Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the FBI has used radio and television ads, job fairs and its website to try to court computer-savvy men and women with multiple college degrees in sciences and languages as part of its emphasis on preventing terrorist attacks.
As of March 21, the FBI was about halfway toward meeting its 2005 goals for hiring agents with computer science, engineering and other science backgrounds. Karen Gardner, acting chief of the FBI's new agent training, says 30 engineers, 38 computer science experts and 28 science specialists were hired by March 21.
But the bureau continues to have difficulty recruiting people who are fluent in Arabic and other languages. By March 21, the FBI had hired only one Arabic speaker.
The FBI Academy, located on 547 acres of the U.S. Marine Corps base here, is key to the bureau's efforts to changing its focus from crime solving to crime prevention.
The academy's curriculum has been under scrutiny by FBI Director Robert Mueller and other top bureau officials since the terrorist attacks because of the need to train a workforce well-versed in counterterrorism, counterintelligence and information sharing. More than 3,400 new agents graduated from the FBI Academy from fiscal year 2002 to May 6. Up to 2,000 new agents may be trained in fiscal year 2007 alone.
The training is being done in the academy's 33-year-old decrepit buildings, which are crumbling and have cramped classrooms and stained carpets.
Congress has promised to pay for renovations, with $21 million allocated this year. But the academy cannot shut down even briefly because of the emphasis on training as many new agents as possible. The FBI is riding a post-9/11 boon in patriotism that's helped its recruitment efforts. Many of the new agents have left high-paying careers to join the fight against terrorism.
“This is a tremendous opportunity for the FBI to seize the moment … to show that they can do right,” says Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, a frequent FBI critic. “They just better not louse it up.”
The pressure of preventing another catastrophic terrorist attack has changed the atmosphere at the FBI academy's bucolic campus, where Gardner says curriculum changes have taken on a new intensity.
“There's no margin for error,” she says. “These kids have to hit the ground running.”
A key part of FBI training is teaching new agents the difference between intelligence and evidence, and ingraining in them the notion of sharing.
“We have the evidence mentality — that we can't release things because it would jeopardize the case,” Gardner says. “But a lot of things ended up sitting in our files. We are shifting away from that need-to-know basis to a need-to-share basis.”
New agents range in age from 23 to 37 with exceptions for law enforcement or other experience. The average age is 30.
FBI firearms instructors teach the art of shooting, starting with how to draw a gun while wearing a suit jacket — hand-me-downs that new agents wear while firing handguns or shotguns. Each new agent fires 3,000 to 4,000 rounds of ammunition before graduating.
When Gardner attended the academy in 1983, she says, “We were memorizing the five organized crime families in New York. We don't do that anymore.” The FBI now wants “more independent, self-directed people” who are linear, logical thinkers, she says.
Since 9/11, Gardner says, there have been a few “lopsided” classes, with more than the usual numbers of computer scientists and engineers. “We're asking ourselves, ‘Why are there so many geeks in this class?' It's because we're pushing to meet the (hiring) goals.”
At Hogan's Alley, a small fake city on the academy's grounds, new agents learn from their mistakes.
On a recent day, a class of new agents in their eighth week at the academy struggled to operate a police car loudspeaker. They also experienced the consequences of failing to thoroughly search an armed “suspect,” who pulled his blue plastic gun on a classmate.
And they learned about adrenaline rushes. Instructor Chris Robles, an 18-year veteran agent, covered his eyes as a car carrying several new agents came flying up one of Hogan's Alley's streets, jerking to a stop inches from the back bumper of a “suspect” vehicle.
“I was surprised at how real it felt,” says Lauster, a member of the class. “They (instructors) assume you know nothing. In my case, that was a great assumption.”
New agents also learn how to enter a house and check rooms for armed perpetrators. “They do it wrong on TV,” says David Linterman, 31, a mechanical engineer.
Chuck Taylor, the academy's resource management officer, says Hogan's Alley needs to be updated by adding, for example, an underground sewer so agents can learn how to deal with bioterrorism through fictitious releases of anthrax and other substances.
In defensive tactics instructor Jay Moeller's class, new agents work up a sweat. John Burns, 32, a mechanical engineer, says he thought he was in decent shape before he arrived at the academy.
“I'm not 18 anymore,” he says. “It takes more time to recover.”
we're in deep, deep...trouble...
for crying out loud, when i was 32, i was putting brand new 2LTs 10 years my junior in a hurt locker...now the FBI is hiring guys with a Walter Mitty death wish?...and they've stooped to hiring engineers ...dear God, they hired the most anal people on the planet to think outside the box?
and it seems the training is the first time these folks have seen...gasp a gun...
looks like the the 4I classification might come in handy...
NousDefionsDoc
05-28-2005, 22:20
I don't care much for the FBI as an institution. I don't think they belong in the CT business nor do they serve any useful function in overseas assignments. JMO.
But the academy cannot shut down even briefly because of the emphasis on training as many new agents as possible.
Scary stuff there.
Scary stuff there.articles like that cause me to put off the purchase of a rocking chair...
we're in deep, deep...trouble...
for crying out loud, when i was 32, i was putting brand new 2LTs 10 years my junior in a hurt locker...now the FBI is hiring guys with a Walter Mitty death wish?...and they've stooped to hiring engineers ...dear God, they hired the most anal people on the planet to think outside the box?
and it seems the training is the first time these folks have seen...gasp a gun...
looks like the the 4I classification might come in handy...
Exactly!! This guy (not to mention the other types they're recruiting) at most had to WALK across some campus at 18. There is a whole lot more to type and goes into my 40's and 50's, but not going there.
Please tell me these folks will go to the office, check out thier weapon, STAY in thier office/cubicle ALL day, check in thier weapon and go home.
The Reaper
05-29-2005, 07:43
Here they come
QUANTICO, Va. — Timothy Lauster hadn't fired a gun since he was 9. Tiffany Kelley never fired anything but a BB gun. Then they joined the FBI.
And yet they will give them minimal training and issue them one.
Good thing that 38 y/o retired SF guys are too old and feeble for that organization.
TR
Leozinho
05-29-2005, 12:04
You may already know this, but for others that are reading that don't know, the FBI's 37 year age limit for new recruits is not a judgement on whether the recruit would be physically capable of doing the job.
Instead, the rule's there because federal agents are required to have 20 years of service by the time they reach the mandatory retirement age of 57. Any time spent as a federal agent with a different agency will extend the maximum age limit for new hires.
There's been at times murmurs about Congress raising the mandatory retirement age, which would extend the maximum age limit for new hires as well.
Also, the 37 yo limit can be waived to 40 by the head of the agency when it's in the nation's interest. I don't know how rare that is.
Here they come
New agents also learn how to enter a house and check rooms for armed perpetrators. “They do it wrong on TV,” says David Linterman, 31, a mechanical engineer.
Aw Christ, TV is NOT an accurate CQB TTP ????? Our "room checks" for armed perpetrators have been off all along ????
Son of a bitch ! Killian!! get the entire team here now , and bring that antiquated SOP manual - the mechanical engineer just released classified intel, and we got a lot of changes to make!!!
While I agree there is a place for them, they have made themselves the "jacks of all trades and masters of none", and in some circles irrevelant.
CT field work to them is like calling a master plumber to your house and finding out they've been thru plumbing theory, training classes and computer certifications yet have never worked on a real pipe, and oh yea - they certified themselves. Just my personal observations and .02.
NDD - thanks for a wackin' my blood pressure over the left field wall bro.
Goggles Pizano
05-30-2005, 09:03
NDD while working in the LE community I can assure you the Feebies are hands down THE largest group of self important, lazy, chairborne, wanna be gumshoes I have ever had the displeasure of attempting to fight crime with. In 16 years I have yet to meet one who is not just a computer nerd with a shield and weapon (carefully stowed in the locker down the hall, you know, we certainly don't want to give the impression we're cops!).
Interesting article. But if the FBI wants to fight terrorists, gangsters & bad guys in general there is alot to be said for having people with "street smarts & common sense". Two charcterstics that are not associated with the FBI anyway.
Computor geeks & lawyers are experts in respective areas. But kinda like the CIA found itself a few years back when they where hiring many people with Mormon missionary backgrounds and accountatnts....this background is not going to have the people skills to recruit various bad guys in the mosques, backstreets and bars of the world.
The 37 year age limit definitly hurts. A retired SF guy who has been around the block will be much more useful than a arabic speaking computor geek with a Masters in mechanical enginering. You have to be able to talk to & read people! I've meet a few FBI guys who were pretty sharp and some that were lacking in people skills.
On the other hand the FBI was set up by a man that liked to dress up in womens clothes and be called Doris.
...and they've stooped to hiring engineers ...dear God, they hired the most anal people on the planet to think outside the box?
...
:eek:
Hey, HEY! That's a blanket statement Sir.
Everyone knows that lawyers and accountants are worse. :D
Everyone knows that lawyers and accountants are worse. not if you are a surveyor...only thing worse than engineers are excavators and realtors... :D
skipjack
06-05-2005, 13:17
Hey, what's wrong with Engineers? lol. Nevermind, don't answer that!
-skipjack
DunbarFC
06-05-2005, 18:39
I'm one of those computer geeks they recruited
Passed all their tests which were more like a super GMAT/SAT and was on the road
Til they lost my documents.........then lost them again........then again....
Not very impressed with them at all
SnafuRacer
06-05-2005, 18:54
I applied to NSA and CIA last year. I have a B.S in Informations Systems and speak Arabic and French fluently. I tried to talk to the FBI recruiter at a job fair, but she was too busy wooing some engineer geek from UCSD.
I never heard back from those two agencies.
Conclude what you like about their "pressing needs"!
Hey, what's wrong with Engineers? engineers measure things with a micrometer...surveyors mark it with chalk...contractors cut it with an axe...
skipjack
06-06-2005, 00:13
lol.... lksteve, I like that! Only I am an Electrical Engineer so I measure things in nanometers...
-skipjack
Cincinnatus
06-06-2005, 05:39
Reminds me of an observation my father (an amateur cabinet maker) often makes, "Carpenter's measure to the neares eighth of an inch, cabinet makers to the nearest thirty second of an inch, boat builders measure to the nearest boat." :D
A very good friend of mine who used to work in the intelligence community took a job with the FBI because he was sick of sitting behind a desk. He bought into their line about FBI being a cutting edge counter-terrorism agency and how that was their new focus, blah, blah, blah. He specialized in transnational crime, proliferation and terrorism. He is a Naval Academy grad, former Marine infantry officer, has his Masters from Monterey and speaks Arabic, German and Spanish at 3/3. He also taught a class at JMITC on asymmetric warfare. He won their top gun award in training. His top choices for assignment were New York, Boston, Miami, Washington.
Where did he end up?
Iowa.
Excellent use of resources. Two years in, he is sick of going after kiddie porn, meth labs and hydroponics and will likely leave the FBI. I wish he was an exception, but I know he is not.
Roguish Lawyer
06-06-2005, 10:54
A very good friend of mine who used to work in the intelligence community took a job with the FBI because he was sick of sitting behind a desk. He bought into their line about FBI being a cutting edge counter-terrorism agency and how that was their new focus, blah, blah, blah. He specialized in transnational crime, proliferation and terrorism. He is a Naval Academy grad, former Marine infantry officer, has his Masters from Monterey and speaks Arabic, German and Spanish at 3/3. He also taught a class at JMITC on asymmetric warfare. He won their top gun award in training. His top choices for assignment were New York, Boston, Miami, Washington.
Where did he end up?
Iowa.
Excellent use of resources. Two years in, he is sick of going after kiddie porn, meth labs and hydroponics and will likely leave the FBI. I wish he was an exception, but I know he is not.
Brutal.
Roguish Lawyer
06-08-2005, 12:31
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-arrest8jun08,0,6557121.story?coll=la-home-headlines
2 Men Held in Links to Terror
FBI arrests father and son shortly after the younger man returns from overseas, where he allegedly trained at an Al Qaeda camp.
By Greg Krikorian and Rone Tempest, Times Staff Writers
LODI, Calif. — FBI agents have arrested a man and his father after the son allegedly admitted attending Al Qaeda training camps in Pakistan that taught participants "how to kill Americans," federal authorities said Tuesday.
In a case that was still unfolding, officials confirmed that Hamid Hayat, 23, and his father, Umer, 47, were taken into custody Sunday. Authorities said late Tuesday that they were still trying to determine whether the arrests represented the discovery of a small network of Al Qaeda sympathizers operating in the agricultural town of Lodi, 40 miles south of Sacramento.
The arrests came days after the younger man was discovered aboard a San Francisco-bound plane even though his name appeared on a "No Fly" list of suspected extremists.
At the time, according to an FBI affidavit, Hayat was returning to the U.S. after having visited Pakistan.
According to the affidavit, he told agents that after attending Al Qaeda training camps in Pakistan in 2003 and 2004, he was given his pick of where to carry out his terrorist mission.
"Hamid advised that he specifically requested to come to the United States to carry out his jihadi mission," the affidavit says. "Potential targets for attack would include hospitals and large food stores."
While Hayat and his father remained in custody on charges of lying to federal authorities, family members denied that the ice cream truck driver or his son, who works in a fruit-packing plant, had any links to terrorism.
"The charges are totally false," said a female cousin of Hayat who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The family lives in a one-story house a block from Lodi's mosque.
The cousin said Hayat's most recent trip to Pakistan had nothing to do with terrorism.
Rather, she said, he went with his mother to arrange some marriages and visit relatives.
Hayat is the oldest of four children and was born in Lodi, according to the cousin. He went to Pakistan at the age of 9 "to memorize the holy Koran," she said.
Dozens of FBI agents arrived at the home early Tuesday, family members said, and seized videocassettes, photographs, fax machines, prayer books and other items.
Federal authorities declined to provide details about the case.
"All I can say is that this investigation is continuing," Sacramento FBI spokesman John Cauthen said.
But other law enforcement sources suggested Tuesday that the arrests followed a lengthy investigation by federal counterterrorism officials and would result in other arrests.
"These guys have been on the radar for awhile," said one official, referring to the Hayats. "And this case has more to it than just these two guys."
According to the seven-page FBI affidavit that was unsealed Tuesday, Sacramento FBI officials were first contacted at 5:30 a.m. on May 29, with information from FBI headquarters that Hayat would attempt to enter the U.S. later that day on a flight from Korea that was bound for San Francisco International Airport.
Sacramento Agent Pedro Tenoch Aguilar, in the affidavit, said authorities determined Hayat was en route to the U.S. despite being on a "No Fly" list.
The plane, according to Aguilar's statement, was diverted and allowed to land in Japan for refueling.
Breaking story, not yet on national news leads:
SACRAMENTO (AP) — Federal authorities arrested a father and son
after the younger man allegedly acknowledged that he attended an
al-Qaida camp in Pakistan to learn “how to kill Americans,”
according to published reports.
Hamid Hayat and his father, Umer Hayat, 47, were arrested over the weekend on charges of lying to federal agents, FBI agent John Cauthen confirmed to The Associated Press on Tuesday night.
The men both made a brief appearance in U.S. District Court in Sacramento on Tuesday and are being held in Sacramento County Jail.
According to prosecutors, Hamid Hayat trained to use explosives and other weapons, using photographs of President Bush as targets. The Sacramento Bee reported his age as 22; the Los Angeles Times said he is 23.
Umer Hayat was charged in the complaint with lying about his
son’s involvement and his own financing of the terror camp. Hisattorney, Johnny Griffin III, called the allegations “shocking” but said his client “is charged with nothing more than lying to an agent.”
The detained men are both U.S. citizens. U.S. Magistrate Judge Peter A. Nowinski denied a bail request for the elder Hayat, saying he was “a flight risk and a danger to the community.”
“He just returned from Pakistan where he built a new home and contributed financial assistance to an al-Qaida sponsored program training his son and others to kill Americans whenever and wherever
they can be found,” the Bee quoted Nowinski as saying.
Hamid Hayat’s attorney was not present for the court hearing, and Nowinski set a bail hearing for him on Friday.
Two other Lodi men, Shabbir Ahmed and Mohammed Adil Khan, are being detained on immigration violations, Cauthen said. He said he couldn’t give any further details, citing an ongoing investigation.
Ahmed is the current imam and Khan is the former imam of a mosque in Lodi, the Lodi News-Sentinel reported on its Web site. The men were detained after meeting separately with Umer Hayat on Saturday, the Bee reported. Hamid Hayat, who was born in California, recently returned to the state from Pakistan. After first denying any link to terrorist camps, Hayat reportedly told agents that he attended al-Qaida camps in 2003 and 2004.
“Hamid advised that he specifically requested to come to the United States to carry out his jihadi mission,” according to the affidavit. “Potential targets for attack would include hospitals and large food stores.”
FBI agents raided the Hayat home on Tuesday, family members told
the Times. They seized videocassettes, photographs, fax machines, prayer books and other items.
Hamid Hayat was on the federal “no fly” list and FBI
authorities in Sacramento were alerted by headquarters on May 29 that he was attempting to fly from Korea to San Francisco, the newspapers reported.
The plane was diverted to Japan, where Hayat was interviewed by
the FBI and denied any connection to terrorism before being allowed to fly back to California.
On June 3, he was interviewed by agents in Sacramento and denied attending any terrorist camps. After a polygraph test the next day
showed deception in his answers, Hayat acknowledged spending six months at a training camp in Pakistan in 2003 and 2004, the affidavit said.
Umer Hayat also at first denied that his son went to a terrorist
camp but later admitted that he provided a $100 monthly allowance to help his son attend the camp, according to the affidavit.
AP-WS-06-08-05 0452EDT
AQ has breached the wire,... RIGHT IN MY BACKYARD!!!!
I have spoken to some Pakistanis, here at work, that have known the father for a number of years. All have an admiration for the father. Consensus is that he was a good man who got caught into his sons web. IE: 1 Pakistani, who has known him for 16 years, did mention that he was giving $$$$ to his son while the boy was away at terrorist camp, approx $100 a month....IMO "You are either with us or against us" rings true to this day.
The father was the ice cream delivery man for the neighborhood. I have bought ice cream from him, in front of my house nonetheless, on several occasions. Seemed like a very respectful and kind man. That being said and presuming that some of my money could have went to the son, I am PISSED and I hope that he is executed in a slow and painful manner.
Roguish Lawyer
06-09-2005, 15:55
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lodi9jun09,0,4595524.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Ties to Terror Camps Probed
An investigation of Pakistani Americans' alleged links to foreign training centers expands beyond Lodi. A fifth person is detained.
By Rone Tempest, Greg Krikorian and Lee Romney, Times Staff Writers
LODI, Calif. — Immigration officials in Sacramento detained a fifth person Wednesday as part of what authorities described as a widening investigation of a group of Pakistani Americans and recent immigrants, some of whom allegedly attended terrorist training camps.
The initial arrests of a Northern California father and son with alleged terrorist connections were the result of a several-year investigation focused on the Muslim community of this Central Valley agricultural center, an FBI official said Wednesday.
"We believe from our investigation that various individuals connected to Al Qaeda have been operating in the Lodi area in various capacities, including individuals who have received terrorist training abroad," said Sacramento FBI chief Keith Slotter.
Umer Hayat, a 47-year-old ice-cream truck driver, and his 22-year-old son Hamid Hayat, a worker at a fruit packing plant, were charged with making false statements to federal investigators after being arrested Sunday. Three others were detained on immigration violations.
Defense attorney Johnny L. Griffin III, a former federal prosecutor representing the father, said the relatively minor nature of the charges does not justify the amount of attention the government is giving the case.
Umer Hayat "is being portrayed as a terrorist when all he has been charged with is making false statements to federal officials," Griffin said. "This is painting a picture with a broad brush."
At an arraignment Tuesday, a U.S. magistrate ordered Umer Hayat held without bail. Hamid Hayat is to be arraigned Friday.
The government's record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished. After the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, for example, FBI fingerprint experts erroneously identified a Portland, Ore., attorney as a suspect. Spanish police had questioned the accuracy of the fingerprint match. A federal judge in Portland later dismissed the case, and agents apologized to the attorney, Brandon Mayfield, a Muslim convert.
In a Detroit case, federal officials announced charges against three North African men with great fanfare in 2001. After the government initially won convictions, the cases fell apart and were eventually dismissed.
At a news conference in Sacramento, Slotter said the bureau in the latest case had no details about specific plans for terrorist acts.
"We do not possess information concerning exact plans or timing of specific targets of opportunity," Slotter said. "It has been reported that certain institutions such as hospitals and food stores were targeted. We do not have information that these or any other sectors in the United States have been primarily targeted or are specifically vulnerable to attack."
Slotter disclosed that the younger Hayat, who was born in the United States but studied for years at his grandfather's religious school in Pakistan, has been "under investigation for an extended period of time."
An FBI official in Washington confirmed that the arrests were part of a broader investigation into suspected Islamic militants within the Pakistani community in the United States, including Lodi. He said he could not discuss details of the probe or its findings to date, given the sensitivity of U.S.-Pakistani counterterrorism efforts.
Details about the direction of the federal probe were contained in an affidavit released Tuesday in which the younger Hayat allegedly told federal agents that he attended a terrorist camp in Pakistan for six months in 2003-04 and was instructed on attacking targets in the United States.
Included in the training, Hamid Hayat reportedly told agents, was target practice using pictures of President Bush.
Umer Hayat allegedly told investigators that he also toured camps operated by Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khalil, a family friend who once headed an organization identified by U.S. officials as a terrorist group. Both men allegedly made the statements after first denying any terrorist links.
Despite the FBI affidavit, family members in Lodi contend that the terrorist allegations are false. Salma Hayat, the mother of Hamid Hayat, said she was with him in their ancestral village of Hazro in the northern part of Pakistan's Punjab province while he allegedly was at the training camp.
A cousin, Maher, said Hamid was too frail to participate in training. "He was with his mom the whole time," the cousin said Wednesday.
At the Sacramento news conference, U.S. Atty. McGregor Scott said two other Lodi men, Muslim clerics Mohamed Adil Khan and Shabir Ahmed, have been detained by the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement on suspicion of immigration violations. On Tuesday, the FBI searched both men's homes and offices, as well as the Hayat home in Lodi, confiscating videotapes, photos and computer equipment.
The immigration and customs office confirmed late Wednesday that agents had also detained Mohammad Hassan Adil on suspicion of an immigration violation. Adil is the 19-year-old son of Mohammad Adil Khan.
aricbcool
06-09-2005, 17:32
"A cousin, Maher, said Hamid was too frail to participate in training. 'He was with his mom the whole time,' the cousin said Wednesday."
Momma's boy.
"Umer Hayat 'is being portrayed as a terrorist when all he has been charged with is making false statements to federal officials,' Griffin said. 'This is painting a picture with a broad brush.'"
Is that all?
Nevermind that making false statements could include: "No really, I'm not involved in a WMD terrorist plot to blow up the world."
Sheesh. :rolleyes:
magician
06-10-2005, 02:35
I don't care much for the FBI as an institution. I don't think they belong in the CT business nor do they serve any useful function in overseas assignments..
Unfortunately, I could not agree more.
The feebs are, in my personal opinion, the most hide-bound and archaic of all the federal agencies, utterly crippled by an insular culture that prizes conformity over all other traits.
We are a long way from Serpico, folks.
Unfortunately, I could not agree more.
The feebs are, in my personal opinion, the most hide-bound and archaic of all the federal agencies, utterly crippled by an insular culture that prizes conformity over all other traits.
Further evidence that the good magic man is terribly correct:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/004750.php
Jimbo - I posted the full read here. There is just too much to highlight.....
AP: Terror Expertise Not Priority at FBI
By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer
Sunday, June 19, 2005
(06-19) 11:36 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --
In sworn testimony that contrasts with their promises to the public, the FBI managers who crafted the post-Sept. 11 fight against terrorism say expertise about the Mideast or terrorism was not important in choosing the agents they promoted to top jobs.
And they still do not believe such experience is necessary today even as terrorist acts occur across the globe.
"A bombing case is a bombing case," said Dale Watson, the FBI's terrorism chief in the two years after Sept. 11, 2001. "A crime scene in a bank robbery case is the same as a crime scene, you know, across the board."
The FBI's current terror-fighting chief, Executive Assistant Director Gary Bald, said his first terrorism training came "on the job" when he moved to headquarters to oversee anti-terrorism strategy two years ago.
Asked about his grasp of Middle Eastern culture and history, Bald responded: "I wish that I had it. It would be nice."
"You need leadership. You don't need subject matter expertise," Bald testified in an ongoing FBI employment case. "It is certainly not what I look for in selecting an official for a position in a counterterrorism position."
In a development that has escaped public attention, FBI agent Bassem Youssef has questioned under oath many of the FBI's top leaders, including Director Robert Mueller and his predecessor, Louis Freeh, in an effort to show he was passed over for top terrorism jobs despite his expertise. Testimony from his lawsuit was recently sent to Congress.
Those who have held the bureau's top terrorism-fighting jobs since Sept. 11 often said in their testimony that they — and many they have promoted since — had no significant terrorism or Middle East experience. Some could not even explain the difference between Sunnis and Shiites, the two primary groups of Muslims.
"Probably the strongest leader I know in counterterrorism has no counterterrorism in his background," Bald insisted.
The hundreds of pages of testimony obtained by The Associated Press contrast with assurances Mueller repeatedly has given Congress that he was building a new FBI, from top to bottom, with experts able to stop terrorist attacks before they occurred, not solve them afterward.
"The FBI's shift toward terrorism prevention necessitates the building of a national level expertise and body of knowledge," Mueller told Congress a year after the suicide hijackings, as lawmakers approved billions of new dollars to fight terrorism.
Despite the testimony of its managers, the FBI said it has fundamentally reshaped itself to ensure the field agents on the ground who work the cases have the necessary skills, training and background for fighting terrorism. It noted it hired or redeployed more than 1,000 agents to counterterrorism and hired an additional 1,200 intelligence analysts and linguists.
"We fundamentally changed the criteria for hiring special agents and intelligence analysts to ensure that we get the critical skills, knowledge and experience we need to address today's threats," Assistant Director Cassandra Chandler told the AP.
"New agents receive personalized training from Muslim leaders. Street agents and managers in every field office have gotten to know the Middle Eastern and Muslim communities in their territories and regularly attend training sessions sponsored by community leaders," she said.
Daniel Byman, a national security expert who worked on both congressional and presidential investigations of terrorism and intelligence failures, reviewed the Youssef case for the court. Byman concluded the spurned agent is one of the government's most-skilled terrorism fighters and that the FBI overall remains weak in expertise on the Middle East, terrorism and intelligence liaison.
"Many of its officers — including those quite skilled in other aspects of the bureau's work, lack the skills to work with foreign governments or even their U.S. counterparts," Byman concluded.
"Knowing about counterterrorism would help a supervisor ensure a proper investigation and avoid missing important aspects of the case," he said.
Watson, who oversaw the first two years of transformation, testified he could not recall a single meeting in the aftermath of Sept. 11 in which FBI leaders discussed the type of skills or training needed for counterterrorism.
Youssef's lawyer, Steve Kohn, pressed further.
"What skill sets would they need to better identify, penetrate and/or prevent a future Osama bin Laden-style terrorist attack?" Kohn asked.
Watson answered: "They would need to understand the attorney general guidelines for counterterrorism and counterintelligence investigation."
"Anything else?" the lawyer inquired.
"No," Watson answered.
John Pikus, who held a key supervisory job during the reallocation of agents from traditional crime-fighting to terrorism, testified that the FBI did not create new screening standards to promote terrorism experts to its upper ranks.
"Strengthening up the criteria for selection," Pikus answered when asked where the FBI was deficient in its terrorism hiring.
Pat D'Amuro, one of the FBI's most-experienced senior managers in terrorism, testified that when he was brought to Washington to oversee the Sept. 11 investigation, eventually promoted to executive assistant director, he brought lots of agents with him from New York who had terrorism backgrounds.
But rather than conducting a systematic search for the bureau's most talented Middle Eastern and terrorism agents worldwide, D'Amuro testified, he brought to Washington the agents he personally knew had worked successfully on al-Qaida and other terrorism cases.
He said that in later promotions, Middle East and terrorism experience was helpful but not mandatory, noting the FBI also must deal with terrorism from domestic sources and the Irish Republican Army.
"It could be a benefit. When you look for managers, you're looking for people that can lead people, manage people, knows how to conduct an investigation, knows how to collect certain intelligence or information, you know," he testified.
When asked if he had any formal terrorism training that justified his appointment as the No. 3 FBI official, Bald said, "It would have been on-the-job in the counterterrorism division." Bald entered the counterterrorism division in 2003 after leading the FBI's Baltimore office during the Washington sniper case.
The assistant Bald brought in to run the division last year gave a similar account.
"It's a tremendous learning experience, the seat that I'm sitting in. You learn every single day about this," Deputy Assistant Director John Lewis testified.
When asked whether he, as the FBI's former counterterrorism chief, could describe the differences between Shiite and Sunni Muslims, Watson answered, "Not technically, no."
He also said that his assertion a few years ago that bin Laden had been killed — a declaration that conflicted with CIA assessments and fresh video evidence — was not based on fact. "It's my gut instinct," he answered.
Youssef, the agent suing the bureau, was credited with improving relations with Saudi Arabia during the late 1990s as bin Laden's threat grew and the bureau struggled to solve the case of the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing.
He received a special award from the intelligence community for meritorious work and was singled out by his managers for "continuous creativity and perseverance" in terrorism cases. Saudi officials said they regarded Youssef as the most skilled U.S. agent in conducting lie detector tests on Arabic-speaking suspects.
But after Sept. 11, Youssef repeatedly was passed over for top-level headquarters jobs in terrorism. Instead, he was offered same-rank positions in budgeting or exploiting intelligence from terrorism documents.
Freeh, the former FBI director who left that job three months before the terrorist attacks, testified that he believed Youssef should have gotten an important terror-fighting job in the post-Sept. 11 era
"I think, you know, given his experience, certainly his language, you know, domestically he would probably have a much more required role and be of greater help back at headquarters," Freeh said.
One FBI supervisor, just-retired Agent Paul Vick, testified that Youssef had the "many skills that were badly needed" after Sept. 11 and the FBI's failure to utilize him was "inappropriate and a waste of a very important human resource."
Daniel Byman, a national security expert who worked on both congressional and presidential investigations of terrorism and intelligence failures, reviewed the Youssef case for the court. Byman concluded the spurned agent is one of the government's most-skilled terrorism fighters and that the FBI overall remains weak in expertise on the Middle East, terrorism and intelligence liaison.
"Many of its officers — including those quite skilled in other aspects of the bureau's work, lack the skills to work with foreign governments or even their U.S. counterparts," Byman concluded.
"Knowing about counterterrorism would help a supervisor ensure a proper investigation and avoid missing important aspects of the case," he said.
Byman is a very astute guy. He is my advisor at school and was recently promoted to the head of the program.
"What skill sets would they need to better identify, penetrate and/or prevent a future Osama bin Laden-style terrorist attack?" Kohn asked.
Watson answered: "They would need to understand the attorney general guidelines for counterterrorism and counterintelligence investigation."
"Anything else?" the lawyer inquired.
"No," Watson answered.
This one exchange sums up all my years of dealing with this agency.
Indifferent arrogance abounds and the ability to see a 360 picture is non-existent. If this agencies thinking was any more in the box their buildings would be painted pale blue and have Tiffanys written on it.
You know, as I looked into the future, I considered joining one of these agencies after going through the military. After this thread, I feel more inclined to leave that idea alone. Its funny. Shows like "24" make it seem as if these people actually know what they are doing. Another reason not to believe what you see on TV. I think they would be better off trying to get guys with SO experience instead of college geeks. Books smarts alone don't cut the mustard. My .02.
Shows like "24" make it seem as if these people actually know what they are doing. Another reason not to believe what you see on TV.
This is a joke, right? You didn't REALLY watch '24' and think that it was an accurate representation of counterterrorism operations, did you?
Jimbo,
Merely an observation. I'm sure it doesn't hurt their recruiting though...
Jimbo,
Merely an observation. I'm sure it doesn't hurt their recruiting though...
It does hurt the recruiting. It attracts people who have unreal expectations about the job and who after a very brief period, become bored with the job and think they should be doing more 'exciting' things and have nicer offices and high tech toys. Read 'Blowing My Cover' to get a sense of the kind of person shows like 24 and Alias attract.
The CIA website uses Jennifer Garner (star of Alias) as their poster girl. As far as recruiting goes, I'm unqualified to make any inferences of value.
Jimbo,
Merely an observation. I'm sure it doesn't hurt their recruiting though...
Yes and No! It does attract those that wouldn't consider the job opportunity, but it does flood the system with wannabe's that quote movies during recruiting tours.
Next time any alphabet government agency does a recruiting symposium in your neck of the woods show up, stand by, and listen to the people doing the pitch and listen to the potential recruiting pool. A lot of the time you hear a question come from them regarding what they saw in a movie vs. what really happens.
The crowd it draws is not unlike one that you'd see at Comicon or a Star Trek/ Star Wars convention. A bunch of people living (sadly) vicariously through hype and a desire to be something that is only imaginary.
Yes and No! It does attract those that wouldn't consider the job opportunity, but it does flood the system with wannabe's that quote movies during recruiting tours.
Next time any alphabet government agency does a recruiting symposium in your neck of the woods show up, stand by, and listen to the people doing the pitch and listen to the potential recruiting pool. A lot of the time you hear a question come from them regarding what they saw in a movie vs. what really happens.
The crowd it draws is not unlike one that you'd see at Comicon or a Star Trek/ Star Wars convention. A bunch of people living (sadly) vicariously through hype and a desire to be something that is only imaginary.Probably no worse than the crap you hear in a Army recruiters office or MEPS (from recruits). Man, I was floored by some of the foolishness. I saw so many thro-backs in my short visits it was disturbing. In reality, advertising is almost always a distorted view of how things really are. Some of the Navy commercials are a good example. They have Godsmack playing in the background, and some guys that look like a bunch of seals speeding through the ocean with big guns. Hardly an accurate view of what the average Navy recruit would be doing. Can't say I blame them though. I wouldn't know what else to try.
Probably no worse than the crap you hear in a Army recruiters office or MEPS. Man, I was floored by some of the foolishness. I saw so many thro-backs in my short visits it was disturbing. In reality, advertising is almost always a distorted view of how things really are. Some of the Navy commercials are a good example. They have Godsmack playing in the background, and some guys that look like a bunch of seals speeding through the ocean with big guns. Hardly an accurate view of what the average Navy recruit would be doing. Can't say I blame them though. I wouldn't know what else to try.
You completely missed my point. It wasn't from the recruiters perspective. I was trying to explain the potential recruits perspective. First and formost Hollywood is not a great recruiting method. Jennifer Garner has what most recruiters use, associative links (and sex appeal). She portrays a spy, CIA is notorious for it's buisness, spying. It fits, but look at it like any other commercial or advertisement you see. It's all a bunch of BS.
Those that choose to emulate what they see on TV are in for a big slap in the mouth when they realize that what they thought was neat and cool, actually involves hard work and determination.
TV does nothing but give couch potato Bobby the preconceived notion that he can be great. These are the same people that have been lied to all of their lives because their families told them that they could be anything they wanted. If you choose to believe that then you are gonna hate yourself even more when you don't succeed. Not everyone can be a QP, or a soldier or whatever. Some are better fitted to ride desks than others. Because someone has aspirations to be something doesn't give them a leg up on the competition.
Your observation of recruiting videos (be it civilian or military) being "Crap" is mostly on par. But as I posted in the first sentence of my post "...but it does flood the system with wannabe's....", even out of that group a recruiter will find a use for them. Maybe it's riding a desk or driving a delivery truck, but they have a use.
Bottom line you have to try something for yourself to get a good perspective. Living off of others dreams and stories hoping that you can be just like them is gonna get you in the front door but it'll be a quicker return trip back out. Get out and do something for yourself and stop regurgitating other peoples rhetoric. I don't need you telling me that recruiters are liars. You have to lie to yourself before someone else can fill you full of S**t.
SGT B sends a :D
First of all, the "crap" was from the potential recruits. You obviously don't understand a word I have said. Nevermind. I have no desire to argue.
This disconnect between what actually happens in a day by day experience in the Navy and what the recruiters portray is something I believe endemic to our country as a whole. During OIF, CNN/Fox/Whatever News all had "after the football game" reporting, complete with the coffee mug, the know-it-all quarter back (usually W. Clark), and a sanitized play-by-play of our movements North through Iraq. We seem determined to ignore the brutal realities of our foreign policy or the Navy's need for paint chipping . . . Sheeple (a great word; read it on this site) would rather be told pretty lies than ugly truths.
The Army of One ads would have one believe couch potato video game skills transfer directly to the Infantry. What a con job.
Roguish Lawyer
06-20-2005, 11:50
Wait, Alias and 24 aren't realistic? :rolleyes:
Wait, Alias and 24 aren't realistic? :rolleyes:
finally some humor
Wait, Alias and 24 aren't realistic? in the same manner 'Perry Mason' and 'Ally McBeal' are, yes...
First of all, the "crap" was from the potential recruits. You obviously don't understand a word I have said. Nevermind. I have no desire to argue.
Were you sure to stick out your pinky and look down your nose at me when you said that?
If you think I'm prodding I'm not. If you can't take the light sparring I don't know what to tell you.
Let me leave you with some southern humor since that is more to your liking.
It's like kissin' your sister, it feels right but you know it's wrong.
It's like kissin' your sister, it feels right but you know it's wrong. I wouldn't know bout that one. Light sparring is fine. I just try not to go to far off the rabbit trail. Overall I think we agree on things. Personally, I like to go into a situation having as much info as possible. I think it is the individuals responsibility to separate fact from fiction. If I said that some of this fluff didn't cause me to want to be SF I would be lying. There are occasions when the real life is almost or more unbelievable than media. There is some wild stuff in the book "Inside Delta Force", for example. I try to sober myself with the thought of the pain and suffering that I would or may endure along with the boring trivial stuff as well. It kinda scares the gung ho out, and forces me to consider what I'm really getting myself into. Won't know what its like till I try though.
I wouldn't know bout that one. Light sparring is fine. I just try not to go to far off the rabbit trail. Overall I think we agree on things. Personally, I like to go into a situation having as much info as possible. I think it is the individuals responsibility to separate fact from fiction. If I said that some of this fluff didn't cause me to want to be SF I would be lying. There are occasions when the real life is almost or more unbelievable than media. There is some wild stuff in the book "Inside Delta Force", for example. I try to sober myself with the thought of the pain and suffering that I would or may endure along with the boring trivial stuff as well. It kinda scares the gung ho out, and forces me to consider what I'm really getting myself into. Won't know what its like till I try though.
Now your trackin'
Oh and I don't know about kissin' my sister. Didn't have one. And yes my family tree does fork (a few times, and has some crooked ass branches)!
aricbcool
06-20-2005, 18:44
Not everyone can be a QP, or a soldier or whatever.
Reminds me of this: http://store.yahoo.com/demotivators/potential.html
:D
--Aric
Reminds me of this: http://store.yahoo.com/demotivators/potential.html
:D
--Aric
I had a boss that threw one of those in with the original motivational posters to see if anyone would notice while walking down the hallway.
The suprised look when someone would come to the one titled "LOSING: If At First You Don't Succeed, Failure May Be Your Style.
They have a humorous effect on me, but some actually get the abandoned puppy look on their faces.
Yep,....I'm going to hell! :D
aricbcool
06-21-2005, 17:21
Yep,....I'm going to hell! :D
I'm sure I'll see you there. :D
My personal favorite: http://www.despair.com/adversity.html
--Aric
I'm sure I'll see you there. :D
My personal favorite: http://www.despair.com/adversity.html
--Aric
Be sure to remember that my eternal punishment will have something to with stamping peoples hands like they do at a club and telling everyone how hot it is this time of year!
I like the adversity one. Anticipation of death is worse than death itself.
NousDefionsDoc
07-07-2005, 23:16
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8087593
Have 'turf battles' impeded U.S. war on terror?
Federal agent claims FBI halted key investigation
By Victoria Corderi and Richard Greenberg
Dateline NBC
Updated: 3:03 p.m. ET June 3, 2005
Victoria Corderi
Correspondent
Is our government doing everything it can in the war on terror? A highly-respected federal agent says no and he's making a troubling accusation. He says the FBI intentionally put the brakes on an investigation into a suspected al-Qaida fundraising operation. Why? The answer, he says, is a flaw exposed by September 11 that still hasn't been fixed.
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Three years ago, President Bush gave a directive to succeed in the war on terror, law enforcement agencies need to work together:
Bush: “Information must be fully shared so we can follow every lead to find the one that may prevent tragedy.”
So you'd think that if a decorated federal agent had evidence of suspected terrorist activity, the government would pull out all the stops to follow up. Think again, says this man.
Joe Webber: “My concern is that we have learned nothing from the events of September 11.”
Joe Webber, a 30-year veteran of federal law enforcement, says the government sat on important information about suspected terrorist activity on U.S. soil. He's so outraged, he says, he's willing to risk his career by going public.
Victoria Corderi: “Have you ever done anything like what you're doing today? To come forward to criticize the government?”
Webber: “No. This is probably a very career-limiting move.”
Webber runs the Houston office of the Department of Homeland Security's Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, “ICE” for short.
He says the story begins two and half years ago when his office started investigating a man believed to be raising money for terrorists. Webber doesn't want to jeopardize the ongoing case by revealing too many details, but he will say the suspect was in direct contact with known terrorists.
Webber: “There's clearly probable cause to believe that the target of the investigation was in communication with those involved in international terrorism.”
Corderi: “With Osama Bin Laden?”
Webber: “Those associated with Osama Bin Laden, yes.”
He says the FBI has intentionally impeded the investigation being conducted by his agency, ICE.
Webber: “I was told point blank, they are not going to let ICE pursue this investigation.”
To understand why this hits a raw nerve for Joe Webber, you need to know what happened to him on September 11. Back then, before he took over the Houston office, he was in charge of the New York office of U.S. Customs which was located at number six World Trade Center, right next to the Twin Towers.
He was there when the first plane hit, Webber saw to it that all 500 of his staff evacuated. After the second plane struck he rushed back into his office.
Webber: “I felt an obligation to make sure that the building was empty.”
He was still inside when the first tower collapsed. Part of his building went with it. Debris rained down on top of him and he was trapped.
Corderi: “What were you thinking?”
Webber: “Well there were some private thoughts there, but I recall thinking that was the end. And thought of my family. Said a prayer.”
His prayer was answered when two firefighters came to his rescue.
That day changed him. He says he is haunted by unthinkable images and devastation.
Webber: “Words cannot describe the sight of people jumping from a building. It's difficult to get through a day without thinking about it, very difficult.”
Which is why when one year after September 11 his office zeroed in on that suspect in Houston who was allegedly raising money for terrorists, Webber says he and his agents dug hard for two years. He says they collected a lot of evidence of the suspect's terrorist ties, but needed more to build a criminal case. And the best way to do that was a wiretap. To get permission for one, they had to lay out what they'd learned so far in an affidavit.
Webber: “That affidavit referenced terrorism on 49 occasions, referenced bin Laden by name on three occasions, and referenced al-Qaida twice.”
Webber says he made a point of following President Bush's directive about sharing information and he submitted the affidavit to other federal law enforcement agencies.
The local FBI office and federal prosecutors in Houston were on board, he says. And so were Justice Department officials in Washington.
Webber: “And at every level, they said, ‘Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, good luck. ICE and FBI working well together in Houston.’ Everything was on track.”
NousDefionsDoc
07-07-2005, 23:17
Pt 2
But he still needed approval for the wiretap from FBI headquarters in Washington, where he says his request sat on a bureaucrat's desk for four months. Webber says he kept asking what was happening.
Corderi: “So you'd never experienced this kind of lag before?”
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Webber: “No.”
And, he says, what was making his blood boil during the wait, was the news he was hearing out of Iraq: terrorists offering reward money for the deaths of Americans.
Webber: “It was $3,000 for the death of a U.S. Serviceman, $2,000 for the death of an Iraq Serviceman, and $1,000 for a U.S. contractor.”
Corderi: “Without terrorist financing, that wouldn't be possible.”
Webber: “Correct. If they don't have the means of support to carry it out, they can't do it. I was no longer going to wait patiently.”
So, he says, with his terror funding suspect apparently still active, he called FBI headquarters directly last December and asked officials for a meeting to resolve any problems with the wiretap request.
Webber: “And the answer was, ‘We have too many people on vacation due to the holidays, and we'll be there next week.’ I was shocked. We work 7 by 24. It's a fulltime law enforcement operation.”
Webber says he finally got his meeting in January, But, still, no go-ahead for the wiretap.
Webber: “What the Bureau began to allege was, there were problems. There were conflicts. But when pushed for specifics, they couldn't articulate what those were.”
He says friends inside the FBI finally told him the real reason for the delays. It was because the case was not generated by the FBI itself, but came from Customs agents.
Corderi: “You mean a turf battle?”
Webber: “That's correct. That's correct.”
Corderi: “That the FBI would put a turf battle above national security?”
Webber: “That's absolutely my impression. You would think, in a post-9/11 environment, that an event like that wouldn't occur. But it did.”
Webber says he became fed up and wrote to two government offices he hoped could intervene, but didn't hear back. Finally, he contacted Sen. Charles Grassley, the Iowa Republican with a history of investigating problems with the FBI.
Sen. Charles Grassley: “He's got a great deal of credibility.”
Sen. Grassley says he's been able to confirm key aspects of Webber's account and believes the FBI would have acted differently if the case had come from within.
Sen. Grassley: “They would've jumped on this so fast that you'd see the smoke. And they didn't jump on it. It's quite obvious.”
Corderi: “That seems incredible if you're talking about a terrorism investigation.”
Sen. Grassley: “It's a compromise of our national security. And it's evidence, further, of the institutional disease that the FBI has, that they always want to be in control of everything.”
Sen. Grassley says he discussed Joe Webber's case with FBI director Robert Mueller.
Sen. Grassley: “I don't want to repeat what he told me, but I think that I can conclude that he thought this was a very isolated incident. But it's not an isolated incident. Just that’s clear.”
Sen. Grassley says that because he's looking into other cases that may have been mishandled by the FBI for similar reasons -- turf battles. And, separately, federal agents have told Dateline of yet another terrorism funding investigation they say the Bureau neglected for two years because it didn't originate as an FBI case.
The FBI and ICE declined to be interviewed on camera and said that federal law constrains them from discussing matters under investigation. But they issued a joint statement saying that they "work closely together" on numerous investigations, and share a "spirit of cooperation ... at the highest levels."
They say "any and all terrorism leads are aggressively pursued" ... and though there is often healthy debate about the best.... approach, it's "never at the expense of public safety or national security." And they say they "have an established framework to discuss these issues, make decisions and move forward in the best interests of the American public."
As for Joe Webber's case, he says that between the time he asked for the wiretap and the time Sen. Grassley began asking questions, the government missed intercepting more than 700 communications by the suspected terrorist fundraiser operating on U.S. soil.
Webber: “Seven hundred conversations, never to be recovered. And if one dollar, one dollar has found its way into the hands of a terrorist that impacted the life of a U.S. citizen or a soldier in Iraq or even a citizen of another country, we lost. We lost.”
After four months and only after he complained to Sen. Grassley, Webber says, the FBI finally decided to pursue the case in its own way, but he fears it may be too late.
Corderi: “I can see someone saying it's sour grapes. The FBI has cut them out of the loop. It's sour grapes. Is there anything to that?”
Webber: “I don't believe so. People within the FBI have expressed their displeasure, within the FBI, about how badly this case was treated and how inappropriately the case was handled.”
Webber, who is about to retire, says he has no ulterior motives in coming forward -- that what he wants is to ensure that turf battles will no longer get in the way of a more important war: the one against terrorism.
Webber: “I am not a disgruntled employee. I love my job. I love our system of government. I somehow walked away from a building on September 11 due to two heroes, two firemen. I have a debt of gratitude I can never repay. I can never repay that. But I can't let this happen either. This can never happen again.”
Will we ever know what really happened in this case? Maybe. Sen. Grassley is now pushing both the Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security for a formal review.
magician
07-08-2005, 01:11
please pardon me while I step into the latrine and hurl.