View Full Version : Elijah Craig tasting competition
The Reaper
04-13-2005, 19:30
Speaking of drinking alone, I just bought the Elijah Craig. Will report after I sample it.
Hijack in progress!
I look forward to a full report. Listen to George while you sip. Good drinkin' music!
Hard to beat the Pappy Van Winkle's 20 y/o, or the Blanton's, or the Booker's though.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
04-14-2005, 09:48
Hijack in progress!
I look forward to a full report. Listen to George while you sip. Good drinkin' music!
Hard to beat the Pappy Van Winkle's 20 y/o, or the Blanton's, or the Booker's though.
TR
Will start a new thread in the right forum when I get to it. I am thinking a side-by-side of the three you mentioned plus the EC would be appropriate, but that may be a task for a team rather than an individual.
The Reaper
04-14-2005, 10:02
Will start a new thread in the right forum when I get to it. I am thinking a side-by-side of the three you mentioned plus the EC would be appropriate, but that may be a task for a team rather than an individual.
As your Samoan Attorney, I advise you to start drinking heavily. :D
RIP.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
04-14-2005, 10:45
RIP.
Rumors of my demise have been wildly exaggerated. LOL
I think this is a team exercise. But if I can't assemble a team on a timely basis, I may have to do it myself.
The Reaper
04-14-2005, 10:58
Rumors of my demise have been wildly exaggerated. LOL
I think this is a team exercise. But if I can't assemble a team on a timely basis, I may have to do it myself.
RIP was for HST, who I quoted.
Sometimes, a man has got to do what a man has to do.
TR
Sacamuelas
04-14-2005, 16:05
I think this is a team exercise. But if I can't assemble a team on a timely basis, I may have to do it myself.
Sir, SGT NoClass reporting for assignment. RL's "SPECIAL" Team's Jr 18Drinking slot can be considered filled. haha
Heading to supply after I leave the clinic area. Elijah craig, what and what are to be sampled in this mission? :munchin
Roguish Lawyer
04-14-2005, 16:26
Sir, SGT NoClass reporting for assignment. RL's "SPECIAL" Team's Jr 18Drinking slot can be considered filled. haha
Heading to supply after I leave the clinic area. Elijah craig, what and what are to be sampled in this mission? :munchin
http://www.bardstownbourbonsociety.com/brands_elijahsingle.html
Roguish Lawyer
04-14-2005, 16:28
Hard to beat the Pappy Van Winkle's 20 y/o, or the Blanton's, or the Booker's though.
These are the others to be sampled. Good luck.
jasonglh
04-14-2005, 18:50
Any of you guys ever been to the Kentucky Bourbon festival?
I think this is a team exercise. But if I can't assemble a team on a timely basis, I may have to do it myself.
i can probably help out... :D
mumbleypeg
04-15-2005, 08:27
"If you need me , I'll be in the bar." J.Mitchell
I am now making plans to spend as much time as possible on the veranda sipping whiskey.
I feel as though I need to wear a Seersucker suit and dust off some Faulkner. This is Science after all.
:D
Roguish Lawyer
04-15-2005, 08:42
Any of you guys ever been to the Kentucky Bourbon festival?
I have not. Tell us more. :munchin
Roguish Lawyer
04-17-2005, 19:12
On December 17, 1981, President Ronald Reagan released the following statement:
Last September in my economic message I announced that we would develop a plan for dismantling the Department of Energy. In the intervening months, a group led by the Secretary of Energy developed a number of proposals to carry out that commitment.
I have selected a plan that will divide the current responsibilities of the Department of Energy between the Department of the Interior and the Department of Commerce. This would fulfill my campaign promise to make government more efficient and reduce the cost of government to the taxpayers.
Under the plan I have approved, the Interior Department will take on those functions of DOE that bear on the management of natural resources, such as supervision of the national petroleum reserves and the hydroelectric dams operated by the power marketing administrations.
The Commerce Department will be responsible for ensuring that energy is given full consideration in national economic policy; for developing plans for responding to energy supply emergencies, including our relations with international energy organizations; and for the collection of statistical data on energy.
In addition, we will establish an agency to carry out the important research programs now operated by DOE. This agency will report to me through the Secretary of Commerce and will also have responsibility for operating the atomic energy defense program that develops and produces nuclear weapons for our strategic forces.
I believe that this plan will result in a strong Federal effort in basic research in energy that avoids the excessive regulation that led me to call for dismantling DOE. Under this plan, we will limit the role of the Federal Government in energy. The government will no longer try to manage every aspect of energy supply and consumption.
I have directed that a task force composed of representatives from the White House Office of Policy Development, the Office of Management and Budget, and the Departments of Energy, Commerce, and Interior get to work immediately on the detailed legislation and plans needed to carry out the decision I made yesterday.
We will of course be consulting with the Congress on the detailed plan, which I anticipate submitting to the Congress with the fiscal year 1983 budget.
By dismantling a bureaucracy while keeping intact its essential functions, we are moving ahead with our promise to make government serve the people -- and do it more efficiently. This is a big step, but there is more to be done, and we are pledged to do it.
President Reagan unfortunately never was able to follow through on this promise. But there was another promise made that same day.
On December 17, 1981, a charred oak barrel was filled and plugged at the Elijah Craig Distillery Company in Bardstown, Kentucky. That barrel, marked with the number 1116, was then permitted to age for 18 years and bottled at the end of 1999, or perhaps early 2000.
The result is shown in the attached photograph. The fine men of the Elijah Craig Distillery Company have produced what I believe is one of the best single-barrel bourbons being offered today. It is incredibly smooth, with an oakey sweet taste (honey? caramel?) and a long, exquisite finish.
I did not try it side-by-side with anything, and I did not try it neat. Just poured it over ice and tasted. That was enough to convince me that our proposed tasting will be an event to remember. Definitely worthy of the top 5 rating we discussed earlier. And I note that it is significantly cheaper than the other three in the competition.
Looking forward to the views of others.
jasonglh
04-17-2005, 21:46
Ah sorry it took me so long to get back to you on that. Been great fishing weather here. There are so many things in my own state that I have not made it to yet but this one is high on the list of things to do. I was hoping to scratch the Knob Creek machine gun shoot off the list this year but was sick.
http://www.kybourbonfestival.com/
THE KENTUCKY BOURBON FESTIVAL
SEPTEMBER 14-18, 2005
Celebrating One of the World's Finest Spirits in the Bourbon Capital of the World.
Since 1776, the people of Bardstown, Kentucky have been making Bourbon. Their dedication to the fine art of distilling eventually gave Bardstown the title of Bourbon Capital of the World. Come celebrate this passion and history at The Kentucky Bourbon Festival.
The Kentucky Bourbon Festival gives you a weekend full of smooth Bourbon, delicious food, and great entertainment, with a healthy dose of Kentucky hospitality thrown in for good measure. From black tie galas to historical tours, there is something for all ages and interests. It's a wonderful five-day event full of activities for the whole family.
mumbleypeg
04-19-2005, 15:48
Did my sampling last night: wanted to sit on it through the day.Results as follow.
Please forgive my hyperbole; I've been drinking Whiskey.
Elijah Craig aged 18 years single barrel Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey. Barreled on 12/17/81 Barrel No. 1149.
Initially I think vanilla. The long pods from Madagascar, crushed. A quick sip reveals strong black pepper and sourdough biscuits. There are hints of buttermilk, first sour then somehow enticing. As it settles onto the tongue I taste, cinnamon toast. This is Bourbon that requires Harry Crews novels, tough fiction full of passion and failure. Rather than Seersucker, the required clothing is by Filson’s somewhat sophisticated yet evolved from welder stock. I think leather chairs, tobacco brown with that smell of leather. At 18 a college freshman, however, this is Bourbon with a sense of accomplishment.
I don’t find this a fussy drink at all, very straight forward and drinkable. An excellent conversation Whiskey.
Elijah Craig aged 18 years single barrel Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey. Barreled on 12/17/81 Barrel No. 1149.
Initially I think vanilla. The long pods from Madagascar, crushed. A quick sip reveals strong black pepper and sourdough biscuits. There are hints of buttermilk, first sour then somehow enticing. As it settles onto the tongue I taste, cinnamon toast. This is Bourbon that requires Harry Crews novels, tough fiction full of passion and failure. Rather than Seersucker, the required clothing is by Filson’s somewhat sophisticated yet evolved from welder stock. I think leather chairs, tobacco brown with that smell of leather. At 18 a college freshman, however, this is Bourbon with a sense of accomplishment.
sampling is not drinking the whole bottle at one sitting... :confused:
it sounds like you did your taste test during breakfast... :eek:
Roguish Lawyer
04-19-2005, 22:52
sampling is not drinking the whole bottle at one sitting... :confused:
it sounds like you did your taste test during breakfast... :eek:
LMAO -- says who? Nice job, mumbley. This may be why he mumbles . . . :D
mumbleypeg
04-20-2005, 11:10
My pour was not nearly as generous as the whopping inaugural tumbler of RL's.
"it sounds like you did your taste test during breakfast...". You say this like it's a bad thing.
You should see my review of Bookers..I was something along the lines of Pancakes and Maple syrup, on fire.
I look forward to more breakfast beverages. :D
"it sounds like you did your taste test during breakfast...". You say this like it's a bad thing.
i did not...not every one taste tests whisky with breakfast...unless they eat breakfast before retiring for the day... :p
Bravo1-3
05-12-2005, 00:38
Bump
I have just returned from an evening on the bosses tab, and noticed a bottle of this behind the bar. While it did not remind me of eating breakfast in a leather chair ( :D ), or a Henry Crews novel, it definietly is a fine Bourbon.
It has a warm and inviting bouquet that didn't try to argue with my nose it was very friendly. It was not a sweet smell, but it wasn't brash or overpowering. While I enjoy the TASTE of bookers, the smell of it causes my throat to itch. This did nothing of the sort for me, and I knew I was in for something very special.
It was very smooth, and at the same time, very robust. Other brands in this price range tend to be betty OR brutte. This was a nice compromise that complemented the Onyx Lonsdales we were smoking perfectly. It is something to be savored rather than simply "downed". Very enjoyable. It did leave sort of a bitter-sweet caramel taste in my mouth when I was finished, but I can't imagine a better bourbon for the price. If I can find a bottle, I will certainly add it to the collection.
Also sampled this evening:
McCarthys Oregon Single Malt: Good, but wait for a reserve issue. It will be much better when they let it age for 10-12 years, and it's only a 5 year old company.
Heaven Hill 28 YO: It doesn't get much better, but a tad expensive.
Pappy Van Winkles 23 yo Family Reserve - Perfection in a bottle, and worth every penny.
mumbleypeg
05-12-2005, 00:48
It is always good to drink on an expense account. Onyx Lonsdales, perhaps a better choice than leather couch. I will be chasing down the Van Winkles.
Roguish Lawyer
05-12-2005, 01:05
Pappy Van Winkles 23 yo Family Reserve - Perfection in a bottle, and worth every penny.
I wonder if anyone else has tried this . . . :munchin
The Reaper
05-12-2005, 07:29
I wonder if anyone else has tried this . . . :munchin
First post on this thread mentions it, and there are pics somewhere as well.
The PVW 20 y/o is outstanding, I cannot see how the 23 y/o could be any better.
PVW, the ne plus ultra of bourbons.
I highly recommend it for special occasions.
Unless you are wealthy, like lawyers, in which case you should drink it every day while you smoke Cohibas.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
05-12-2005, 09:30
Unless you are wealthy, like lawyers, in which case you should drink it every day while you smoke Cohibas.
I wish. I did buy a bottle, but I am waiting for a special occasion to open it.
The Reaper
05-12-2005, 10:47
I wish. I did buy a bottle, but I am waiting for a special occasion to open it.
You could be hit by a bus tomorrow, and never have tried it.
That a special enough occasion?
Get a copy of Tim McGraw's "Live Like You Were Dying" and crack it open.
TR
mumbleypeg
05-12-2005, 13:13
I wish. I did buy a bottle, but I am waiting for a special occasion to open it.
Sunset is coming!
mffjm8509
05-12-2005, 14:23
I wish. I did buy a bottle, but I am waiting for a special occasion to open it.
You're killing me brother...........
open it and drink man!
mp
Roguish Lawyer
05-12-2005, 14:28
Jeez, twist my arm. Tell you what, my kid is having surgery next Tuesday. I'll open it to celebrate good results when it's over, OK?
Bravo1-3
05-12-2005, 14:49
You're not going to be sorry. That glass was the best $30 (of someone elses money) I've ever spent :D
The Reaper
10-07-2005, 18:16
Bump.
Where is this report, Counsellor?
Inquiring minds want to know.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
10-07-2005, 18:38
Bump.
Where is this report, Counsellor?
Inquiring minds want to know.
TR
I have scheduled the tasting for Sunday, October 23, 2005. A surprise judge will be assisting me.
Roguish Lawyer
10-24-2005, 07:30
I have scheduled the tasting for Sunday, October 23, 2005. A surprise judge will be assisting me.
The tasting was completed as scheduled. Remarks to follow.
Roguish Lawyer
10-24-2005, 22:58
Whiskies sampled:
Booker's
Black Maple Hill 18 y/o rye
Blanton's
Elijah Craig 18 y/o
Jack Daniel's Single Barrel
Noah's Mill 15 y/o
Pappy Van Winkle's 20 y/o
One of the two guest judges is a member of this board. If he chooses to identify himself, I'll let him start the discussion. :munchin
The Reaper
10-24-2005, 22:58
The tasting was completed as scheduled. Remarks to follow.
I think that we tried the best available, and picked several favorites.
The Elijah Craig has me worried now though.
I would put the Pappy VW at the top, the Booker's a close second.
Blanton's would have been third, I would rank Knob Creek (based on experience) just after that. The Black Maple Hill was decent.
The others were distant memories, but not remarkably good.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
10-24-2005, 23:15
Whiskies sampled:
Booker's
Black Maple Hill 18 y/o rye
Blanton's
Elijah Craig 18 y/o
Jack Daniel's Single Barrel
Noah's Mill 15 y/o
Pappy Van Winkle's 20 y/o
Yeah TR, the Elijah Craig was downright bizarre. I posted earlier about how much I liked the last bottle I had, but this bottle was radically different. The last bottle was sweet and sort of caramel-flavored, but this one was a little bit harsh (relative to the others we tried) and really peppery. Now this is single-barrel bourbon, so maybe it was a bad barrel or something. But I find it bizarre that two bottles of the same brand would taste so different. I don't know which one I'll get if I buy another bottle -- I'd definitely want to buy more of the first, but not the second. So EC was unanimously LAST in the tasting.
The PVW was consensus #1. Duh.
I really liked the Noah's Mill. I believe it was the first one we tried, so it had the disadvantage of completely sober tasters, but it was very smooth with a distinctive peppery taste. High proof, like the Booker's. I will not let the rest go to waste. The others did not care for it as much as I did.
The Booker's and Blanton's were consistent with what one would expect. I like both a great deal, and they were among the better contestants IMO. I prefer the Blanton's between these two, but I think that's just a personal preference.
I liked the Black Maple Hill. This was the only rye we tried, and I thought it tasted like rye. Very smooth and pretty good, but probably a peg below the Blanton's and Booker's.
The JD Single Barrel did not draw rave reviews from the guest judges, but I liked it. This was the only Tennessee whiskey we tried, and it has a distinctive flavor as a result. I might drink it instead of some of the more expensive brands we tried based on mood or price, but I don't think it is better than any of the others except for the Elijah Craig, which was awful.
No photos were taken. Sorry about that. :)
Roguish Lawyer
10-24-2005, 23:25
I just read the whole thread again, and I'm thinking the Elijah Craig was just a bad bottle. Should I sue them? LOL :D
The Reaper
10-24-2005, 23:29
I just read the whole thread again, and I'm thinking the Elijah Craig was just a bad bottle. Should I sue them? LOL :D
I agree. And I bought a bottle as a gift that I would be afraid to give without testing first.
Do you have access to representation? A class action, perhaps?
TR
Roguish Lawyer
10-24-2005, 23:31
Do you have access to representation? A class action, perhaps?
LOL -- I do, at steeply discounted rates!
I see that one of our law students is reading the thread. Perhaps he can explain why a class likely would not be certified in a case like this . . . :munchin
brewmonkey
10-25-2005, 08:18
RL
On the Black Maple Hill you mention that you tasted the Rye. Being that it was the only Rye in the bunch I am interested in your thoughts on the flavor the Rye added. Is it something that detracted from the overall presentation and was the cause for your rating it lower then the others or was that because it was just a tad inferior overall?
I am also curious if you have any information on the types of wood that was used for the barrels the spirits were aged in as well as any type of treatment the barrels had prior to racking. As we all know Whiskey takes it color from the barrels as well the type of wood and treatment it has affects the finished products flavor. Oak, especially American contains Vanillin.
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 08:21
On the Black Maple Hill you mention that you tasted the Rye. Being that it was the only Rye in the bunch I am interested in your thoughts on the flavor the Rye added. Is it something that detracted from the overall presentation and was the cause for your rating it lower then the others or was that because it was just a tad inferior overall?
Tasted a little bit like rye bread! I like rye bread. It was just a little bit inferior to the PVW, Booker's and Blanton's, but still quite excellent. I'll drink it any time.
I am also curious if you have any information on the types of wood that was used for the barrels the spirits were aged in as well as any type of treatment the barrels had prior to racking. As we all know Whiskey takes it color from the barrels as well the type of wood and treatment it has affects the finished products flavor. Oak, especially American contains Vanillin.
I don't know for sure, but I would expect that all of them were aged in oak barrels. The web sites for the distilleries probably have more information.
The Reaper
10-25-2005, 08:40
I believe that charred oak is required for bourbon.
TR
I see that one of our law students is reading the thread. Perhaps he can explain why a class likely would not be certified in a case like this . . . :munchin
I don't think that was me, but may I take a shot if he doesn't? :)
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 12:58
I don't think that was me, but may I take a shot if he doesn't? :)
Sure, but he's probably got a whole brief written by now. Just afraid to post it. :munchin LOL
I had a friend recommend a rye with a beer chaser. he said the combination was excellent. I tried it and it is.
The Reaper
10-25-2005, 13:10
I have to say that after enjoying the hospitality of RL the other night and meeting his family (including the lovely Catwoman), that we here at PS.com appear to have cornered the market on the best legal minds in the country.
Most of the time, you can't even tell they are lawyers.:D
TR
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 13:18
I have to say that after enjoying the hospitality of RL the other night and meeting his family (including the lovely Catwoman), that we here at PS.com appear to have cornered the market on the best legal minds in the country.
Most of the time, you can't even tell they are lawyers.:D
TR
Awwwwwwwwww, you just want more free booze. :D
LOL It was our pleasure.
Bravo1-3
10-25-2005, 13:54
I thought I replied. But oddly enough, I had purchased a GOOD bottle of Elijah Craig to warm up for Fridays festivities, and left the reply on "preview".
FRCP Rule 23(A)(1) "the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable". While I'm sure you and TR have lots of class, you are not numerous enough to be A class :D
Since a Class Action is basically a representative sample acting for others, and there are only two of you, this isn't a class action. It is a standard issue tort.
Now, if you were to identify a few hundred others victims...
Then there's the whole "matter of opinion" thing and lack of real damages... but down there in California you guys can 7 figures for Pain and Suffering and Mental Anguish claims :D
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 13:56
I thought I replied. But oddly enough, I had purchased a GOOD bottle of Elijah Craig to warm up for Fridays festivities, and left the reply on "preview".
FRCP Rule 23(A)(1) "the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable". While I'm sure you and TR have lots of class, you are not numerous enough to be A class :D
Since a Class Action is basically a representative sample acting for others, and there are only two of you, this isn't a class action. It is a standard issue tort.
Now, if you were to identify a few hundred others victims...
Then there's the whole "matter of opinion" thing and lack of real damages... but down there in California you guys can 7 figures for Pain and Suffering and Mental Anguish claims :D
Strike one!
Bravo1-3
10-25-2005, 14:04
Am I on the right rule?
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 14:16
Am I on the right rule?
Do the best you can.
The Reaper
10-25-2005, 14:19
Do the best you can.
LMAO!
Classic SF reply, from a lawyer.
TR
Is there a question of law or fact that needs to be resolved? I don't remember seeing Elijah Craig advertised as having either peppery or caramely notes, so it's unclear to me what they did to injure you merely by causing you to be disappointed...
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 14:46
Is there a question of law or fact that needs to be resolved? I don't remember seeing Elijah Craig advertised as having either peppery or caramely notes, so it's unclear to me what they did to injure you merely by causing you to be disappointed...
Is that your final answer?
Is that your final answer?
My only answer, I'm not a lawyer! :)
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 14:49
My only answer, I'm not a lawyer! :)
That's obvious. LOL
You didn't answer the right question, but you are headed in the right direction, sort of.
That's obvious. LOL
Was it my lack of a prehensile tail that gave me away? :confused: :D
Okay, my second guess has to do with representativeness. I'm not sure what sort of group you and TR are representative of, but it's probably not the wider class of average bourbon drinkers. Your tastes are probably too refined, your standards too demanding.
Can I have a cookie?
Roguish Lawyer
10-25-2005, 17:02
Okay, my second guess has to do with representativeness. I'm not sure what sort of group you and TR are representative of, but it's probably not the wider class of average bourbon drinkers. Your tastes are probably too refined, your standards too demanding.
Can I have a cookie?
Confer with vsvo and bravo1-3 and get back to me.
Roguish Lawyer
11-11-2005, 12:20
Maybe it would be a little hard to use the "Q" word, but have our law students given up?
Not me. I haven't heard from the guys, so I didn't want to impose in case they are working on it.
Roguish Lawyer
11-11-2005, 13:52
Not me. I haven't heard from the guys, so I didn't want to impose in case they are working on it.
:rolleyes:
I am waiting . . .
LOL, OK, no more lame excuses. Let me go review my Civ Pro notes...
We didn’t cover class actions in depth in Civ Pro, which was fine, since regular joinder was enough to confuse the h*ll out of everyone. Nevertheless, I think I can give an answer.:)
First, we must review the text of the rule. As noted by B1-3, class actions are governed by Rule 23 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Most states have class action statutes, and there are issues of jurisdiction and due process, but I’ll focus on the rule governing federal courts.
To achieve certification, a class action must meet ALL of the requirements of Rule 23(a), AND fit into one of the three types of Rule 23(b).
(a) Prerequisites to a Class Action. One or more members of a class may sue or be sued as representative parties on behalf of all only if (1) the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impractical, (2) there are questions of law or fact common to the class, (3) the claims or defenses of the representative parties are typical of the claims or defenses of the class, and (4) the representative parties will fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class.
FED.R.CIV.P. 23(a).
These 23(a) requirements are commonly referred to as numerosity, commonality, typicality and adequacy of representation.
I will paraphrase Rule 23(b) for our purposes. Category 1 is technical, and has to do with the risk of inconsistent results if the class members were to litigate their claims separately. Category 2 covers civil rights claims, and is limited to cases where the plaintiffs are seeking injunctive or declaratory relief, not money damages. Category 3 is the one with which most people are familiar. It is the catch-all category, and covers all claims not captured in categories 1 and 2, as well as those in which the plaintiffs are seeking mainly money damages. This category covers the continuum of cases from multiple small claims on one end (e.g., a million customers ripped off by $1, improperly charged fees, etc.), to the “mass tort” on the other end (e.g., asbestos, tobacco, airplane crash, etc.)
Applying the rule to the few facts I can glean from this thread, the main issue is with commonality, although there are potential issues with numerosity as well.
NUMEROSITY
There is actually no threshold requirement for the number of plaintiffs required to form a class. While it’s true that small classes will most likely fail to receive certification, the key determination is whether the judge believes regular joinder would be “impractical.”
Courts have certified classes of 14, as well as denied classes of 15 for being too small. In the present case, we have yet to identify the potential class members, and that ties in with the issues in commonality.
COMMONALITY
As jatx mentioned, we must identify a question of law and fact; more importantly, that question must be shared among the class. In other words, the characteristics which the plaintiffs share must matter in terms of the substantive law on which the cause of action is based. Thus, if every plaintiff had to individually prove his/her case to establish liability, there would be no commonality.
The courts actually construe this requirement very liberally; the common question doesn’t even need to predominate. The fact that one or two class members have individual questions would not preclude commonality.
CONCLUSION
We need to identify a question of fact and law for the representative plaintiff (TR), then identify other class members who share that question such that mere joinder of all the claims would be “impractical.” Because we have not yet done so, the class would not be certified.
Roguish Lawyer
11-11-2005, 18:16
What other requirements exist? Which ones apply here?
Bravo1-3
11-11-2005, 18:25
Here's the entire rule:
Rule 23. Class Actions
(a) Prerequisites to a Class Action.
One or more members of a class may sue or be sued as representative parties on behalf of all only if
(1) the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable,
(2) there are questions of law or fact common to the class,
(3) the claims or defenses of the representative parties are typical of the claims or defenses of the class, and
(4) the representative parties will fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class.
(b) Class Actions Maintainable.
An action may be maintained as a class action if the prerequisites of subdivision (a) are satisfied, and in addition:
(1) the prosecution of separate actions by or against individual members of the class would create a risk of
(A) inconsistent or varying adjudications with respect to individual members of the class which would establish incompatible standards of conduct for the party opposing the class, or
(B) adjudications with respect to individual members of the class which would as a practical matter be dispositive of the interests of the other members not parties to the adjudications or substantially impair or impede their ability to protect their interests; or
(2) the party opposing the class has acted or refused to act on grounds generally applicable to the class, thereby making appropriate final injunctive relief or corresponding declaratory relief with respect to the class as a whole; or
(3) the court finds that the questions of law or fact common to the members of the class predominate over any questions affecting only individual members, and that a class action is superior to other available methods for the fair and efficient adjudication of the controversy. The matters pertinent to the findings include:
(A) the interest of members of the class in individually controlling the prosecution or defense of separate actions;
(B) the extent and nature of any litigation concerning the controversy already commenced by or against members of the class;
(C) the desirability or undesirability of concentrating the litigation of the claims in the particular forum;
(D) the difficulties likely to be encountered in the management of a class action.
(c) Determining by Order Whether to Certify a Class Action; Appointing Class Counsel; Notice and Membership in Class; Judgment; Multiple Classes and Subclasses.
(1) (A) When a person sues or is sued as a representative of a class, the court must — at an early practicable time — determine by order whether to certify the action as a class action..
(B) An order certifying a class action must define the class and the class claims, issues, or defenses, and must appoint class counsel under Rule 23(g).
(C) An order under Rule 23(c)(1) may be altered or amended before final judgment.
(2) (A) For any class certified under Rule 23(b)(1) or (2), the court may direct appropriate notice to the class.
(B) For any class certified under Rule 23(b)(3), the court must direct to class members the best notice practicable under the circumstances, including individual notice to all members who can be identified through reasonable effort. The notice must concisely and clearly state in plain, easily understood language:
the nature of the action,
the definition of the class certified,
the class claims, issues, or defenses,
that a class member may enter an appearance through counsel if the member so desires,
that the court will exclude from the class any member who requests exclusion, stating when and how members may elect to be excluded, and
the binding effect of a class judgment on class members under Rule 23(c)(3).
(3) The judgment in an action maintained as a class action under subdivision (b)(1) or (b)(2), whether or not favorable to the class, shall include and describe those whom the court finds to be members of the class. The judgment in an action maintained as a class action under subdivision (b)(3), whether or not favorable to the class, shall include and specify or describe those to whom the notice provided in subdivision (c)(2) was directed, and who have not requested exclusion, and whom the court finds to be members of the class.
(4) When appropriate
(A) an action may be brought or maintained as a class action with respect to particular issues, or
(B) a class may be divided into subclasses and each subclass treated as a class, and the provisions of this rule shall then be construed and applied accordingly.
(d) Orders in Conduct of Actions.
In the conduct of actions to which this rule applies, the court may make appropriate orders:
(1) determining the course of proceedings or prescribing measures to prevent undue repetition or complication in the presentation of evidence or argument;
(2) requiring, for the protection of the members of the class or otherwise for the fair conduct of the action, that notice be given in such manner as the court may direct to some or all of the members of any step in the action, or of the proposed extent of the judgment, or of the opportunity of members to signify whether they consider the representation fair and adequate, to intervene and present claims or defenses, or otherwise to come into the action;
(3) imposing conditions on the representative parties or on intervenors;
(4) requiring that the pleadings be amended to eliminate therefrom allegations as to representation of absent persons, and that the action proceed accordingly;
(5) dealing with similar procedural matters. The orders may be combined with an order under Rule 16, and may be altered or amended as may be desirable from time to time.
(e) Settlement, Voluntary Dismissal, or Compromise.
(1) (A) The court must approve any settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise of the claims, issues, or defenses of a certified class.
(B) The court must direct notice in a reasonable manner to all class members who would be bound by a proposed settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise.
(C) The court may approve a settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise that would bind class members only after a hearing and on finding that the settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise is fair, reasonable, and adequate.
(2) The parties seeking approval of a settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise under Rule 23(e)(1) must file a statement identifying any agreement made in connection with the proposed settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise.
(3) In an action previously certified as a class action under Rule 23(b)(3), the court may refuse to approve a settlement unless it affords a new opportunity to request exclusion to individual class members who had an earlier opportunity to request exclusion but did not do so.
(4) (A) Any class member may object to a proposed settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise that requires court approval under Rule 23(e)(1)(A).
(B) An objection made under Rule 23(e)(4)(A) may be withdrawn only with the court's approval.
(f) Appeals.
A court of appeals may in its discretion permit an appeal from an order of a district court granting or denying class action certification under this rule if application is made to it within ten days after entry of the order. An appeal does not stay proceedings in the district court unless the district judge or the court of appeals so orders.
(g) Class Counsel.
(1) Appointing Class Counsel.
(A) Unless a statute provides otherwise, a court that certifies a class must appoint class counsel.
(B) An attorney appointed to serve as class counsel must fairly and adequately represent the interests of the class.
(C) In appointing class counsel, the court
(i) must consider:
the work counsel has done in identifying or investigating potential claims in the action,
counsel's experience in handling class actions, other complex litigation, and claims of the type asserted in the action, counsel's knowledge of the applicable law, and the resources counsel will commit to representing the class;
(ii) may consider any other matter pertinent to counsel's ability to fairly and adequately represent the interests of the class;
(iii) may direct potential class counsel to provide information on any subject pertinent to the appointment and to propose terms for attorney fees and nontaxable costs; and
(iv) may make further orders in connection with the appointment.
(2) Appointment Procedure.
(A) The court may designate interim counsel to act on behalf of the putative class before determining whether to certify the action as a class action.
(B) When there is one applicant for appointment as class counsel, the court may appoint that applicant only if the applicant is adequate under Rule 23(g)(1)(B) and (C). If more than one adequate applicant seeks appointment as class counsel, the court must appoint the applicant best able to represent the interests of the class.
(C) The order appointing class counsel may include provisions about the award of attorney fees or nontaxable costs under Rule 23(h).
(h) Attorney Fees Award.
In an action certified as a class action, the court may award reasonable attorney fees and nontaxable costs authorized by law or by agreement of the parties as follows:
Bravo1-3
11-11-2005, 18:26
(1) Motion for Award of Attorney Fees.
A claim for an award of attorney fees and nontaxable costs must be made by motion under Rule 54(d)(2), subject to the provisions of this subdivision, at a time set by the court. Notice of the motion must be served on all parties and, for motions by class counsel, directed to class members in a reasonable manner.
(2) Objections to Motion.
A class member, or a party from whom payment is sought, may object to the motion.
(3) Hearing and Findings.
The court may hold a hearing and must find the facts and state its conclusions of law on the motion under Rule 52(a).
(4) Reference to Special Master or Magistrate Judge.
The court may refer issues related to the amount of the award to a special master or to a magistrate judge as provided in Rule 54(d)(2)(D).
What other requirements exist? Which ones apply here?
We have one allegedly bad bottle potentially causing harm or injury to one person, which calls for further detailed factual analysis of this individual situation. Unless there is a general question, the resolution of which would bind all the claims, such as a defect in the distillation process, we would be left with individual issues to litigate. Each claim would require factual analysis on a case-by-case basis to determine why the plaintiff perceived his/her respective bottle to be bad, frustrating the efficiency goals of a class action.
Because the individual issues here would seem to overwhelm an indeterminate general question, the commonality requirement would not be met, and the claim would not be certified as a class action.
Roguish Lawyer
01-25-2006, 14:20
I really liked the Noah's Mill. I believe it was the first one we tried, so it had the disadvantage of completely sober tasters, but it was very smooth with a distinctive peppery taste. High proof, like the Booker's. I will not let the rest go to waste. The others did not care for it as much as I did.
I poured some more of this last night, and I regret to report that I did not care for it at all. During the tasting we did a while ago, we just had a little taste of each. The Noah's Mill was interesting because it was so peppery. I found last night, however, that it was not suitable for consumption in the quantity I required. The pepper really burned, and I ended up mixing in some Sprite so as not to waste the alcohol.
I don't see myself buying more of this.
I found last night, however, that it was not suitable for consumption in the quantity I required. and what quantity might that be...?:confused:
Roguish Lawyer
01-25-2006, 14:29
and what quantity might that be...?:confused:
I poured about four fingers. Well, one finger if it's from Harsey's hand . . . :D
brewmonkey
01-25-2006, 15:10
During last nights tasting was it from a previously opened bottle or was this a new sealed bottle?
Roguish Lawyer
01-25-2006, 15:57
During last nights tasting was it from a previously opened bottle or was this a new sealed bottle?
Same bottle.
brewmonkey
01-26-2006, 16:26
Rye already has a pretty peppery/spicy component to it and I am wondering if oxidation would bring out that flavor even more in a bourbon.
It is hard to compare what I saw in the brewhouse to distilled spirits as they are very different but I know that the Rye we made, 40% Rye & 60% Malted Barley, while peppery out of the fermentation was much more so 3-5 weeks later after the effects of oxidation had taken hold and more so as time passed. It got to the point it would be almost too spicey past 12 weeks in the brite tanks so we had to cut back the Rye to 20% or so to get what we were looking for.
Of course this was all just our perception and I have no solid empirical data to back this up.
I poured some more of this last night, and I regret to report that I did not care for it at all. During the tasting we did a while ago, we just had a little taste of each. The Noah's Mill was interesting because it was so peppery. I found last night, however, that it was not suitable for consumption in the quantity I required. The pepper really burned, and I ended up mixing in some Sprite so as not to waste the alcohol.
I don't see myself buying more of this.
Thanks for the update, RL. We were going to buy a bottle of this for a good friend who was recently promoted. I think we'll pick something else.
The Reaper
01-27-2006, 08:59
Thanks for the update, RL. We were going to buy a bottle of this for a good friend who was recently promoted. I think we'll pick something else.
IMHO, on the top shelf, Pappy Van Winkle's.
The Booker's and Blanton's.
For the more budget minded, Knob Creek would be my recommendation.
All excellent bourbons.
HTH.
TR
IMHO, on the top shelf, Pappy Van Winkle's.
The Booker's and Blanton's.
For the more budget minded, Knob Creek would be my recommendation.
All excellent bourbons.
HTH.
TR
Concur with your exact ordering. I have had Elijah Craig three times now, each time from a different bottle, and each time it tasted completely different.
IMHO, on the top shelf, Pappy Van Winkle's.
The Booker's and Blanton's.
For the more budget minded, Knob Creek would be my recommendation.
All excellent bourbons.
HTH.
TR
Thanks, TR.
We drink Scotch and Irish whiskey, but an unfortunate incident in college turned the other half away from bourbon. Of course, that incident involved some very cheap bourbon so we might have to try again...
Roguish Lawyer
01-27-2006, 16:40
I have had Elijah Craig three times now, each time from a different bottle, and each time it tasted completely different.
IMO, a reason not to buy it. Consistency is important. Not so much in having it taste the same every time, but in having it taste good!
On December 17, 1981, President Ronald Reagan released the following statement:
President Reagan unfortunately never was able to follow through on this promise. But there was another promise made that same day.
On December 17, 1981, a charred oak barrel was filled and plugged at the Elijah Craig Distillery Company in Bardstown, Kentucky. That barrel, marked with the number 1116, was then permitted to age for 18 years and bottled at the end of 1999, or perhaps early 2000.
The result is shown in the attached photograph. The fine men of the Elijah Craig Distillery Company have produced what I believe is one of the best single-barrel bourbons being offered today. It is incredibly smooth, with an oakey sweet taste (honey? caramel?) and a long, exquisite finish.
I did not try it side-by-side with anything, and I did not try it neat. Just poured it over ice and tasted. That was enough to convince me that our proposed tasting will be an event to remember. Definitely worthy of the top 5 rating we discussed earlier. And I note that it is significantly cheaper than the other three in the competition.
Looking forward to the views of others.
Just got home from an evening with EC as the main aperitif.:o
Am feeling very "randy" as they say!...hmmmm:p
Happy Holidays!
Holly
The Reaper
12-19-2011, 20:43
Holy necropost!
After five more years of sampling, I would change my rating to add Woodford Reserve as equal to the Booker's and Blantons, and at a much lower price. Definitely better than the Knob Creek.
Some of Woodford's limited runs, like the Sweet Mash of a few years back, can almost equal the Pappy's.
Bottoms up!
TR
Roguish Lawyer
12-20-2011, 15:06
Holy necropost!
After five more years of sampling, I would change my rating to add Woodford Reserve as equal to the Booker's and Blantons, and at a much lower price. Definitely better than the Knob Creek.
Some of Woodford's limited runs, like the Sweet Mash of a few years back, can almost equal the Pappy's.
Bottoms up!
TR
You cannot possibly be serious, or perhaps you've had a bunch of it already today. BLASPHEMER!
The Reaper
12-20-2011, 19:08
You cannot possibly be serious, or perhaps you've had a bunch of it already today. BLASPHEMER!
Not yet, but that is a good idea.
Salud, abogado!
Others who I have offered it to have responded positively. Obviously, tastes vary.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
12-21-2011, 01:01
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/americanum/chasing-pappy
Check this film project out . . .
Holy necropost!
After five more years of sampling, I would change my rating to add Woodford Reserve as equal to the Booker's and Blantons, and at a much lower price. Definitely better than the Knob Creek.
Some of Woodford's limited runs, like the Sweet Mash of a few years back, can almost equal the Pappy's.
Bottoms up!
TR
For the Super Bowl Party...originally the recipe calls for JD, but am going to try it with Woodford Reserve this year.
Serves 6-8 as an appetizer
2 lbs Hillshire Farms Lit'l Smokies
1 cup barbecue sauce
1/2 cup Woodford Reserve
1 tablespoon brown sugar
Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
In a mixing bowl, combine barbecue sauce, whiskey and brown sugar. Stir until combined.
Spread sausages across the bottom of a baking pan in one layer.
Pour sauce over the sausages.
Cook in oven for approximately 75 minutes. Stir sausages in sauce every 15 minutes during cooking.
Serve
(Variation for a richer, thicker sauce, try doubling the sauce recipe and cook for an additional 15 minutes to ensure the sauce thickens.)
http://cocktails.about.com/od/cookingwithspirits/a/whiskey_sausage.htm
rsmith569
01-13-2012, 07:05
There is a new KY distillery being built in Newport, KY. Just FYI
http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20110830/NEWS0103/108310338/Party-Source-plans-add-bourbon-distillery
Elijah Craig 18 year single barrel is the best by far, blantons is a close second.