View Full Version : New Q Course POI
BMT (RIP)
03-12-2005, 06:05
http://www.paraglideonline.net/indexSFschool3-10-05.shtml
BMT
http://www.paraglideonline.net/indexSFschool3-10-05.shtml
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Guys,
This is only my opinion but I think there is only so much you can learn in a class room. Sometimes you just got to get out there and do it. Kinda' the Senior/Jumior/Mentor thing.
No Beret and Tab until after SERE and Language School? OK, OK maybe give them the Beret and Tab after SERE. But by the time they get to Language School they should see a little of the benifits from all the trainnng.
OK, off the soapbox now.
Pete
The Special Forces Medical Sergeant course however, will continue to be longer than the other specialties moving from 93 weeks to 86 weeks.
Here's an admission; I don't know if I could make it through the new program. I've heard it's even tougher now than it ever was. Now with 7 weeks chopped off, it's got to be a smoker.
Good luck lads.
Doc
Dustin03
03-12-2005, 08:03
I've heard words about land being bought in south MS, and La for SF training. supposed to be close to the Stennis rocket center on the coast.
Anybody heard about this, or if this has something to do with the training being changed up?
I am actually in the first class that is going to endure the course using the new system. The only thing they have told us for sure so far is an organizational issue. We are going to be broken down into student ODA's. Obviously us medics will not be able to stay with the same ODA through out training, but that is one thing they are trying to work out... The other three mos have been adjusted to be the same length. As I go through I would be more then happy to give a heads up on any changes to the course, as long as they don't violate OPSEC.
Kevin
"Modularization of the pipeline will include providing a greater number of iterations for each major block of training"
Iteration: to utter or do again; repeat.
I am curious as to what this means. Possibly material being covered more than once in order to better learn it?
NousDefionsDoc
03-12-2005, 10:30
Here's an admission; I don't know if I could make it through the new program. I've heard it's even tougher now than it ever was. Now with 7 weeks chopped off, it's got to be a smoker.
Good luck lads.
Doc
I don't doubt you would. Not for a second.
As for the changes, it is what it is. Those that make it will make it no matter what they do to the course. Looks like a move back to the tradition of RS being last. Good. Army training should end with an FTX combining all skill sets. Not sitting in a classroom listening to recordings.
I am glad they made language part of the pipeline. Language is important to establishing rapport. And rapport is key to the mission. I hope they are including culture training in the language module.
I don't really understand what they are cutting in the Delta course. But I have no doubt they will continue to graduate the finest soldiers the world has ever known.
NousDefionsDoc
03-12-2005, 10:34
"Modularization of the pipeline will include providing a greater number of iterations for each major block of training"
Iteration: to utter or do again; repeat.
I am curious as to what this means. Possibly material being covered more than once in order to better learn it?
Iteration is a fancy word for go 'round, class, cycle, turn. Nothing nefarious. :)
AmericanPride
03-12-2005, 13:21
I hope they are including culture training in the language module.
They told us they are planning on implementing an "Immersion" program for us in Language school. At somepoint you will spend time in an area key to your language. They mentioned even sending guys overseas for languages such as German. As for us Arabic students, New York or Dearborn, MI. Everything seems kind of so so at the moment but I'll keep you updated if you would be interested to know.
NousDefionsDoc
03-12-2005, 13:50
Just my opinion, but an immersion program is useless without an understanding of grammar and the basics of the language. I would do an immersion program after language school and one year of working in the AOR. It will provide a big leap in skills, after the basics are mastered.
Sink or swim doesn't work with languages, both sides learn to compensate to much just to get past the frustration.
The new SF training model will take into account a Soldier’s training and experience to develop a personalized program with multiple subjects taught concurrently, much like a college curriculum. For example, a Soldier who is already proficient in a foreign language may bypass the language instruction portion of the program and graduate up to eight weeks sooner.
I seem to recall doing exactly this back in 1997. New, old, new...whatever.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-13-2005, 06:22
Just my opinion, but an immersion program is useless without an understanding of grammar and the basics of the language. I would do an immersion program after language school and one year of working in the AOR. It will provide a big leap in skills, after the basics are mastered.
Sink or swim doesn't work with languages, both sides learn to compensate to much just to get past the frustration.
Couldn't agree more. Damn, just the differences in intonation, culture, idioms are enough to screw the pooch when it comes to getting your point across. My first trip south of the Mason-Dixon line when I first entered the military was enough of a challenge and we all supposedly spoke the same language. Even my grandkids speak with phrases that need a handbook or pointee-talkee cards to understand.
Jack Moroney-still wondering what the meaning of the word "is" is.
magician
03-13-2005, 07:45
what I would not give to be a young man and go again.
NousDefionsDoc
03-13-2005, 09:33
what I would not give to be a young man and go again.
But knowing what we know now...
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-13-2005, 09:53
what I would not give to be a young man and go again.But knowing what we know now...
Stop It!!! You two are killing me, WTF-I must be a friggin' fossil.
Jack Moroney
Intruder
03-14-2005, 17:57
We just found out today that we're leaving April 4th for Phase 2, rather than the May 16th we were led to believe. As such, I happened to read that article while in the TACs office today. Does anybody know specifics for the sequence of events? Rumor is (yes, I know..) SERE starts immediately after SUT. Then from SERE, directly into Phase 3....
I believe we're being put into our 'ODAs' tomorrow morning. I say that because we seem to be left in the dark most of the time. Shouldn't our TACs keep us more informed? We only seemed to find out because we asked about it, and his answer was along the lines of "oh ya, by the way.."
:boohoo I'm not trying to bitch. We just expected to be informed of what was going on with our training. If they don't know, thats cool, I understand. But shouldn't they at least say that?
Shhhhhhh! It's a test.
It is not enough that you remain flexible. You must now become fluid. Like a puddle of water on the table ready to move in any direction at the slightist tilt.
Pete
NousDefionsDoc
03-14-2005, 18:08
Shouldn't our TACs keep us more informed?
Consider yourself lucky. If it was me, I wouldn't even talk to you. :p
You need the ability to thrive in an ambiguous environment. Remember many of the tasks in SFAS?
Ambush Master
03-14-2005, 18:12
Shouldn't our TACs keep us more informed? We only seemed to find out because we asked about it, and his answer was along the lines of "oh ya, by the way.."
:boohoo I'm not trying to bitch. We just expected to be informed of what was going on with our training. If they don't know, thats cool, I understand. But shouldn't they at least say that?
Ever wonder why it is called "The Fog of War" ??? Get used to it and learn to treat it like a way of life and you'll maybe make it to a Yarborough !!!
Sheesh !!!!
Martin
NousDefionsDoc
03-14-2005, 18:12
Shhhhhhh! It's a test.
It is not enough that you remain flexible. You must now become fluid. Like a puddle of water on the table ready to move in any direction at the slightist tilt.
Pete
Just fluid? What happened to gaseous? The Q Course used to be hard. ;)
Intruder
03-14-2005, 18:53
:o
I knew better than to say anything. Need to trust my instincts......
Roger, Out.
:o
I knew better than to say anything. Need to trust my instincts......
Roger, Out.
Intruder;
It's not what you said it's how you said it. The way you said it came out as whining and sniveling. You could have started out the same way but ended up with "But hey, it don't matter, I'm on the truck just as quick as they say jump."
All that "tell us, let us know" crap....... :boohoo
Pete
Bill Harsey
03-14-2005, 19:26
Couldn't agree more. Damn, just the differences in intonation, culture, idioms are enough to screw the pooch when it comes to getting your point across. My first trip south of the Mason-Dixon line when I first entered the military was enough of a challenge and we all supposedly spoke the same language. Even my grandkids speak with phrases that need a handbook or pointee-talkee cards to understand.
Jack Moroney-still wondering what the meaning of the word "is" is.
I have no business posting in this thread Jack BUT, speaking of that Mason-Dixon line, I've taught forging steel in the Appalachian mountains of North Carolina, at the invitation of a Penland School... this Oregon boy got exposed to some serious foriegn culture and I didn't even have to show a passport to get there.
One of my students at Penland was a gentleman named Dr. Dick Blomberg. Dick was in charge of the new products division of some little outfit out east called Dupont.
he's the guy who ran the shop that came up with Kevlar, Nomex and Lycra.
Dick gets points for being a difficult student. I've already told him this.
Back to your regular programming...
Edited to add, Pay attention to what Jack said!
The Reaper
03-14-2005, 19:44
Intruder;
It's not what you said it's how you said it. The way you said it came out as whining and sniveling. You could have started out the same way but ended up with "But hey, it don't matter, I'm on the truck just as quick as they say jump."
All that "tell us, let us know" crap....... :boohoo
Pete
I don't think that would be his natural response.
It would appear that his true character was revealed in his initial post.
Hey, Intruder...
YOUR TAC DOESN'T OWE YOU ANYTHING, OTHER THAN INSTRUCTIONS ON WHERE TO BE, WHEN TO BE THERE, AND WHAT TO BRING!!!
Do you think that if you make it through the course and on to a deployed team, you will know everything that is going to happen ahead of time? Do you expect personalized briefings daily??? Are you the President?!?!
This is very weak and reflects poorly.
TR
Intruder
03-14-2005, 20:48
Intruder;
It's not what you said it's how you said it. The way you said it came out as whining and sniveling. You could have started out the same way but ended up with "But hey, it don't matter, I'm on the truck just as quick as they say jump."
All that "tell us, let us know" crap....... :boohoo
Pete
Roger.
They told us they are planning on implementing an "Immersion" program for us in Language school. At somepoint you will spend time in an area key to your language. They mentioned even sending guys overseas for languages such as German. As for us Arabic students, New York or Dearborn, MI. Everything seems kind of so so at the moment but I'll keep you updated if you would be interested to know.
Language school has the ability of conducting immerssion into your target language provided your class is willing to put in the time to develop the plan and submit it within a reasonable time period to be approved. Of course, it will be on your nickle.
AmericanPride
03-15-2005, 05:55
Language school has the ability of conducting immerssion into your target language provided your class is willing to put in the time to develop the plan and submit it within a reasonable time period to be approved. Of course, it will be on your nickle.
They told us yesterday all trips are a no go for now. They outlined the process to us though in case it is once again available to us.
Jack Army
04-04-2005, 14:25
I am actually in the first class that is going to endure the course using the new system. The only thing they have told us for sure so far is an organizational issue. We are going to be broken down into student ODA's. Obviously us medics will not be able to stay with the same ODA through out training, but that is one thing they are trying to work out... The other three mos have been adjusted to be the same length. As I go through I would be more then happy to give a heads up on any changes to the course, as long as they don't violate OPSEC.
Kevin
I wonder about keeping the same guys on the same training ODA throughout the QC. I'm not saying it's right or wrong...
What popped into my mind was the interaction you get with all the other students. SF candidates have varied backgrounds and experiences and I think part of the collateral learning that goes on in the QC is the students learning from each other. So, with that logic, more student interaction might be a good thing...
Of course, I see the other side of the coin as well. Having the same guys on your training ODA the whole time means they will develop as a team, get a better grasp of the team mentality and other positive aspects I can't think of right now.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
The Reaper
04-04-2005, 14:35
I would rather take an ODA to Robin Sage that had been working together, even intermittently for several months rather than one tossed together for isolation.
I like the overall concept. The devil is in the details.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
04-04-2005, 18:10
If I had to spend one more day with the "TS" and "TL" I had for RS, I would be in Leavenworth. Almost was anyway. Neither one of them made it. :boohoo
magician
04-05-2005, 00:35
But knowing what we know now...
oh, man.
got that right.
I have one word for the young'uns in the pipeline right now: agility.
that is it.
agility.
either you have this quality, or you do not. I think that it sums up, in a word, the essence of a successful SF soldier.
a man with agility knows that the fear of the unknown is entirely in his own mind.
If I had to spend one more day with the "TS" and "TL" I had for RS, I would be in Leavenworth. Almost was anyway. Neither one of them made it. :boohoo
It is better working with people you know while on an operation.
The bad part as I see it during the "Q" course is that you form friendships with people. That can carry over into the school side of things. A person could be having a hard time and really not cut out for SF but because you are "Friends" you pull him along and help him get through. He then becomes a problem on a Real Team.that the Team Sergeant has to deal with.
If a student team, as individuals, has what it takes they'll do fine in RS.
Just my two cents.
Pete
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-05-2005, 08:52
It is better working with people you know while on an operation.
The bad part as I see it during the "Q" course is that you form friendships with people.
Pete
Good point Pete, however the ability to separate professional and personal relationships has always been a strong point with folks with whom I have worked. Some of my longest and best friendships have been with soldiers with whom I have worked regardless of rank. When it came time to the nut cutting neither relationship ever impeded the task at hand. You might have felt like crap afterwards, but in the end everything seemed to work out.
Jack Moroney
Consider yourself lucky. If it was me, I wouldn't even talk to you. :p
LMFAO, That is priceless.
I nominate that as quote of the year.
Surgicalcric
04-05-2005, 10:21
I am still trying to figure out how they, J-SOMTC, is going to maintain the current pass rate for the 18D's while shortening the course by 6 weeks, keeping the same amount of material, and adding language, especially Arabic.
just a students .02
Crip
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-05-2005, 11:21
I am still trying to figure out how they, J-SOMTC, is going to maintain the current pass rate for the 18D's while shortening the course by 6 weeks, keeping the same amount of material, and adding language, especially Arabic.
just a students .02
Crip
They are probably going to embed you in NYC with an arabic speaking taxi cab that monitors the police frequencies as you shuttle from one gangland shooting to another. Piece of cake.
Jack Moroney
D9 (RIP)
04-05-2005, 20:54
I am still trying to figure out how they, J-SOMTC, is going to maintain the current pass rate for the 18D's while shortening the course by 6 weeks, keeping the same amount of material, and adding language, especially Arabic.
just a students .02
Crip
Talked this over w/ my roommate tonight, who just started the 18D course today. The cadre told them this morning that the Medical MOS course was going to be the same 12 months it has been before, and that it is not being shortened.
Perhaps they are going to shorten the overall pipeline for the 18D's by cutting out something else, although I cannot fathom what it would be (perhaps the new "Orientation Phase" being mentioned in the Feb 2005 issue of Special Warfare?).
Anyway, just reporting what the course cadre told the class that started today.
soulsedition
04-06-2005, 08:59
Just my opinion, but an immersion program is useless without an understanding of grammar and the basics of the language. I would do an immersion program after language school and one year of working in the AOR. It will provide a big leap in skills, after the basics are mastered.
Sink or swim doesn't work with languages, both sides learn to compensate to much just to get past the frustration.
I don't know, there is a school in middlebury, Vt. Great language school but the name escapes me right now. I believe this is where the bulk of the CIA,FBI, and DIA students go for language training. I was looking into it, to prep for SF. As far as Basic understanding of grammar being greater than Immersion I'd have to disagree to an extent. I Set foot in Iraq with no prior knowledge of the Arabic language, and after 4 months was the unofficial 'tank platoon translator' Now i did learn many, many bad habits, and mostly slang. But i still believe in a 'throw them in and they'll learn to swim' principle. Unless of course someone's life is on the line, or when prior planning is an option..
Kyobanim
04-06-2005, 09:19
They are probably going to embed you in NYC with an arabic speaking taxi cab that monitors the police frequencies as you shuttle from one gangland shooting to another. Piece of cake.
Jack Moroney
I just about busted a gut on that one Colonel! :D :D
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-06-2005, 09:29
I don't know, there is a school in middlebury, Vt. Great language school but the name escapes me right now. I believe this is where the bulk of the CIA,FBI, and DIA students go for language training. I was looking into it, to prep for SF. As far as Basic understanding of grammar being greater than Immersion I'd have to disagree to an extent. I Set foot in Iraq with no prior knowledge of the Arabic language, and after 4 months was the unofficial 'tank platoon translator' Now i did learn many, many bad habits, and mostly slang. But i still believe in a 'throw them in and they'll learn to swim' principle. Unless of course someone's life is on the line, or when prior planning is an option..
I totally agree with NDD, not only because he is a medic and knows things, but a great deal of communication skill is not limited to grammar but body language. Body language is picked up through a knowledge of the culture of the country, which, by the way often varies from region to region. It is not enough to talk like a duck, you have to look like one and walk like one to be totally effective in the flock. Having had to be able to pass myself off at a distance for something other than a US troop, while my grammar and vocal skills were not the best I was able to look like and walk like the duck even though I might have sounded more like a duck hawk.
Jack Moroney
I don't know, there is a school in middlebury, Vt. Great language school but the name escapes me right now.
Middlebury College. Probably the best civilian language programs in the country. Lots of rich crunchy chewy girls, too. :D
Surgicalcric
04-06-2005, 09:51
Talked this over w/ my roommate tonight, who just started the 18D course today. The cadre told them this morning that the Medical MOS course was going to be the same 12 months it has been before, and that it is not being shortened.
Perhaps they are going to shorten the overall pipeline for the 18D's by cutting out something else, although I cannot fathom what it would be (perhaps the new "Orientation Phase" being mentioned in the Feb 2005 issue of Special Warfare?).
Anyway, just reporting what the course cadre told the class that started today.
My word came from the Asst Dean of JSOMTC. The word he gave was the SOCM portion of the course was being shortened by 6 weeks with the new pipeline with more preventive and sick-call medicine being added to.
Dunno bro. Guess we will find out when we are there...
Hows the back?
I am still trying to figure out how they, is (sic) going to maintain the current pass rate for the 18D's while shortening the course by 6 weeks, keeping the same amount of material, and adding language
you've packed a rucksack before, yes? same principle applies...
i've been on the other end of POI changes...someone has a bright idea, sounds good, be nice to do, etc., etc., etc...the next thing you know, a seventeen week POI (IOBC in this case) grows to 26 weeks...then some personnel guy sees it and hits the fan because there are too many people in the pipeline and manning levels reach some sort of critical (for the personnel types) threshold...as an instructor and student, you wind up adapting as you go, enduring change as you instruct or go through the course and in the end, the product (the trained soldier) almost always is capable of passing muster...as a Marine buddy of mine used to say (regarding the Corps) Semper Gumbie...
Dustin03
04-06-2005, 14:52
one of the guys from my unit just got back from SFAS and said like 50% of his class was selected. do you gents think this had anything to do with SF needing more bodies, and going along with SFQC being shortened?
one of the guys from my unit just got back from SFAS and said like 50% of his class was selected. do you gents think this had anything to do with SF needing more bodies, and going along with SFQC being shortened?
perhaps...perhaps the word got out on what it takes to make it through and folks are showing up better prepared...
IIRC, much more than 50% of my SFAS class (that made it to the end) was selected. Guess I got over and slipped through the cracks. :lifter
Dustin03
04-06-2005, 16:00
i think that's what it is, people are better prepared. The 2 guys we sent both wher selected, and i didnt see that either of them would have a problem. Both are squared away. This month we are sending 5 from our NQP detachment, they all have the heart, but im worried about maybe one or 2 of em physically.
I still cant get the words outta my head of our SGM at drill last weekend when i came across the finish line on a run....."damnit, you're getting there, you are almost there ********" in reference to being ready to ship out. That gets at me most, just being "almost' there. (reason behind him yelling this was i came in at 14:39 on the 2 mile, they wont send us till we are hitting 14:23 and 80% on P.U. and S.U.'s. Also gotta be good to go on nav, but according to the guys that got back, if you can nav where we drill, you can easily nav at Bragg.
IIRC, much more than 50% of my SFAS class (that made it to the end) was selected. Guess I got over and slipped through the cracks. :lifter
Word I got was the Selection Committee bought a bunch of new toys for themselves after your class. :D
Doc
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-06-2005, 19:47
I have seen selection rates as low as 27% and as high as 62%. I went thru months of dealing with general officers trying to use regression analysis to determine how to predict the outcome of the process and there just is not way of knowing. In a lot of cases it comes down to something as simple as "shit happens" or compounding variables like weather. But for the most part it is all about the individual in the program being able to reach down deep and pull it out of his guts that will determine who makes it and who does not.
Jack Moroney
Archangel
04-06-2005, 20:57
This month we are sending 5 from our NQP detachment, they all have the heart, but im worried about maybe one or 2 of em physically.
I'll make sure I tell them you said that. :D :munchin
I got a bottle of Glucosamine and Chondroitin for my stupid knees. Hopefully it will work & my damn knees would hurt so much. :mad:
Dustin03
04-06-2005, 21:09
I'll make sure I tell them you said that. :D :munchin
I got a bottle of Glucosamine and Chondroitin for my stupid knees. Hopefully it will work & my damn knees would hurt so much. :mad:
well, one of em was one of the "sick" ones this past weekend, he's a big guy, tuff but i dunno bout his running. the other i think has had problems with his knee, just hope for the best for all of them, a bunch of great guys. :D
Word I got was the Selection Committee bought a bunch of new toys for themselves after your class. :D
Doc
I see it as money well spent. :p
The Reaper
04-11-2005, 11:51
one of the guys from my unit just got back from SFAS and said like 50% of his class was selected. do you gents think this had anything to do with SF needing more bodies, and going along with SFQC being shortened?
No.
TR
Surgicalcric
04-11-2005, 12:41
one of the guys from my unit just got back from SFAS and said like 50% of his class was selected...
102 out of 108 SOPC students were selected that class. Class started with a total of 385. This means there was only 25% (roughly) selected from outside SOPC. That number does not say much for how well prepared the AD/NG soldiers not attending SOPC were.
SOPC is doing its job for those able to make it to the end without injury. (cough-cough)
Now...back to PT for me...
Crip
I would rather take an ODA to Robin Sage that had been working together, even intermittently for several months rather than one tossed together for isolation.
I like the overall concept. The devil is in the details.
TR
It's too early in the game to see how possible weak link issues will play out... But in all I am liking the idea put forth by the CSM. We have had last week and this week to work out fine details on how we will organize our equipment and put together items such as status cards, range cards, etc. We also have a chance to know one another's personallity type before the fact of being put into a more stressful enviroment, which I personally think is important to a cohesive team. Not to mention getting to draw alittlebit from each others experience, which I really need comming from a non 11B background. Were also better able to police up the guys that never did pt in the morning and struggled with pt in bncoc. Which is good because more people will be ready, but obviously bad because they should have been selfmodivated in the first place.
I can't help but feel abit uneasy about going into a new team for phase 4 after my 18D school, it's some thing I will deal with when the time comes, but the biggest issue in my head is trying to get into SERE this year while it's still warm out. :D Well here is my spot of course recon... Is it a creditable claim that phase 2 is getting shortened to nearly 20 days?? We know It would not apply to us and it's probably just rumors that just so happened to take off because of the comming course changes.
Kevin
Dustin03
04-11-2005, 22:58
Hey, I went to the Air Force SERE school in the winter time, and that was in the mountains of Washington state. It's not so bad when it's cold, just pay attention and u will be okay. We where also moving a lot during the non-evasive part, you will be surprised at how light some of us bundled up.
Kyobanim
04-12-2005, 05:44
hey, i went to the Air Force SERE school in the winter time, and that was in the mtns of Washington state. It's not so bad when it's cold, just pay attention and u will be a-ok. We where also moving a lot during the non-evasive part, u'd be surprised at how light some of us bundled up.
How about some capital letters, spelled out words, etc.
Poor SA here, Dustin. Attention to detail is a cornerstone.
I believe the SOPC program probably skews the results of SFAS. In SOPC I many of the candidates quit or are dropped. By the time they get to SFAS, the group is pretty tough.
I would be interested in the combined selection rate. It's probably similar to the rates of prior years.
Back to the language question.... after getting out (a long time after getting out) I attended the Summer Institute of Liquistics courses for a couple of semesters. What an eye opener this was! Dr. Pike ( the founder of a linguistic system called Tagmemics) does a one hour demo where he uses a student from somewhere in the world. The student speaks his native language (which Dr. Pike doesn't know) and Dr. Pike speaks a Indian language from Mexico (which they don't know). In an hour he has the basic grammar of the language. About 100 or so words and knows what area of the world and probably what language family it belongs to.
He learned more in an hour than I did in a year with the Bru. It was impressive.
All that to say this. There is a book call The LAMP Method by Brewster and Brewster. It is a method for learning a foreign language on your own in an immersion fashion yet still picking up the grammar etc. It is a very good book to put in your ruck. I wish that SF Command would pick it up for distribution. It would really help a lot.
So for all of you - just starting through or AD now. I would recommend it - you will learn a lot about learning languages from this little book.
mffjm8509
05-08-2005, 12:33
It is a very good book to put in your ruck. .
You carry books in your ruck? :lifter
mp