Origin of the phrase "nous défions" [Archive]

TRUST

02-16-2004, 20:42

I am interested in the origin/history of the phrase "nous défions", which is associated with SF. I have conducted online searches, but with negative results. I know a little about it, but would like confirmation and a better understanding. I've most often seen it on SF artwork and 'unofficial insignia' clothing items.

Thanks in advance.
TRUST

Razor

02-16-2004, 21:12

"We dare"

Airbornelawyer

02-16-2004, 21:21

"We defy"

"We dare" is "Osons", which I believe is the motto of Canadian airborne forces. A number of French units whose heritage goes back to the WW2 SAS use the related "Qui ose, gagne", or "Who dares, wins."

Tracy

02-17-2004, 00:42

Mott Lake, late '70s, Project Bluelight; which later became the SOT Course.

I have no idea who in Bluelight had the idea; or if it came from elsewhere. I remember seeing the motto publicly on T-Shirts AFTER Bluelight stood down and became a school house.

Razor

02-17-2004, 16:50

Oops, you're correct AL, 'we dare' would be 'osons'. My bad. 'Nous defion' can also be translated as 'We challenge'.

TRUST

02-20-2004, 16:07

Razor, Airbornelawyer, Tracy:

Thanks for the replies and information.

The info I was given was that the term was used by WW2 French resistance movements. It was adopted by OSS elements that worked with the French, then carried over to SF when those same OSS elements founded SF from the ashes of OSS.

Below are some examples of artwork, patches, and clothing items w/ the design.

TRUST

NousDefionsDoc

02-20-2004, 16:16

Good thread TRUST

Cazador 01

02-24-2004, 22:32

Once I get my stuff out of storage this weekend, I will post a mola from Panama in our favorite motif.

TRUST

02-25-2004, 23:02

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Good thread TRUST
Thanks NDD, and thanks for the opportunity to be here.

Cazador 01,
Ok, I did some research and now that I know what a 'mola' is :D I'm looking fwd to having a glimpse.

TRUST

Desert Fox

02-26-2004, 20:24

Hi,
As a French speaking Canadian I am able to ''translate'' the signification of ''nous defions''.
This is hard to explain, but this is a mix of ''we dare", "we threaten", "we defy".
This is not just daring, but also defy and challenging everything.
"Nous defions" sounds like an arrogant challenge to everybody and everything.

Hope it helped

Ambush Master

02-26-2004, 20:37

Originally posted by Desert Fox
Hi,
As a French speaking Canadian I am able to ''translate'' the signification of ''nous defions''.
This is hard to explain, but this is a mix of ''we dare", "we threaten", "we defy".
This is not just daring, but also defy and challenging everything.
"Nous defions" sounds like an arrogant challenge to everybody and everything.

Hope it helped

Many THANKS for that !!! Yup, that Title definitely FITS !!!! :D

NousDefionsDoc

02-26-2004, 20:49

Damn straight.

Doc

12-23-2004, 16:12

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 20:34

Oops, you're correct AL, 'we dare' would be 'osons'. My bad. 'Nous defion' can also be translated as 'We challenge'.

Somewhere I've got my "Nous Defions" patch. If I can find it, I'll scan it and post the pic.

For now I'm gonna try to post a pic of SFODA-522, when we were instructors at Mott Lake, SOT-D.

OK, having trouble with the pic-error message says my pic is too large-don't know how to reduce it.

If anyone can host it, I'll send the pic by email. If it works, I got pics from SOAR past and Crhistmas pics from SFA ChXV, featuring COL Bob Howard, MOH, as guest speaker!!!

So alla y'all 'puter wonks hep a Brutha out!!!!!!!

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 21:16

You can send it to me at XXX@XXX and I'll post it for you in your original post.

Thanx Bro, Shot Out!!!!!!!!

:)

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 21:35

How's that?

Yeah, cool, jes thot I had it labelled, so I'll send you who everyone is.

Thanx NDD, 'preciate it!!!

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 21:44

NDD-

2nd shot out!!!!

Toby

NousDefionsDoc

01-16-2005, 21:51

Anytime Brother.

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 22:06

I can tell y'all that the folks at the flag pole absolutely hated that logo!!!!!!

On many occaision, the 1st Bn, 5SFG CO, LTC william X Knowlton (who SOT-D was under for Admin stuff) came out to the Lake with CSM Larry Strawdor to try and get us to "get rid of that logo". It was painted on our helipad PSP in black and white, and could be seen for miles from the air.

They axt us to remove the offending logo, but we never did.

Paul Poole gave an impassioned speech on why the logo should stay. That seemed to appease the head shed folk!!

NousDefionsDoc

01-16-2005, 22:17

Is that the same Paul Poole that worked at the USIS office as a retiree?

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 22:43

Is that the same Paul Poole that worked at the USIS office as a retiree?

Not sure 'bout dat!!!!!!

:)

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 22:46

Somewhere I've got my "Nous Defions" patch. If I can find it, I'll scan it and post the pic.

For now I'm gonna try to post a pic of SFODA-522, when we were instructors at Mott Lake, SOT-D.

OK, having trouble with the pic-error message says my pic is too large-don't know how to reduce it.

If anyone can host it, I'll send the pic by email. If it works, I got pics from SOAR past and Christmas pics from SFA ChXV, featuring COL Bob Howard, MOH, as guest speaker!!!

So alla y'all 'puter wonks hep a Brutha out!!!!!!!

This pic was taken circa '82.

ODA-522, SOT-D, Mott Lake.

Standing-SSG Tim Brooks, SSg Fred Cox, SSG Mike Keevil, SSG Brad Arvidsson.

Kneeling-SFC Don Ringley, SFC Toby Todd, CPT Steve Aspera, SFC Gilbert Woods (Tm SGT), SFC Larry White.

Team Sergeant

01-17-2005, 10:50

This pic was taken circa '82.

ODA-522, SOT-D, Mott Lake.

Standing-SSG Tim Brooks, SSg Fred Cox, SSG Mike Keevil, SSG Brad Arvidsson.

Kneeling-SFC Don Ringley, SFC Toby Todd, CPT Steve Aspera, SFC Gilbert Woods (Tm SGT), SFC Larry White.

Toby,

I was on ODA-514 in 83. (Out of all those names I only remember Don Ringley.)

TS

TerribleTobyt

01-17-2005, 20:40

Toby,

I was on ODA-514 in 83. (Out of all those names I only remember Don Ringley.)

TS

Top-

I believe the team from CoA/1/5 was ODA-513, could be wrong tho. Paul Poole was the TS, Ben Butler, Gene Whitley, Jack (CRS last name, but doubled as the armorer at SOT-D), acuppola others.

There was also a 7th Gp team, as well. Ratman was on that team, and he and I worked Stress Reaction.

Geez, I suddenly feel old!!!!! :(

Toby

Team Sergeant

01-17-2005, 21:10

Top-

I believe the team from CoA/1/5 was ODA-513, could be wrong tho. Paul Poole was the TS, Ben Butler, Gene Whitley, Jack (CRS last name, but doubled as the armorer at SOT-D), acuppola others.

There was also a 7th Gp team, as well. Ratman was on that team, and he and I worked Stress Reaction.

Geez, I suddenly feel old!!!!! :(

Toby

Nope. you're dead on.

(How the hell do you remember all those names?)

If I remember correctly, 7th Group took over after 5th Gp at Mott Lake??

SGM Hall was SGM for A-1-5 while I was there, they used to call him "Coach".

TS

TerribleTobyt

01-17-2005, 21:52

Nope. you're dead on.

(How the hell do you remember all those names?)

If I remember correctly, 7th Group took over after 5th Gp at Mott Lake??

SGM Hall was SGM for A-1-5 while I was there, they used to call him "Coach".

TS

I guess cuz, 'sides my tour in SOG, time spent at the Lake was my favorite time in the Army.

Dint know SGM Hall, or any other team from CoA. Hell dint even know very many of the teams from BoB. Frankly, we SOT folks dint spend alotta time back at the flag pole. :)

Check your PM.

Toby

BamBam

01-18-2005, 12:53

Toby,

Man I know all those folks, hell I had forgotten just how ugly all you guys were. In the early 90's Brad was one of my Team Sergeants in 3rd Group.

TerribleTobyt

01-18-2005, 20:21

Toby,

Man I know all those folks, hell I had forgotten just how ugly all you guys were. In the early 90's Brad was one of my Team Sergeants in 3rd Group.

Bam(hehehe)/Guys-

The Genesis of this photo is a whole 'nuther story. MAJ Lynn Stull, CO, CoB/1/5, was movin on, and the movers and shakers of CoB decided to throw a goin away party for all to remember.

Gary Lusterman had the bright idea of each A team supplying 2 photos each; 1 photo would be as posted on these pages; the other would be a team "moon" shot.

Each team supplied these pics and someone procured a great piece of cherry wood to mount the pics. This "plaque" was presented to MAJ and Mrs Stull with appropriate fanfare. Mrs Stull's comment was "Geez, I actually recognize somma those assholes!!!"

Thats my story, and I'm stickin tuit!!!!!!!!

:) ;)

NousDefions794

03-20-2005, 13:26

A few years ago I came accross a former Blue Light member who told me that the motto Nous Defions was established in the 5th Special Forces Group. During training with the SAS it started off as was a response to their motto "Who Dares Wins". For some reason "We Dare" was translated to French. Defier translates = to defy, to brave, to challenge, to dare.

Today the symbol and motto are used with SF DA/CQB teams and a few select companies.

If anyone has more information please post. I would like to know more about the motto (reason, explanation, and history behind it) and the symbol that goes with it (skull, arrows and dagger).

Bill Harsey

03-20-2005, 21:22

ND794,
Welcome aboard and good post. I didn't know this phrase went back to the OSS days.

If Col. Rex Applegate was still around, I'd ask him if he knew about this.

NousDefions794

03-21-2005, 11:17

Bill,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure what you mean by "OSS days". To my understanding it came from the 5th Grp Blue Light Teams out at Mott Lake. Take care,

ND794

NousDefionsDoc

03-21-2005, 11:30

I looked on the net and didn't find anything worth while. My guess is that SF brought it over from Maquis during or after WWII.

Be nice to find a definitive source.

Roguish Lawyer

03-21-2005, 11:40

Be nice to find a definitive source.

Yeah, you gonna change your name if it really originated in 5th Group? :munchin

Bill Harsey

03-21-2005, 12:28

Bill,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure what you mean by "OSS days". To my understanding it came from the 5th Grp Blue Light Teams out at Mott Lake. Take care,

ND794
Post No. 6 on this thread alludes to possible information claiming that the motto could have been used by elements of the OSS.
Since the OSS was disbanded right after WW2 I referred to that era as "those days".

Nous Defions is a powerful statement.

NousDefions794

03-21-2005, 12:55

Bill,

I totally missed that post (so much for being a trained observer). Thanks. I am now even more intrigued. Take care,

ND794

NousDefionsDoc

03-21-2005, 12:55

Yeah, you gonna change your name if it really originated in 5th Group? :munchin
Instigator. Agitator.

Roguish Lawyer

03-21-2005, 13:07

Instigator. Agitator.

Guilty as charged! LMAO

C'mon, you have to admit that was funny. :D

Doc

03-21-2005, 19:21

Bill,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure what you mean by "OSS days". To my understanding it came from the 5th Grp Blue Light Teams out at Mott Lake. Take care,

ND794

Welcome aboard NousDefions794!

Doc

Utah Bob

05-18-2009, 10:28

mojaveman

05-18-2009, 17:29

Reading this thread sure brang back some memories.

As a member of 3/5th SFG I frequently was at Mott Lake in '85 when A-3-5 was running the show. Honestly, I enjoyed going out there and getting away from the garrison. All of the instructors in A Co. who wore the black shirt with the little white skull over their left breast looked too cool.

Fiercely Loyal

05-18-2009, 19:28

Interesting thread. The difficulty in adopting foreign phrases sometimes is the inability to translate them literally into English.
Of course Nous Defions has a much better ring to it than "We'll Kick Your Ass" I suppose.;)

Well I actually had been wondering what the phrase for "we'll kick your ass" is in French. I never have heard that from them in my dealings with them. Now that we know that SF has taken it from them, they are probably trying to figure out who was on duty at the time it was lost and now what they will due in lieu of loosing that phrase.

tst43

05-19-2009, 07:20

Anyone at Mott Lake in '82-'83 recall SSG Beauregard? Now that was an interesting guy.

Utah Bob

05-19-2009, 08:17

What's French for "Our Gs will kick your ass"? ;)

Matt B

05-19-2009, 09:58

Well I actually had been wondering what the phrase for "we'll kick your ass" is in French. I never have heard that from them in my dealings with them. Now that we know that SF has taken it from them, they are probably trying to figure out who was on duty at the time it was lost and now what they will due in lieu of loosing that phrase.

"Nous allons vous botter le cul" that's the french version for "We'll kick your ass"

Utah Bob

05-19-2009, 13:02

Anyone at Mott Lake in '82-'83 recall SSG Beauregard? Now that was an interesting guy.

For some reason, the most interesting people in the Army seem to be SF.
I wonder why that is.:D

exsquid

05-21-2009, 13:40

Try explaining "nous defions" to a bunch of spanish speakers when you barely hablo.

x/S

Sinister

02-03-2010, 16:29

Malcolm M. ("Fat Mac") once asked me, "What was that on your T-shirt? Vas deferens?"

Nearly spit my beer up through my nose.

Bastard 6

02-18-2010, 03:57

My first exposure to the term "NOUS DEFIONS" was during my time in the "schoolhouse", out by the Nasty Nick.. I completed SFOQC in 1975, was selected from 1st Bn 75th Infantry (Ranger). There was no SFA&S back then. You either passed the interview & the schools & then were assigned a group or you were dropped. As a 1LT I was first with 1st Bn Bravo 7SFG(A). I learned then that it's a French term that roughly translates to " We Dare, We Challenge, We Defy". It's a very strong term for daring. Like the Brits use the word 'Bloody". As far as I know SF has been using it since the Nam days, when they used a lot of French words. As The Rangers bark their motto "Rangers Lead The Way", and 101st Abn barks "Air Assault", etc. SF barks "Nous Defions" rather than our "DOL" official motto. I'll break out my foot locker and find some of my 1975-2000 patches, shirts, etc to post.

Sayin Hey, to any of the original 1st SOC & JSOC troopers out there.. From
"Bastard Six".. LT.COL E.J. Passarelli (Passy).

LongWire

02-18-2010, 04:21

Sayin Hey, to any of the original 1st SOC & JSOC troopers out there.. From
"Bastard Six".. LT.COL E.J. Passarelli (Passy).

Sir with all due respect I would like to reintroduce you to the rules here.......Thanks

http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474
http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452

Green Light

03-01-2010, 16:34

If I recall correctly, SFC Greg Daily from ODA-552 (who was a commercial artist before coming back in the army) was the originator of the patch. I'm pretty sure he was the one who did it.

He also came up with the two original designs for the HALO wings MFF committee was next door to B-2-5 and 552 was always over there trying to get on lifts. Greg did some artwork for them and they asked him to come up with a design. We sat in the team room coming up with different designs. He went through a bunch of designs until they came up with two. One had "upswept" wings, the other was pretty much the design that we have now. I think Ft Rucker didn't want anything that looked like aviator wings, so we got the "diving" wings.

Green Light

03-01-2010, 16:40

SF barks "Nous Defions" rather than our "DOL" official motto.

I don't remember much "barking" in SF. :rolleyes:

Logan

03-02-2010, 17:28

My assignment after finishing the first 180A class was to B-2-5 which had just taken over Mott Lake in summer 84. Larry Hickerson and I were the only two Warrants at SOT at the time. Spent 4 years there until Group prepped to move to Ft Campbell.
The first time I remember seeing a "nous defions" sign was on the street in front of the Group Headquarters in the 70s. It was in response to newly formed Delta's recruiting effort (we called them Charlie’s Angles). They advertised with “We Dare You to Dare” in english and a sign was put up with..... WE DARE using the words “nous defions” by Group folks.
Until then the logo with the word "nous defions" on it was a Blue Light unit logo that became the SOT school logo.

CSM-H

03-03-2010, 08:01

Toby, I was on the 7th Grp team from Aug 80 to Jan 82, First before I forget it was Jack Pope you were thinking about, and what about Tiny Young, and Elmer Adams. As for 725: Mike Brown, John Holhouse, Wayne Malick, John Humphries, C. W. Evans, Larry (?), Walt (?) later MSG Harry. I was told the Nous Defions was a response to the SAS, Those who dare win, thus "we dare". Also another story was that the symbol was on the ground so the "satelitte" could see it.....I think Paul told me that :). Anyway it was a hell of a place, very fond memories.......don't remember Ratman, but that could be after I left. RIP Paul Poole. Earnie

Top-

I believe the team from CoA/1/5 was ODA-513, could be wrong tho. Paul Poole was the TS, Ben Butler, Gene Whitley, Jack (CRS last name, but doubled as the armorer at SOT-D), acuppola others.

There was also a 7th Gp team, as well. Ratman was on that team, and he and I worked Stress Reaction.

Geez, I suddenly feel old!!!!! :(

Toby

Mike

03-04-2010, 01:39

Green Light

03-04-2010, 05:42

I did SF 66-70 with 68-70 RVN.

Never barked at anybody and never used any French other than the occaisional "Beucoup VC."
It indicated more VC than the average Montagnard had fingers.

It must have entered through same crack as the hoowa stuff did later.

I read all over the place that "Hooah" is an army tradition dating back to (fill in the blank). Baloney. Didn't hear it said until I came back from Germany in 82 and never heard an SF guy say it. Sounds stupid. When I left Fayetteville, even the 82nd was saying it. What happened to "ALL THE WAY, SIR?"

Utah Bob

03-04-2010, 10:27

ZonieDiver

03-04-2010, 13:23

I read all over the place that "Hooah" is an army tradition dating back to (fill in the blank). Baloney. Didn't hear it said until I came back from Germany in 82 and never heard an SF guy say it. Sounds stupid. When I left Fayetteville, even the 82nd was saying it. What happened to "ALL THE WAY, SIR?"

Ditto... and the only response I ever heard that went beyond that was a commander who insisted we respond to the "All the way!" with "And then some"!

No barking (that would have been met with derision in ANY outfit I was in).

One of the things I liked about SF was there was very little, if any, of that "rah rah," shaved head, wall-locker inspection, conventional airborne bs.

But that's just me...

Dozer523

03-04-2010, 14:47

Ditto...

But that's just me...
me too.:D

troy2k

01-03-2011, 15:47

I can tell y'all that the folks at the flag pole absolutely hated that logo!!!!!!

-TerribleTobyt

...the more they stay the same.

Hooligan

01-03-2011, 20:17

I read all over the place that "Hooah" is an army tradition dating back to (fill in the blank). Baloney. Didn't hear it said until I came back from Germany in 82 and never heard an SF guy say it. Sounds stupid. When I left Fayetteville, even the 82nd was saying it. What happened to "ALL THE WAY, SIR?"
While back down at Bragg about 2000 timeframe I observed one of the training classes in morning formation....One of the Cadre was pacing up and down giving a motivation speech. He said "Your supose to be SF ya gotta think outside the box HOOAH!" ...and about 30 some odd voices went "HOOAH" in reply.....I could only stand and blink and wonder if the SF spirits that be were raging at the dying of the light....

CSM-H

01-04-2011, 07:44

Didn't read the whole thread..... already responded to this, now that is CRS......Toby, the Jack you spoke of was Jack Pope....killed a guy on New Years eve and got away with it... never quit figured that one out. Had a habit of putting a red dot on you at night while working the "hallway and windows" :) CSM-H

Top-

I believe the team from CoA/1/5 was ODA-513, could be wrong tho. Paul Poole was the TS, Ben Butler, Gene Whitley, Jack (CRS last name, but doubled as the armorer at SOT-D), acuppola others.

There was also a 7th Gp team, as well. Ratman was on that team, and he and I worked Stress Reaction.

Geez, I suddenly feel old!!!!! :(

Toby

Richard

01-04-2011, 08:04

Never saw it before I left Group for OCS in Dec 78 - it was out there at The Lake when I reported into 1-7th as a 2LT in Sep 79 and I went out there to see a few old friends (Paul Poole, Don Ringley, Gilbert Woods).

Earnie - Ratman was in A/1-7th (MAJ Gray/CPT Logan) during the time you were on 725 and then left for 3-7th about the time I left for IOAC.

As far as the 'Hooah' goes - what BS - and contrary to our concept of Quiet, Confident, Capable. I can only assume it leeched in from the Ranger Batts when the SFQC cadre failed to properly adjust the head-space and timing of all the mid-grade Rangers seeking to move to SF around that time.

Richard :munchin

longrange1947

01-04-2011, 11:06

Bennett

01-05-2011, 12:18

My Special Forces Advanced Reconnaissance, Target Analysis and Exploitation Techniques Course was the last to use Mott Lake training area. Once I got to C/1/10 CIF, it was used always. We have the pins and t-shirts in our SFA QM here in the Springs. And yes I have it incorporated in one of my tats. It does represent SF in so many ways and tends to piss off those who don't challenge or defy.

Habu-MFFI 175

01-06-2011, 18:36

Herman Ballard was another one that was on the team with Paul Poole. I remember several of those guys.

In the early 80's 1/7 and 2/7 both sent a team to work at Mott Lake. During that time frame we dug out old tires and stuff from around the civilian neighborhoods and build "Michelin City". Everything was geared on and around the "S&K" Range...(Stevens & Kramer).

After a couple of months the powers to be figured they would only leave 1 team from the 7th and that was the team from 1/7.

Those were the good old days...:)

Richard

01-06-2011, 18:40

Those were the good old days...

Before SOT, Mott Lake was the isolation facility for pre-mission prep for 7th SFGA teams traveling hither and yon - did a couple of short stints out there then.

We could practice water ops, had ranges close by, plenty of space for practicing team SOPs and could always get a UH1/CH47 or C7A and practice our Abn SOPs on St Mere. Those were some good days...;)

Richard

Cazador 01

05-17-2018, 15:52

35024

smithchang

02-11-2021, 11:53

Please review the board rules, post an introduction, and fill out your profile before posting again.

Do not post product links without Mod / Admin approval.

TR

JJ_BPK

02-11-2021, 13:13

smithchang This is not an acceptable start.

When you asked to join this site, you were sent an email tasking you to
1)post an introduction
2)fill in your profile

Do not post again until you have completed the tasks assigned.

Also,, I would caution you to read the site rules. Your link is a product advertisement and has nothing to do with the thread topic.

https://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452

Consider yourself warned. :munchin

Joker

02-11-2021, 18:49

TR and JJ_BPK are nice. If I saw it first, I would bounce someone. :munchin

smithchang

02-12-2021, 01:20

You are discussing awesomely specially i like the reply of "Richard". Welldone mate :)

Old Dog New Trick

02-12-2021, 05:50

You are discussing awesomely specially i like the reply of "Richard". Welldone mate :)

Dude, you are quickly living up to the term Nous Défions?

Fill out your profile and introduce yourself or you will find the moderators will challenge your daring defiance with a quick boot.