Iraqi Gov On The Go

[NousDefionsDoc]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-arabs23mar23,0,7603599.story?coll=la-home-headlines

BAGHDAD — In a bid to rid the country of foreign insurgents, the Iraqi government is using strict new residency rules to detain and expel non-Iraqi Arabs.

Any Arab without the proper permit can be detained, interrogated and asked to leave the country, Interior Ministry officials said. So far the program has swept up mostly Syrians, Sudanese, Saudis and Egyptians, and about 250 people have been asked to leave.

Far more are being detained — as many as 200 a day in the Baghdad area alone — although most are released within a few days. Though some are taken in for suspected terrorist activities, others are held with no evidence other than not having proper residency permits under the new rules. Such people can be deported without any evidence of having committed crimes. Although the focus has been on Arabs, a few Chechens and Iranians also have been detained.

"The fact is that some, not all, Arabs and foreigners have destroyed the reputation of Arab and foreign countries in Iraq," said Brig. Gen. Taif Tariq Hussein, who heads the Interior Ministry's residency office. "They have either helped in executing sabotage operations or they have carried out sabotage themselves.

"Both Arabs and some foreigners have been harmful to this society," he said.

The ostensible reason for the policy, established last month after extensive consultations among Iraqi security agencies, is to stem the insurgency. But many Arabs who have lived in Iraq for years fear that they will be lumped in with wrongdoers and deported. Many of these tens of thousands of Arab residents do not have papers that meet the new requirements.

The current Iraqi administration is making no promises, and the incoming government could enforce the rules even more stringently.

For decades, Baghdad had been a magnet for Arabs from other Middle Eastern nations who came for work and study. The new regulations have brought fear to foreign-Arab neighborhoods, some of which have existed for more than a generation.

Many non-Iraqis say they now face a wholesale campaign to make their lives difficult. They are being unfairly harassed by soldiers and police, they say, as well as being taken into custody for what once would have been minor paperwork irregularities.

'It Is Unfair'

The crackdown has unnerved many longtime foreign Arab residents of Iraq because they enjoyed favored status under Saddam Hussein, in part because the former president was a strong proponent of pan-Arabism, which advocated mutual assistance among Arabs regardless of their countries of origin.

"It is unfair that even those of us who have been here for decades should be treated like this," said Mustafa Mohammed, 43, a Syrian car mechanic who has been in Iraq since 1984 and who lives and works in the crime-ridden Bataween neighborhood of Baghdad.

Most deeply alarmed are Palestinians, whose community in Iraq numbers more than 30,000, most of them in Baghdad. Many came here in 1948, when the British mandate in Palestine ended and the state of Israel was created.

They married other refugees and had children. Initially they did not become Iraqi citizens because they feared the move would threaten their right to return home. Later, Hussein's government issued Iraqi travel documents to Palestinians who wished to leave the country, but it refused to give them citizenship, wanting them to remain loyal to the cause of freeing their homeland from Israeli occupation. Hussein offered citizenship to other Arabs who wanted it.

Most Palestinians here have nowhere to go. Their original hometowns are now in Israeli territory or under Israeli control, and Israeli officials have no interest in adding to the burgeoning number of Palestinians in either area. Without residency documents or passports, Palestinians are also unwelcome elsewhere.

Iraq's deportation policy has been widely publicized in newspapers and through graffiti in some of Baghdad's central squares. The scrawled messages sound a note of hostility: "Arabs out of Iraq" and "We agree with the government — Arabs go home."

The Al Taakhi newspaper, one of Baghdad's major dailies, carried a headline last week that read, "Life Sentence for the Illegal Arab Residents." The article quoted an anonymous official from the Interior Ministry saying: "The punishments are strict and will be imposed on the illegal residents. Some may even receive a life sentence."

The new rules were agreed to after consultations among several Iraqi security agencies.

"We know the neighborhoods where there are these bad people, so we started to make some sweeps," said residency office director Hussein. "Whoever lacks one of the requirements for residency will be asked to leave the country."

For those who have lived here for years, the xenophobia is painful. Most Arabs came for work, often with proper papers. But unless they have returned periodically to their native countries to update their passports and renew their Iraqi entry documents, they may no longer have proper legal status.

The new requirements are stiff. A person must have a valid passport or travel document from his or her native country; an entry visa for Iraq; and, if coming for work, a signed contract. The Ministry of Work and Social Security can decide not to honor the contract if the work can be done by an Iraqi. However, anyone married to an Iraqi is exempt.

The rules for non-Iraqis are the same for longtime residents and newcomers.

In the 1970s and '80s, jobs for manual laborers were plentiful, especially while native-born men were fighting the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. For a time, for instance, many of the gravediggers were Egyptians, Baghdad natives say.

Relatively few Arabs have come to work in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, in part because of broad disapproval in the Arab world of the subsequent occupation. Some of those who came legally, mainly Kuwaitis and Egyptians, have been attacked by the anti-American insurgents.

Sudanese Targeted

In addition to Palestinians, Sudanese Arabs are easy targets of the new regulations, standing out on the Baghdad streets with their darker complexions and lanky frames. Many came here legally to work as manual laborers and stayed on. They are poorly organized and readily intimidated.

Fadlulla Abdullah, 42, came to Iraq 15 years ago, bringing his Sudanese wife and children. So far he has had no trouble because he works for one of Baghdad's largest hotels. But he views himself as lucky.

"Some of my fellow Sudanese living and working in Iraq have been insulted and badly treated recently by some ING [Iraqi national guard] soldiers," he said.

"The soldiers are not differentiating between the good guys and the very, very few bad guys," he said. "There are many Iraqis living in Khartoum [the Sudanese capital]. Let us suppose that a few of them would commit some violations or a crime…. Is it logical that they would all be expelled from Sudan?"

Other Sudanese face uncertainty about whether they will be able to continue to work in Iraq.

"My problem is that the notary public at the court is now refusing to certify my renewed contract with the Kubaysa Construction company," said Othman Mohammed, 45. "They told me they are still waiting for new instructions from the government regarding residence."

Palestinians feel particularly vulnerable. They were often hated by Iraqis because they were favored by Saddam Hussein, who used them to justify his anti-Americanism. Most married within the Palestinian community, and despite 30 or more years in Iraq, they have nothing official to show for it.

"By existing law, almost all of them could be deported," said a senior U.S. official working on Iraqi security issues. "But I don't think you're going to see a hard line."

The U.S. official added that things could get tougher because many Iraqis blame foreigners for the insurgency, though most officials believe that attacks on civilians have largely been carried out by Iraqis.

"If you can't control the people in your own country, then rightly or wrongly, you look at outsiders, and they are very sensitive if not paranoid about them," the official said.

That matters little to most Palestinians, who no longer feel at ease in their adopted country.

"We don't know what is going to happen to us," said Amer Mahmoud, 39, who was born in Baghdad and used to work in a sewing factory but is now unemployed.

"It is possible they'll use the new rule to get rid of us, but where will we go? They are going to throw us on the border…. No country will accept us — even Arab countries will not," he said as he tightly gripped his 9-year-old daughter's hand, as if afraid they would be separated.

Already he has come down in the world. As a Palestinian under Hussein, he lived in government-subsidized housing, had a guaranteed job and could attend college for free. Now he and his family are eking out an existence in a refugee camp on the eastern edge of Baghdad.

The many ironies are not lost on the Palestinians. Although they are Arabs, they know they are seen as outsiders. And in this case, that means they are viewed as potential saboteurs of the country that has given them refuge for decades.

"We are getting lost and mixed up with all of these other people. Wherever there is terrorism, they will say it's Arabs behind it," Mahmoud said. "If they decide all Arabs have to go, we will have to go and our fates will be tied to theirs."

[NousDefionsDoc]

'It Is Unfair'

The crackdown has unnerved many longtime foreign Arab residents of Iraq because they enjoyed favored status under Saddam Hussein, in part because the former president was a strong proponent of pan-Arabism, which advocated mutual assistance among Arabs regardless of their countries of origin.
But I thought there was no way Hussein would ever work with UBL. IMO, "pan-Arabism" is a PC term for the caliphate.

[The Reaper]

Man, that is bad news. :D

If you read and accept the LA Times' version of things.

Nice spin effort.

Anyone invited into Iraq by Saddam and hosted by him served him and the Baathists in some way.

TR

[magician]

The new requirements are stiff. A person must have a valid passport or travel document from his or her native country; an entry visa for Iraq; and, if coming for work, a signed contract. The Ministry of Work and Social Security can decide not to honor the contract if the work can be done by an Iraqi. However, anyone married to an Iraqi is exempt.


Actually...those requirements are pretty standard.

In fact...I cannot think of any country off the top of my head that will allow a foreigner to just show up without a passport.

Requiring an entry visa merely means that visitors or immigrants need to enter the country through a checkpoint. I do not know of any country that does not care if folks just saunter across national borders with no controls.

Requiring work permits...is simply another manifestation of an actual government emerging from chaos.

There will be growing pains, certainly. And I have always been an advocate of the humanistic interpretation of laws as opposed to their mechanical application.

The fact that an exemption for those married to Iraqis has been included shows that there is more than mere xenophobia behind these measures.

This is what governments do. They govern. And population control measures....are a critical component of the state. Any state.

[brownapple]

There you go making sense again, Magic man...

[The Reaper]

Actually...those requirements are pretty standard.

In fact...I cannot think of any country off the top of my head that will allow a foreigner to just show up without a passport.

Requiring an entry visa merely means that visitors or immigrants need to enter the country through a checkpoint. I do not know of any country that does not care if folks just saunter across national borders with no controls.

Requiring work permits...is simply another manifestation of an actual government emerging from chaos.

There will be growing pains, certainly. And I have always been an advocate of the humanistic interpretation of laws as opposed to their mechanical application.

The fact that an exemption for those married to Iraqis has been included shows that there is more than mere xenophobia behind these measures.

This is what governments do. They govern. And population control measures....are a critical component of the state. Any state.

Hey, hermano:

How do you explain the millions of illegal aliens in the US working, who walked in, have no documentation, are afforded many of the benefits that citizens enjoy, and are actually protected by some communities from identification and deportation?

TR

[jatx]

Well put, Magician.

[magician]

Hey, hermano:

How do you explain the millions of illegal aliens in the US working, who walked in, have no documentation, are afforded many of the benefits that citizens enjoy, and are actually protected by some communities from identification and deportation?

TR

I call a spade a spade: our government has not historically done its job where border security is concerned, and I do not believe that it is doing its job now.

This is a ding on all of us:

1. there is an economic strata in this country that has learned to rely on cheap, illegal labor. Such employers are culpable. Their profits are feasible because they are able to exploit illegal workers.

2. Americans are spoiled, and prefer that illegal laborers actually do many categories of jobs in this country.

My feeling is that there are laborers all over the world who could and would register to come to America legally to do such jobs. If you look at Canada, for example, they have a serious labor deficit. They import workers from Mexico, the Caribbean, and lately, from Thailand (which is how I learned about this). These workers are imported under offical government pilot programs. The workers are vetted, screened, registered, enter Canada under a visa, and are specifically admitted to work a particular job for a finite time period under the terms of a legal work permit, upon the expiration of which, they are required to return to their country of origin.

In the case of America, rather than permitting illegal aliens to continue to work in undocumented jobs in an informal economy, illegal laborers should all be fired, immediately, and directed to proceed to their nearest immigration office. At this office, they should be registered, issued social security cards and numbers, and either issued visas or returned to their countries of origin. Those who are issued visas should be required to pay taxes, just like any other participant in the US economy. They should be targeted to specific jobs, as is done in the Canadian model, and undesirables should be deported.

Employers that hire illegal aliens should be subjected to stringent, even heinous penalties. The choice should be basic: get legal, or go to jail, and forfeit your business. Period. Without employers willing to hire illegal labor, there is no illegal labor market, and hence no place for illegal workers to go. Remove the incentive, you cripple the existing paradigm. I could give a fuck if we end up paying more for strawberries and lettuce. Those who can afford them will buy them. Those who cannot, will do without. Just like we all did when we were kids, and poor.

If we want to rid ourselves of this dire security problem, then we need to provide a viable alternative, both for those countries which desire to export labor to America, and for those employers that wish to hire cheap foreign labor for low-paying jobs that Americans prefer not to do.

We should offer a 90-day grace period. Any illegal alien apprehended after the expiration of this grace period should be arrested and deported immediately. I do not care whose nanny gets caught in the dragnet, nor do I care if a kid who is a legal citizen has an illegal mother who gets deported, and he misses his math quiz. All illegal workers should either get registered, and get legal, and work for employers who will deduct payroll taxes and social security, or they should go home. No mercy.

Those employers who cannot afford to remain solvent by paying foreign workers more, by paying their withholding taxes and social security, for example, and who cannot afford to handle the accounting required to host foreign workers legally, should file for bankruptcy immediately, and go out of business.

Done deal.

3. Border security. Those military units which conduct training in the CONUS, should henceforth pull 120 day tours of border interdiction duty along every mile of our borders. I mean, the Navy should interdict our shorelines, our Army and Marines should patrol our land borders, and our Air Force should support deployed units and vector them in on infiltrators.

I am not unaware that we are at war. If I am not mistaken, however, units which are preparing to deploy, do still conduct training. That training should henceforth be conducted along our borders. Live ammunition should be used, and infiltrators who attempt to enter America without using a checkpoint should be subject to engagement. Yes, I am advocating the killing of defenseless women and children who cross the Rio Grande. If we kill enough of them, others will stop following them, and temporary workers coming to work here will use border stations like legal temporary workers should.

I am under no illusions whatsoever that these measures will actually be implemented.

Naysayers will claim that the economic impact would be significant. I think that we could handle the turbulence. The impact would be significant on those employers who rely on cheap illegal labor. Too bad.

There would be negative impact on Mexico. Too bad. Millions of Mexican workers could still come here to work, but they would have to do so under the provisions of government programs. This would create a vast new bureaucracy. As much as I hate bureaucracy.....this would amount to the creation of new jobs. It has to be pointed out.

Or....we can pussyfoot around until we have a bunch of angry young Muslim men comfortably ensconced in our cities, preparing to visit our shopping malls and open fire.

Our day of reckoning has not yet come. September 11....was just a taste.

We have no security in America today. We will pay a price for this complacency, and for our lack of efficiency.

If I ever live on the mainland again, and it is far from certain that I will ever return to the US....you will find me up in the hills, armed to the teeth. My guns will be legal. But my defensive security layers will be concentric, they will be both active and passive, and when the conflagrations begin in America, as I believe that they will sometime in the next ten years, you had best not come knocking uninvited, or unannounced. Those who need to know will always know the running password.

Others....should go sell encyclopedias elsewhere.

[The Reaper]

Hey, Magician:

Good to see that you are awake today! :D

You can bunk up here if you need to. Not in the hills, yet, but have a plan.

TR

[Gypsy]

I call a spade a spade: our government has not historically done its job where border security is concerned, and I do not believe that it is doing its job now.


Or....we can pussyfoot around until we have a bunch of angry young Muslim men comfortably ensconced in our cities, preparing to visit our shopping malls and open fire.



Magic Man...you have succintly put into the written word thoughts I've had in my head for eons.

I believe they are already here...

[magician]

sorry for the digression....feel free to split this off, if you think appropriate.

from : http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm

Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published March 28, 2005

NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.

James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers.

"We're not worried because half of our recruits are retired trained combat soldiers," Mr. Gilchrist said. "And those guys are just a bunch of punks."

More than 1,000 volunteers are expected to take part in the Minuteman vigil, which will include civilian patrols along a 20-mile section of the San Pedro River Valley, which has become a frequent entry point to the United States for foreigner headed north.

About 40 percent of the 1.15 million foreign nationals caught last year by the U.S. Border Patrol trying to gain illegal entry to the United States were apprehended along a 260-mile stretch of the Arizona border here known as the Tucson sector.

Many of the Minuteman volunteers are expected to be armed, although organizers of the border vigil have prohibited them from carrying rifles. Only those people with a license to carry a handgun will be allowed to do so, Mr. Gilchrist said.

An operational plan calls for teams of four to eight volunteers to be deployed along the targeted 20-mile stretch of border at intervals of 200 to 300 yards, along with observation posts and a command center.

Mr. Gilchrist said some of the patrols and posts will be right on the U.S.-Mexico border, while others will be located farther north. The volunteers also have been told to "make lots of noise and burn campfires at night to be very visible."

According to guidelines issued to the volunteers earlier this month, organizers said they expect that they will be targeted by various protest groups and others and that some protesters would try to provoke confrontations.

"If we are to send the message loud and clear to President Bush and Congress, it is imperative we stay within the law," Mr. Gilchrist said.

"If one single person steps over the line for their personal gratification, we are all stained with that irresponsible behavior and labeled forever as a fringe element that embarrasses all who are counting on us to make this historic statement," he said.

The MS-13 gang has established major smuggling operations in several areas along the U.S.-Mexico border and have transported hundreds of Central and South Americans -- including gang members -- into the United States in the past two years. The gang also is involved in drug and weapons smuggling.

Gang members in America have been tied to numerous killings, robberies, burglaries, carjackings, extortion, rapes and aggravated assaults. Authorities said that the gang has earned a reputation from the other street gangs as being particularly ruthless and that it will retaliate violently when challenged.

The MS-13 gang, with 20,000 members nationwide, has risen in recent months to such prominence that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), the investigative arm of the Department of Homeland Security, has begun a nationwide crackdown on gang members in this country -- as part of a sweeping law-enforcement initiative known as Operation Community Shield.

ICE agents arrested more than 100 members of the gang during limited raids that began in January in just six cities, including 35 who were taken into custody in Virginia and Maryland. The authorities said MS-13 gang members originally moved into the Los Angeles area in the 1980s.

[aricbcool]

""We're not worried because half of our recruits are retired trained combat soldiers," Mr. Gilchrist said. "And those guys are just a bunch of punks.""

Well put. :munchin

[jatx]

""We're not worried because half of our recruits are retired trained combat soldiers," Mr. Gilchrist said. "And those guys are just a bunch of punks.""

Well put. :munchin

Yeah, but they have to leave their long guns at home...

[Manstein]

In reference to MS-13 threatening the Minute Men, it was on the news today that the border patrol was adding 500 new agents to the Arizona border. (2 days before the Minute Men start their patrols.)

This doesn't surprise me the least bit. The Bush administration has openly criticised the Minute Men as "vigilantes", choosing to side with the Mexicans (as usual) If there is a significant drop in the illegal immigration coming through Arizona in the next month, Bush can always claim that it was more due to the 500 agents than the Minute Men. Just my observation.

However, it is nice to see the border tightening up for once. No complaints there.

[12B4S]

In reference to MS-13 threatening the Minute Men, it was on the news today that the border patrol was adding 500 new agents to the Arizona border. (2 days before the Minute Men start their patrols.)

This doesn't surprise me the least bit. The Bush administration has openly criticised the Minute Men as "vigilantes", choosing to side with the Mexicans (as usual) If there is a significant drop in the illegal immigration coming through Arizona in the next month, Bush can always claim that it was more due to the 500 agents than the Minute Men. Just my observation.

However, it is nice to see the border tightening up for once. No complaints there.

Yes, there will be 500 more agents commited for the border down here. Approx.150 immediately. The rest when they finish training (whenever that is) and the general opinion here is, the added manpower is a direct result of the Minute Man operation.
Thre is one other group who has decided to jump into the pot. That wonderful organization, The ACLU. Of course they will be there to watch the Minute Men and protect the illegals. Perhaps, the MS13 punks will mistake the ACLU pukes for the Minute Men. :D Then round them up(seeing how it was so nice of them to gather all together in the desert and ship them off to the area in Pakistan, where UBL supposedly is hiding. They're tough, they'll get him. :rolleyes:

[magician]

I do not buy any of it.

I think that it is all public relations bullshit.

I am extremely conflicted on this matter for a number of reasons, but I have to distill my feelings down to the basic reality, which is that our country is vulnerable, and we are not doing what is necessary to guarantee the security of the Republic.

I hate to say it....and I will sound like a hothead....but maybe it would be for the best if vigiliantes deployed on the border and abused economic migrants.

This might force our government to actually get off its ass and implement a viable policy, if only to preempt vigiliantes from engaging in abuses.

[The Reaper]

I think that the USG is bound not only by the need for migrant labor and the lib PC crowd, but also the need for Mexican oil.

The sooner this country develops an alternative fuel, the sooner we can deal with problems without having to worry about secondary considerations.

TR

[magician]

careful, brother.

you do realize that if we were not beholden to a finite, rapidly diminishing natural resource, that our entire national economic structure would change?

think about the implications.

If we do not need oil....we do not need:

1. cars that burn gasoline.
2. tankers that move huge amounts of crude oil over our oceans.
3. giant refineries.
4. oil platforms, and the entire infrastructure of the oil companies, which is dedicated to the exploration of areas for exploitation, and the systematic extraction of oil.
5. In fact....we would no longer need to care about what happens in the Middle East. We would no longer be concerned with the oil pipelines, the straits of Malacca, none of it. In fact...our entire military force structure could change.

Fortunes would be lost overnight. In fact...it is safe to say that entire national economies would be disrupted, and even at risk of collapse.

Personally, I think that it would be a beautiful thing....but I do not believe that the agencies that truly rule the world will ever permit it to happen, unless they are behind it, and they are able to dominate and control the next source of power.

(Oops...is my tinfoil hat showing?)

Found this on the Washington Times website--apropos of the first hijack of this thread.


'Heroes' poised for vigil on border

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Published April 2, 2005

TOMBSTONE, Ariz. -- More than 100 Minuteman Project volunteers clapped, shouted, waived American flags and stomped their feet during an old-fashioned revival-style meeting yesterday called to denounce President Bush and formally kickoff a 30-day blockade of the U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona.

"I'm proud of every single one of you," Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, told the cheering crowd inside the city's 120-year-old community center, once frequented by Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday.

"You are not vigilantes. You are heroes," said Mr. Tancredo, founding chairman of Team America, a political action committee dedicated to electing legislators sensitive to defending U.S. borders and protecting American jobs.

Bay Buchanan, chairwoman of Team America and sister of former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, received a standing ovation as she berated Mr. Bush for failing "our country."

"You have failed us, and you have failed our children, by continuing to let criminals and drugs come across this border," she said.

The rally, described as an orientation meeting, capped off a day of registration for the Minuteman volunteers, who will begin patrols of the border south of here on Monday to protest the lax immigration-enforcement policies of the administration and Congress.

The daylong event saw counterprotesters line the street outside the hall, American Indians dancing in native custom to a steady drumbeat and "Lady Liberty" twirling through one lane of the city's main street -- all under the watchful eye of dozens of Arizona police, rangers and sheriff's deputies.

Members of the press, many of them from Mexico, outnumbered the volunteers, with satellite trucks lining the street leading to Big Nose Kate's Saloon. "Legal observers" hired by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) also patrolled outside the hall.

The volunteers will gather again today and tomorrow for rallies at the U.S. Border Patrol stations in Naco and Douglas, where -- according to Minuteman organizer James T. Gilchrist -- "we will show our support for the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to protect our country despite a lack of manpower and resources."

The weekend rallies are a prelude to a monthlong border protest by more than 1,000 Minuteman volunteers that formally begins Monday and will focus on a 20-mile stretch of the San Pedro River Valley west of Naco and a remote border area west of Douglas.

The two regions have become favorite corridors for illegal aliens headed into the United States. Last year, Border Patrol agents in the Tucson sector, which includes Naco and Douglas, accounted for more than 40 percent of the 1.15 million illegal aliens apprehended nationwide.

The volunteers, many of whom will camp out in recreational vehicles and tents along the border, registered here yesterday and received their assignments, including guidelines prohibiting them from confronting illegal aliens they encounter on the border.

"We will not tolerate any confrontations by our members," Mr. Gilchrist, a retired California certified public accountant and a combat-wounded Vietnam veteran, told The Washington Times. "This protest is about the rule of law, and there will be no exceptions."

Several civil and human rights organizations have hired legal observers and teams of lawyers ready to file lawsuits against the volunteers if the illegal aliens' rights are abused.

But Mr. Gilchrist, during an interview at his border command post, said he expects that the volunteers are more likely to be the ones abused and has asked the FBI in Phoenix to ensure that their right to demonstrate is protected.

In a letter to the FBI, Mr. Gilchrist said efforts by the volunteers to conduct a peaceful political protest and rally have been threatened by the counterprotesters, adding that the ACLU has a "witch-hunt mentality."

FBI officials this week said they are committed to ensuring that no laws are violated during the border vigil, by either the Minuteman volunteers or those opposed to them.

The ACLU in Arizona could not be reached for comment.

Yesterday's registration saw numerous glitches, with Minuteman volunteers being asked to file new registration forms after a computer failure.


from : http://insider.washingtontimes.com/articles/print.php?StoryID=20050401-114206-1340r

[magician]

from : http://www.fayettevillenc.com/ap-state.php?story=66698

1. It seems that these good people are protesting that they now have to present a passport with a valid immigration stamp or visa in order to get a driver's license. It should not be any other way. I advocate no flexibility on this issue. If you do not have a visa, get the fuck out of the USA. If you cannot get a visa, stay home, or go somewhere else. America needs to get serious about this.

2. The second to the last paragraph in this article....makes me ill. Are these people aware that someone has to pay the bills when indigent patients show up at emergency rooms? In Thailand, if you do not have an insurance card, or if you are not wearing gold (I mean, if you are not literally wearing several baht in gold around your neck, or on your wrists and fingers), or if you do not have sufficient cash on your person to defray your initial treatment, or if you otherwise cannot immediately pay for treatment, they will literally leave you to bleed on the pavement outside the ER. There are no free lunches here, and there should be no free lunches in the USA. Not because Thailand is perfect. Shit, it is far from perfect. But there is a no-nonsense focus on the bottom line here. In an ideal world, we would all have universal and free health care, cradle to grave. It is not an ideal world. Get over it. Or legislate universal and free health care. Hell, I would vote for it. I would legalize marijuana, tax and regulate the shit out of it, and use the proceeds to pay for universal health care. This is on my agenda for when I become Emperor.

3. The final paragraph illustrates what I have been saying about guest worker programs. Setting up appropriately regulated guest worker programs means that you are able to dictate and verify a baseline level of accommodations and decent work conditions....and you are able to elevate these sorts of jobs beyond the level of human slavery. I have absolutely no respect for the sort of employers who treat other human beings in this way. Denying visitors access to migrant worker accommodations is nothing more than sweeping the abusive conditions under which these people are kept under the rug. Where in the hell is la migra?



Drivers licenses, other issues on table at Latino Day


The Associated Press
RALEIGH, N.C.


Several hundred Hispanics wearing stickers that read "I pay taxes" and carrying signs that read "adequate housing is a human right" turned out Wednesday for the second annual Latino Day at the Legislature.


Hispanics "want to contribute positively to the betterment of our state, North Carolina," Andrea Bazan-Manson, executive director of the advocacy group El Pueblo said to loud cheers.


Among the legislators who spoke was Rep. Danny McComas, R-New Hanover, who's Hispanic.


"It's great for you to be involved in the political process," he said. "It's great. It's part of the American system of government."


Several people were there to discuss specific issues _ farmworker housing, access to tuition aid or drivers' licenses _ but some spoke more subtly about the contributions of Hispanics to North Carolina and urged unity.


"All of us ... have come from someplace else in our history," said Rep. Alice Bordsen, D-Alamance.


Many in the crowd carried signs about drivers' licenses, a contentious issue in recent years.


In February 2004, the state Division of Motor Vehicles stopped accepting foreign passports without a U.S. immigration stamp, most foreign birth certificates and a popular Mexican identification card known as the matricula consular.


The DMV also stopped accepting tax records of any kind or birth and marriage certificates from countries other than the United States and Canada.


Standards for issuing licenses, which often serve as an official identification card, have become part of the debate over national security since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.


Rep. Ellie Kinnaird, D-Orange, told Latino Day participants she wants to assure they are able to apply for and receive licenses.


"I want to make sure you have access because this is a safety issue, because then you will have insurance," she said.


Luis Landaverde, 30, who works as a translator in Clinton, said access to drivers' licenses is his top concern.


"The Spanish people work hard to do whatever they have to do," he said. "I want them to give the drivers' licenses back. This is very important."


He said he was also concerned about how Hispanics are treated in hospitals since they often don't have health insurance. "Doctors don't give them attention because they have no insurance, and then they have no money to pay the bills," he said.


Stephanie Triantafillou of the Farmworkers Advocacy Network spoke in favor of Senate Bill 962, which revises the N.C. Migrant Housing Act for the first time in 16 years. State law now doesn't require growers to provide mattresses, phones, sufficient number of toilets and showers, or allow visitors access to migrant housing, she said.

[12B4S]

Yesterday here in AZ we had a group of latinos, do thier thing. The March for Dignity or some such crap. They were pissed about pending legislation, denying them (illegals) FREE college tuition in this sate! Another denying them, cut rates from the electric companies and a couple more. Damn, most in that crowd had to be illegals. What a great opportunity to round them up. Oh well.

A local radio station down here has the only reporter embedded with the Minute men. I'll post a link for anyone who is interested. As usual, you can't get the truth on what is really going on down here from the mainstream media.
http://www.kfyi.com/minuteman.html

Yesterday all the radios used by the Minutemen were jammed, still are. Only thing really working are ham radios and there aren't many of those. YUP, just some simple poor mexicans crossing the border, that somehow have the capability to jam the 2-ways.

[magician]

either I am increasingly joining the Tinfoil Hat Brigades, or there are readily understandable reasons why la migra does not swoop down on public protests and arrest all the illegals in the crowd. The fact that illegals have the audacity to assemble publicly and protest speaks volumes.

I am speechless that illegals believe that they have the right to discounted electricity, free tuition, driver's licenses, and other benefits of citizenship. Do they not realize that someone must pay, somewhere along the line? If the costs of these privileges are defrayed with public tax monies, then taxpayers are paying to host illegal migrants in their communities. Funds which could be allocated to educating American youth, improving highways, funding programs for the aged and the young alike....are diverted, even subverted, in a sort of theft. If illegal migrants are actually paying taxes....then good. They should then feel entitled to some benefits that accrue to taxpayers. If they want to enjoy all the benefits of citizenship...then they should become citizens. What is crucial, is that some degree of control be reimposed over the situation, and a guest worker program created, with inspection and enforcement agencies that enforce regulations on employers, and on migrants. It is a matter of security.

I do not blame illegal migrants for the current state of affairs. They merely want to create better lives, better opportunities for their children. I blame those who employ them under the table, pay them shit wages, and incarcerate them in subhuman housing, working them under abusive conditions. These wealthy people need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

the fact that many such employers have become rich exploiting other humans tells the tale: the rich donate to political parties and politicians, and it is these agents that call off federal agencies, and exert political pressure behind the scenes to create space for illegal migrants to fly below the radar.

now you tell me: am I certifiably nuts, or is this simplistic description of the situation accurate?

my fear is that we will wait, and prevaricate, and procrastinate, until we have multiple terrorist attacks on shopping malls, schools, and hospitals. When people ask their government, "how did these terrorists come to be among us?" And the answer is, "they waded across the Rio Grande like a million other mojados," what will we do then?

why are we waiting to be attacked?

our borders are wide open. It takes the "Minutemen" to raise this issue in the media?

[Roguish Lawyer]

the fact that many such employers have become rich exploiting other humans tells the tale: the rich donate to political parties and politicians, and it is these agents that call off federal agencies, and exert political pressure behind the scenes to create space for illegal migrants to fly below the radar.

now you tell me: am I certifiably nuts, or is this simplistic description of the situation accurate?

I am curious about your decision to use the term "exploit." Are these people taking these jobs involuntarily?

I do think you are a bit nuts on this topic. It is one thing to control borders for security reasons, have work permits, etc., but I see nothing wrong with using migrant labor. It is a win-win situation for both sides.

I have limited access to the Internet for a few more days, so I apologize if I do not respond promptly. Perhaps NDD and Greenhat will be along shortly. We have gone down this road before.

[Airbornelawyer]

Actually...those requirements are pretty standard.

In fact...I cannot think of any country off the top of my head that will allow a foreigner to just show up without a passport.

Requiring an entry visa merely means that visitors or immigrants need to enter the country through a checkpoint. I do not know of any country that does not care if folks just saunter across national borders with no controls.Currently, US citizens are not required to have a passport when travelling to or from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America (that is, by US law; each country might have its own entry requirements, but the US citizen does not need a passport to re-enter the US).

Canadian and Mexican citizens and Bermudan residents are not required to have a passport when entering the US.

The exemption for travel to and from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America will end on December 31, 2005, affecting US citizens and Bermudans. On December 31, 2006, the exemption that allows passport-free travel (by air or sea) to or from Mexico and Canada will end. By December 31, 2007, a passport will be required for all air, sea and land border crossings into the US.

British and Irish citizens do not need a passport to travel among Ireland, the UK, and the UK dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

Under the Schengen Agreement, travel among Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain and Sweden does not require a passport, although entry into them from a none-party generally does. I have landed at Frankfurt airport many times, shown my passport (but no visa) to enter Germany, and then driven to several of these countries, never having to show a passport. When I was on active duty, I didn't even need a passport when landing in Germany, the UK, Norway and Turkey, since a military ID qualifies as an alternative to a passport for entering NATO countries.

Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City are also part of the Schengen zone, since their borders are open to countries who are parties (Spain, France and Italy).

Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Switzerland have joined the Schengen Agreement, but have not yet implemented it. If and when Switzerland joins, Liechtenstein will also come in by default (currently, when driving in from Austria, you need to show a passport, but the border between Liechtenstein and Switzerland isn't even marked).

[magician]

I am curious about your decision to use the term "exploit." Are these people taking these jobs involuntarily?

I do think you are a bit nuts on this topic. It is one thing to control borders for security reasons, have work permits, etc., but I see nothing wrong with using migrant labor. It is a win-win situation for both sides.

To paraphrase "Jules" in Pulp Fiction, you raise a valid point.

Maybe I am "nutty." Hell, at my age, I am entitled.

;)

Ok, here is how I see it.

1. Economic conditions create a scenario whereby migrants from Mexico, or wherever, illegally cross our national borders to work illegally in jobs that Americans typically refuse to do, for wages that Americans typically decline.

2. No, migrants are not "forced" to do these jobs. They could stay home and frolic in the bucolic state of grace called poverty. They are compelled, by dint of their economic plight, to migrate to the US, and to seek employment in circumstances which Americans reject. Those are the jobs that are readily available to undocumented workers.

3. Like you, I see nothing fundamentally wrong with using migrant labor. I think that it is a "win-win" for both employer and employee. But there are several problems with the situation as it currently stands:

A. Such workers are often held in conditions which are akin to indentured servitude. This is not conspiracy theorizing. Some employers segregate workers into company compounds, feed them crap food, stuff them into substandard housing, force them to shop at company stores where necessities are overpriced, and subject them to dehumanizing and abusive work conditions precisely because illegal workers cannot readily complain to local labor boards, or police, or easily vote with their feet, once they are snared. I make a moral judgement here. I have been an employee, and I have been an employer. Yes, I have had to make payroll. I think that employers have a responsibility and a duty to create a "safe" environment for employees, and some consideration for their welfare is not just legally required, it is the moral thing to do. Many employers who hire migrant labor treat their workers like shit. I consider this contemptible. They do it because they can, and to maximize profits. I am not an enemy of profits, or of capitalism. I am an enemy of exploitation.

B. While somewhat exceptional, the above predicament would represent an extreme. Lesser degrees of inappropriate treatment occur more commonly, not rising to the level of abuse. Still, we are talking about jobs, and conditions, that are rejected by American citizens, for valid reasons. Because illegal workers are illegal, because they come to this country without benefit of visa or work permit, they naturally gravitate to such jobs. Workers who qualify for work permits and visas do different work. Better work. Better wages, better conditions. Employers who seek out illegals often do so because they are, as employers, flying below the radar, offering conditions of work which violate US labor laws.

C. Government policies do not reflect reality. The US government does not permit agricultural, construction industry laborers, and service industry workers, to come to America through official government checkpoints. For whatever reason, the USG turns them around. Here is a proposal: identify jobs that use migrant labor, subject them to oversight and inspection regimes, and certify that they comply with standard US labor laws. Offer these jobs to migrants, register them, and regulate their entrance to the country, their duration and conditions of stay, and either require their return to their home country upon completion of their work term, or offer a viable option for immigration and citizenship. I am not proposing that we engage in nuclear fusion here. I am proposing that the USG act like a government.

4. What we are talking about here is not just a security problem, though it is definitely that. I think that it is the security aspects of this situation which will serve to bring it into harsher focus, and result in more endeavors like the "Minuteman" project.

5. Fundamentally, I think that the USG needs to do the following:

A. Secure the borders.
B. Enforce labor laws.
C. Admit laborers under the provisions of work permits, regulated by visas.
D. Require compliance for access to services.

Now...if these ideas make me "nutty"......I am guilty as charged.

:)

Here is another article. Again, I am not seeking these out. I just come across them in the course of my daily surfing.

from : http://insider.washingtontimes.com/articles/print.php?StoryID=20050407-121530-9142r

Mexican cops warn migrants at border

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Published April 7, 2005

NACO, Ariz. -- Mexican police, humanitarian workers and military personnel are trying to dissuade migrants from illegally entering the United States until after a monthlong protest here against lax enforcement along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The Mexicans are telling the prospective border crossers that Minuteman Project protesters will hurt them when they enter Arizona, and also are moving the migrants away from the zone being patrolled by the protesters.

The Mexican government has been distributing a red flier headlined "¡Peligro!" meaning "danger," and featuring an icon of two crossed rifles. The flier warns readers that hundreds of "vigilantes," whom it says could be armed but are not part of the U.S. Border Patrol, will guard that segment of the border 24 hours a day all month.

Enrique Enriques Palafox, a commander of Grupo Beta, a Mexican government-funded humanitarian organization, said his group wants to protect the migrants and is willing to "terrify" them into delaying their journey.

"We know [the Minuteman volunteers] are armed and our job is to protect migrants," said Bertha de la Rosa, a coordinator for Grupo Beta, which yesterday loaded pickup trucks with migrants on the Mexican side of the border and relocated them.

A Mexican official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, yesterday said migration from Mexico has dropped by 50 percent along the 20-mile stretch of border that is being monitored by about 200 Minuteman volunteers.

Border Patrol officials have acknowledged a drop in the number of illegal aliens apprehended since the protest began, but said the reduction could also be attributed to the presence along the border here of Mexican police and military personnel.

"It doesn't matter whether the reason is that we are on the border or that the Mexican government has clamped down on their side because of us," Minuteman organizer Chris Simcox said.

"The object of our protest was to show that a presence on the border would significantly impact on the number of people crossing into the United States," he said.

"I think it is clear we have already shown that to be true," said Mr. Simcox, a newspaper publisher and founder of the Civil Homeland Division organization in Arizona.

Diego Padilla, spokesman for Gov. Eduardo Bours Castelo of the Mexican state of Sonora, says more than 40 Sonora State Preventive Police are working with the Mexican military and Grupo Beta to locate and move migrants from the border areas south of here to Agua Prieta, 15 miles east, near Douglas, Ariz.

Mr. Padilla said the Mexican government wants to prevent violence between the migrants and the Minuteman volunteers.
****Earlier this year, the Mexican government distributed about 1.5 million comic-book guides that warned Mexican nationals about the dangers of crossing illegally into the United States and offered tips on how to stay safe. It was published by Mexico's Foreign Relations Department.

But Mr. Simcox said no violent incidents had been reported during the first four days of the monthlong border protest -- a claim confirmed by the Cochise County Sheriff's Department.

Mr. Simcox also said that 176 illegal aliens have been spotted by the volunteers and reported to the Border Patrol since Saturday, and all have been apprehended.

A Mexican law-enforcement official who asked not to be identified told The Washington Times that many of the migrants rounded up in Mexico were not aware of the Minutemen until they arrived.

But the official said the alien smugglers, or "coyotes," were aware of the border vigil and collected their fees from the migrants in advance. The migrants are paying the coyotes about $1,000 each to be taken over the border.

Mr. Simcox and co-organizer James T. Gilchrist, a retired California certified public accountant, reminded protest leaders Tuesday that volunteers were not to confront illegal aliens only report their presence to the Border Patrol.

"We're not here to catch anyone, that's not our job," said Mr. Simcox, adding that while there had been no complaints regarding the Minuteman volunteers, those manning observation posts along the border would be reminded of the policy.

[magician]

from : http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0406Hispanicmarch05.html

Latinos walk for dignity
Protesters target Ariz. anti-immigrant bills


Yvonne Wingett
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 6, 2005 12:00 AM

They walked for different reasons, but they all had the same goals: opportunity and dignity.

For themselves and their parents. And for those that will follow their paths and cross Mexico's desert for work and opportunities in the United States.

More than 300 mostly Latino residents, students, day laborers, business owners and elected officials walked 25 miles on Tuesday in protest of proposed state legislation that they say would drive many undocumented immigrants deeper underground.

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Dignity Walk leaders hoped the march would bring international attention to the plight of immigrants in Arizona. Opponents said they should go home and march for rights there.

The walk began at 7 a.m. and stretched for a quarter of a mile. Demonstrators chanted si se puede, it can be done, as they walked from Mesa to Arizona State University and finally to the state Capitol.

"What's occurring in the Legislature should not go on," said Maria Alba, 25, of Mesa, who carried a poster in support of day-labor centers. "Our community has finally said 'enough is enough.' "

So have some Republican state lawmakers, who said they have sponsored legislation targeting the undocumented in response to the public's approval of anti-illegal immigration initiative Proposition 200 and to the federal government's unwillingness to "secure the borders."

Several bills advancing in the Legislature would deny public housing, a college education, publicly funded child care and utility assistance, among other services, to undocumented immigrants. Other bills would ban publicly funded day-labor centers and require immigrants to pay out-of-state college tuition.

"I will not pander to people in this country illegally," said Rep. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa. "Just like in hostage situations. You don't negotiate with the bad guys. You don't negotiate with illegals."

The mobilization comes at a crucial time. When tensions mount among recently arrived Mexicans, Arizona's Hispanic community and the general community over immigration and who should receive public benefits. When self-appointed border police camp out on Arizona's border to keep undocumented immigrants from crossing. And when voters, fed up by illegal immigration, passed Proposition 200 by a comfortable margin.

"I don't get (public) help, and I was born on this dirt," said Eddy Moscickis, 33, an El Mirage resident who watched the trail of marchers along Mesa's Main Street amid whistles and boos from passers-by.

"That right there," he pointed to the marchers. "To me, (that) is a waste of time."

The Dignity Walk was reminiscent of protests and marches in California after voters passed Proposition 187, similar to Proposition 200. The protest may not change the minds of lawmakers or their supporters, experts said. But its symbolism will likely raise awareness among segments of the community and gain momentum across the region, political experts said.

"What social movements always have to be concerned about is lasting attention," said Dan Brouwer, an assistant professor of communication at ASU and an expert in social movements and political tactics. "A march by itself can quickly fade in the public imagination. But a series of events that continue to bring the issue to people's minds is the most effective way to create the potential for persuasion."

The marchers came from all segments of the community. Some were undocumented, some legal permanent residents. Others were high school or college students whose parents brought them to the United States when they were children. Still others are first-generation Hispanics born out of the Chicano movement.

.

"As long as they're doing the dirty work, it's OK for undocumented immigrants to be here," said Dorelyn Kunkel, director of a charter school who joined the walk at Apache Boulevard and Rural Road. "But if they want to get an education, no? It's creating an underclass of people."

March organizer Salvador Reza said through a bullhorn that he will call for businesses and corporations across the nation to boycott Arizona and book their conferences elsewhere if the bills become law.

"We'll make them stop," said Reza, operator of north Phoenix's Macehualli Work Center "We have an economic power that they fear. Somos un pueblo sin fronteras, we are a people without borders."

[12B4S]

That is the march I referred to earlier magician. Yeah they "are people without borders". Most, illegally just happen to cross U.S borders. They get here and automatically feel 'entitled' everything for free, gimme,gimme. That March should have been busted and all illegals deported. Hell, why do we even have any propositions in the AZ legislature regarding this anyway. The illegals are NOT entitled to squat, except for a return to trip to mexico. That salvador reza said alot more that is not in that article. Something along the lines of.... we don't want to be part of the U.S. or citizens, we just want what we are entitled too... or some such crap. BTW, the Arizona Republic is just another lib rag, normally referred to out here as the Arizona Repugnant.

In reference to the Washington Times article, that is just about all true. They are bussing, well, bad term. Some Minutemen postioned just west of Douglas have witnessed what they describe as the people being moved by what look more like military type trucks headed toward Douglas, perhaps further east. Another thing, as far as the Minutemen being armed. Something like one out of fifteen or so are carrying sidearms and only those with permits No rifles are allowed to be carried.

The Chris Simcox referred to in the article publishes a paper called the Tombstone Tumbleweed. In that paper, he exposes the illegal immigrant problem, but takes it much further. That is to the higher ups. Politicians and specifically, the officers heading up the Border Patrol. The agents on the ground are happy to have the Minutemen there. I heard part of a radio interview today with Chris Simcox. He wears a bulletproof vest where ever he goes, has a bodygaurd and has had to change his kids last name, in an effort to protect them.
About a year or so ago, northbound on I-10 (which runs between Tucson and Phx) there was a running gun battle between two groups of coyotes at 9-10 in the morning, with automatic weapons. Seems one group stole the other group's illegals. This was just comming into the southern suburbs of Phx, on a busy interstate. The same time this was occurring, vincente fox was in town with our wonderful Gov. Another friggin lib. Neither that day commented on that incident. Not to mention the rapes commited by the coyotes to the women they are smuggling or the dead ones found packed and locked in trucks every now and then or the tremendous amount of drugs brought into the country. I'd go on and on but it gets even harder to type what I want when i'm pissed.

Posted by magician
5. Fundamentally, I think that the USG needs to do the following:

A. Secure the borders.
B. Enforce labor laws.
C. Admit laborers under the provisions of work permits, regulated by visas.
D. Require compliance for access to services.

I agree, so I'm crazy too.

[magician]

It is the nexus between abusive employers and corrupt politicians and bureaucrats that chaps my ass.

I do not blame the poor for seeking a better life for themselves and their children.

I blame the greed of seedy entrepreneurs for creating the underground labor market.

If there were no shitty jobs, if the USG enforced its own labor laws, there would be no demand for illegal workers. Simple.

The USG here is complicit and corrupt in two specific regards:

1. It does not secure our borders, making a nightmare terrorism scenario more feasible. This is malfeasance on the part of our government.

2. It does not enforce labor laws that are already on the books. No new regulations or legal codes are required. All that is required is enforcement of current laws. What we are talking about here is corruption, plain and simple.

Here is how it works:

A. Rich business owners who are rich because they exploit undocumented workers donate to political action committees, election campaign funds, and to political parties.

B. In return for this largess, politicians exert pressure on bureaucrats, who after all, merely want to not roil the waters so that they can make it to retirement.

C. Inadequate resources are hence focused on border security, and the guys at the ground level quickly fall into a mentality of doing the best that they can with what they have. They, too, learn to avoid rocking the boat, as they have mortgages, and college tuition to finance for their children.

D. Hence USG corruption and complicity in the nexus of the guilty, as outlined in 1. and 2. above. Without exception, every single bureaucrat that I ever met was worried first and foremost about his mortgage, and secondarily about college tuition for his or her children. They absolutely feared taking a moral stand on any issue, lest they jeopardize their jobs.

Again, my fear is that it will take a terrorist event of mammoth proportions to catalyze the public uproar that will finally make politicians make bureaucrats do their jobs--alienating their wealthy benefactors in the private sector in the process.

This is why the nexus of exploitative employers and corrupt officials chaps my ass: greed and dereliction of duty.

Yup....I am crazy as a loon.

;)

[Roguish Lawyer]

Houdini:

I do not think you are crazy. In fact, we are generally in agreement. I think we need to accept that there is a need for migrant labor here, and a desire of migrants to work here. We need to allow the work, and regulate it as needed. Generally speaking, however, I don't like too much regulation by the government. I think markets self-regulate most things pretty well over time. Not everything, to be sure, but most things.

Do you really think we can completely secure borders of the length we are talking about? (There are two, don't forget.) Would it be worth the expense? I think it is a pipe dream, but I am no expert.

RL

[vsvo]

Senator McCain speaking to a poli sci class at his alma mater yesterday.

Article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8051-2005Apr21.html)

"Just by coincidence, Senator Teddy Kennedy and I, in the last couple of days, after several months of negotiations, have reached an agreement for an immigration proposal that we will be putting out next week,..., our proposal is along the lines of make them pay a fine of a couple thousand dollars, make them work for three years, and after three years they can get in the back of the line for a green card and then eventually become citizens."

"Don't reward them for breaking the law, but also give them an opportunity to become citizens," McCain said.

[aricbcool]

So will they be "entitled" to bankruptcy protection if they don't have the money to pay the fine? :rolleyes:

--Aric

[lrd]

Currently, US citizens are not required to have a passport when travelling to or from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America (that is, by US law; each country might have its own entry requirements, but the US citizen does not need a passport to re-enter the US).

Canadian and Mexican citizens and Bermudan residents are not required to have a passport when entering the US.

The exemption for travel to and from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America will end on December 31, 2005, affecting US citizens and Bermudans. On December 31, 2006, the exemption that allows passport-free travel (by air or sea) to or from Mexico and Canada will end. By December 31, 2007, a passport will be required for all air, sea and land border crossings into the US.

Just a note: after 9/11 we didn't have to have a passport to travel in and out of Canada, but we did have to have our birth certificate to get back across the border.