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NousDefionsDoc
05-01-2005, 13:02
I just saw a deal on the news where they said GM has to pay $1,500 of every car manufactured for health care benefits for retired workers because of the deal they negotiated with the union. The analyst estimates that within five years they will be broke and the Chinese will buy the manufacturing capability. Explain to me again why US jobs are running overseas?

Kyobanim
05-01-2005, 13:11
On the same note, 80 percent of Wal-Mart's suppliers are in China. And China just bought IBM's personal PC division.

What happened to Made in the USA?

rubberneck
05-01-2005, 13:13
I have had to deal with the UAW more than once in my adult life and everytime I hear their name mentioned my skin crawls. Don't get me wrong, unions used to serve a very important role and still do in some cases. Having said that, unions make it very difficult to do business in this country often to the detriment of their dues paying members.

NousDefionsDoc
05-01-2005, 13:20
Who screams the loudest about jobs going overseas?

ghuinness
05-01-2005, 14:15
I book marked an article a few months ago. It is now subscription only. Any one
have a subscription to the NY Sun? It was informative.

Here is an excerpt. (Failing to Junk was the article title).

http://www.nysun.com/article/10928

It's hard to believe that the bond rating of General Motors may soon fall to junk, but it's true. Last week, GM announced an expected loss of $850 million, about $1.50 a share, for the first three months of 2005. The company slashed its profit forecast by $2 billion for the year.

It's troubling news, obviously, for GM's shareholders and employees. But if more Americans paid attention to the troubles facing General Motors, they might grasp the urgency of America's Social Security crisis. General Motors is going bankrupt for the same reason Social Security is going under: unfunded liabilities in the form of promised benefits to retirees.

Over the decades, union leaders have won such generous pension and healthcare benefits for GM employees that today GM is the world's largest private consumer of health care, covering the medical costs of more than 1 million people. Health care represents more than $1,000 worth of cost, on average, in every vehicle General Motors produces, its chairman, Richard Wagoner, has said.

GM spends more on health care than on steel. The health-care costs — about $5.5 billion a year and growing — are fixed. GM's unfunded health-care obligations amount to $57 billion. GM also holds America's largest private pension obligation. The company estimates its total future American pension costs at $87 billion.

The company's total market valuation stood last week at $16.39 billion. General Motors was once the leading car manufacturer in the world. Today, it's a pension fund and a health maintenance organization with a relatively small car-making operation on the side.

Roguish Lawyer
05-01-2005, 14:31
NDD, Enemy of The People! LMAO

I agree.

Detonics
05-02-2005, 13:42
So, General Motors had no idea of their potential pension/benefit liability when they signed the contract? Or could it be that they had an actuary on staff and figured that at some point they'd have to pay the piper but by then the auto manufacturing biz would go the way of the rest of U.S. manufacturing and they could either default on their obligations through bankruptcy or lay the burden off on the U.S. Pension Guarantee Fund the way the steel industry has. Of course the Pension Guarantee fund is going bankrupt too.

Industry has taken their profits and we are now left with an empty husk, the U.S. manufacturing system. Unions, as one poster noted, played an important part in protecting workers from predatory employment practices. Unions have become totally irrelevant in today's society. "Oh, you airline machinist's want how much per hour? Hey, well we can have the planes taxi down across the San Diego airfield into Mexico and they'll do the work for one quarter as much and, hey we don't even have EPA concerns if we do that!" Where do Jet Blue and America West do the majority of their maintenance? Why, gosh, in El Salvador!

Now we have a vast labor pool that is unable to organize for collective bargaining, unable to participate in retirement programs and unable to seek redress for workman's comp or wage and hour violations due to the fact that they are not legally in the U.S.

Is there anyone here that really believes that Congress and the Administration doesn't know what is happening to U.S. industry? Is there anyone here who believes that what is happening to U.S. industry was not planned long ago? Billions of dollars to host think tanks, consumer studies, data modeling, actuarial profiles and risk analysis and this is just a random circumstance? :rolleyes:

vsvo
05-03-2005, 22:30
When I was in b-school in the mid-90’s we did a case study related to the auto industry. I remember my strategy prof. hammering GM’s strategy because everything was geared towards keeping the vast number of assembly plants humming. As long as the lines were near capacity everything would be peachy. He said that as soon as they couldn’t move the cars they would be in trouble. With North American market share at around 25% and falling, it appears that time has come.

The only way GM is going to pull itself out is with hot products. When profitable SUV’s were flying out of dealerships nobody complained about legacy health and pension costs, because GM could afford to wait out the contract (and the pensioneers on the books to pass). GM chose not to invest profits into developing the rest of its product line. I love my Tahoe (0% over 5 years from GMAC didn’t hurt), but besides the Corvette and large SUV’s, which are aging and not slated for replacement until ’06 or ’07 (hopefully with a diesel-electric hybrid option unless they have to whack that program), nothing else in the lineup seems competitive. They brought in Robert Lutz to lead product development, but it’s hard to create great cars when your goal is to keep as many plants running as possible. Another great American company about to look very different.

Pete
05-04-2005, 06:38
Goes anybody remember how the military got stuck with all the Dodge Powerwagons and CUCVs in the 70's? It seems there was a company having a few problems so the government bailed them out by buying a bunch of civilian vehicles and painting them OD. Just changed a few things here and there and said they were GTG.

If you purchased health insurance like you did car insurance (what you needed based on sex, age and condition) company costs would fall everywhere. Big company policies are so broad the cost is out of sight. Why does a 30 year old single guy need a policy that covers abortion and breast enhancements?

Pete

jbour13
05-04-2005, 06:55
......Why does a 30 year old single guy need a policy that covers abortion and breast enhancements?

Pete

Maybe he's dumb and somewhat confused?????

:D

vsvo
05-04-2005, 08:24
According to BusinessWeek, salaried, non-union workers at GM pay $100 a month for their medical premiums, $10 for generic drugs, and $25 for brand-name scripts. UAW members pay nothing for their premiums, and smaller amounts for drug co-pays.

According to The Detroit News, GM's UAW members bear the cost of 7% of their health care costs, and salaried workers about 27%, compared to the average employee in the US who pays 32% (I don't know the breakdown of that figure, e.g., folks who don't have insurance, etc.).

Instead of protecting its members from unsafe factory conditions, the UAW can now point to these generous health benefits to justify its existence and increase recruitment. It can also offer up Wal-Mart, which is at the other end of the spectrum. Wal-Mart charges its non-union associates such a high amount for health care that most of its low-paid associates are driven to state programs, resulting in several states proposing legislation to force large companies (i.e. Wal-Mart) to provide a certain level of health coverage to their employees.

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-04-2005, 08:33
Why does a 30 year old single guy need a policy that covers abortion and breast enhancements?

Pete

Maybe he lives in Vermont or some other gender conflicted state where civil unions and same sex marriages are the order of the day :D

Jack Moroney-

vsvo
05-04-2005, 08:42
Kirk Kerkorian's Tracinda Corp. has offered to buy up to 28 million shares of GM at $31/share, to add to the 22 million shares it already owns. Perhaps Kerkorian is salivating at GM's $19.8 billion cash hoard. Kerkorian made a run at Chrysler before it was bought out by Daimler.

twil13
05-04-2005, 17:25
One reason so many jobs are moving over seas is due to our economy shifting to service type jobs. By the end of 2005 81% of the jobs here will be in service industries. The contingent work force is growing a ton right now also, so all those manufacturing jobs and skilled jobs are going to China. I think part of the problem is American society; we want things given to use and want it cheap. I personally hate going to Wal-Mart, but it is the place in town that has the stuff cheapest. With the increase in the contingent workforce and temporary jobs, we see an increase in diversity here also. Many minorities are filling those low skilled jobs and the majority wants high paying skilled jobs that are unfortunately becoming scarcer. What is funny is that we started buying Chinese exports during the Cold War to get at the Soviet Union, and now it may come back to bite us in a big way in the coming years. It will be interesting to see how the market continues to change in the next 10-15 years. I don't know about you guys, but I personally don't find most service jobs very appealing with the average wage being $.63 on the dollar compared to a manufacturing job. When I am done with the Army I would like to apply some of the skills and knowledge I gained, but who knows what kind of market will be available in 20 years. With you gentlemen that have retired recently or looking to retire soon, do you see a good choice of jobs for your skills?

Tony

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-04-2005, 19:57
With you gentlemen that have retired recently or looking to retire soon, do you see a good choice of jobs for your skills?

Tony

If you are referring to civilian counterpart skills for what I did, there are none. If you are talking about employment opportunities I have had more offers than I can remember. If you are talking about marketing yourself, the jobs are there if you are willing to apply yourself to meet certain adjustments to civilian attitudes and styles and/or go back to school. As for adjustments, when I processed thru the VA when I retired they told me I was unemployable in the fields for which I had attained degrees before entering the military so they sent me back to school.

Jack Moroney

lksteve
05-04-2005, 20:14
When I am done with the Army I would like to apply some of the skills and knowledge I gained, but who knows what kind of market will be available in 20 years. With you gentlemen that have retired recently or looking to retire soon, do you see a good choice of jobs for your skills?


which skills are you referring to? my management skills? my marksmanship skills? my skills in working with foreign nationals on their home soil? my skills as a trainer? my skills with maps, navigational instruments, with the management of spatial data (trust me, a military map overlay is part of a GIS)? i learned a lot of skills in 22 years in the Army...some worthwhile, some of dubious value...

i bring everything i learned in life (and the Army was a good chunk of it, up to now) to my profession...i work in a field where for every five who die, retire or leave the profession, only three or four achieve licensure to replace them...i can't find people to train to replace me because the work is both outdoors and occassionally demanding physically, as well as requiring math skills, judgement skills and a familiarity with things technological that goes beyond a game boy...

i manage a department responsible for projects in the milliions of dollars...an error can cost the firm a considerable piece of change (not to mention, my job)...i check, i inspect, i demand...not unlike the SOB i could be as a commander or as a squad leader...

i interviewed two people today...one was a forty year old, with a decent work history, but seemed to lack focus and drive...

i hired a kid just out of the Army, recently returned from Baghdad...he wants a career, not just a job...i can train someone like that...a DD 214 carries some weight with the company i work for...and a guy just back from Baghdad...the other guy never had a chance...

the skills you pick up in the service are transferable...in my eyes, anyway...all you have to do is focus on what you want...

of course, you have some time...

twil13
05-04-2005, 21:23
The kind of skills I was thinking of are team building, rapport building, planning and execution, adapting to environment, etc. I know there isn't a huge market for a lot of MOSs in the real world, but I believe those other skills that are acquired must be pretty useful. Seems like you are using those skills to your advantage lksteve. :) I think you are correct with the idea of having some focus and knowing what you want. Do you have some education in the field that you are now in? If so, did it make a big impact on your being hired? I appreciate the input.

Tony

lksteve
05-04-2005, 21:41
The kind of skills I was thinking of are team building, rapport building, planning and execution, adapting to environment, etc. I know there isn't a huge market for a lot of MOSs in the real world, but I believe those other skills that are acquired must be pretty useful. Seems like you are using those skills to your advantage lksteve. I think you are correct with the idea of having some focus and knowing what you want. Do you have some education in the field that you are now in? If so, did it make a big impact on your being hired? I appreciate the input.



those skills you mention would work in any employment environment...i do not consider myself to be a 'people' person, but i do believe in getting things done...in the last three positions i've held (all as field management), supervisors and clients have remarked that i seem to get things done...because i'm a great manager? don't think so...because i can adapt to an environment and because i can work within systems foreign to me...

as far as education goes, i could say everything i needed to know, i learned in training group, but that would be a bit of a stretch...i have a degree in Geology...i was motivated toward that end as a detachment commander of a mountain team...i loved climbing and skiing and i thought when i retired, it would be nice to be near mountains (i finished my degree on the Degree Completion Program, being OCS trash, and all)...i found out there was no way to earn a living as a glaciologist, even with a PhD and that most professional geologists had advanced degrees...as i already had a fully-funded master's degree (International Relations) i wasn't real motivated in another academic experience...i took a job as a survey crewman for $6 (1994 dollars, i might add) an hour while on terminal leave as a retired major...i worked my way up through the ranks, achieving licensure as soon as eligible (i had to suck up another educational credential, available via distance learning through the University of Wyoming)...i set a goal, i found out what i needed to do to get there, and i started working toward it...

when i started as a surveyor, was i educated to be one? no...a degree in geology is helpful, from a conceptual point of view, but licensing boards don't understand the connection between mapping the surface of the earth and surveying it...they seem to miss out on the point that most maps of the US were done by the US Geological Survey...what i did was take the tools i had (land nav skills, management skills, outdoor skills), add my educational background (aerial mapping, levelling, measuring), apply a box load of motivation (internally provided), added a lot of hard work and got where i am today...it is not much different from going into the pipeline to become SF qualified...nothing worth having comes easily...

the Army didn't directly supply me with any skills...my baccalaureate education didn't directly provide me with any skills...but my training confirmed a belief that i held that if i put my mind to a purpose, if i kept me head on straight, if i did my research, if i relied on myself, i could achieve what i was shooting for...even without knowing it was where i needed to be...

the company i am working for is short quality personnel...i need a good field assistant ( i have a cracker-jack office hand)...but i told the boss, i'd rather build from the ground up than hire the wrong person...i have more time to train newbies than i have to break the bad habits of someone else...and he agrees...

i want people who will suck my brains dry trying to learn what i know, get motivated to learn more and come back and teach me something...and a DD 214 indicating honorable service is a good way to start that process...

never discount anything you learn...never...while the VC eventually executed Rocky Versace, he was able to stay alive a long time by convincing them he was a Civil Engineer, working for USAID or something like that...where did he get that notion? he was educated in general engineering at West Point...he knew plenty about engineering and was able to convince the bad guys he was who he said he was...

it seems that i have strayed way off topic here...c'est la vie, c'est le guerre, son' les femmes...