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Trip_Wire (RIP)
03-15-2005, 20:45
Note: I thought it was interesting to hear the General's statement on the heavy Tanks and Bradleys: :lifter

Went to an AUSA dinner last night at the Ft. Hood Officers' Club to hear a speech by MG Pete Chiarelli, CG of the 1st Cav Div. He and most of the Div. have just returned from Iraq. Very informative and, surprise, the Mainstream Media (MSM) isn't telling the story. I was not there as a reporter, didn't take notes but I'll make some the points I remember that were interesting, surprising or generally stuff I had not heard before. It was not a speech per se. He just walked and talked, showed some slides and answered questions. Very impressive guy.

1. While units of the Cav served all over Iraq, he spoke mostly of Baghdad and more specifically Sadr City, the big slum on the eastern side of the Tigeris River. He pointed out that Baghdad is, in geography, is about the size of Austin. Austin has 600,000 to 700,000 people. Baghdad has 6 to 7 million people.

2. The Cav lost 28 main battle tanks. He said one of the big lessons learned is that, contrary to doctrine going in, M1-A2s and Bradleys are needed, preferred and devastating in urban combat and he is going to make that point to the JCS next week while they are considering downsizing armor.

3. He showed a graph of attacks in Sadr City by month. Last Aug-Sep they were getting up to 160 attacks per week. During the last three months, the graph had flatlined at below 5 to zero per week.

4. His big point was not that they were "winning battles" to do this but that cleaning the place up, electricity, sewage, water were the key factors. He said yes they fought but after they started delivering services that the Iraqis in Sadr City had never had, the terrorist recruiting of 15 and 16 year olds came up empty.

5. The electrical "grid" is a bad, deadly joke. Said that driving down the street in a Humvee with an antenna would short out a whole block of apt. buildings. People do their own wiring and it was not uncommon for early morning patrols would find one or two people lying dead in the street, having been electrocuted trying to re-wire their own homes.

6. Said that not tending to a dead body in the Muslim culture never happens. On election day, after suicide bombers blew themselves up trying to take out polling places, voters would step up to the body lying there, spit on it, and move up in the line to vote.

7. Pointed out that we all heard from the media about the 100 Iraqis killed as they were lined up to enlist in the police and security service. What the media didn't point out was that the next day there 300 lined up in the same place.

8. Said bin Laden and Zarqawi made a HUGE mistake when bin Laden went public with naming Zarqawi the "prince" of al Qaeda in Iraq. Said that what the Iraqis saw and heard was a Saudi telling a Jordanian that his job was to kill Iraqis. HUGE mistake. It was one of the biggest factors in getting Iraqis who were on the "fence" to jump off on the side of the coalition and the new gov't.

9. Said the MSM was making a big, and wrong, deal out of the religious sects. Said Iraqis are incredibly nationalistic. They are Iraqis first and then say they are Muslim but the Shi'a - Sunni thing is just not that big a deal to them.

10. After the election the Mayor of Baghdad told him that the people of the region (Middle East) are joyous and the governments are nervous.

11. Said that he did not lose a single tanker truck carrying oil and gas over the roads of Iraq. Think about that. All the attacks we saw on TV with IEDs hitting trucks but he didn't lose one. Why? Army Aviation. Praised his air units and said they made the decision early on that every convoy would have helicopter air cover. Said aviators in that unit were hitting the 1,000 hour mark (sound familiar?). Said a convoy was supposed to head out but stopped at the gates of a compound on the command of an E6. He asked the SSG what the hold up was. E6 said, "Air , sir." He wondered what was wrong with the air, not realizing what the kid was talking about. Then the AH-64s showed up and the E6 said, "That air sir." And then moved out.

12. Said one of the biggest problems was money and regs. There was a $77 million gap between the supplemental budget and what he needed in cash on the ground to get projects started. Said he spent most of his time trying to get money. Said he didn't do much as a "combat commander" because the war he was fighting was a war at the squad and platoon level. Said that his NCOs were winning the war and it was a sight to behold.

13. Said that of all the money appropriated for Iraq, not a cent was earmarked for agriculture. Said that Iraq could feed itself completely and still have food for export but no one thought about it. Said the Cav started working with Texas A&M on "ag" projects and had special hybrid seeds sent to them through Jordan. TAM analyzed soil samples and worked out how and what to plant. Said he had an E7 from Belton, TX (just down the road from Ft. Hood) who was almost single-handedly rebuilding the ag industry in the Baghdad area.

14. Said he could hire hundreds of Iraqis daily for $7 to $10 a day to work on sewer, electric, water projects, etc. but that the contracting rules from CONUS applied so he had to have $500,000 insurance policies in place in case the workers got hurt. Not kidding. The CONUS peacetime regs slowed everything down, even if they could eventually get waivers for the regs.

There was more, lots more, but the idea is that you haven't heard any of this from anyone, at least I hadn't and I pay more attention than most. Great stuff. We should be proud. Said the Cav troops said it was ALL worth it on Jan. 30 when they saw how the Iraqis handled election day. Made them very proud of their service and what they had accomplished.

Pete
03-15-2005, 21:00
. I was not there as a reporter, didn't take notes but I'll make some the points I remember that were interesting, surprising or generally stuff I had not heard before..


Damn good read. Are you sure there's not a little reporter way back in the woodpile somewhere?

Pete

Gypsy
03-15-2005, 21:00
Excellent information here Trip_Wire, thanks. Damn skippy we should be proud.

ghuinness
03-15-2005, 21:09
5. The electrical "grid" is a bad, deadly joke. Said that driving down the street in a Humvee with an antenna would short out a whole block of apt. buildings. People do their own wiring and it was not uncommon for early morning patrols would find one or two people lying dead in the street, having been electrocuted trying to re-wire their own homes.

.

Very informative.
Thanks for posting.

jatx
03-16-2005, 05:03
Thanks for the great post!

ROTCNY
03-16-2005, 07:31
Thanks for the Information, Sir. Great Read.

dennisw
03-16-2005, 17:14
Thanks for the post. I would like to share this with a friend if you're okay with that.

Roguish Lawyer
03-16-2005, 17:42
I liked that. Are those with knowledge in agreement on all points?

BMT (RIP)
03-16-2005, 18:17
I brought this point up about air cover on another list. I was told air cover was unneeded, UAV's could do a better job and cover a larger area.

BMT

The Reaper
03-16-2005, 18:27
I brought this point up about air cover on another list. I was told air cover was unneeded, UAV's could do a better job and cover a larger area.

BMT

Unless you need them to shoot at something.

An Apache is not just up there to keep an eye out.

TR

Doc
03-16-2005, 18:38
Unless you need them to shoot at something.

An Apache is not just up there to keep an eye out.

TR

The Apache.

It's a really nice piece of hardware.

I always liked eyes above me with the ability to punish the wicked.

Doc

BMT (RIP)
03-16-2005, 18:48
TR and Doc, Very valid points. I used the same points on a Sunday morning at Quan Loi RVN with Chief OP-35.
I told Col. Jack Isler(RIP) we needed to replace our O1E's with OV-10's. OV-10's had 7.62 in the wings and the rocket pods could carry a full load of HE. FAC didn't need smoke because we could not use TAC air, might scar the ground you know!! Shortly after I departed the Launch Site they got OV-10's.

BMT

Trip_Wire (RIP)
03-16-2005, 20:50
Thanks for the post. I would like to share this with a friend if you're okay with that.

Feel free to do that!
:D

ghuinness
03-17-2005, 20:17
Unless you need them to shoot at something.

An Apache is not just up there to keep an eye out.

TR

TR, I have some questions, somewhat related to this topic.

I inferred from the post that "electrical grid" is in reference to FCS. To me FCS resembles the development being pursued by IDF for low-intensity-warfare. While I understand your comment about air support, do you not see a need for UAV's to complement the communication voids in an urban environment? Based on some of the reports by the 4th ID about how Technology failed them, don't you think UAV's are necessary?

The Reaper
03-17-2005, 20:28
TR, I have some questions, somewhat related to this topic.

I inferred from the post that "electrical grid" is in reference to FCS. To me FCS resembles the development being pursued by IDF for low-intensity-warfare. While I understand your comment about air support, do you not see a need for UAV's to complement the communication voids in an urban environment? Based on some of the reports by the 4th ID about how Technology failed them, don't you think UAV's are necessary?

I do not think that was his reference to the FCS. It is obvious to me that he meant the electrical power generation and distribution system. As in, "touch the wire, and get your ass fried, extra crispy."

You are driving a truck hauling 60,000 pounds of JP-4. Do you want air cover that can shoot back at BGs, or a UAV that can relay streaming video of you being hit with an RPG and rolling out of the truck like Johnny Storm, the Human Torch, for the day's Five O'Clock Follies?

I think UAVs have a purpose. Escorting convoys in Indian country is not one of them.

TR

brewmonkey
03-17-2005, 20:49
A good friend of mine is the OP guy for 2-7 Cav and we got some really good SITREP's from him while they were in country. For those who know McDude from other places it is his BIL.

ghuinness
03-17-2005, 21:01
I do not think that was his reference to the FCS. It is obvious to me that he meant the electrical power generation and distribution system.

You are driving a truck hauling 60,000 pounds of JP-4. Do you want air cover that can shoot back at BGs, or a UAV that can relay streaming video of you being hit with an RPG and rolling out of the truck like Johnny Storm, the Human Torch?

I think UAVs have a purpose. Escorting convoys in Indian country is not one of them.

TR
Respectfully, I took his comment to mean that he didn't want an RF network with 20' antenna's on the top of the tanks/HMMV's. The extra baggage caused problems.

With respect to air support communication, the 4th ID had problems receiving information. They were moving so fast they outran transmission speeds. For example, " at Objective Peach, Lt. Col. Ernest Rock Marcone, a battalion commander with the 69th Armor of the Third Infantry Division, was almost devoid of information about Iraqi strength or position.....There is zero information getting to me. Someone may have known above me, but the information didnt get to me on the ground. Marcones men were ambushed repeatedly on the approach to the bridge".

I was curious about your opinion,
thanks

The Reaper
03-17-2005, 21:17
I think you are reading too much into his statement.

His comments about the grid were exactly that, comments about the HN infrastructure, and nothing more.

No one but you has commented on this thread about UAV commo support. The CG certainly did not mention it. I have been in some bad spots and bad commo is part of the fog of war. The relays may help with some of it, but I will trade you ten commo shots for a rocket pod hovering in overwatch. All of the toys foster an overreliance and are prone to failure with Murphy waiting in the wings.

Frankly, for all of the hoopla and money spent, I do not see FCS and technology as the key to this war, or the ones in that region that are going to follow. This is get down and get dirty grass roots HUMINT and Infantry work.

Just my .02, based on my limited experience.

TR

Ambush Master
03-17-2005, 21:28
Here's something worth reading !! The UAV definitely has it's place, but in a Passive Role not in a Dynamic (you Will Die if it fails) Mode !!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1214542.html

Trip_Wire (RIP)
03-17-2005, 21:51
I have to agree with TR once again! I would perfer a Apache, Snake or a gunship of some type over some robot. Hey! M ay be a C-130 Specter would be nice too! "Puff the magic dragon." :D

Ambush Master
03-17-2005, 22:10
I have to agree with TR once again! I would perfer a Apache, Snake or a gunship of some type over some robot. Hey! M ay be a C-130 Specter would be nice too! "Puff the magic dragon." :D

Suggest that you re-read what I said. When used in a Passive Mode i.e. Recon, they have proven Extremely Valuable !!! The Guns over your Head can NEVER be replaced.

Read the article. You will learn something !!!

Later
Martin

ghuinness
03-17-2005, 22:10
I think you are reading too much into his statement.
TR

Maybe - but I see items 2, 5, 11 and 12 related to FCS. I genuinely believed my questions pertained to the post.

Here's something worth reading !! The UAV definitely has it's place, but in a Passive Role not in a Dynamic (you Will Die if it fails) Mode !!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1214542.html

Thanks. However, based on what little I know, it appears to me that UAV's and other technology are expected to take on more dynamic roles.

My .02

The Reaper
03-17-2005, 22:21
Maybe - but I see items 2, 5, 11 and 12 related to FCS. I genuinely believed my questions pertained to the post.

Thanks. However, based on what little I know, it appears to me that UAV's and other technology is expected to take on more dynamic roles.

My .02

I don't know what you are reading, to find all of the FCS matters. I see 2., survivability and firepower of the Abrams MBT, 5., a comment on the danger of the dilapidated HN electric grid, 11. Army Aviation providing helicopter air cover security for ground convoys, 12., his fight for cash and the ability of the American Army NCOs.

If anything, his comments are an argument against the resources going into the FCS.

UAVs in more dynamic roles? Right....

Let me know when the UAVs can haul a M230A1 30 mm chain cannon (up to 1,200 rds), 2 stub wings with 4 hardpoints and 2 wingtip rails, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-92 Stinger, 8 AGM-114 Hellfire, AGM-122 Sidearm, or TOWs, 70 mm rocket pods, and 127 mm rockets.

Till then, I'll stick with the armed RW aircraft with my buddies flying it.

Do you have a lot of experience reading AARs and gleaning specified and implied tasks?

TR

Roguish Lawyer
03-17-2005, 22:27
I would like AH-64 escort through the traffic in this city and my hometown. That would RULE! LMAO

Ambush Master
03-17-2005, 22:32
Thanks. However, based on what little I know, it appears to me that UAV's and other technology are expected to take on more dynamic roles.
My .02

How little you know is in Direct Proportion to how much Aerial Artillery you have brought down from the Heavens in and around your OWN POSITION !!!!

Believe me, when you are without commo, under attack, and the VERY FOG of War has totally engulfed your ass, you do not want to have to COUNT on some video-junky, who's just trying to get to the end of his shift, so's he can go and play "Real Video" games!!! I've directed fire with HAND SIGNALS and Panels to the men in the air, that were as much in the fight as I was, not setting in an air-conditioned trailer 1/2 way around the World.

Reality needs to be WELL grounded here !!!!

All RPV's have their place, but for now, they are in their Infancy on the Battlefield !!!

Later
Martin

ghuinness
03-17-2005, 22:36
Do you have a lot of experience reading AARs and gleaning specified and implied tasks?

TR

No, but I have been reading the senate hearings and any MOUT documents I can find.

Ambush Master
03-17-2005, 22:49
No, but I have been reading the senate hearings and any MOUT documents I can find.

This was your response to TR, how about responding to this:

"How little you know is in Direct Proportion to how much Aerial Artillery you have brought down from the Heavens in and around your OWN POSITION !!!!"


Along with the remainder of my post ??? You have ZERO basis for your assumptions, except for hearsay and no experience !!

Later
Martin

ghuinness
03-17-2005, 22:59
You have ZERO basis for your assumptions, except for hearsay and no experience !!

Later
Martin

PM inbound, if that is okay?

The Reaper
03-17-2005, 23:01
No, but I have been reading the senate hearings and any MOUT documents I can find.

Wow!!

Impressive creds! Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently as well?

g, I just finished eight years of working successfully directly for General Officers at and above the 1st Cav CG's pay grade, count a couple as close personal friends, have 25 years serving in this man's Army, a Masters in Military Arts and Science (History concentration) and not to toot my own horn, but I think I have a pretty good perspective of what they mean when they speak at functions like this.

There are topics on this board that I know very little about, and would yield to you on telecommunications, but it is a bit annoying at this stage of my career to have to argue transformation, FCS, and GO intent with a rank amateur.

Please reread all of the above posts, including the CG's comments and consider what you are getting into before you dig your hole here any deeper.

You are being accorded significant latitude here because of your history. Newbies, try this at your own risk.

TR

Ambush Master
03-17-2005, 23:06
PM inbound, if that is okay?

PM to your Heart's content. I'm starting to feel as if I'm having a Duel with an unarmed opponent !!!!

Martin

Trip_Wire (RIP)
03-18-2005, 01:42
Suggest that you re-read what I said. When used in a Passive Mode i.e. Recon, they have proven Extremely Valuable !!! The Guns over your Head can NEVER be replaced.

Read the article. You will learn something !!!

Later
Martin


Huh! I read the article. I have no problem with recon with UAVs, they have done well in that area; however, I was agreeing with TR on the fact that I would rather have manned gunships escorting my convoy, then UAVs. You seem to agree with that, so what are you telling me? Did I miss something? :rolleyes:

Razor
03-18-2005, 09:41
UAVs used for tactical ISR are nice-to-haves, but they don't (and never will) replace a living, breathing bad-ass gunship pilot who can snoop, poop and shoot. If the desired result is to provide more robust communications (or imagery, or GPS accuracy, or...), then the High Altitude Airship is a much better platform. Having a model airplane buzzing around with limited orbit time comes in a far second.

ghuinness
03-19-2005, 18:56
If anything, his comments are an argument against the resources going into the FCS.

TR

TR,
Maybe I was saying it all wrong, but your comment was exactly what I thought when I read the post which is why I had a question.

I'm done.

my .02