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Max_Tab
03-08-2005, 09:53
I would appreciate any help. I am trying to find the standards for level 2 and level 3 mountaineering. It has been a few years since I was on a mountain team and none of my books have the information. Plus the mountain locker has been temporarily disbanded, so I do not have anyone that I could call there.

Thanks

NousDefionsDoc
03-08-2005, 10:00
Call Ron Johnson, apparently he invented it.

12B4S
03-24-2005, 02:38
I would appreciate any help. I am trying to find the standards for level 2 and level 3 mountaineering. It has been a few years since I was on a mountain team and none of my books have the information. Plus the mountain locker has been temporarily disbanded, so I do not have anyone that I could call there.

Thanks

Once again, a FOG's reply. I don't know anything about standards and levels for mountaineering courses Max_Tab. When I served with the 10th in Toelz, Our Mountain training was more like OJT. Here's what we were doing. Happened in Bavaria, Austria and Switzerland. At any time of the year. One of the last I was on,was in Switzerland. Our rucks, gear and Akios were lifted to the end of our uphill (on cross country skis, with the mohair climbing skins, ski race.) This little diabolical exercise had all of us gasping for air. Thing was, when we got to the top of that frickin' mountain, (a 30 to 40 minute race uphill on skis) a front had moved in. We were in t-shirts and they were soaked in sweat. This front was quick, screaming wind and COLD!!! Hit fast, our wet t-Shirts froze in minutes. Was kind of funny, beating on the icy t-shirt to bust up the ice so you could remove it and find your ruck in the pile and find something dry, unfrozen to put on. That was chilly stuff. :) IMHO, GOOD training! This was just the beginning of an eight day trek through the mountains, using nothing but map and compass, breaking and making our own trail, using ropes and manpower to haul those damn akios up a steep slope. Taking turns breaking trail on skis, humping 120/130 lb rucks. For those that don't know about mountain snow at those elevations.... fall and you are buried........... step off your skis, before tamping.... you will be up to at least your crotch, more likely your chest in snow. Anyway, we didn't have a name for the training/exercises........... it just was. Oh, BTW. Akios for those of you that havn't seen one........ are like wide, white smallish row boats with ribs on the bottom and the gunnels (sides) sliced down to 6 to 8 inches high. sled like. They were like trying to haul a duece and and half uphill!

luvanwilder
03-24-2005, 05:42
12B, You might be amused to know that us young pups in 1-10 are still doing the frozen high altitude fun dance while trying to get dry stuff on that you described. While im only a support guy I was with the OPFOR for our recent CWT and learned all about sinking in the snow up to your chest and such. Also we rescued an old Akio from the turn in pile to take with us because we support dudes have no sleds. While we didnt do anything as extreme as what you described, we were hauling many many cases of ammo and other gear in that thing all over the mountain for 2 weeks. So I know what you mean about humping those things uphill. The really fun part about them in my limited experience is when they are overloaded and you ski down a hill with them. If your break man isnt paying attention, or if your brake line snaps then you stop and they keep going, right into your legs and knock you on your butt. Good to know we are still getting some of the experiences you guys got, and I hope an amusing mental picture to those that have gone before.

12B4S
03-24-2005, 23:00
I'm thinkin' luvanwilder, perhaps it was unfortunate that you rescued that akio. ;) As huge as a pain as they were/are, we had enough stuff on our backs. BTW, is that old design still in use or has something newer replaced them? Yeah, heavily loaded they can scream downhill just fine as opposed to what seems to be an inch at a time on anything resembling fairly level terrain, let alone up a steep incline. Any of us taking our turn as brakeman, knew we were DEAD men if we screwed that up. But hey, it would take those wiped out by the thing, time to extricate themselves from the bottomless snow, head toward the track of the akio, because, it at least packed the snow. Next, they had to climb up a 30, 45 degree incline or more. That is easily an hour or more, plenty of time to evade and let them "cool" down some. :D
A quick story. As for "only a support guy", we had a Marine Captain come to Flint to challenge a couple of our A Teams to a mountain march. This was summer. Word came down through a few of the teams, mine was one of them. We just said f**k No! We were always humping them, saw no point in it, just so we could smoke a couple squads of Marines ( no offense Jarheads) ;) Any way, some of our support guys were sent out to do this 'thang'. The support guys kicked ass.
Read your profile, found it interesting that you said you didn't like Germany. I loved it there, the area, the people, all of it. Only reason, I can think of, is that you are in Stuttgart. I was stationed in Toelz. Perhaps some of the other FOG's on here can help elaborate on that, because I need to end this post.
Except for one thing, but I'll post this in an equiptment thread.

Thanks for your service "young pup" :)

Peregrino
03-25-2005, 11:47
Max Tab - PM inbound! Peregrino

lksteve
03-27-2005, 11:18
Once again, a FOG's reply. I don't know anything about standards and levels for mountaineering courses Max_Tab. When I served with the 10th in Toelz, Our Mountain training was more like OJT.

let me jump in here....i served in 1/10 at BT from 80-83...i had the privilege of being the XO of A-124 (8) and commanded A-123(5)...BTW, the numbers in parentheses are the original designation of the teams...both detachments were mountain teams, A8/124 being the mountain team in B Company, A5/123 being the mountain team in A Company until reorganization put the mountain teams in B Company and the SCUBA and HALO team in A Company...

a good deal of the training was done OJT, as 12B4S mentions...our formal training was conducted as exchange training with the Germans, Austrians and Italians...when i arrived, we were sending one NCO per year from the mountain detachments to the German Herresbergfuhrer Schule (Military Mountain Guide School)...i was fortunate to work with the first five men to attend that course....

the purpose of sending an NCO to Bergfuhrer School was to develop a cadre to train the remainder of the battalion in CWT and mountain ops...in addition to Bergfuhrer School, the guys on the mountain teams and selected other troops would attend training with at the German Mountain School in Mittenwald, the Austrian Winter Camp and the Italian Alpini course. i was fortunate enough to attend the Austrian course and graduate from Alpini school...

the mountain teams spent a lot of time on the Brauneck, both summer and winter, as the skiing was great and the climbing wasn't bad...we also spent a good deal of time on the Foralberg, Reichlkopf and Blomberg, doing our other SF training...i had a company commander complain about how much time we spent in the mountains...we 'invited' he and the SGM to come train with us...what we would do for commo cross training would be load up our rucks with the radio stuff, split into four three man groups and head up one of the local large hills/small mountains, stop after an hour, have one of the commo-illiterates write and encrypt a message, get the message on tape, set-up the radio, transmit to the base station, break down and we would continue up to the mountain...once every one had done this (BTW, we had 4 PRC74 per team), we would do a tactical rendezvous, with some of the tradecraft training integrated, then we might do IV training or do a target recon, maybe do some calculation and placement training, whatever...for some reason, the CO and SGM thought if a team wasn't doing sit-down classes in the team room, they weren't training...

anyway, this is what we expected of someone on a mountain team...he should be able to lead a UIAA rated 3+ climb with weapon and LCE, negotiate a 3- with full gear...to become a lead climber, he would be expected to lead a 4+ climb in friction shoes and climbing gear...to be considered for Bergfurher School, he'd need to lead climb a 5, 5+...as a skier, he would have to negotiate a reasonable steep slope with rifle and rucksack, using a stem christie, with some ease...to become an instructor, he would have to be able to negotiate the same slope with rucksack using parallel turns...he also had to have mastery of the snowplow and stem christie, so he could teach others...(the snowplow was my downfall...i never learned to do one)...

of course, along with the physical climbing skills, it was necessary that a soldier on a mountain team would have mastery of the knots used, as well as belay and hauling systems...let's face it, climbing is good, but it's hard to kill bad guys with carabiners and pitons, so it is necessary to move crew served weapons and munitions across mountainous terrain...

i bring this up because in 1980-83, mountain teams got whoever was available in whatever MOS was needed...the NCOs who became Bergfuhrers in my time, had a hand in developing the standards for military mountaineers of the present era...one of the Bergfuhrers later became the CSM for the NWTC and i am sure had an impact on developing mountaineering standards for the Army in that capacity...i was initially assigned to the Ranger Department after graduation from IOAC to be the chief of the mountaineering committee, but some genius BG at the Infantry School decided it would be better if i went to IOBC to teach Mech Infantry tactics...c'est le guerre...

Berg Heil...BTW, anyone know where a fellow can get copies of those pen and ink sketches of SF guys skiing, climbing, etc?

QRQ 30
03-27-2005, 12:07
I can't help with numbers and scales and degrees and other things which seem to be important today. Like others have mentioned most mountain training was OJT. I did most of my climbing (whilst kicking and screaming) in Germany. Howsever the 7th also ran schools in the summer in Pisgah.

In Germany Bob Daniels (RIP) our team sergeant had graduated from the Italian Alpini School. The Alpini were considered the top mountain troops in the world. The Group decided to conduct formal training and asked Bib to pick a committee. Being a total team member as we all were he said that he would train his team and we would be the committee. That is how it went down. I hated climbing. Someone asked me how I could jump out of planes and be afraid of heights. I replied that you only hit the ground once when you jump but the mountain will beat you to death all of the way down. We conducted most of the basic training at a quarry not far from Lenggries. Some of the most technical and difficult training was conducted at a height of thirty feet or less at the quarry.

We also attended the German school near O'gau. The base camp was reached by helicopter.

Some memorable moments:

Bob was belaying a student as he was traversing a rock. The soldier was half or more goat and never slipped or fell. Bib yanked him off of the face. I asked him why and he said the troop was too cocky and if he didn't ever fall here, under control, he may panic later if he falls and never had to recover.

If you fall the proper call is to say "Falling". SFC Frigo slipped and hollered "Help". Delbert Hayes who was belaying from the top looked over the edge and asked: "What!" No one was hurt so we had a good laugh over that for some time.

Daniels used to say that climbing was 95% confidence and 5% skill. One day I fell and two carribiners came loose and the third held. So much for confidence and clean drawers and pants!!

Here is a picture of the Brauneck which was mentioned above. It was within walking didtance of Prinz Heinrich Kaserne and we, as a team, went there once a week. OOPS I can't get it, if you wish it on my web-site on the 10th SFGA page.

luvanwilder
03-28-2005, 01:12
12B,
The big thing that everyone uses now as far as sleds go is the Polk. The teams all have 2 or 3 in various configurations. I’m not too smart on them but I was told that some are designed for deeper powder and have higher sides. In my experience they are a lot easier to pull and control, but due to the large amount of stuff we support dudes haul they probably aren’t suited for our mission. That old Akio, aka the beast has been put back into service until we can find a suitable replacement that the support company can get a hold of. When we tried hauling ammo in the Polks they just wouldn’t stay upright or would sink too deep. I am told that there was more snow for this CWT than anyone could ever remember seeing so I guess we weren’t too prepared for that much powder, but we pushed through. As previously mentioned the host nation mountain troops are outstanding. We had a German mountain troop with us and he was crazy, he literally went off the sheer side of the mountain on skis. Looked back at us, said tschuss, and disappeared. Rode back up the bahn the next day with some jagr tea for everyone. We learned a lot from that dude and I personally got a ton out of CWT.

12B4S
03-28-2005, 22:31
Thanks for the input Steve. So much has changed since I was in. Always interesting to learn about those changes. What you were describing was 9 years after I left Toelz. Great training. We didn't know anything about 3-,3+ etc. Matter of fact your post is the first time I've heard them.

Although, all teams at Flint, did some training on skis, my team was the ski team (for lack of a better term), We were also the scout swimmer/small boat team (small boat, referring to the RB15). Quite a combination. :)

During the winter in Toelz, spent most our time on skis. Cross country in the mountains and the "flats" around Flint and downhill training. I started skiing in HS. Back then (the days of lace up boots, rope tows and t-bars) I taught myself, couldn't afford lessons. Anyway, the way I would have been taught in a ski class, would have started with the snowplow, stem christie, christie, then to parallel. This is how I taught myself. This was in WI, which means I mostly skiied ICE. Got to Toelz, started training and had to adapt to actually skiing on snow. :D We'd go out for downhill training once a week or so, but we could always, on our time off go to S3, I believe it was and get free lift tickets. We used the same skiis, for cross country and downhill. Doing downhill with loaded rucks was an interesting experience. The trick was to lean FORWARD, more so for parallel. The brain is telling you... "don't go there idiot, you have 80+ lbs on your back zipping downhill, when you wipe out, you might stop when you when you hit the lodge", but it is the only way to keep the weight centered over your feet. Just took getting used to.

Steve, when you were in Toelz, were you guys still using the Chippewa boots?

lksteve
03-29-2005, 09:50
We didn't know anything about 3-,3+ etc. Matter of fact your post is the first time I've heard them.

Although, all teams at Flint, did some training on skis, my team was the ski team (for lack of a better term), We were also the scout swimmer/small boat team (small boat, referring to the RB15). Quite a combination.

During the winter in Toelz, spent most our time on skis. Steve, when you were in Toelz, were you guys still using the Chippewa boots?

i believe the use of the UIAA rating system was a direct result of sending NCOs to Bergfuhrer School...they knew the system well and in order to maintain certification as a mountain guide, they had to make so many climbs of a certain difficulty, document the training they administered and the alpine tours they conducted...

all teams trained on skis when i was there, as well...the mountain teams were the cadre for CWT and ski training in the winter and a couple weeks of mountain training in the summer...

except for the SCUBA and HALO teams, the rest of us were expected to be versatile...we did urban training, small boat training, etc...on Flintlock '83, we were to infiltrate our AO using RB 7s...we got in the water and started making toward shore in some pretty rough seas when the battalion commander had the boat swing around and pick us up...he decided that #1 the sea was dangerously rough and #2 because one of the boats the other team was going to use for infil mysteriously developed a knife cut along one of the gunwhales, both teams would infil by helicopter after we returned to Great Yarmouth....

we still had chippewas...you did not break in the boot, your foot conformed to it...i actually still have a brand new pair...i went to Alaska to command a company in the early days of SF branch (1987) when folks weren't sure we could get promoted without having punched the conventional ticket...at the end of my tour, i was the G3 Air of the division and the Div. HQ was about to have an IG...the HHC comedian was required to have certain members of the division staff lay their TA50-901 junk out as part of the inspection and by virtue of my (lack of) rank, i was picked to be the officer from the G3 shop...at the time, i was on orders for the FA 39 program at Bragg, so my stuff was clean enough to be turned in to CIF...anyway, my chips had seen two winters of company command and field time in the snow, two summers on glaciers and rocks, a lot of humping to and fro, and while clean and serviceable, they were worn...the HHC comedian (and i had been one of those) wanted me to DX the boots...i argued that wasn't necessary, he complained to the Chief of Staff and i was asked (directed?) to DX the boots, a week before i went to CIF to turn in my stuff, i was the recepient of a brand new pair of square-toed chippewas, which could not be returned to CIF...so, somewhere in a storage unit in Blanding UT, along with a couple pair of brand new jungle boots and one pair on reasonably new desert boots, my chippewas wait for me to abuse my feet...

12B4S
03-29-2005, 22:01
That's interesting lksteve. Same deal when i was there, the Halo team was A-6, the
scuba team A-2. they didn't participate in the ski or mountain training either.

I loved the Chips. I don't ever remember having wet or cold feet while wearing them . As long as you kept them saturated with what we referred to as 'Whale Shit'. When I was leaving Toelz and went to turn in my TA-50 the guy in S-4 was a friend (I always tried to make friends with all support people), he said just make two piles. one on the left is the stuff you want to turn in, to the right, the stuff you want to take home. The Chips went with me, and used them for years afterward when I dragged friends up to WI, winter camping a couple times a year.
Damn!, Some guy went to The Chief of Staff over DX'ing a pair of boots huh? Must not have much to do. At least you got a new pair out of it.

12B4S
03-29-2005, 22:10
12B,
"The big thing that everyone uses now as far as sleds go is the Polk. The teams all have 2 or 3 in various configurations. I’m not too smart on them but I was told that some are designed for deeper powder and have higher sides. In my experience they are a lot easier to pull and control, but due to the large amount of stuff we support dudes haul they probably aren’t suited for our mission. That old Akio, aka the beast has been put back into service until we can find a suitable replacement that the support company can get a hold of. When we tried hauling ammo in the Polks they just wouldn’t stay upright or would sink too deep. I am told that there was more snow for this CWT than anyone could ever remember seeing so I guess we weren’t too prepared for that much powder, but we pushed through."

Thanks for the information luvanwilder, Thought by now something better had come along. The akio did serve it's purpose, better than hauling your stuff on a piece of plywood or something. :) Yes, I ran into and skiied with alot of Germans while there. Alot of them were just crazy good.

lksteve
03-29-2005, 23:23
The Chief of Staff over DX'ing a pair of boots huh? Must not have much to do. At least you got a new pair out of it.

the COS had been the G3...called me in, said Captain Muckety-muck is afraid your worn out chips will get gigged by the IG...i told the good Colonel that i knew the freakin' IG and given my week or so to DEROS, i didn't think there'd be any gigs for staff officers with chips that looked like they belonged to a line officer...the COS asked me to exchange the boots so that 'little sniveling bastard' (his words, not mine) would quit complaining about that nasty SF G3 Air guy...i asked him if it was an order and he looked at me and said 'if that's what it takes for me to get him and you out of my life, yes...'

12B4S
03-31-2005, 00:48
Hard to believe as a SF guy Steve, you'd be "nasty" to Captain Muckity muck. :D

lksteve
03-31-2005, 09:32
Hard to believe as a SF guy Steve, you'd be "nasty" to Captain Muckity muck.
i know...it is soooooooo against my COO side... :D

beyond that, i am rather curious to know what standards have been applied to military mountaineering...when i was a detachment commander, we got guys based on our MOS or language needs...if the guy couldn't ski, had never climbed, etc, we were responsible for OJT at detachment level...has a system evolved that tracks people with mountain training (we implemented the standards i mentioned earlier in an effort to do so) so that the personnel weenies can match skills to needs?

12B4S
03-31-2005, 21:35
Looks to me Steve, like you implemented a great base for standards. Would be interesting to know what was happening now. :munchin

lksteve
04-01-2005, 09:23
Looks to me Steve, like you implemented a great base for standards. Would be interesting to know what was happening now.

anything implemented was done by NCOs, not by the likes of me...

Razor
04-01-2005, 11:14
Well, I can tell you that when I showed up to my mountain team in '97, we had two officially rated climbers (my Warrant attended a climbing course-not Bergfuehrer-while with 1/10, and my 18D graduated from the USASOC Mountain Leader Course), my senior E and C had OJT skills from being on the team several years and doing an assault climbing JCET in Turkey, and I had attended the summer phase of the VTANG Mountain Warfare Course at CEATS as a cadet. So, that means only 5 out of the 9 guys on the team had any mountaineeringg experience, and we had no slots available within the next year to the USASOC course that our own Group was running. I hope things have changed some since, but at that time, there was little emphasis on getting mountaineers on mountain teams, except for the two ODAs that served as cadre for the USASOC course, who also got any incoming Bergfuehrers and maintained the climbing locker.

lksteve
04-01-2005, 12:04
So, that means only 5 out of the 9 guys on the team had any mountaineeringg experience

that was the problem from 80-83 as well...we were assigned guys that had never seen snow before, much less knew how to ski...we actually got guys who had been on other teams and had an interest in skiing and climbing (although this tended to create some hate and discontent unless there was a reenlistment involved)... even had a guy who unbeknownst to us (or to him) was hypoxic...he was a great soldier, very physically fit, but coulc not function at 11,000 above sea level...we worked at fitting skills to detachments, but except for the HALO and SCUBA teams, language and MOS requirements drove the boat in assigning people to teams...

QRQ 30
04-01-2005, 12:35
Yes indeed. In 1976 our B-Team (company) in the 7th made a cross country trek across the frozen tundra somewhere north of Fairbanks. Unlike the purty films, the tundra was nothing but a sea of frozen clumps of grass. There was a name for it but CRS. Anyway we pulled, pushed, carried, cursed and kicked those damned akios across over 200 KM in minus 40 degree weather. For the most part we were stripped to T-shirts and parka shell to keep from getting overheated.

The first night we learned to drink nothing near bed time. Getting up and dressed to pee was a tortuous operation. OTOH there was nothing like moonoing a moose in the arctic twilight. :lifter :D

lksteve
04-01-2005, 13:56
The first night we learned to drink nothing near bed time. Getting up and dressed to pee was a tortuous operation. OTOH there was nothing like moonoing a moose in the arctic twilight.

the northern lights are most spectacular when you have to answer a prolonged call of nature at -40°F, if you know what i mean...

12B4S
04-02-2005, 01:49
anything implemented was done by NCOs, not by the likes of me...

HM!?!! Steve, you graduated from Alpini school for one. Second: I believe you had alot to do with setting up the standards/expectations for a mountain ODA. I realize the NCO's had a ton to do with the implemtation. BUT, in your first post here, you referred to "we" quite often. During my short time in SF (compared to the rest of the QPs out here) I was fortunate enough to be commanded and knew some great Officers. However, I did run into my share of that "10%". The ones trying to punch thier ticket (although to my thinking, there weren't many of them back then, SF was pretty much death on "The Career" for an Ossifer). You Sir, are more like a senior NCO or Team Daddy.

Was up in your AO a few years ago. If I can get back that way, I'll teach you the Snowplow. ;)

What's interesting, is the span of decades on this thread. What you and your NCO's were trying to do in the early 80's is similar to what Razor went through some 14 to 17 years later. Then ya have Terry and I. QRQ 30 was in Tolz approx. a decade before I got there (early 60's). Between the four us we span some 40+ years!!

Our mountain training was all OJT. Your's and Razor's transcended ours. Thing is between the two of you and the 15 to 17 years difference or so, seems the technical aspects of mountain training got better ( the physical is a given). Yet after reading Razor's post, it seems like the same old. In other words, you take what/who is assigned to the Team and train 'em in whatever. I've been out a long time, but that is how it was when I was in. Hell, if they got that far, they'll pull it off. Or die! :rolleyes:

12B4S
04-02-2005, 02:08
Yes indeed. In 1976 our B-Team (company) in the 7th made a cross country trek across the frozen tundra somewhere north of Fairbanks. Unlike the purty films, the tundra was nothing but a sea of frozen clumps of grass. There was a name for it but CRS. Anyway we pulled, pushed, carried, cursed and kicked those damned akios across over 200 KM in minus 40 degree weather. For the most part we were stripped to T-shirts and parka shell to keep from getting overheated.

The first night we learned to drink nothing near bed time. Getting up and dressed to pee was a tortuous operation. OTOH there was nothing like moonoing a moose in the arctic twilight. :lifter :D

See luvanwilder! Terry loved "The Beast Too" (akio) :rolleyes:
Almost as much as I did. He's right about not drinking close to rack/hammock time. It is a bi@*h, having to get up and take a leak when it's below zero. If the wind isn't blowing, it's tolerable. If the wind chill cranks the temp to 70 below, it's kinda miserable. Good thing we didn't want to add a case of beer to our already 100+ LB rucks. :eek: I did try takin' a leak while in the hammock and once while sleeping on the snow pack. Just never worked out. You HAVE to extract yourself from that little bit of warmth and "just do it". (Hope Nike doesn't come after me for that). One has bedmates in a mummy bag, your weapon, boots and canteen, for starters. Gets a tad crowded.

luvanwilder
04-02-2005, 07:07
I know just what you gents are talking about with the struggle to hold it or freeze. We actually had two young studs that decided to get up in the middle of the night, go pee, and then go back to bed one night. The only problem is that they wore only their ski boot liners and then left them on when they got back in the fart sack!! I couldnt believe it when they came limping back into the lodge and told the story of why their feet were cold. Luckily neither one of them got frostbite, but they were damn close. Needless to say the doc was not happy with those guys and they got an ear full from all the senior NCOs out there. I found that a nalgene bottle with a little glint tape on the top so you can make sure you arent gonna drink from your pee bottle or pee in your water bottle worked pretty good for me.

lksteve
04-02-2005, 09:30
You Sir, are more like a senior NCO or Team Daddy.

Was up in your AO a few years ago. If I can get back that way, I'll teach you the Snowplow.

those are kind words...the bottom line is this...having been an NCO on a detachment before OCS, i knew that any lasting change had to come from those ranks...when i was a detachment commander, i was an infantry officer, killing his career (gladly)...the NCOs were and are the institutional memory of any unit and are in the best position to see change through....

the role(s) of officers in SF in the late 70s and early 80s, in my opinion, were to bring both the potential of and the problems within SF...i think we did okay...the conventional officers who ran the Army back then needed a way to tie the shortages we faced in SF to a conventional framework, to a conventional reference...Colonel Roger Seymour, when he commanded 1/10, developed a document called the Cutting Edge report...he submitted that report along with the monthly USR...a USR (Unit Status Report) tracked equipment and personnel necessary for a unit ot accomplish its wartime mission...we filed the report stating that all four PRC 74s were functional, all twelve rifles were in tip-top shape, the team had at least guy per MOS and that both cameras had film...when the folks at SOTFE and SFD(A)E complained about personnel 'shortages' the generals would wave the USR about and talk about 2/15 IN being short two TOW gunners or something...what the Cutting Edge report did was highlight SF peculiar requirements that did not fit the broad categories of the rest of the Army...it included language ratings, mountaineering skills, area orientation and scout swim training....the personnel requirements were written into the warplans and all of the sudden the G3/J3 folks are USAREUR and EUCOM could see that even though A1369 had eleven people assigned, they only had two jumpmasters...although they had nine linguists, they were oriented toward eastern Europe, so the Korean, Spanish and Farsi linguists weren't much help...folks like that had a big impact, IMNSHO, on the current requirements of the pipeline rather than 1LTs who filled out the report as det XOs...my contribution, if any, was putting my Bergfuhrers in front of the battalion, Det Europe and SOTFE commanders to emphasize the potential capability...i helped a little with the grammar, too...

12B4S
04-03-2005, 01:03
There ya go Steve. I just knew you were oozing NCO. :D
As an officer on a Team, you have to deal with all that crap, trying to deal with the needed equipment/personnel and such. As the saying goes (as an E5 at the time) it was above my pay grade. When I was assigned to A-12, they were just being formed. There was one 12B/18C, a SSG, but he was short and acting Team Sergeant. Myself and another 12B (who I went through TG with) were assigned to A-12, filling out the team. If somewhere along the line in the tons of forms I filled out, I mentioned that I had been scuba diving for 8 years or skiing for 5 or so, I don't remember. Then again, neither were Military schools. So how it came to be, as to my assignment to that team, I have NO idea. Except for my MOS, yet with another guy, that was just as new as I was. Somehow, I was designated the senior 12B. Still don't how that happened. Plus at the time, he an I bunked together in the Kaserne. It was fine with him though. Yeah, for me it was WTF?!? But then, it was cool. Hell, I was on an A Team and besides, the three of us new guys (myself, the other 12B and our Capt.), we had 37 plus years combat experience, until we were assigned our new Team Daddy. That put the Team's combat experience, at 40 plus years, between 9 out of the 12 of us. My first meeting with 'Doc" (new Team Sergeant) is another story. :eek: For two years, I served on that Team as the senior 12B. WHAT were they thinkin'?...

Good to hear Steve that you would correct the NCO's umm..... "grammar" Did you tell them? ;) Also, as you mention. You put your Bergfuhrers up front!! A good Officer will!
I don't quite get the two Jumpmaster/ linquist part. All A Teams have folks that can speak other languages. What I get from that statement is this, the regular Army chose to dissect A1369's personnel needs. Of course as back in my day they had no clue what SF was about and pissed they still existed. Too much to type here. Anyway, ah never mind, I'll stop now.

12B4S
04-03-2005, 01:49
I know just what you gents are talking about with the struggle to hold it or freeze. We actually had two young studs that decided to get up in the middle of the night, go pee, and then go back to bed one night. The only problem is that they wore only their ski boot liners and then left them on when they got back in the fart sack!! I couldnt believe it when they came limping back into the lodge and told the story of why their feet were cold. Luckily neither one of them got frostbite, but they were damn close. Needless to say the doc was not happy with those guys and they got an ear full from all the senior NCOs out there. I found that a nalgene bottle with a little glint tape on the top so you can make sure you arent gonna drink from your pee bottle or pee in your water bottle worked pretty good for me.

When i was in, we didn't have the nalgene bottles (bought several after i got out though). Good idea, they have a wide opening. (Behave, Y'all!, already went there, just didn't type it). Bein' a fog, there are ways. best is not having too. ;)
luvanwilder, now you made me dredge something up from decades ago, as seems to happen alot since I got to this site. Once read a story or it was a movie, 20-30 years ago, think it was about a con/sting/bet thing. Not sure. Anyway the guy in the story, in order to get/win what he was after, used something from the 1800/1900s. I can't remember the exact terminology. It was called something like a "cabooseman's friend". At any rate, what this was used for back then, was this. A small cannister (almost flask like) was strapped just above and inside the ankle. a smallish diameter hose/tube ran up the leg, to the crotch. At the ah...... 'business end', was a .... hmmm (how to put this) sort of a condom configuration. Anyway, these guys all used them for the long rides they made. They relieved themselves in these during the trip. I know, I know! I have no idea why they didn't just walk out back an go either, after all, they are in the caboose. I'll Google tommorow.

The Reaper
04-03-2005, 09:13
12B4S, I have heard that device called a Texas Catheter.

Supposedly comes in handy for truckers and poker players.

TR

lksteve
04-03-2005, 10:33
I don't quite get the two Jumpmaster/ linquist part. All A Teams have folks that can speak other languages. What I get from that statement is this, the regular Army chose to dissect A1369's personnel needs. Of course as back in my day they had no clue what SF was about and pissed they still existed. Too much to type here. Anyway, ah never mind, I'll stop now.

a team oriented toward, say Iraq might have nine linguists...two Arabic linguists, two Spanish linguists, three German linguists and two Vietnamese linguists....the war plan might call for four Arabic linguists, two Farsi linguists, etc...while all the guys might be linguists, the languages don't fit the AOR...not always a problem, but always a consideration...

because we had four radios, someone wrote each detachment should have four jumpmasters into our planning documents...having only two jumpmasters meant team wasn't fully mission capable...

the standard unit reporting methods didn't work well for SF in 1980, so a battalion commander sought to provide more meaningful imput...it seems toward the end, we started getting a response...the tradeoff was end strength in the short term versus improved capability in the long term...the personnel folks at USAREUR worried about teams going down to eight or nine people, not realizing that twelve guys, while great, were no more effective than eight if they weren't fully qualified to work in the AOR...

the pipeline for this generation of SF is so long, (or so it seems to one who spent 17 weeks in training group) is to address some of the problems we had back in the post Vietnam era...we got guy who were fluent in Spanish, Korean, Farsi, but damned if we could get anyone qualified in Polish, Czech, Magyar, etc...

12B4S
04-04-2005, 02:46
12B4S, I have heard that device called a Texas Catheter.

Supposedly comes in handy for truckers and poker players.

TR

Yeah TR, the same deal, although I wasn't aware of that term. My younger brother was paralyzed from the neck down in an auto accident in '79. So, now they are referred to as 'leg bags' for daytime/mobile use and 'night bags' for sleep. I was thinking this morning, that term I first heard was not cabooseman's friend, but brakeman's friend. I believe it was from the '73 movie, The Sting, with Redford and Newman. Not sure though. Seems during one of thier earlier cons, one of them used it during a poker game, as a side bet thing. Guess, I'll have to rent the movie soon to find out. Oh. BTW, from what I hear these days, alot of truckers and others are just filling up the one gallon plastic water/milk containers and tossing them out the window. Guess it's cheaper and less maintenance.

12B4S
04-04-2005, 04:19
a team oriented toward, say Iraq might have nine linguists...two Arabic linguists, two Spanish linguists, three German linguists and two Vietnamese linguists....the war plan might call for four Arabic linguists, two Farsi linguists, etc...while all the guys might be linguists, the languages don't fit the AOR...not always a problem, but always a consideration...

because we had four radios, someone wrote each detachment should have four jumpmasters into our planning documents...having only two jumpmasters meant team wasn't fully mission capable...

the standard unit reporting methods didn't work well for SF in 1980, so a battalion commander sought to provide more meaningful imput...it seems toward the end, we started getting a response...the tradeoff was end strength in the short term versus improved capability in the long term...the personnel folks at USAREUR worried about teams going down to eight or nine people, not realizing that twelve guys, while great, were no more effective than eight if they weren't fully qualified to work in the AOR...

the pipeline for this generation of SF is so long, (or so it seems to one who spent 17 weeks in training group) is to address some of the problems we had back in the post Vietnam era...we got guy who were fluent in Spanish, Korean, Farsi, but damned if we could get anyone qualified in Polish, Czech, Magyar, etc...

Steve, I understand alot of that reasoning, then again, seems like the folks at USAREUR are thinking to hard again. If a Team is being sent to Iraq for instance, ideally it would be great if they ALL spoke some form of Arabic. How many different dialects are there between just Afghanistan and Iraq? Dialects that an Arab, Afghan or whatever, couldn't understand or speak? I sure don't know, but I had experience in Germany with it and was like night and day. German's couldn't understand what another German was saying, nada, nichts. Having some guys trained in the language is definately important. I'm old school and may be off base here, but anyone in SF or on an ODA is capable of learning another language and has been trained in at least one. What I'm trying to say, to me, a Team that has trained, lived, worked or even fought together, is more important than how the number of Jumpmasters correlate with the number of radios. Having as many linguists on a Team in any given country it will be deployed to is a plus. Those who can't speak the language will adapt and learn.

A ton of SF guys sent to Viet Nam, were not language trained for that country. They learned while there. I was sent to quite a few different countries when I was in. I/we always tried to learn at least some basics of thier language. Interesting how one can communicate that way and yet, not know squat. :cool:

HBF 39
07-28-2005, 10:55
Sorry to hear that the Mountain teams over there don't have the poop for levels 2 & 3. As a Bergfuhrer graduate from Mittenwald, I do have the info., but will have to dig it out of my storage area. I'll be back.