1911 style .45

[Sacamuelas]

I am about to purchase a new pistol. After shooting a family members .45 commander for the last few years, I have decided that I "need" a 1911 style .45. My uses for this pistol will be for home defense/ personal carry firearm (concealed)/improving my recreation shooting accuracy.

My desires:
I place #1 priority on functional reliability shooting both plinking ammo as well as the personal defense loads. My next priority is not really the ability to completely conceal but to have a ?comfortable? carry gun when wearing a jacket. This is why I am considering the 4? version verses the 5?. I usually carry my pistols using an inside of the belt type holster with the pistol tilted/angled forward on the right rear hip. Craftsmanship and long lasting quality parts are also important to me. Price range I am looking is from $800-$2000.

About me:
I am competent with a pistol and plan on negotiating with one of the most highly trained combat shooters I know for individualized training ;). Although I won?t be in the national title matches, I have a desire to work with a pistol that will have the potential to function at any level I can achieve without restricting my potential. I have the facilities available near me for a lot of training, shooting, etc. FWIW, The cost of a weapon in my listed range will not hinder my ability to purchase enough ammo for proper practice.


Questions: For those that carry/have carried a 1911 type pistol:

1. Does the small difference in barrel length from 5? to 4? make much difference to you in carry comfort?

2. What is the accuracy of a standard plane Jane 1911 5? barrel pistol at 25yrds? ( I ask this to determine just how much more accurate the customized pistols are compared to the standard. Some custom models claim 1.5 inches 3 shots at 25yds with a 4? model and 1? at 25yds for the 5?)

3. Do you agree with the choice of the 4? barrel knowing my purpose for this pistol?

4. Besides night sights, any other features you would recommend that aren?t considered ?standard? on the most custom level pistols. Most all seem to have ambidex safety, front strap machining, match barrels, nice/crisp 3-4 lb triggers, beavertail grip safety

5. What brand./model pistol would you buy if looking for what I have described? I am thinking hard about the Wilson CQB compact, MODEL WCQBC-A-A . Here is a link http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_cqb_compact.asp


Any comments are appreciated. I realize this asks a lot of you to spend your time giving me advice. I thank you in advance.

[Sacamuelas]

BTW- After I get some real advice, everyone can save up the following type comments for me, as NDD has already made it clear that I am over my head purchasing a bullet launcher of this quality. LOL

NDD over the last two days…LOL

The Holy Gospel of John (Moses Browning)
1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.
2. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm…..(continued)… plagiarized from somewhere else - for Sacamuelas.

and

Good news here is we only have too problems… (2) Sacamuelas buying too much gun

and


On another note, WTH are you buying a pistol that will out shoot you for?

Please save some of this for after I get some serious advice. LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

About me: I am competent with a pistol

Can I do just one more before you start getting serious advice?:D

[brownapple]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas

Questions: For those that carry/have carried a 1911 type pistol:

1. Does the small difference in barrel length from 5” to 4” make much difference to you in carry comfort?

Not to me. I'm used to the 5" and prefer it.

2. What is the accuracy of a standard plane Jane 1911 5” barrel pistol at 25yrds? ( I ask this to determine just how much more accurate the customized pistols are compared to the standard. Some custom models claim 1.5 inches 3 shots at 25yds with a 4” model and 1” at 25yds for the 5”)

I've carried 3 different 1911s in my life.
1. A M1911 issued by the US Army that I could shoot 2" groups with at 25 yds.
2. A Mk. IV Series '70 with a National Match barrel that I could shoot 2" groups with at 25 yds (although I expect the weapon was capable of better).
3. A 1911A1 that fires about 3.5" groups at 25 yds. This weapon has seen a lot of use.

3. Do you agree with the choice of the 4” barrel knowing my purpose for this pistol?

If you are comfortable with it? Sure.

4. Besides night sights, any other features you would recommend that aren’t considered “standard” on the most custom level pistols. Most all seem to have ambidex safety, front strap machining, match barrels, nice/crisp 3-4 lb triggers, beavertail grip safety

All that is necessary are good sights, a good trigger and reliability. The rest of what is important is provided by the shooter.

5. What brand./model pistol would you buy if looking for what I have described? I am thinking hard about the Wilson CQB compact, MODEL WCQBC-A-A . Here is a link http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_cqb_compact.asp


Any comments are appreciated. I realize this asks a lot of you to spend your time giving me advice. I thank you in advance.

I'm not that familiar with what is on the market these days. Wilson makes a good pistol. So do lots of others.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Questions: For those that carry/have carried a 1911 type pistol:

1. Does the small difference in barrel length from 5” to 4” make much difference to you in carry comfort?

Yes. I also prefer the alloy frame for the same reason, and carry the extra weight in ammo (a double stack).

Incidentally, a Commander has a 4.25 inch barrel, the Kimber and Paras are 4 inches even.

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
2. What is the accuracy of a standard plane Jane 1911 5” barrel pistol at 25yrds? ( I ask this to determine just how much more accurate the customized pistols are compared to the standard. Some custom models claim 1.5 inches 3 shots at 25yds with a 4” model and 1” at 25yds for the 5”)

Some from the old arms room days would barely hold 8" at 25 yds. Les Baer will guarantee 1.5" from his. Why are you shooting at a bad guy at 25 yds. What threat does he present at that range? Can you justify shooting someone at that range?

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
3. Do you agree with the choice of the 4” barrel knowing my purpose for this pistol?

Yes. I carry a 3.5" barrelled pistol for concealment.

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
4. Besides night sights, any other features you would recommend that aren’t considered “standard” on the most custom level pistols. Most all seem to have ambidex safety, front strap machining, match barrels, nice/crisp 3-4 lb triggers, beavertail grip safety

Novak night sights (regulated for your loads), opened and flared ejection port, front cocking serrations, tuned extractor, 18-22# Wolff recoil spring and Wolff springs throughout, reworked plunger tube, OT adjustable lightweight trigger, ambi extended safety, beavertail grip safety, aftermarket ramped barrel and solid bushing (if not included, I like Kart and BarSto), fitted trigger components, 30 lpi or better checkered front strap, S&A combo mainspring housing and mag well, trigger job, function tune, carry package, bevel and break all corners and edges, best mags available, tuned for the loads and gun.

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
5. What brand./model pistol would you buy if looking for what I have described? I am thinking hard about the Wilson CQB compact, MODEL WCQBC-A-A . Here is a link http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_cqb_compact.asp

Most gunsmiths make the poackage above, plus or minus a few pieces, from Larry Vickers down to the guy in your town. For a carry piece, I would stick with a name builder with a good rep who does most of his own work. Look in American Handgunner or check with the American Pistolsmith's Guild.

Good luck, I hope this helps.

TR

[Sacamuelas]

For those interested in knowing who Larry Vickers is, here is a link. I knew I had read about him recently in one of my gun magazines. http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0BTT/153_25/75211979/p1/article.jhtml?term=


TR and GH-
Thank you for the advice and personal time it took to type it. I have printed this out for future reference in my decision making process. Unfortunately, L.V.'s creations are out of my $$$ range, and I doubt he would take the time to make one for me (unless you can twist his arm TR;) ).

I see where Wilson is also making a KZ 45 compact model with a SS slide/barrel and polymer frame. Any feedback on this polymer frame model? It is slightly cheaper, guarantees the same 1.5" 25yrd accuracy, and holds 9+1 verses 7+1 as in the CQB compact. It is still only the normal 1 5/16" wide, same height and length. Two extra rounds and $600 cheaper...makes you think.

I am hesitant about the polymer frame (being a new design) but with the Wilson company its guaranteed for life the of the pistol. Does this pistol have any obvious drawbacks? I see it doesn't have the exact list of TR recommended items.
I like the look of this WKZC-A-S model.
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_kz45_compact.asp

I am still leaning towards the CQB compact since it seems to have a more parallel parts spec sheet with what you suggest TR.
Any other choices/preferences that would like to be shared? Your advice is appreciated. Or is it time for the jokes.....NDD, you still lurking? LOL

[QuietShootr]

I can't speak to the compact, but I have a full-size CQB that is my daily carry piece. It's absolutely dead-nuts reliable, accurate like a laser, and comfortable to carry in spite of its weight and size, because it has NO sharp edges or points. Its trigger is a measured 3.0# and crisp.

If the compacts are as good as this one, and I have no reason to think they aren't, I may have to have one of those too. I do prefer the 5", though. It's a little easier to shoot when you're really pushing your limits. I can do a sub-4.5 second Dozier on demand with my CQB, and I don't think I could run that fast with the same degree of accuracy with a compact.

YMMV.

Edit: yeah, there are those that hold that 1 second or so won't make a difference. Maybe they're right, but if I'm wrong, I'm still upright and unperforated. And BGs aren't always alone...

[Psywar1-0]

Im carrying a Springfield Champion, like the size ect. Out of the box it's a dam good concealed carry gun. Runs everything from Wall Mart Range ammo to LE Hydroshocks with no troubles. When I get back home I will time QS with it and see how well he can shoot it.

[QuietShootr]

Might be an interesting test - I've never shot a short 1911 side by side with a full size for speed. I'd think maybe the first round might be a hair quicker due to less weight and less length on the drawstroke, but I bet the splits will be slower, FWIW.

[Sacamuelas]

Well, I spent yesterday getting familiar with my new .45 pistol. I combined Reaper’s and GH's advice to find a weapon that fit my personal needs. I even ended up using a little NDD advice too. LOL QS and Psywar- I appreciate your experiences as well.

Concerning my "need" to by a Wilson, I got on http://forums.1911forum.com/ and read every post I could about the different gun makers-custom and factory. After thinking about the subtle advice I have seen from NDD and GH, I decided I would go look at other maker’s weapons and try them out before I ordered a "guru" gun from Wilson.

Anyway, I wore an old KC custom gun leather IWB holster (similar to a summer special type model) to the gun shop. I tried the different sized .45 in the holster and in my hand for comfort/fit/conceal. I decided the 4" barrel/full size AL frame was the best fit for my needs. Did a few dry fires with the different guns to get an idea of the quality of triggers as well. Thanks for the advice gentlemen.

I ended up buying a Kimber Custom Pro CDP II. It has a 4" SS match grade bull barrel hand fitted to the slide, full size aluminum lower with beveled mag well, Meprolight night sights, 30 LPI front strap checkering, 3 1/2-4lb match alum. trigger, dehorned(melted is what Kimber calls it), lowered/flared ejection port, and beavertail grip safety.
http://www.kimberamerica.com/cdp.php

I am sure it is not comparable to a Wilson, but it really seems like a quality first gun for my introduction into the 1911 .45 world. It conceals quite nicely on me, even with just a T-shirt over it.

I borrowed two Wilson 8 rd mags and took it to the country for a little shooting. Put around 200 rounds through it and thoroughly enjoyed it. Per Reapers common sense, I am practicing shooting at 5 and 15 yards for now. Initial response- This little gun is very accurate and reliable.

I saved around $1000 bucks verses the Wilson CQB compact too. I did order four 8 rd Wilson mags with the aluminum bases last night. I have read bad things about the flat/split metal follower on the Kimber mags when used with AL lowers.

Only thing I didn't like about it during my initial shooting was that it has a flat contoured "plastic" mainspring housing that is poorly/roughly checkered. I am now looking for an AL replacement that has 30 LPI checkering. I have a spare steel part that is substantially heavier compared to the plastic so I think an AL (with its luster similar to SS)type would be a better compromise in weight/strength/feel/looks.

Assuming this gun continues to fire reliably, is it wise to worry about changing to name brand spring kits(WOLF) before it comes time to replace them around 800-1000 rounds?

Again thanks for all the help. If there are any other suggestions, please chime in. I am listening.
*** edited to fix broken/misstyped link

[The Reaper]

Excellent choice, and a very logical way to select the right piece.

Oddly enough, Wilson and Kimber use many of the same parts from the same company.

Call S&A and get their checkered steel mainspring housing and combo mag guide. You will not be sorry. The flat model fits most people with small to medium sized hands best. The full arched model will cause most people grip issues and will tend to point the muzzle slightly high for a natural aim.

Check the mag release button. If it is not steel, replace that as well. Stay away from the race gun parts.

Wait till break in is complete to change springs. Burn 500 rounds or so of full house FMJ. Then function test at least 100 rounds of your carry ammo and mags. Function test at least 50 rounds any time you change things, like the springs or mags.

Good luck and happy shooting!

TR

[Sacamuelas]

Thank you TR.
I looked up the mag release on it to be sure.
"...Stainless steel small parts like the slide release, magazine release, beavertail grip safety..."
I should be good.


When I tore it down/cleaned it last night, I noticed I am going to need some sort of tool to compress the recoil spring back onto the guide rod once it has been removed and cleaned. It has a full-length guide rod (wasn’t my first choice) and this makes it necessary to compress and temporarily pin the spring and spring follower (?) in place- compressed- during disassemble/assembly. This is only a necessary procedure when you want to take the recoil spring completely off the guide rod for a thorough "at home" type cleaning verses a quick wipe down lube at the range. Anyone else other than TR have an idea/link on finding this tool? I hate to keep asking him for help, if not he will end up wanting to put me on his taxes too! :p

Currently, I am only shooting FMJ 230 gr. loads (they are the low cost Remington UMC) right now. I will transition to the carry ammo and test them like you suggest after the break-in period.

[The Reaper]

Be sure to keep it well lubed while breaking in the piece.

The weight of a steel vs. an aluminum MSH (never seen one in Al) is not significant, it is a high abrasion part, and a failure is catastrophic, the pistol will not go boom if you drop it and break it.

TR

[Sacamuelas]

Alright, Steel it will be. Going to find the website for the company you recommended.

[Sacamuelas]

Smith/Alexander right??? Or is it a different maker?

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Smith/Alexander right??? Or is it a different maker?

Thats the one.

Good choice on the pistol too.

As far as changing your springs you can probably hold off on that for a while seeing how Kimber doesn't consider there pistols "broken in" until 900-1000 rnds.

I have 2500 + rounds through my TLE and I have yet to have any malfunctions with it.

Pay close attention to your Wilson Mags a few friends of mine and I have personally experienced malfunctions due to wilson mags. I don't know if wilson has fixed this or not but there mag springs were to weak. B/C of this we have all converted to the Chip McCormick Power mags (8 rounders). None of us has had a mag related malfunction since.

As far as getting front strap checkering done. Try shooting a 1911 with front strap checkering before you purchase it (if you can) some people do not like front strap checkering. Another "test" you can do is to put skate board "grip" tape on the front strap of the weapon. If you like it you will probably like front strap checkering but if you don't you just saved yourself the price of a frame.

Lastly I have a Springfield Champion (4 inch barrel) and a Kimber TLE (5 inch barrel) I carried the Champion for about 2 years, and have been carrying my TLE for about a year now. If anything I think I shoot faster with my Champion for some reason. I have yet to put it on a timer but I just feel faster with the Champion.

Psywar1-0 and QS I will be curious which one shoots faster. Please let me know.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well congratulations Sacamuelas. Looks like you made an excellent choice. Enjoy your weapon.

[Sacamuelas]

Thanks Joe...
I gave the Wilson 8 rounder a trial yesterday with no feed troubles at all. That is why I am going with Wilson. The CM magazines would have to have a new plastic follower put in them to prevent damage to the feed ramp on my aluminum frame. If want to understand what I am talking about, check out this thread (it has pics of the damage).
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=61318

My Kimber already has front strap checkering. I like the solid grip on it when shooting with sweaty hands like mine. Does make you tough though ... like using newspaper for toilet paper - ROUGH! LOL

I've got an email into the S&A site about the mainspring housings. I am not going to get the integrated housing/mag well as TR suggested since it adds 1/4" to the length of the grip. With my uses for this one, I can do without the ability to reload Super fast and easy for the ability to conceal. Anyway, I sit on the couch/computer desk and practice dry fire trigger pulls and reloads to get the fast part without the extra length on the grip to conceal.

They do list that they make AL mainspring housings on the site. I asked in the email about their durability and friction resistance compared to SS. I also asked for weight differences between the two and their recommendation for a concealed carry defense weapon verses a target shooting/range gun. Will post the response when I get it if anyone is interested.

Thanks NDD.

[Sacamuelas]

Here is the response I got from S&A:
There is a 1 ounce difference the SS & AL will function the same. We are out of the Flat Neutral and probably will not have for a long time. We do have the black. If you have any further questions please call 1-800-722-1911

[.45ACP]

I know my knowledge and experience on this subject doesn't rate any more than a turd compared to all of you but I just wanted to mention I have the exact same pistol for concealed carry and I absolutely love it. I have shot about 1000 rounds through it so far. Had some malfunctions with the Kimber mags so I bought a couple of Wilson's and haven't had any problems since.

I spent a while searching for a good 1911 carry pistol, and when I picked this one up it felt so good in my hands my brother had to pry it from me with the phrase, "...from my cold, dead hands," running through my mind. It's very accurate, compact, nice meltdown treatment, reliable...funnest pistol I've shot yet. Pain in the butt to reassemble it after cleaning though...

Anyway, thanks for the posting space, I will just lope back on over to the Isolation board now.