P47 Video !!

[Ambush Master]

Here's a link to some really neat film footage !!

http://airpowerstock.moorecastsites.com/upload_user/P47.wmv

Enjoy .

[vsvo]

I enjoyed that! Thanks AM.

[aricbcool]

Very cool footage! Thanks! :munchin

[JMH85]

Ambush Master,

Thanks for the film. Those are some beautiful birds.

JMH85

[EX-Gold Falcon]

That was a awesome clip!

Talk about seeing the whites of their eyes. Pilots back then really had to get close and dirty; and actually see the affects of their works...


Travis

[The Reaper]

That was a awesome clip!

Talk about seeing the whites of their eyes. Pilots back then really had to get close and dirty; and actually see the affects of their works...

Travis

You think an A-10 pilot has too much stand-off?

TR

[Sdiver]

AM....thanks for that film. The 47 was my favorite fighter to come out of War II. There were some great shots of my favorite model of the 47 too. The B and C "razorback" models.

[brewmonkey]

Excellent video.

[Kyobanim]

I want one of those

[jatx]

Very cool, thanks!

[Surgicalcric]

Great video AM. Thank you very much.

Crip

[Gypsy]

Awesome clip AM...thanks!

[EX-Gold Falcon]

You think an A-10 pilot has too much stand-off?

TR

A 30mm cannon is a spear compared to the .50 cal "knives" those planes were equipped with! :D

Remember reading somewhere that the average engagment range during the Battle of Britain was under 300 yards. That's a freakin knife fight!

Travis

[The Reaper]

A 30mm cannon is a spear compared to the .50 cal "knives" those planes were equipped with! :D

Remember reading somewhere that the average engagment range during the Battle of Britain was under 300 yards. That's a freakin knife fight!

Travis

I respectfully disagree with your comments that all pilots today are removed from the effects of their works.

I would submit that an A-10 pilot sees plenty of what he does, from a fairly close range. If you do not agree, I recommend that you check out the battle damage that they have taken, if you are catching 7.62x39 fire with your aircraft, you are pretty close, IMHO.

Cobras and Apaches (less missile shots) are fairly close as well.

TR

[lksteve]

A 30mm cannon is a spear compared to the .50 cal "knives" those planes were equipped with!
hell, there's a bayonet stud on a GAU 8...

[brewmonkey]

There is something about propeller driven fighters that is just kick ass.

[jbour13]

I like seeing the heroes of yesteryear in action. Motivates me and makes me proud to wear the red white and blue.

Thanks for sharing AM

[EX-Gold Falcon]

I respectfully disagree with your comments that all pilots today are removed from the effects of their works.

I would submit that an A-10 pilot sees plenty of what he does, from a fairly close range. If you do not agree, I recommend that you check out the battle damage that they have taken, if you are catching 7.62x39 fire with your aircraft, you are pretty close, IMHO.

Cobras and Apaches (less missile shots) are fairly close as well.

TR

While the A-10 and the AH-64 are the exception, most modern aircraft use stand off weapons whenever possible.

It's somewhat apples to oranges here. Pilots of that era (non-bombers) obviously did not have the weapons, speed, armor, nor nav-systems of today. Flying by the seat of their pants was the order of the day.

That's the point I was commenting on.


Travis

[CommoGeek]

I see some of the gun camera footage shot by A-10's here in OEF. Half is using bombs (smart or dumb) and the other half is rockets or 30mm. Other than LGB's the A-10's are not carrying JDAMs or any other stand off weapons. The LGB shots aren't a typical "lob" either, the "LG" part is used to make it more accurate since troops are usually in close proximity. FWIW, the bombs are 500LB.

I cannot speak for other airframes in OEF or anything in OIF.

[lksteve]

Other than LGB's the A-10's are not carrying JDAMs or any other stand off weapons.

correct me if i'm wrong, but the A10 can be fitted with a Maverick, which does have a stand off of 7 miles...i recall that Warthog pilots, bless their pointed little heads, did not like Mavericks...

[The Reaper]

correct me if i'm wrong, but the A10 can be fitted with a Maverick, which does have a stand off of 7 miles...

True.

He said that they were not carrying them, not that they couldn't carry them.

I probably have over 100 hours watching them work on OP 5 when I was on Coleman. A C-130 has a higher top speed.

Those boys like to get down and dirty in the weeds.

Do you think this damage was collected by fkying high and fast?

Go check out the site:

http://www.pats-world.com/gulfwar/abdr-home.htm

TR

[lksteve]

Those boys like to get down and dirty in the weeds.



for the most part, the A10 jocks i worked with while i was a GLO were good guys...there were a few that took A10s until they could get a shot at an F15 or F16, but by and large they were guys that understood the nature of warfare a little better than the fast mover pilots i worked with...

[The Reaper]

Next one, recent damage, OIF.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-10-pics.htm

Go to the bottom of the page.

TR

[Peregrino]

Isn't that the one with the female pilot? I remember the PAO types making a big deal out of that when it happened. To her credit I understand she was pretty cool about the whole thing. Not to mention having done a good job getting it home so they could fix it and send it back out to kick more a**.

[The Reaper]

Yep.

TR

[CommoGeek]

Mavs are in the inventory and occasionally I see them out, but generally they are not used. I do not know if it is a cost issue, an accuracy issue, pilots don’t like them, availability, or what.

The female pilot mentioned above, “Killer Chick”, is now a flight lead and back for her second tour as we speak.

[Peregrino]

Mavs are in the inventory and occasionally I see them out, but generally they are not used. I do not know if it is a cost issue, an accuracy issue, pilots don’t like them, availability, or what.

The female pilot mentioned above, “Killer Chick”, is now a flight lead and back for her second tour as we speak.

Bully for her! There's something about Hadji being sent to his reward by a "chick" (I smiled when I typed it!) that appeals to my sense of humor. Makes you wonder how the "Virgins" are going to recieve him. A-10's rule. They are the direct descendant of the P-47s that started this thread. Just my .02 - Peregrino

[CommoGeek]

The A-1 Skyraider, "Sandy" from Vietnam, was another great CAS platform.

I'd like to think the JSF will measure up, but time will tell. The only real shortcoming of the A-10 is a lack of long haul comms. That has changed to an extent, but the current measure isn't perfect.

The P-47 could take a tremendous amount of punishment and keep flying but the lack of range and manuverability made it a CAS platform once sufficient numbers of P-51's were in the ETO.

I just hope our country never forgets that you need strategic air and tactical air, not one or the other.

[Peregrino]

I just hope our country never forgets that you need strategic air and tactical air, not one or the other.

Amen Brother! Actually, they're not likely to forget the strategic/tactical stuff. It's the CAS that always gets lost when they fight for the next generation air superiority fighter or stealth capable infiltration bomber. Unfortunately the fighter jocks that run the Air Farce tend to forget about the mere mortals slugging it out on the ground. Look at how many times they've talked about getting rid of the A-10 over the last 20+ years. I think the only people that love that plane are it's pilots and us grunts. Makes me envious of the relationship the Marines have with their air assets - a short leash. Just my .02 ya'll - Peregrino

[The Reaper]

Amen. As a Marine told me once, the operative word in Marine Aviation is Marine.

Too bad they don't have their own Docs or Chaplains. Not sure I would trade those.

TR

[CommoGeek]

FWIW,
I've seen more Marine attack sorties with 30 YO airframes (Cobras and Hueys, yes HUEY gunships) than with Army Apaches. YMMV in OIF....

One last quick bit about the A-10. The Litening II imagery pod that they carry is dy-no-MITE! (for you JJ Walker fans) They use it for FAC duties, HA when dams break and villages flood, target aquisition, etc. A GREAT piece of kit.

The JSF has some big shoes to fill.

[EX-Gold Falcon]

Next one, recent damage, OIF.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-10-pics.htm

Go to the bottom of the page.

TR

I have no doubt that you are of aware of the policy of the 7th AF during the bombing campaign of Germany. Finish 25 sorties and you were rotated out of theatre.

While not diminishing the accomplishments of this pilot, that level of damage was part-&-parcel for combat pilots during WWII.

The technological advances enjoyed by our current combat pilots (both aircraft, weapon systems and air power support) are unparalleled in the history of modern flight. Yes, A-10 and other close air support are more then willing to get down and dirty. But their chances of survival combined with technology that completely outstrips the enemy are truely unique. During WWII, for the most part our enemies possessed equal and sometimes superior equipment and training, and the dangers faced by men back then were far great then now. Every pilot flew by the seat of their pants and had to "knife-fight" their adversary.

That is the point I admire and have been TRYING to comment on. No GPS, FLIR, Infared, radar, computers, afterburners, titanium/kevlar armor, AWACS or KC-135's.


Travis

[Huey14]

I would argue that the Germans more often than not had better aviation assets than the Allies.

Also, we did have radar on the AC.

[CommoGeek]

I have no doubt that you are of aware of the policy of the 7th AF during the bombing campaign of Germany. Finish 25 sorties and you were rotated out of theatre.

While not diminishing the accomplishments of this pilot, that level of damage was part-&-parcel for combat pilots during WWII.

The technological advances enjoyed by our current combat pilots (both aircraft, weapon systems and air power support) are unparalleled in the history of modern flight. Yes, A-10 and other close air support are more then willing to get down and dirty. But their chances of survival combined with technology that completely outstrips the enemy are truely unique. During WWII, for the most part our enemies possessed equal and sometimes superior equipment and training, and the dangers faced by men back then were far great then now. Every pilot flew by the seat of their pants and had to "knife-fight" their adversary.

That is the point I admire and have been TRYING to comment on. No GPS, FLIR, Infared, radar, computers, afterburners, titanium/kevlar armor, AWACS or KC-135's.


Travis

One reason we have that equipment is that the threat levels have escalated. I'd bet that a pilot surviving 100 missions over North Vietnam, especially those into RP's 6a and 6b (Hanoi and Haiphong) would disagree with your knife fight analogy. Their 100 missions were analogous to 25 missions in the ETO. It is all about the threat level and the percentages.

For every computer on our modern a/c there are an equal number of computers on radar sites, seeker heads for SAMs, etc. Recall too that a/c are designed for anticipated threats. No one envisioned the GWOT when they designed the A-10. It was designed to go kill the 9th Mongolian horde at the Fulda gap. Had that battle occurred then I'd be willing to bet they'd fly by the seat of their pants as their forefathers did over the bocage of France.

Now, in a simple direct flight today's folks have it better, sure. However, combat has changed and the machines and training of the men had to change with it.

[The Reaper]

I have no doubt that you are of aware of the policy of the 7th AF during the bombing campaign of Germany. Finish 25 sorties and you were rotated out of theatre.

While not diminishing the accomplishments of this pilot, that level of damage was part-&-parcel for combat pilots during WWII.

The technological advances enjoyed by our current combat pilots (both aircraft, weapon systems and air power support) are unparalleled in the history of modern flight. Yes, A-10 and other close air support are more then willing to get down and dirty. But their chances of survival combined with technology that completely outstrips the enemy are truely unique. During WWII, for the most part our enemies possessed equal and sometimes superior equipment and training, and the dangers faced by men back then were far great then now. Every pilot flew by the seat of their pants and had to "knife-fight" their adversary.

That is the point I admire and have been TRYING to comment on. No GPS, FLIR, Infared, radar, computers, afterburners, titanium/kevlar armor, AWACS or KC-135's.

Travis

So basically, you are saying that pilots today are a bunch of punks compared to their WWII forefathers, and the plane/ordnance/mission profiles/lack of enemy skills and equipment make the job so much easier now?

TR

[EX-Gold Falcon]

So basically, you are saying that pilots today are a bunch of punks compared to their WWII forefathers, and the plane/ordnance/mission profiles/lack of enemy skills and equipment make the job so much easier now?

TR

Your comment is unwarrented and unappreciated. In every instance I have attempted to reply in a well thought out and Professional manner.

While I may be new to this board, I've come to enjoy the LACK of accusations such as this.

Your words not mine...


Travis

[The Reaper]

Your comment is unwarrented and unappreciated. In every instance I have attempted to reply in a well thought out and Professional manner.

While I may be new to this board, I've come to enjoy the LACK of accusations such as this.

Your words not mine...

Travis


I am sorry that you feel unappreciated and uncomfortable with my refusal to accept your argument. Would you like a hug?

What is the basis for your expertise and personal opinion?

TR

[EX-Gold Falcon]

I am sorry that you feel unappreciated and uncomfortable with my refusal to accept your argument. Would you like a hug?

What is the basis for your expertise and personal opinion?

TR

During WWII, my grandfather served as a waist gunner in a B-17 in the European theatre. From the stories he told, it was quite normal for squadrons to return home having suffered anywhere from 10-25% (or higher) casualty rates PER mission.

"And the plane/ordnance/mission profiles/lack of enemy skills and equipment make the job so much easier now?"

Maybe not easier, but their chances for survival are far greater. When was the last time (within the last 20yrs) have you heard of US airpower losing 10-25% of their forces on a single mission?

The technological gap between the US and almost everyone else is profound. Yet much of this is DUE to their forefathers in WWII.

As for a hug, well only if you wear a frilly little dress and promise to call my your "Big Daddy"! ;)


Travis

[Surgicalcric]

...As for a hug, well only if you wear a frilly little dress and promise to call my your "Big Daddy"! ;)


Travis

I know you did not go there. :munchin

Crip

[EX-Gold Falcon]

I know you did not go there. :munchin

Crip

Hey he did inquire about a hug.

Sides, little humor was needed to lighten things up a bit.


Travis

[lksteve]

During WWII, my grandfather served as a waist gunner in a B-17 in the European theatre. ..

When was the last time (within the last 20yrs) have you heard of US airpower losing 10-25% of their forces on a single mission?

As for a hug, well only if you wear a frilly little dress and promise to call my your "Big Daddy"!

#1...i appreciate and respect your grandfather's service...he was a contemporary of my late father...dad served in WWII (PTO), Korea and VN, held a 3rd award CIB...

#2...for perspective, let me put it to you this way...if you have had your bacon saved by a P47, A10, AH1, AC130 that pilot and his peers are the greatest guys in the world...period...there are those among us who have a deep and profound respect for A10 jocks...that doesn't mean we don't respect the men of earlier eras, but grampa ain't showed up to any fist fights i've been in, if you can grasp my meaning...

it's been awhile since we've had heavy airlosses, true...but as the ground threat to aircraft has progressed along with the capabilities of the aircraft who support us...it isn't the ground guy's fault the bad guys wouldn't come up and play during the last few dust-ups...

#3...there are folks on this board i will joke with...they are people i know, people i have served with...there are some i will kid with about minor stuff, but i'll be damned if i'd be quite as glib with a QP as you have been...and i am one...probably older than TR, probaby went through SF training before he did and that is all IRRELEVANT if you know what i mean...

but i ain't gonna be buried in your coffin, so it's your choice...

[EX-Gold Falcon]

#1...i appreciate and respect your grandfather's service...he was a contemporary of my late father...dad served in WWII (PTO), Korea and VN, held a 3rd award CIB...

Thank you, and same to you and yours.

#2...for perspective, let me put it to you this way...if you have had your bacon saved by a P47, A10, AH1, AC130 that pilot and his peers are the greatest guys in the world...period...there are those among us who have a deep and profound respect for A10 jocks...that doesn't mean we don't respect the men of earlier eras, but grampa ain't showed up to any fist fights i've been in, if you can grasp my meaning...

While serving in the 1st Gulf, we called in a few close airs and I have always had respect for them. Seeing an A-10 come and do a 30mm run while close up is something I'll never forget.


it's been awhile since we've had heavy airlosses, true...but as the ground threat to aircraft has progressed along with the capabilities of the aircraft who support us...it isn't the ground guy's fault the bad guys wouldn't come up and play during the last few dust-ups...

They've learned the folly of challenging our air power superiority and I hope they stay that way.


#3...there are folks on this board i will joke with...they are people i know, people i have served with...there are some i will kid with about minor stuff, but i'll be damned if i'd be quite as glib with a QP as you have been...

I figured it was best to take the "hug" comment purely in jest; and responded with that in regard.

but i ain't gonna be buried in your coffin, so it's your choice...

Maybe, but it was a funny repose!


Travis

[The Reaper]

During WWII, my grandfather served as a waist gunner in a B-17 in the European theatre. From the stories he told, it was quite normal for squadrons to return home having suffered anywhere from 10-25% (or higher) casualty rates PER mission.

"And the plane/ordnance/mission profiles/lack of enemy skills and equipment make the job so much easier now?"

Maybe not easier, but their chances for survival are far greater. When was the last time (within the last 20yrs) have you heard of US airpower losing 10-25% of their forces on a single mission?

The technological gap between the US and almost everyone else is profound. Yet much of this is DUE to their forefathers in WWII.

As for a hug, well only if you wear a frilly little dress and promise to call my your "Big Daddy"! ;)


Travis

Far be it from me to dispute your single source with historical fact. Congrats to your grandfather, BTW.

Consider whether in the course of historical evolution, yesterday's casualties and today's anti-air weapons might have forced the development of stand-off weapons and modern tactics.

At Antietam, we lost about 22,720 soldiers in one day, or about 25%. Most were killed at close range (under 100 meters). Are the soldiers who served subsequently less valorous, or their battles less significant because they failed to lose that number of participants, or lost them to indirect fire or other long range weapons?

Elements of the 82nd lost as many as 50% of their forces in Market Garden. Are subsequent All-American combatants from the Bulge, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, OEF, or OIF less valorous for not incurring such losses?

I would disagree with your thesis that modern day aviators are less valorous than their WW II predecessors due to their employment of longer range weapons. Our servicemembers will do what they are required to do, whether it is with a TLAM, or a bayonet.

BTW, your SA appears to be defective. Hope that you find that "repose" funny as well.

Have a very SF day.

TR

[lksteve]

BTW, your SA appears to be defective.

i am reminded of two other young men i have encountered in my life...one was a 2LT who seated himself at my desk while i was out of the office and proceeded to direct my 1SG to perform some menial task...before the 1SG had the chance to kill him, i breezed through the door and vented some frustration...always know where you are and never sit at the old man's desk....

some months back, we hired a young man who we employed in the survey department...he was bad for erasing lines drawn by other draftsmen as they were inferior to his work (his opinion, not mine)...i had completed the calculations for a boundary survey and handed the preliminary drawing off to him for completion, basically place the drawing in a company template, cross the 't's, dot the 'i's, plot a copy for my review and signature...he erased my lines, as they were 'wrong' (his opinion, not mine)...we fired the dumb sumbitch that day...always know whose lines you are working with and remember who the boss is...

[Lancer33]

Ex-Gold Falcon

When was the last time (within the last 20yrs) have you heard of US airpower losing 10-25% of their forces on a single mission?

I have only the greatest respect for your grandfather and his service. Air asset losses during WWII were extremely high.

I do not understand why you put a 20 year cap on the challenge above when you are quoting statistics from 50 years ago.

High rates of attrition amoung aviation assets was not uncommon during the VN war as the following data shaows:

Losses to US Helicopter Forces during Lam Son 719 were:
65 Helicopter Crewmen KIA,
818 Crewmen WIA,
42 Crewman MIA.
618 American Helicopters shot up, Downed and Damaged, 20% of which were not expected to fly again
106 Helicopters lost outright
All from 30 January to 24 March '71.

It was not uncommon for losses of aircraft supporting SOG operations to be in the 10-25% range.

Lots of lessons were learned in WWII, Korea, VN and dozens of other skirmishes that caused changes in tactics, airframe design and weapons systems. Whether those changes have all been for the good could be the subject of a lengthy debate, but the changes have reduced the loss of air assets.

The A-10 is (IMHO) the last remnant of an era when pilots got in the mud with the grunts. Whenever you go low and slow....you will get shot up. Them boys have brass balls.

My $.02

[EX-Gold Falcon]

Far be it from me to dispute your single source with historical fact. Congrats to your grandfather, BTW.

The number of source quotes is not nearly as important as the quality of the information. Moreover, anyone who enjoys the study of history as much as I may find a bounty of information if they desire. Heck, even A&E and the History Channel have made some rather good documentaries on WWII airpower.


Consider whether in the course of historical evolution, yesterday's casualties and today's anti-air weapons might have forced the development of stand-off weapons and modern tactics.

Well of course!

At Antietam, we lost about 22,720 soldiers in one day, or about 25%. Most were killed at close range (under 100 meters). Are the soldiers who served subsequently less valorous, or their battles less significant because they failed to lose that number of participants, or lost them to indirect fire or other long range weapons?

That is a rather “loaded” question. There is no possible answer that properly honors their sacrifice for our country.


Elements of the 82nd lost as many as 50% of their forces in Market Garden. Are subsequent All-American combatants from the Bulge, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, OEF, or OIF less valorous for not incurring such losses?

See above.


I would disagree with your thesis that modern day aviators are less valorous than their WW II predecessors due to their employment of longer range weapons. Our servicemembers will do what they are required to do, whether it is with a TLAM, or a bayonet.

Not once have I stated that current-day Aviators are any less brave then those in days past. Once again and with all due respect, these are YOUR words NOT mine. Perception is reality. As such, it serves no purpose to seek confrontations where none exist.

It has been my observation that as one of the forum moderators, yours is most typically a role of The Gatekeeper. You sift through posts seeking, those that are unworthy of this forum. Fine. I did not join this forum simply to “rub up” against authentic operators. I have served my country with Honor and do not need to represent myself at a level more then I earned. I joined because I shared many of your own viewpoints admired the general level of respect and appreciated the low tolerance of BS.

Furthermore, I come from a military family which can proudly say; we have served in EVERY major conflict dating back to the Civil War. Though barring the current conflicts.

You have your viewpoints and opinions, as do I. Wouldn’t you agree, that we are fortunate to live in a country where the right to express our respective opinions has been protected with blood?


BTW, your SA appears to be defective. Hope that you find that "repose" funny as well.

Not really.

Travis



TR[/QUOTE]

[EX-Gold Falcon]

i am reminded of two other young men i have encountered in my life...one was a 2LT who seated himself at my desk while i was out of the office and proceeded to direct my 1SG to perform some menial task...before the 1SG had the chance to kill him, i breezed through the door and vented some frustration...always know where you are and never sit at the old man's desk....

some months back, we hired a young man who we employed in the survey department...he was bad for erasing lines drawn by other draftsmen as they were inferior to his work (his opinion, not mine)...i had completed the calculations for a boundary survey and handed the preliminary drawing off to him for completion, basically place the drawing in a company template, cross the 't's, dot the 'i's, plot a copy for my review and signature...he erased my lines, as they were 'wrong' (his opinion, not mine)...we fired the dumb sumbitch that day...always know whose lines you are working with and remember who the boss is...

All this just because I've expressed a few opinions?

Pretty quick to judge. Look beyond the perception of my dissent.

T.

[EX-Gold Falcon]

Ex-Gold Falcon



I have only the greatest respect for your grandfather and his service. Air asset losses during WWII were extremely high.

I do not understand why you put a 20 year cap on the challenge above when you are quoting statistics from 50 years ago.

High rates of attrition amoung aviation assets was not uncommon during the VN war as the following data shaows:

Losses to US Helicopter Forces during Lam Son 719 were:
65 Helicopter Crewmen KIA,
818 Crewmen WIA,
42 Crewman MIA.
618 American Helicopters shot up, Downed and Damaged, 20% of which were not expected to fly again
106 Helicopters lost outright
All from 30 January to 24 March '71.

It was not uncommon for losses of aircraft supporting SOG operations to be in the 10-25% range.

Lots of lessons were learned in WWII, Korea, VN and dozens of other skirmishes that caused changes in tactics, airframe design and weapons systems. Whether those changes have all been for the good could be the subject of a lengthy debate, but the changes have reduced the loss of air assets.

The A-10 is (IMHO) the last remnant of an era when pilots got in the mud with the grunts. Whenever you go low and slow....you will get shot up. Them boys have brass balls.

My $.02

I used 20 yrs because of the number of technological leaps since Vietnam. Lessons learned...

70 yrs ago, would anyone have believed that Man would walk on the moon in only 35 yrs?


T.

[Sdiver]

What was this thread about again ????? :confused:

Oh Yeah....A really cool film of some awesome warbirds. :munchin

[EX-Gold Falcon]

What was this thread about again ????? :confused:

Oh Yeah....A really cool film of some awesome warbirds. :munchin

I thought it was too.

The P-38 Lightening was my personal favorite!


T