Origin of the phrase "nous défions" [Archive]

TRUST

02-16-2004, 21:42

I am interested in the origin/history of the phrase "nous défions", which is associated with SF. I have conducted online searches, but with negative results. I know a little about it, but would like confirmation and a better understanding. I've most often seen it on SF artwork and 'unofficial insignia' clothing items.

Thanks in advance.
TRUST

Razor

02-16-2004, 22:12

"We dare"

Airbornelawyer

02-16-2004, 22:21

"We defy"

"We dare" is "Osons", which I believe is the motto of Canadian airborne forces. A number of French units whose heritage goes back to the WW2 SAS use the related "Qui ose, gagne", or "Who dares, wins."

Tracy

02-17-2004, 01:42

Mott Lake, late '70s, Project Bluelight; which later became the SOT Course.

I have no idea who in Bluelight had the idea; or if it came from elsewhere. I remember seeing the motto publicly on T-Shirts AFTER Bluelight stood down and became a school house.

Razor

02-17-2004, 17:50

Oops, you're correct AL, 'we dare' would be 'osons'. My bad. 'Nous defion' can also be translated as 'We challenge'.

TRUST

02-20-2004, 17:07

Razor, Airbornelawyer, Tracy:

Thanks for the replies and information.

The info I was given was that the term was used by WW2 French resistance movements. It was adopted by OSS elements that worked with the French, then carried over to SF when those same OSS elements founded SF from the ashes of OSS.

Below are some examples of artwork, patches, and clothing items w/ the design.

TRUST

NousDefionsDoc

02-20-2004, 17:16

Good thread TRUST

Cazador 01

02-24-2004, 23:32

Once I get my stuff out of storage this weekend, I will post a mola from Panama in our favorite motif.

TRUST

02-26-2004, 00:02

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Good thread TRUST
Thanks NDD, and thanks for the opportunity to be here.

Cazador 01,
Ok, I did some research and now that I know what a 'mola' is :D I'm looking fwd to having a glimpse.

TRUST

Desert Fox

02-26-2004, 21:24

Hi,
As a French speaking Canadian I am able to ''translate'' the signification of ''nous defions''.
This is hard to explain, but this is a mix of ''we dare", "we threaten", "we defy".
This is not just daring, but also defy and challenging everything.
"Nous defions" sounds like an arrogant challenge to everybody and everything.

Hope it helped

Ambush Master

02-26-2004, 21:37

Originally posted by Desert Fox
Hi,
As a French speaking Canadian I am able to ''translate'' the signification of ''nous defions''.
This is hard to explain, but this is a mix of ''we dare", "we threaten", "we defy".
This is not just daring, but also defy and challenging everything.
"Nous defions" sounds like an arrogant challenge to everybody and everything.

Hope it helped

Many THANKS for that !!! Yup, that Title definitely FITS !!!! :D

NousDefionsDoc

02-26-2004, 21:49

Damn straight.

Doc

12-23-2004, 17:12

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 21:34

Oops, you're correct AL, 'we dare' would be 'osons'. My bad. 'Nous defion' can also be translated as 'We challenge'.

Somewhere I've got my "Nous Defions" patch. If I can find it, I'll scan it and post the pic.

For now I'm gonna try to post a pic of SFODA-522, when we were instructors at Mott Lake, SOT-D.

OK, having trouble with the pic-error message says my pic is too large-don't know how to reduce it.

If anyone can host it, I'll send the pic by email. If it works, I got pics from SOAR past and Crhistmas pics from SFA ChXV, featuring COL Bob Howard, MOH, as guest speaker!!!

So alla y'all 'puter wonks hep a Brutha out!!!!!!!

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 22:16

You can send it to me at XXX@XXX and I'll post it for you in your original post.

Thanx Bro, Shot Out!!!!!!!!

:)

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 22:35

How's that?

Yeah, cool, jes thot I had it labelled, so I'll send you who everyone is.

Thanx NDD, 'preciate it!!!

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 22:44

NDD-

2nd shot out!!!!

Toby

NousDefionsDoc

01-16-2005, 22:51

Anytime Brother.

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 23:06

I can tell y'all that the folks at the flag pole absolutely hated that logo!!!!!!

On many occaision, the 1st Bn, 5SFG CO, LTC william X Knowlton (who SOT-D was under for Admin stuff) came out to the Lake with CSM Larry Strawdor to try and get us to "get rid of that logo". It was painted on our helipad PSP in black and white, and could be seen for miles from the air.

They axt us to remove the offending logo, but we never did.

Paul Poole gave an impassioned speech on why the logo should stay. That seemed to appease the head shed folk!!

NousDefionsDoc

01-16-2005, 23:17

Is that the same Paul Poole that worked at the USIS office as a retiree?

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 23:43

Is that the same Paul Poole that worked at the USIS office as a retiree?

Not sure 'bout dat!!!!!!

:)

TerribleTobyt

01-16-2005, 23:46

Somewhere I've got my "Nous Defions" patch. If I can find it, I'll scan it and post the pic.

For now I'm gonna try to post a pic of SFODA-522, when we were instructors at Mott Lake, SOT-D.

OK, having trouble with the pic-error message says my pic is too large-don't know how to reduce it.

If anyone can host it, I'll send the pic by email. If it works, I got pics from SOAR past and Christmas pics from SFA ChXV, featuring COL Bob Howard, MOH, as guest speaker!!!

So alla y'all 'puter wonks hep a Brutha out!!!!!!!

This pic was taken circa '82.

ODA-522, SOT-D, Mott Lake.

Standing-SSG Tim Brooks, SSg Fred Cox, SSG Mike Keevil, SSG Brad Arvidsson.

Kneeling-SFC Don Ringley, SFC Toby Todd, CPT Steve Aspera, SFC Gilbert Woods (Tm SGT), SFC Larry White.

Team Sergeant

01-17-2005, 11:50

This pic was taken circa '82.

ODA-522, SOT-D, Mott Lake.

Standing-SSG Tim Brooks, SSg Fred Cox, SSG Mike Keevil, SSG Brad Arvidsson.

Kneeling-SFC Don Ringley, SFC Toby Todd, CPT Steve Aspera, SFC Gilbert Woods (Tm SGT), SFC Larry White.

Toby,

I was on ODA-514 in 83. (Out of all those names I only remember Don Ringley.)

TS

TerribleTobyt

01-17-2005, 21:40

Toby,

I was on ODA-514 in 83. (Out of all those names I only remember Don Ringley.)

TS

Top-

I believe the team from CoA/1/5 was ODA-513, could be wrong tho. Paul Poole was the TS, Ben Butler, Gene Whitley, Jack (CRS last name, but doubled as the armorer at SOT-D), acuppola others.

There was also a 7th Gp team, as well. Ratman was on that team, and he and I worked Stress Reaction.

Geez, I suddenly feel old!!!!! :(

Toby

Team Sergeant

01-17-2005, 22:10

Top-

I believe the team from CoA/1/5 was ODA-513, could be wrong tho. Paul Poole was the TS, Ben Butler, Gene Whitley, Jack (CRS last name, but doubled as the armorer at SOT-D), acuppola others.

There was also a 7th Gp team, as well. Ratman was on that team, and he and I worked Stress Reaction.

Geez, I suddenly feel old!!!!! :(

Toby

Nope. you're dead on.

(How the hell do you remember all those names?)

If I remember correctly, 7th Group took over after 5th Gp at Mott Lake??

SGM Hall was SGM for A-1-5 while I was there, they used to call him "Coach".

TS

TerribleTobyt

01-17-2005, 22:52

Nope. you're dead on.

(How the hell do you remember all those names?)

If I remember correctly, 7th Group took over after 5th Gp at Mott Lake??

SGM Hall was SGM for A-1-5 while I was there, they used to call him "Coach".

TS

I guess cuz, 'sides my tour in SOG, time spent at the Lake was my favorite time in the Army.

Dint know SGM Hall, or any other team from CoA. Hell dint even know very many of the teams from BoB. Frankly, we SOT folks dint spend alotta time back at the flag pole. :)

Check your PM.

Toby

BamBam

01-18-2005, 13:53

Toby,

Man I know all those folks, hell I had forgotten just how ugly all you guys were. In the early 90's Brad was one of my Team Sergeants in 3rd Group.

TerribleTobyt

01-18-2005, 21:21

Toby,

Man I know all those folks, hell I had forgotten just how ugly all you guys were. In the early 90's Brad was one of my Team Sergeants in 3rd Group.

Bam(hehehe)/Guys-

The Genesis of this photo is a whole 'nuther story. MAJ Lynn Stull, CO, CoB/1/5, was movin on, and the movers and shakers of CoB decided to throw a goin away party for all to remember.

Gary Lusterman had the bright idea of each A team supplying 2 photos each; 1 photo would be as posted on these pages; the other would be a team "moon" shot.

Each team supplied these pics and someone procured a great piece of cherry wood to mount the pics. This "plaque" was presented to MAJ and Mrs Stull with appropriate fanfare. Mrs Stull's comment was "Geez, I actually recognize somma those assholes!!!"

Thats my story, and I'm stickin tuit!!!!!!!!

:) ;)

NousDefions794

03-20-2005, 14:26

A few years ago I came accross a former Blue Light member who told me that the motto Nous Defions was established in the 5th Special Forces Group. During training with the SAS it started off as was a response to their motto "Who Dares Wins". For some reason "We Dare" was translated to French. Defier translates = to defy, to brave, to challenge, to dare.

Today the symbol and motto are used with SF DA/CQB teams and a few select companies.

If anyone has more information please post. I would like to know more about the motto (reason, explanation, and history behind it) and the symbol that goes with it (skull, arrows and dagger).

Bill Harsey

03-20-2005, 22:22

ND794,
Welcome aboard and good post. I didn't know this phrase went back to the OSS days.

If Col. Rex Applegate was still around, I'd ask him if he knew about this.

NousDefions794

03-21-2005, 12:17

Bill,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure what you mean by "OSS days". To my understanding it came from the 5th Grp Blue Light Teams out at Mott Lake. Take care,

ND794

NousDefionsDoc

03-21-2005, 12:30

I looked on the net and didn't find anything worth while. My guess is that SF brought it over from Maquis during or after WWII.

Be nice to find a definitive source.

Roguish Lawyer

03-21-2005, 12:40

Be nice to find a definitive source.

Yeah, you gonna change your name if it really originated in 5th Group? :munchin

Bill Harsey

03-21-2005, 13:28

Bill,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure what you mean by "OSS days". To my understanding it came from the 5th Grp Blue Light Teams out at Mott Lake. Take care,

ND794
Post No. 6 on this thread alludes to possible information claiming that the motto could have been used by elements of the OSS.
Since the OSS was disbanded right after WW2 I referred to that era as "those days".

Nous Defions is a powerful statement.

NousDefions794

03-21-2005, 13:55

Bill,

I totally missed that post (so much for being a trained observer). Thanks. I am now even more intrigued. Take care,

ND794

NousDefionsDoc

03-21-2005, 13:55

Yeah, you gonna change your name if it really originated in 5th Group? :munchin
Instigator. Agitator.

Roguish Lawyer

03-21-2005, 14:07

Instigator. Agitator.

Guilty as charged! LMAO

C'mon, you have to admit that was funny. :D

Doc

03-21-2005, 20:21

Bill,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure what you mean by "OSS days". To my understanding it came from the 5th Grp Blue Light Teams out at Mott Lake. Take care,

ND794

Welcome aboard NousDefions794!

Doc

Utah Bob

05-18-2009, 12:28

mojaveman

05-18-2009, 19:29

Reading this thread sure brang back some memories.

As a member of 3/5th SFG I frequently was at Mott Lake in '85 when A-3-5 was running the show. Honestly, I enjoyed going out there and getting away from the Garrison. All of the instructors in A Co. who wore the black shirt with the little white skull over their left breast looked too cool.

Fiercely Loyal

05-18-2009, 21:28

Interesting thread. The difficulty in adopting foreign phrases sometimes is the inability to translate them literally into English.
Of course Nous Defions has a much better ring to it than "We'll Kick Your Ass" I suppose.;)

Well I actually had been wondering what the phrase for "we'll kick your ass" is in French. I never have heard that from them in my dealings with them. Now that we know that SF has taken it from them, they are probably trying to figure out who was on duty at the time it was lost and now what they will due in lieu of loosing that phrase.

tst43

05-19-2009, 09:20

Anyone at Mott Lake in '82-'83 recall SSG Beauregard? Now that was an interesting guy.

Utah Bob

05-19-2009, 10:17

What's French for "Our Gs will kick your ass"? ;)

Matt B

05-19-2009, 11:58

Well I actually had been wondering what the phrase for "we'll kick your ass" is in French. I never have heard that from them in my dealings with them. Now that we know that SF has taken it from them, they are probably trying to figure out who was on duty at the time it was lost and now what they will due in lieu of loosing that phrase.

"Nous allons vous botter le cul" that's the french version for "We'll kick your ass"

Utah Bob

05-19-2009, 15:02

Anyone at Mott Lake in '82-'83 recall SSG Beauregard? Now that was an interesting guy.

For some reason, the most interesting people in the Army seem to be SF.
I wonder why that is.:D