View Full Version : Italians and Coalition Check Point in Iraq
Bill Harsey
03-05-2005, 11:25
Developing story:
About the rescued Italian lady journalist and her car that seems to have not slowed down at a coalition check point on the way to the airport in Iraq.
Result was some shooting and one dead in her car. Journalist is now back in Rome and is said to be in good condition after surgery to remove some shrapnel from her shoulder.
I just heard on NPR (yes you got that right, I listened to National Public Radio this morning) that the Italian Prime Minister is asking for the prosecution of evidently, the United States military persons who fired at the car which didn't respond to warnings to slow down.
Anyone tracking this story?
CPTAUSRET
03-05-2005, 11:34
Developing story:
About the rescued Italian lady journalist and her car that seems to have not slowed down at a coalition check point on the way to the airport in Iraq.
Result was some shooting and one dead in her car. Journalist is now back in Rome and is said to be in good condition after surgery to remove some shrapnel from her shoulder.
I just heard on NPR (yes you got that right, I listened to national Public Radio this morning) that the Italian Prime Minister is asking for the prosecution of evidently, the United States military persons who fired at the car which didn't respond to warnings to slow down.
Anyone tracking this story?
Bill I know about as much as you do, I believe an investigation is underway.
A car speeding toward an American checkpoint, sounds like a scenario a suicide bomber would utilize. There should have been commo of some kind, or some type of recognition signals, or both.
Team Sergeant
03-05-2005, 11:44
I've been following the story in the media.
It would not matter to me if the tables were turned, anyone speeding toward an armed checkpoint, in Iraq, is bound to become next days news.
Speeding toward armed checkpoints is about as intelligent as an unarmed Western journalists seeking interviews with islamic extremists on their turf.
Life is tough, but its tougher when you're stupid.
The Reaper
03-05-2005, 11:45
I've been following the story in the media.
It would not matter to me if the tables were turned, anyone speeding toward an armed checkpoint, in Iraq, is bound to become next days news.
Speeding toward armed checkpoints is about as intelligent as an unarmed Western journalists seeking interviews with islamic extremists on their turf.
Life is tough, but its tougher when you're stupid.
Concur 100%.
TR
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I'm really sorry for any innocent loss of life, but SA seemed non-existent in that vehicle.
The PM of Italy has a tough road to work with given the sentiment of his constituency.
Sounds political to me.
Watch out Joe.
CPTAUSRET
03-05-2005, 12:39
The above scenario was a tragedy waiting/begging to happen.
I don't know what else they could/should have done on a tactical level. The troops did exactly what they were instructed to do. Good on em!
Politically is where the fallout will come, see comments below. The Italian Communist party hopes to parlay this into grabbing power in the next Italian elections.
The incident is bound to add to doubts about the continued military presence in Iraq among those Italians who have staged huge marches against the war.
Berlusconi defied public opinion by sending 3,000 troops to Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 and has rejected past calls to withdraw the troops.
Italy's center-left, which hopes to unseat Berlusconi next year in elections and to weaken his standing at local government polls next month, is campaigning on a platform of withdrawing.
While moderate opposition leaders were cautious in their criticism, hard-line leftists said the shooting would galvanize anti-war opinion.
"I don't believe a word of the American version," said Oliviero Diliberto, head of the Italian Communist party, part of the main left-wing block led by former premier Romano Prodi.
"The Americans deliberately fired on Italians. This is huge. All of the center-left must vote in parliament for the withdrawal of our troops."
I've been following the story in the media.
It would not matter to me if the tables were turned, anyone speeding toward an armed checkpoint, in Iraq, is bound to become next days news.
Speeding toward armed checkpoints is about as intelligent as an unarmed Western journalists seeking interviews with islamic extremists on their turf.
Life is tough, but its tougher when you're stupid.This is almost a direct quote from the military man in this house.
I agree.
Roguish Lawyer
03-05-2005, 13:15
Is that just how they drive in Italy? :rolleyes:
Trip_Wire (RIP)
03-05-2005, 16:59
Is that just how they drive in Italy? :rolleyes:
I wouldn't drive in Rome or any of the big cities in Italy, based on my visits to Rome and Florence and Venice as well, although in Venice they restrict a lot of travel to small motor boats, which they seem to drive with the same gusto! :D
When the demand was made for an explanation a smart US official should have replied with "Your driver failed to stop for a check point." The reply would be something like "What! Is that all you're going to say?" The the US official would reply with "No. Tell your drivers to be more careful."
Pete
Hey, maybe as payback we could offer to let them shoot a few of ours. Lets say, starting at CBS?
Roguish Lawyer
03-05-2005, 17:48
Hey, maybe as payback we could offer to let them shoot a few of ours. Lets say, starting at CBS?
LMAO!
Kyobanim
03-05-2005, 17:53
I haven't kept up with this today, been sick. But seems to me a little commo would have forstalled this incident.
OK lets review,
A 56-year-old journalist for the communist daily Il Manifesto, is captured a month ago and releases a video during that time crying for all Italian troops to be removed from Iraq and this"unjust war". At one point on the tape, her eyes filled with tears as she struggled to recite her message, she then waved the camera to stop - and it did (?????) On Feb. 16, her captors released the video showing her sobbing, pleading for her life and calling on troops to pull out of Iraq.
Her boyfriend, after seeing Sgrena’s taped plea, wrote to her through Il Manifesto: “Dear Giuliana, in the video you seemed to me like a caged bird, with your ruffled hair and your frightened look.” Theres a guy who expecting the worse and trackin' this whole beheading trend.
Oh, did I mention she was living in a mosque in Bagdad and was captured as her car left Bagdad University - with no witnesses. Anyhue...Il Manifesto has been a fierce opponent of the U.S.-led war and during her captivity has run her stories daily about the abuse of "innocents and downtrodden" at the hands of the US Forces at Abu Ghraib prison.
After a "freedom march" in Rome with much ado fanfare, she is released. They then race at a known static US checkpoint with no pre-delineation contact and are promptly and correctly shot up.
Let me see tap - tap - tap - nope, batteries still dead on the old compassion meter. I call bullshit on the kidnapping, and commend the
soldiers manning the checkpoint. I only hope the AAR quickly identifies this as a correct action, so no one hesitates during future instances wherein vehicles race at a checkpoint, this time with a haji and his hand on the switch.
Bill Harsey
03-05-2005, 19:10
Is that just how they drive in Italy? :rolleyes:
RL! You have no idea how close I came to making that comment, but I didn't want to color my opening comments here.
I was in Rome last year, I now know the origins of formula one racing.
Casey makes sense.
I also commend those manning the checkpoint.
Basenshukai
03-05-2005, 22:10
Check point SOP in Iraq:
Scenario: Vehicle Approaching Checkpoint at "high" speed.
Actions are dependant on time available.
1. Ensure weapons are visible to approaching vehicle.
2. One warning shot in the air in the general direction of the vehicle (not intended to hit the vehicle).
3. Shoot at the vehicle with the following engagement criteria:
a. Shoot at the tires
b. Shoot at the engine
c. Shoot at vehicle driver
d. Shoot vehicle occupants (passengers)
Of course ... defend yourself at all costs first and foremost. The SOP is just a guide.
(Personally, I'd go with the warning shot, if there is time, and go on to implement criteria "c". Or, just criteria "c". Thing is, that for some odd reason, Iraqi civilians respond more to the warning shot than to the yelling and arm waving type of warnings. And, of course, everyone seems to respond to criteria "c", in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)
It is possible that the Italian "Secret Service" guy was not privy to these practices (Was he driving?). In the end, the checkpoint did their job.
3. Shoot at the vehicle with the following engagement criteria:
a. Shoot at the tires
b. Shoot at the engine
Earlier media (?) reports did mention shots to the engine block.
I hope homeland LEO have a similar SOP. I pray that I'm wrong, but my guts say replication of the insurgant's penchant for their particular brand of "
'vehicular manslaughter' will be the next threat to Western nations.
I hope homeland LEO have a similar SOP.
Hope won't help - we are NOT ready here.
One white female from Mississippi should have been the turning point for all U.S. LEO's but alas was not. If memory serves correct, in Nov of 2003 she crashed her Toyota Camry into a wall 40m from where President Bush was exiting a Republican rally - an event that went unnoticed by all... save a very few. Why is this event important? Another quick review
A blond white female drives her Toyota (with her three small childern on back seat) thru a full Presidental Security detail, with a flat front tire.
She is screaming as she travels thru outer, inner, anti-sniper, and static hot zone posts - that is Federal, State and Local LEO's on site.
She crashes her vehicle 40m from the #1 target of terrorist in the world today - our President.
Like it or not - NO ONE on that scene could say that said Toyota was not a vehicle bomb until AFTER it crashed a scant 40m from President Bush and she was taken into custody. But I can say thru my own experience that seeing a vehicle breaking thru Presidental Security with a flat tire and screaming driver is one time critical assessment that had better be in your head aforehand. However, I 'm afraid that were this a training senario, most LEO's would say "That'll never happen" - yet it did.
To conclude, is it just a mere coincidence that later that month the "chatter" was all over a "female suicide bomber disguised to fit in", hitting the U.S. at Christmas time? Or are they reading our papers and saying "hey, Ahmoud look at this - they don't shoot blond white girls - is Fatima still available"??
Times have changed - If your going to run your car at a designated security checkpoint initiated to protect our soldiers, leaders, or yes, even critical infastructures then congratulations, its checkout time at the Ole' Shallow GenePool Hotel and your wakeup call will be arrivin' any second now.
magician
03-06-2005, 00:17
Casey:
you are all over it.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-06-2005, 06:08
Developing story:
I just heard on NPR (yes you got that right, I listened to National Public Radio this morning) ?
You mean you have other radio stations there in Oregon? Bet it starts out with the haunting call of a spotted owl in the background.
It is going to be interesting to see just how supportive the chain of command is going to be over this. I hope some snuffy is not hung out to dry in the interest of maintaining international relations.
Jack Moroney
mffjm8509
03-06-2005, 06:42
Check point SOP in Iraq:
Scenario: Vehicle Approaching Checkpoint at "high" speed.
Actions are dependant on time available.
1. Ensure weapons are visible to approaching vehicle.
2. One warning shot in the air in the general direction of the vehicle (not intended to hit the vehicle).
3. Shoot at the vehicle with the following engagement criteria:
a. Shoot at the tires
b. Shoot at the engine
c. Shoot at vehicle driver
d. Shoot vehicle occupants (passengers)
Of course ... defend yourself at all costs first and foremost. The SOP is just a guide.
This is similar to what the new MNF units are using in IZ. Engagable Zone is 50M. Both approaching a check point or military convoy.
Flash TCPs are marked at 50M with Orange cones during daylight and Red/Blue Chemlights at night. All warnings must take place before they reach that 50m barrier, but cross it and its game on.
mp
Bill Harsey
03-06-2005, 09:25
Just caught a whiff of the CBS Sunday morning news show on my way out to start warming up the shop.
Italian Journalist involved in the coalition checkpoint incident is said to be claiming that her car was not speeding.
This is starting to smell like another anti-United States set up and our media can't get there fast enough to help.
Great information here all.
Jack, Your right.
Goggles Pizano
03-06-2005, 10:11
Hope won't help - we are NOT ready here.
One white female from Mississippi should have been the turning point for all U.S. LEO's but alas was not. If memory serves correct, in Nov of 2003 she crashed her Toyota Camry into a wall 40m from where President Bush was exiting a Republican rally - an event that went unnoticed by all... save a very few. Why is this event important? Another quick review
A blond white female drives her Toyota (with her three small childern on back seat) thru a full Presidental Security detail, with a flat front tire.
She is screaming as she travels thru outer, inner, anti-sniper, and static hot zone posts - that is Federal, State and Local LEO's on site.
She crashes her vehicle 40m from the #1 target of terrorist in the world today - our President.
Like it or not - NO ONE on that scene could say that said Toyota was not a vehicle bomb until AFTER it crashed a scant 40m from President Bush and she was taken into custody. But I can say thru my own experience that seeing a vehicle breaking thru Presidental Security with a flat tire and screaming driver is one time critical assessment that had better be in your head aforehand. However, I 'm afraid that were this a training senario, most LEO's would say "That'll never happen" - yet it did.
To conclude, is it just a mere coincidence that later that month the "chatter" was all over a "female suicide bomber disguised to fit in", hitting the U.S. at Christmas time? Or are they reading our papers and saying "hey, Ahmoud look at this - they don't shoot blond white girls - is Fatima still available"??
Times have changed - If your going to run your car at a designated security checkpoint initiated to protect our soldiers, leaders, or yes, even critical infastructures then congratulations, its checkout time at the Ole' Shallow GenePool Hotel and your wakeup call will be arrivin' any second now.
Casey I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut every cop on that detail was thinking "holy shit am I going to get crucified if I fire on this vehicle?". You are spot on man keep it going!
The hits just keep on rolling.
couple of interesting tid bits in this latest update:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=ap9iTU9rEwwk&refer=europe
- she says that the Americans did it on purpose.
- ransom of several million dollars was paid.
Injured Reporter Says U.S. May Have Fired on Purpose (Update1)
March 6 (Bloomberg) -- Giuliana Sgrena, the Italian reporter wounded on March 4 by U.S.-led forces after she was freed from her captors in Iraq, said the military may have targeted her deliberately.
Sgrena, 57, who had been held for one month in captivity, was injured and Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed when coalition forces fired on their vehicle as it approached a Baghdad checkpoint.
Writing in Italy's Il Manifesto newspaper, Sgrena said her kidnappers had warned her to pay attention once she was freed, because the U.S. wanted her dead. At the time, she judged their words to be ``superfluous and ideological,'' she wrote.
``They told me to beware because `there are Americans who don't want you to return','' Sgrena wrote in the article. When she was shot, her captors' advice ``risked acquiring the taste of the most bitter of truths,'' she wrote.
U.S. President George W. Bush telephoned Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on March 4 to express regret about the incident and offer cooperation in an investigation, according to White House spokesman Scott McClellan.
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini yesterday to reiterate the U.S. will do all it can to uncover what happened, la Repubblica reported today.
No Justification
The shooting was ``without reason,'' Sgrena said yesterday from a Rome military hospital, where she is being treated for her wounds, reported daily Corriere della Sera. ``I cannot find any justification for it,'' she was cited as saying.
Sgrena's convoy approached the checkpoint at a ``high rate of speed,'' according to Marine Sergeant Salju Thomas on March 4 by telephone from Baghdad. ``It's an extremely threatening act,'' Thomas said. ``That's the exact same thing that car bombers do.''
Sgrena denied that the convoy carrying her, Calipari and two other Italian agents was speeding when it crossed the checkpoint, and said the shots were from elsewhere, Italy's Ansa news agency said yesterday.
``It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction,'' the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling prosecutors. Her driver was also injured in the shooting.
Ransom
The U.S. wasn't informed of the last phases of Italy's negotiations with the kidnappers, as it opposed any ransom being paid for Sgrena, said Il Sole/24 Ore. A ransom of ``several million dollars'' was paid in another Arab country at about the time of her release, the daily newspaper said today.
The Italian government said it was the U.S. military that fired on the vehicle. A U.S. military spokesman confirmed the incident but wouldn't say who fired the shots.
The shooting was ``a grave accident that someone will have to take responsibility for,'' Italy's Prime Minister Berlusconi said at a press conference held in Rome.
The reporter's wounds aren't life threatening, according to Il Manifesto, the Communist newspaper for which she writes.
Sgrena, an opponent of the war in Iraq, was held hostage by five or six ``very religious'' people, including a woman, she told prosecutors in Rome, reported Corriere. They spoke to her in Arabic, French, and broken English, she wrote in Il Manifesto.
Life Saver
Calipari saved Sgrena's life by shielding her with his body, Berlusconi said. He helped free three other hostages in Iraq, the Italian Prime Minister said. There will be a state funeral for the intelligence officer in Rome tomorrow.
Berlusconi and President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi joined Calipari's family late yesterday at Rome's Ciampino airport, to receive his flag-draped coffin carried by a military honor guard, the Associated Press reported.
The prime minister has pledged to leave Italy's 3,000 soldiers in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah until the new government in Baghdad asks for a withdrawal. Italy has the fourth- largest contingent of the 29 countries with soldiers in Iraq. Only the U.S., U.K. and South Korea have more.
Sgrena, who appeared in a Feb. 16 video pleading for Italy to withdraw its soldiers from Iraq, was headed toward the airport for a homebound flight when she was shot. She arrived back in Italy yesterday, having undergone two operations during the night, Italy's TG5 television news reported.
Bill Harsey
03-06-2005, 12:52
Just a random thought here:
If the "Americans" wanted her dead I think she would be.
Well, she's alive and she's lucky. If you were to say not slow down as Police were doing a drinking/driving check stop, there would be serious reprecussions. It's obvious the troops were acting within the ROEs[whatever they might be]. They obviously felt the car posed a threat; so they fired. I would.
If it does get political, I hope the US doesn't do what the UK did to Pte. Lee Clegg[?]. He was the Para who got thrown in Jail, for shooting and killing a couple of drunk kids who didn't slow down for a VCP in NI.
What would the troops think if one of those guys got thrown in Jail, for acting responsibly within the ROEs?
Ughhh, politics.
Kyobanim
03-06-2005, 14:55
Let's see if I can phrase my sentiments properly . . .
Tough shit commie bitch
Have a nice day
Just a random thought here:
If the "Americans" wanted her dead I think she would be.
Exactly my first thought. I read in another article that this "harrowing ordeal" was the most dramatic day of her life. You'd think it would be the day she was kidnapped. It would not surprise me to learn she staged the entire kidnapping.
As a civilian, having never been to a war zone, even I know if I see Troops giving the "stop" signal I damn well better do so.
brewmonkey
03-06-2005, 19:45
Read the story again and you will see that she has changed her story from it was a checkpoint to they were engaged by a patrol. Why the change?
It is on all the major new sources/wires so this is not just one small fuckup by a small paper...:eek:
Read the story again and you will see that she has changed her story from it was a checkpoint to they were engaged by a patrol. Why the change?
It is on all the major new sources/wires so this is not just one small fuckup by a small paper...:eek:
Why? Because liars can't keep their BS straight...eventually they will always get caught.
Eagle5US
03-06-2005, 19:59
Let's see if I can phrase my sentiments properly . . .
Tough shit commie bitch
Have a nice day
:D :D :D
Eagle
brewmonkey
03-06-2005, 20:12
Here is a transcript of her "debrief" by the BBC...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm
Within the transcript she claims their car was destroyed.
Did the Americans continue to fire when your car had come to a halt?
Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.
Here is a picture of their car...Where is the damage?
:eek:
The lies are coming undone, as Gypsy pointed out liars have a tough time remembering how the lie goes.
brewmonkey
03-06-2005, 20:23
And yet more...
In this article she claims her captors WARNED her that the "US did not want her to return..."
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=72fbed6b-78ea-40a6-88a7-07d5cea36156
What's really funny is that on one site I visited there was a comment from someone that they believe all US troops have been given orders to do shit like this. Oh yea, we got over 500,000 Soldiers that have rotated through Iraq to be part of the GIANT conspiracy. :rolleyes:
Things that make you really wonder
ghuinness
03-06-2005, 20:54
Here is a picture of their car...Where is the damage?
from the tank....? :rolleyes: :D
"We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us..."
longrange1947
03-06-2005, 21:20
Casey - You have that one pegged exactly right.
Let us now add that the Italians mounted this op without US coordination AND traveled to the Airport without coordination. Let us add high rate fo speed toward a check point. No this is nothing more than another left grab for making the US look bad.
I do like the idea of CBS (commie broadcast system) sending a token Rather for an exchange victum.
GreenSalsa
03-07-2005, 02:33
``It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction,'' the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling prosecutors.
Her original statement was that there was NO lights...now there was lights...which was it? :confused:
Bluntly put her "rescuers" put together a poorly planned op...this is what happens when you fail to coordinate "reentry through friendly forward lines".
Bravo1-3
03-07-2005, 06:56
So we targeted her? OK, lets roll with that idea for a few seconds. If we "targeted" her, why is she still alive to run her mouth? If we had wanted her dead, and had her dead to rights, why is she around to tell the tale?
Bravo1-3
03-07-2005, 08:03
Here's a list of some of the "Value Added Journalism" she's been doing. With reporting like this, it's no wonder the Europeans are so "well informed".
Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004
Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004
The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004
“Stop the massacre”
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004
Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
CPTAUSRET
03-07-2005, 11:29
Here's a list of some of the "Value Added Journalism" she's been doing. With reporting like this, it's no wonder the Europeans are so "well informed".
Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004
Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004
The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004
“Stop the massacre”
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004
Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
A journalist with an agenda!!
The Reaper
03-07-2005, 11:50
A journalist with an agenda!!
I am surprised that she hasn't been hired by CBS or CNN.
Must be the language issue.
TR
CPTAUSRET
03-07-2005, 11:57
I am surprised that she hasn't been hired by CBS or CNN.
Must be the language issue.
TR
TR:
The day's not over, she still has a chance!
longrange1947
03-07-2005, 15:47
A journalist with an agenda!!
actually those quotes are very mild compared to some others, Likethe massacre of doctors by Marines, and that they fire at anythign that moves.
Yes, she has an agenda and it is the standard elitist European agenda of make the US look bad.
ghuinness
03-08-2005, 20:14
la Republica.it has posted some pictures of the vehicle. Click on the slideshow.
http://www.repubblica.it/index.html
click on: IMMAGINI: l'auto della Sgrena colpita
Just found the transcript of Bevelacqua on Fox yesterday (missed it). Some great comments:
"...
BEVELACQUA: Oh Shepard, you're going to make me say something I'm probably going to regret.
SMITH: That was the hope.
BEVELACQUA: It's unfortunate that she was released. She didn't deserve the faith and honor that was given to her, and the death of an Italian intelligence officer. She is supporting the animals that took her hostage, and she's using the death of a fellow countryman to help push her cause. It's disgusting.
SMITH: That's pretty strong, Bob. You think she is supporting those who "held her hostage"?
BEVELACQUA: Anybody that uses that type of anti-coalition rhetoric, she might as well be on Al-Jazeera. She is supporting their cause. She really doesn't want this to be a success, so she's going to jam whatever she can into the collective eye of the coalition. It's disgusting.
...."
longrange1947
03-08-2005, 20:22
Well from the glass it is obvious that they were not shooting at the occupants! It was just bad luck and that includes the one that died. He should have grabbed her sorry a** and pulled her on top of himself. She will now make as much from this as possible.
brewmonkey
03-08-2005, 21:07
la Republica.it has posted some pictures of the vehicle. Click on the slideshow.
http://www.repubblica.it/index.html
Just found the transcript of Bevelacqua on Fox yesterday (missed it). Some great comments:
"...
BEVELACQUA: Oh Shepard, you're going to make me say something I'm probably going to regret.
SMITH: That was the hope.
BEVELACQUA: It's unfortunate that she was released. She didn't deserve the faith and honor that was given to her, and the death of an Italian intelligence officer. She is supporting the animals that took her hostage, and she's using the death of a fellow countryman to help push her cause. It's disgusting.
SMITH: That's pretty strong, Bob. You think she is supporting those who "held her hostage"?
BEVELACQUA: Anybody that uses that type of anti-coalition rhetoric, she might as well be on Al-Jazeera. She is supporting their cause. She really doesn't want this to be a success, so she's going to jam whatever she can into the collective eye of the coalition. It's disgusting.
...."
For those who cannot read that page try this translation. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.repubblica.it/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.repubblica.it/index.html%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client %3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official)
Weazle23
03-09-2005, 02:18
Here is a transcript of her "debrief" by the BBC...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm
Within the transcript she claims their car was destroyed.
Here is a picture of their car...Where is the damage?
:eek:
The lies are coming undone, as Gypsy pointed out liars have a tough time remembering how the lie goes.
If she thinks that car is destroyed, I could show her several former vehicles that that look like they were nuked. Iv'e seen cars come out worse than that after being introduced and shaking tires with a humvee with no known injuries.
Bill Harsey
03-09-2005, 08:30
What make of car is that?
That was hardly a fitting ride for a journalist of such high importance.
Ms. Malkin can really cut through the BS.
http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/mmalkin/2005/mm_03091.shtml
The Ransom Of The Red Reporter
By Michelle Malkin
March 9, 2005
International furor over Giuliana Sgrena, an Italian communist writer who claims American troops in Iraq may have deliberately shot at her car after she was released by kidnappers, misses the bigger scandal.
The scandal is not that an anti-war propagandist has accused the U.S. of targeting journalists. That's par for the course. (Yes, hello again, Eason Jordan.)
The scandal is not that mainstream media sympathizers are blaming our military and dredging up every last shooting accident along the treacherous routes to Baghdad Airport. Again, no surprise here.
The scandal is that Italy -- our reputed ally in the global War on Terror -- negotiated with Sgrena's Islamist kidnappers and may have forked over a massive ransom to cutthroats for Sgrena's release.
Where is the uproar over this Islamist insurgency subsidy plan?
Iraqi politician Younadem Kana told Belgian state TV that he had "non-official" information that Italy paid the terrorists $1 million in tribute. The Washington Times, citing the Italian newspaper La Stampa, pinned the ransom figure at $6 million. Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported that the Italian government forked over between $10 million and $13.4 million to free Sgrena.
Whatever the final tally, it's a whopping bounty that will undoubtedly come in handy for cash-hungry killers in need of spiffy new rocket-propelled grenade launchers, AK-47s, mortars, landmines, components for vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices, and recruitment fees. (To put this windfall in perspective, bear in mind that the 9/11 plot was a half-million dollar drop in the bucket for Osama bin Laden.)
Or maybe Italian advocates of this terrorist get-rich-quick scheme think the thugs will spend their money on Prada handbags and Versace couture.
Both the Italian government and members of the Iraq Islamic Army who abducted Sgrena vehemently deny that money was exchanged. Yet, even as his government officially rebuffed reports of a ransom arrangement in the Sgrena affair, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi was quoted by the newspaper Il Messaggero conceding: "We have to rethink our strategy in dealing with kidnappings."
A little late for a do-over, don't you think?
According to the New York Post, Lucia Annunziata, former president of Italian state television RAI, said government sources estimate Italy has paid kidnappers nearly $15 million for hostages in the past year alone. Indeed, last September, Gustavo Selva, chairman of parliament's foreign affairs committee, confirmed that two Italian aid workers -- who praised their kidnappers as "resisters" -- were freed after the government paid at least $1 million in cash to their Iraqi captors.
The admission came after heated denials by top government officials. Selva, auditioning Italy for a spot in the Axis of Weasels pantheon, mused at the time: "In principle, we shouldn't give in to blackmail, but this time we had to, although it's a dangerous path to take because, obviously, it could encourage others to take hostages, either for political reasons or for criminal reasons."
How do you say "No duh" in Italian?
To be fair to Italy, which continues to maintain a 3,000-troop presence in Iraq despite enormous anti-war pressure, its reported payoffs to terrorists are dwarfed by the mollycoddlers in Manila and Malaysia, who have fed Abu Sayyaf's head-chopping kidnappers tens of millions in tribute over the past several years money that is now reportedly being channeled to worldwide al Qaeda operations.
Still, you would expect a country that once embraced the defiant spirit of Fabrizio Quattrochi -- the murdered Italian security guard taken hostage in Iraq last year who stoically told his assassins, "I'm going to show you how an Italian dies" -- to resist the Quisling impulse with every fiber of its collective being.
The consequences of capitulation are bloody obvious. When you allow your people to be used as terrorist collection plates, the thugs will keep coming back for more. Might as well hang a sign around the neck of every Italian citizen left in Iraq: Buon appetito.
aricbcool
04-25-2005, 17:29
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050425/2005-04-25T205742Z_01_N25497833_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-ITALY-USA-DC.html
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. investigators have found that American troops who shot dead an Italian agent at a Baghdad checkpoint on March 4 committed no wrongdoing and will not be disciplined, an Army official said on Monday.
But Italy disagrees with key findings in the preliminary report by the U.S. military investigators and has balked at endorsing it, added the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
U.S. troops fatally shot the Italian intelligence officer, Nicola Calipari, when they opened fire on a car heading for Baghdad airport in which he was escorting Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, a hostage who had just been released.
The friendly fire incident has caused tension between the United States and Italy, one of America's staunchest allies in Iraq. Calipari was fatally wounded as he threw his body over Sgrena to protect her from a hail of bullets. She was wounded but survived.
The Army official said Italy was disputing two factual issues in the report: the speed of the car as it approached the checkpoint; and the nature of communications between the Italians and U.S. forces in Iraq before the incident.
"The soldiers were only complying with the standard operating procedures for those checkpoints, so therefore are not culpable to dereliction of duty (charges)," the Army official said. "Everybody feels terrible about it. But given the climate and the security atmosphere, the security procedures at the checkpoint operations have to be run by the letter."
Good to go, glad to see this.
Bill Harsey
04-25-2005, 18:47
One of the small items of information I've seen on the national broadcast television news here in the United States was that the Italians failed to mention to anyone involved in military operations what they were up to, that is recovering a "kidnap victim", and getting her out of the country.
The Reaper
04-25-2005, 20:48
One of the small items of information I've seen on the national broadcast television news here in the United States was that the Italians failed to mention to anyone involved in military operations what they were up to, that is recovering a "kidnap victim", and getting her out of the country.
Recovering? No.
Paying terrorists a ransom for her, yes.
TR
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050429/pl_afp/italyusiraqsatellite_050429162837;_ylt=Arjg3cLaI9S skuMfdpXZv8GsOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVR PUCUl
You've got to watch out for those pesky satellites:
The report, which aired Thursday on CBS News, said US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour.
Giuliana Sgrena has said the car was traveling at a normal speed of about 30 miles an hour when the soldiers opened fired, wounding her and killing Nicola Calipari, the Italian agent who had just secured her release from a month's captivity.
Bill Harsey
05-01-2005, 09:01
This is rather inconvenient information...
for the Italian reporter.
In reading the article it is said the current Italian complaint is that the check point was not well marked.
Let me think...Turning onto a known insurgent targeted roadway and seeing Uniformed Soldiers with road blocking devices vehicles, firearms and flashing lights, naaaw, that's just some kids on spring break.
Maybe we should set out some nice wine for them next time.
rubberneck
05-01-2005, 10:47
It said the soldiers manning the checkpoint first spotted the Italian car when it was 137 yards (meters) away. By the time they opened fire and brought the car to a halt, it was 46 yards (meters) away. CBS said that happened in less than three seconds, which meant the car had to be going over 60 miles an hour.
CBS said Italian investigators refused to accept that the Americans were justified in shooting so quickly, arguing among other things that the checkpoint was not properly marked.
To me this says it all. What semi-intelligent person would conclude that the troops acted to hastily. It's not like they engaged a car that was 300 meters from their position. Hell I can throw a football from the soldiers position over where the car stopped. If you ask me the troops showed a good deal of restraint. If that had been a suicide bomber that restraint could have cost them their lives. Those toads that want to pass judgement should spend a night or two manning a checkpoint on the BIAP. I know I wouldn't want to.
Airbornelawyer
05-01-2005, 17:35
The U.S. investigative report on the incident was released in PDF format. Whoever was in charge of doing this apparently created a PDF document and then redacted the classified information, using a black-out tool in Adobe. Enterprising Italian journalists noted that if you copy and paste the redacted text into Word, the hidden text reappears. As a result of this clusterfuck, classified information on what we know of terrorist TTPs and what our TTPs are for these situations is now being circulated on the Internet.
Kyobanim
05-01-2005, 18:27
Maybe we should set out some nice wine for them next time. they've already got whine, how about some cheese to go with it?
The U.S. investigative report on the incident was released in PDF format. Whoever was in charge of doing this apparently created a PDF document and then redacted the classified information, using a black-out tool in Adobe. Enterprising Italian journalists noted that if you copy and paste the redacted text into Word, the hidden text reappears. As a result of this clusterfuck, classified information on what we know of terrorist TTPs and what our TTPs are for these situations is now being circulated on the Internet. Obviously, this person is a poser and is not authorized to wear this:
longrange1947
05-01-2005, 19:21
Actually is it too late to shoot the dumb SOB that posted the mess in the first place WITH the text still in it?
jasonglh
05-01-2005, 20:02
According to the report that is now plastered all over the internet with the full names of all involved the car had 11 bullet holes.
Yeah thats certainly destroyed. :rolleyes:
Bill Harsey
05-01-2005, 21:26
According to the report that is now plastered all over the internet with the full names of all involved the car had 11 bullet holes.
Yeah thats certainly destroyed. :rolleyes:
Jeeeeeeez, I have more bullet holes than that in the shop I work in.
Cincinnatus
05-02-2005, 07:10
Some of my teachers in high school had more holes in their hides than that. Some on this board probably do, too!
Manstein
05-03-2005, 08:06
Actually is it too late to shoot the dumb SOB that posted the mess in the first place WITH the text still in it?
I wonder if Novak was behind this one too ;)