View Full Version : I need some help
brock.buddles
03-04-2005, 09:44
I need some help if anyone can help me. I'm going to be going through the 18 E course and i was wondering if anyone could help me on some information that i can start studying on so i can get the one up. So if anyone could help me just please email me or i'll be checking later thank you. brock.buddles@us.army.mil
This is a general comment good for all MOS's.
Concentrate on what you are doing. Getting a "leg up" can work against you. Unless things have changed, they will teach you everything you need to know and more in the course.
Read a few books on the underground and covert opns during WWII. Nothing technical but interesting info on clandestine communications. Leave the technical stuff to the instructors.
Just my opinion.
The Reaper
03-04-2005, 09:58
Where are you in the Pipeline?
TR
Let me add one thing. Presuming they still teach Morse Code you may get a leg up there. I spent a lot of my evenings in Ding Dong School trying to master the 18 WPM sending and receiving tests. :eek:
Do a search and there are several sites (some free) on the Web where you can learn and practice.
A book on BASIC antenna theory can be helpful. The AARL Antenna Handbook was my bible and I almost always had it with me.
It is a great MOS. I'm glad to see they are sending more experienced students there. In my day the commo and demo classes were almost all pvts and Pfcs like me. The older soldiers with prior service tended to go to weapons and O&! training.
I lied in a privious post. I did get promoted in Training Group -- from Pvt E-2 to Pfc E-3. :D
The Reaper
03-04-2005, 11:14
Let me add one thing. Presuming they still teach Morse Code you may get a leg up there.
They do not.
TR
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-04-2005, 11:59
They do not.
TR
I sorry to hear that. I took great satisfaction losing a great chunk of my ass with Baratto and Davis keeping it in the 18E program.
Jack Moroney
The Reaper
03-04-2005, 12:13
I sorry to hear that. I took great satisfaction losing a great chunk of my ass with Baratto and Davis keeping it in the 18E program.
Jack Moroney
Sir:
I was there for that meeting. Some of the stupidest questions I ever heard were asked that day.
This decision to drop it was made about two or three years ago.
I agree that I liked having that capability, but it was decided that the time was better spent learning about computers and modern electronics.
Plus, as you know, it was a significant attrition point, even after dropping the standard to 15/15 GPM.
TR
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-04-2005, 12:22
Sir:
Plus, as you know, it was a significant attrition point, even after dropping the standard to 15/15 GPM.
TR
So is the loss of an entire team because they couldn't make commo. Probably of all the MOSs, and I know I will probably get my nuts in a ringer over this, I felt that this was the most critical to the team. I felt so strongly about this that I required each of my teams to have two cross trained folks in commo and made sure all officers could send and receive at least 10 wpm so that they understood the complexities of what it took to get stuff out and in. On some of my exercises I would cache a walkman in one place, put a tape in a dead drop with the exfil msg on it at 16 wpm. If you couldn't recover the cache and dead drop and break the msg I let you wander around until I was ready to let you come home by activating an emergency contact procedure.
Jack Moroney
The Reaper
03-04-2005, 12:30
So is the loss of an entire team because they couldn't make commo. Probably of all the MOSs, and I know I will probably get my nuts in a ringer over this, I felt that this was the most critical to the team. I felt so strongly about this that I required each of my teams to have two cross trained folks in commo and made sure all officers could send and receive at least 10 wpm so that they understood the complexities of what it took to get stuff out and in. On some of my exercises I would cache a walkman in one place, put a tape in a dead drop with the exfil msg on it at 16 wpm. If you couldn't recover the cache and dead drop and break the msg I let you wander around until I was ready to let you come home by activating an emergency contact procedure.
Jack Moroney
Jefe:
Not arguing the point, but consider this.
We have currently been at war for more than three years.
None of the SF casualties in this war I am aware of, or mission failures have resulted from an inability to make commo. IIRC, most have been from the USAF dropping ordnance on friendlies, with commo up.
Not saying that it can't or won't happen, but it hasn't been a significant factor so far, as far as I know.
TR
I think the GWOT is bigger than Middle East. However, I always thought of a SF medic as the best trained and most valuable member of a team in a UWOA. Not just for taking care of the troops but also MEDCAP.
Considering the changes/upgrades in communications, the challenge now lies in the complexity of setting up and establishing communications. Everything is computerized and technology is changing so fast. By the time I finished the Echo course, through Sage, Language School and SERE there was already new equipment on the team that I had not seen.
With the -137, HF commo has changed. You can damn near drag a 30' wire behind you and make commo on the move with a low probablity of being detected, if that was a concern in todays combat situations. Although, there where days (and nights) in Max Gain doing single channel HF data that I wished I had known morse code to burn my message through.
Good point para. When all else fails it seems you can pick up IMC. Even back when we were beginning high speed commo, a short burst of static could wipe out a whole page of info.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-04-2005, 13:27
Jefe:
None of the SF casualties in this war I am aware of, or mission failures have resulted from an inability to make commo. IIRC, most have been from the USAF dropping ordnance on friendlies, with commo up.
TR
Point taken and understood, however I am not talking about the upper level of spectrum of conflict but the lower level. UW, plans for folks to go into areas now denied to us, urban opns where you may not be able to get a satellite shot, areas where the ability to just send and receive over a ground return line, lights, and other non-sophiscated means. The stuff we have now works great while the birds are flying and base stations are in range. Think long range commo where HF is the only option and atmospheric conditions absolutely suck. Code will always get thru where voice and data will not. I don't know, maybe this dinosauer's time has come and gone. Maybe I just don't think that technology is always the answer. Maybe I just am getting to old to change. And then maybe guys like Walker, Thorington, and other hard core commo guys that beat me around the head and shoulders from the 10th and could magically make commo anytime and anywhere just hit a spot of nostalgia for me where I feel that I might be betraying their efforts and skills. At any rate, it still pisses me off and I think it is a big mistake at the expense of graduating the appropriate number of folks from the 18E program.
Jack Moroney
Point taken and understood, however I am not talking about the upper level of spectrum of conflict but the lower level. UW, plans for folks to go into areas now denied to us, urban opns where you may not be able to get a satellite shot, areas where the ability to just send and receive over a ground return line, lights, and other non-sophiscated means. The stuff we have now works great while the birds are flying and base stations are in range. Think long range commo where HF is the only option and atmospheric conditions absolutely suck. Code will always get thru where voice and data will not. I don't know, maybe this dinosauer's time has come and gone. Maybe I just don't think that technology is always the answer. Maybe I just am getting to old to change. And then maybe guys like Walker, Thorington, and other hard core commo guys that beat me around the head and shoulders from the 10th and could magically make commo anytime and anywhere just hit a spot of nostalgia for me where I feel that I might be betraying their efforts and skills. At any rate, it still pisses me off and I think it is a big mistake at the expense of graduating the appropriate number of folks from the 18E program.
Jack Moroney
For this scenario, the -137 ALE is your huckleberry. You are rarely going to detect or intercept it, you are not going to jam it and with the right antenna, a Kaluha Off-Center, short of a serious solar storm, atmospheric conditions will rarely effect it.
NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2005, 14:00
I think the GWOT is bigger than Middle East. However, I always thought of a SF medic as the best trained and most valuable member of a team in a UWOA. Not just for taking care of the troops but also MEDCAP.
I like you. Let's be friends. :)
NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2005, 14:06
As for the code - we are dealing with people that have gone back to the way things used to be done. Didn't UBL, quit using cell phones, email etc., after they figured out the No Such was reading the mail?
Maybe it's not a critical skill anymore, but...
In the early 90s we had Battalion CSMs and CDRs telling us there was no more SF DA and UW missions to be had.
When I buy a new hammer for my tool box (only tool I know how to use), I don't throw the old one out.
I would have them keep learning it. Maybe not make it a deal breaker for the MOS.
Where do the Demo men come from? I always thought they were commo drop outs. :p :D :D
Roguish Lawyer
03-04-2005, 14:47
Soldiers are not prohibited from learning morse on their own time, are they?
NousDefionsDoc
03-04-2005, 14:53
Soldiers are not prohibited from learning morse on their own time, are they?
No. Nor are the prohibited from raking their teeth down a chalk board over and over. Both equally enjoyable.
CommoGeek
03-04-2005, 15:14
Why not teach IMC at ANCOC for the Echos or make IMC a requirment before attending the 18F course? Not that a Fox will need it but you make your Senior everythings learn it so some code knowledge is on the team.
In the early 90s we had Battalion CSMs and CDRs telling us there was no more SF DA and UW missions to be had.
in the 70s and 80s there were Battalion CSMs and CDRs telling us we needed to send manual CW from within the Soviet bloc...in the next breath, they would tell us we were only going to do SICTA, as UW was dead...there was no resistance potential in the former Warsaw Pact...
manual CW...oh, well...
Where do the Demo men come from? I always thought they were commo drop outs.
we come from Zydor, a planet in a galaxy far away...we came here to break your radios...da-da-di-dah...
Airbornelawyer
03-04-2005, 15:25
Going back to the original query, CG might have a better perspective since he spent more time in a SIGDET with Echo wannabes and gonnabes than I did, but I don't recall a commo equivalent of the Gross Anatomy Coloring Book advice for prospective 18Ds.
Learning the basics of radio and wave theory might be helpful, but I think Terry D.'s original piece of advice is soundest: they will teach you the specific skills you need to know (I am agnostic on the AIMC issue - 15/15 cut down somewhat on attrition but it also cut down on useful Morse skill).
We soaked up what we could from the more experienced, but our team daddy's advice to the course-bound was to focus on (i) physical and mental preparedness and (ii) land nav. The cadre will teach you what you need to know about making commo; it's the draw monster you need to be prepared for.
Soldiers are not prohibited from learning morse on their own time, are they?
alot of radio operators pursue licensure as HAM operators...i believe, even in that endeavor, knowledge of morse code is becoming a thing of the past...but my dad got a HAM license after retirement and before passing away had an engineer's license...all he ever used was morse code...and he was self-taught...if you want or need something bad enough, there's a way to get it done...
a guy in the Q course might be short on spare time, though...
uboat509
03-04-2005, 17:14
Where do the Demo men come from? I always thought they were commo drop outs. :p :D :D
We don't actually use radios, we just make sure that the Echo's handreciepts are updated with all their new hightech toys that they keep getting. As for Charlies being commo dropouts, when I was in the course the Delta course was refered to as the preCharlie course.
SFC W
As for a previous statement about attritin, I believe they had the proper solution in the sixties. When selected for 051 training almost everyone said: "Oh no, anything but that. I want to shoot things and blow things up!!". The answer was if you want to be SF you will be an SF commo man. There were no reclassifications to another MOS and the attrition dropped drastically. :D
On another tack, I was the most protected man on my team in Germany. On FTX's I couldn't take a dump without an escort. Life was somewhat boring because they never let me go on the fun things like raids and ambushes. I was the ticket home and treated that way. Many times I was stashed at a location and separated from the team. I walked miles between contacts to avoid being scarfed up. They used runners between me and the team.
By the time I got to RVN I was ready to volunteer for recon. Commo was well represented on Recon teams.
CommoGeek
03-04-2005, 18:46
Going back to the original query, CG might have a better perspective since he spent more time in a SIGDET with Echo wannabes and gonnabes than I did, but I don't recall a commo equivalent of the Gross Anatomy Coloring Book advice for prospective 18Ds.
Learning the basics of radio and wave theory might be helpful, but I think Terry D.'s original piece of advice is soundest: they will teach you the specific skills you need to know (I am agnostic on the AIMC issue - 15/15 cut down somewhat on attrition but it also cut down on useful Morse skill).
We soaked up what we could from the more experienced, but our team daddy's advice to the course-bound was to focus on (i) physical and mental preparedness and (ii) land nav. The cadre will teach you what you need to know about making commo; it's the draw monster you need to be prepared for.
Everyone we sent was an experienced 74C or 31C so they had antenna theory down. What we were told was that it helped, but wasn't necessary. Literally every tool a prospective 18E needs will be provided during the course, a signal meter being the one exception which can be purchased for a minimal amount; knowledge is provided by the best communicators in the world and the onus to learn is on the student.
The general rules found on this board apply for the 18B or 18E or 18D or 18C courses: don't quit, follow instructions, don't be late, light, or last.
The last time I used Code was in Robin Sage back in 98. In my opinion code is as out dated as the prc-77. If you war game it, you can come up with times you might use it, but that situation would be so rare as to be pointless, and even if you do send it, there is no one at the FOB who can copy it.
If you want to brush up on something, focus on computers. Learn basic networking, and if you don't know how to type, get a cheap typing program, and learn. Everything else will be tought as needed. And as for being the most protected man on the team, not anymore. With some of the new wiz bang gear we have, even a delta (for NDD) can learn, with some cross training.
If you want a contigency learn semiphore, wig wag and other non electronic means. We are wrapped up in an an insurgency but even terrorists can get a hold of an EMP device. When I was still on AD I remember reading of a CO in the 4th ID who made his people operate without radios at one day per week. During the cold war it was a given that we or the USSR would detonate EMP producing devices making radios and computors useless.
I once heard on the History Channel that in Roman times, info could be transmitted across the Isle of England in less than an hour.
Point taken and understood, however I am not talking about the upper level of spectrum of conflict but the lower level. UW, plans for folks to go into areas now denied to us, urban opns where you may not be able to get a satellite shot, areas where the ability to just send and receive over a ground return line, lights, and other non-sophiscated means. The stuff we have now works great while the birds are flying and base stations are in range. Think long range commo where HF is the only option and atmospheric conditions absolutely suck. Code will always get thru where voice and data will not. I don't know, maybe this dinosauer's time has come and gone. Maybe I just don't think that technology is always the answer. Maybe I just am getting to old to change. And then maybe guys like Walker, Thorington, and other hard core commo guys that beat me around the head and shoulders from the 10th and could magically make commo anytime and anywhere just hit a spot of nostalgia for me where I feel that I might be betraying their efforts and skills. At any rate, it still pisses me off and I think it is a big mistake at the expense of graduating the appropriate number of folks from the 18E program.
Jack Moroney
In reference to your statement above sir, I think the course should teach differant forms of clandestine communications. Email encryption, hiding your ISP, modern forms of encrypting messages. There are so many programs out there, there offer better encryption, than what is approved for use, for the military. If you are working in an urban enviornment you wouldn't even need to have anything more than a laptop computer, to make comms ie less of a signature.
If the bad guys are using it, and we are having problems breaking it, than we should be safe in using it for our messages.
NousDefionsDoc
04-01-2005, 12:32
The last time I used Code was in Robin Sage back in 98. In my opinion code is as out dated as the prc-77. If you war game it, you can come up with times you might use it, but that situation would be so rare as to be pointless, and even if you do send it, there is no one at the FOB who can copy it.
If you want to brush up on something, focus on computers. Learn basic networking, and if you don't know how to type, get a cheap typing program, and learn. Everything else will be tought as needed. And as for being the most protected man on the team, not anymore. With some of the new wiz bang gear we have, even a delta (for NDD) can learn, with some cross training.
PRC-77s are ubiquitous in my AO still. IMC is still truly international. What are you going to do when you go to some hole and it is the only means available? POWs used code while held. Tools in the box.
If you want a contigency learn semiphore, wig wag and other non electronic means.
Excellent advice QRQ.
PRC-77s are ubiquitous in my AO still. IMC is still truly international. What are you going to do when you go to some hole and it is the only means available? POWs used code while held. Tools in the box.
We don't see much FM in my AO, they mostly use icom's and sattelite phones.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-01-2005, 14:54
in an urban enviornment you wouldn't even need to have anything more than a laptop computer, to make comms ie less of a signature.
If the bad guys are using it, and we are having problems breaking it, than we should be safe in using it for our messages.
Agree, but it depends on the environment, the urban setting, the requirements of the mission, etc. As far as code goes, it isn't just applicable for FM/AM commo and has tremendous applications in any number of situations from "wigwag", lights, ground return circuits, etc.
Jack Moroney
Well we kind of got all around the original question. But I would like to add my own .02. I was involved with some friends in a modern (i.e. ongoing) GWOT. The commo means being used are CW, FM, Packet and Internet. It runs a pretty full gaunlet of communications depending on the teams and the area. So I agree with Jack, I wouldn't leave anything out of my toolbox.
I learned my basics from Ham Radio. I was a ham for years before becoming SF Commo. While the instruction is pretty good, it is a bit lean on theory at times (way back then anyway). Ham Radio is a great foundation for anything you are going to do with commo. It has it all, from CW to the latest digial modes. And like the new stuff in the military pipelines it has software defined radios that operate in all the latest digital modes.
So my advice, pick up the ARRL antenna books, learn some basic electric theory, and if you have time - by all means learn some code - you just never know when it might be useful to communicate to the Gs in the GWOT...
BTW - in this GWOT there weren't any plugs for laptops in the area - and the internet runs through a gov't proxy in and out...
So, do they still teach map and compass land nav, or is that outdated with the small, reliable GPS receivers now available? :munchin
The Reaper
04-15-2005, 08:28
So, do they still teach map and compass land nav
Yes.
is that outdated with the small, reliable GPS receivers now available? :munchin
No.
TR
So, do they still teach map and compass land nav, or is that outdated with the small, reliable GPS receivers now available?
definitely not...i'm out and about in the woods alot these days...i carry a hand-held GPS, a map and a compass...GPS is another tool in the kit, but it is not an answer unto itself...i can see where one might become very reliant on GPS out in the western desert between SA and Syria, but in the woods, in areas where relief and topography are evident, in my (hardly ever) humble opinion, map and compass are better tools...bearings vary wildly with a handheld GPS, especially in the trees or down in canyons...i find that if all i have for a nav-aids are a hand-held and a bad map, i spend more time looking at the screen of the hand-held than i do looking at the terrain...it's dangerous for a surveyor and could be fatal for a soldier...INMSHO...
Sorry, I was just stirring the pot a bit above, with the talk about code being obsolete and relying on the high tech gadgetry to make comms.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-15-2005, 11:09
Sorry, I was just stirring the pot a bit above, with the talk about code being obsolete and relying on the high tech gadgetry to make comms.
I know, I know-the devil made you do it :)
Jack Moroney
Sorry, I was just stirring the pot a bit above, with the talk about code being obsolete and relying on the high tech gadgetry to make comms.
i'd keep stirring if i were you...there are a lot of folks in a lot of professions that think code, compasses, handwriting are parts of the past...i beg to disagree on all counts...
hell, i'd ride a horse to work if i had a place to keep it...
I don't think it is about what is outdated, more so, what is relevant to today's operational enviornment and being used on today's battlefield. Computer Applications replaced morse code in the POI and with more then a half-a-dozen laptops on my team, palm pilots, etc...it is necessary that newly trained Echo's have the skills needed to keep these systems functioning. Of course, they could teach both, but they just shortened the course. The course is not the end-all of education for a new SF soldier and it is imparitive to continue ones education.
p.s. Seeing the new GMV's integrated network system package that Group is testing out, new Echo's are definately going to need those computer skills.
The Reaper
04-16-2005, 07:29
Not that it was the sole factor, but the removal of IMC from the POI coincidentally removed the primary source of attrition from the 18E course.
This had been tried before, as COL Moroney and I are well aware.
I guess it comes down to whether you would rather for your team to have one 18E with good IMC skills, or two with the skills they have now, and no IMC.
The answer to that will depend on where you are and what you are trying to do.
TR
One thing that I am (somewhat) amazed at it the number of VFOG O5Bs that are computer professionals today. I guess it has something to do with the type of person that they are. So I am not too worried about them not learning code. If they see the need for it (and some will) they will learn it on their own.
The more things change the more they stay the same....It I was the team daddy I would set everyone down for some basic code lessons. Of course that is just me. I still have the command of Capt. Rodgers ringing in my hear "Don't forget nothing". I mean who ever thought they would need horses again??
I know one friend that worked on the simulation program that was adapted for SF, they insisted that the programmers include Mules for logistics. MULES?? Yep they are still being used in some AOs. That is the problem with our profession. We must work at all ends of the spectrum. You work with what the locals have.... UW is not going away soon. These wars of liberation will be there 100 years from now, and you can be sure that they will involve the primative (at least relative to the big boys) and the latest greatest technology.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-18-2005, 08:20
[QUOTE=rwt_bkk]. MULES?? Yep they are still being used in some AOs. That is the problem with our profession. QUOTE]
That brings back some memories. I can remember when Jake Jakovenko and I got the tasking to go out into the hinterlands of NC to find a farrier that had a bunch of mule shoes that had to get from him/her to Central America in 24 hours.
Talk about two guys who knew nothing about mules, much less farriers, jumping thru their apex to fill a requirement by hauling a couple of hundred pounds of shoes in the back of a suburban to Pope AFB by the quickest route available.
Jack Moroney-traveling shoe salesmen for equines
Trip_Wire (RIP)
04-18-2005, 11:41
One thing that I am (somewhat) amazed at it the number of VFOG O5Bs that are computer professionals today. I guess it has something to do with the type of person that they are. So I am not too worried about them not learning code. If they see the need for it (and some will) they will learn it on their own.
The more things change the more they stay the same....It I was the team daddy I would set everyone down for some basic code lessons. Of course that is just me. I still have the command of Capt. Rodgers ringing in my hear "Don't forget nothing". I mean who ever thought they would need horses again??
I know one friend that worked on the simulation program that was adapted for SF, they insisted that the programmers include Mules for logistics. MULES?? Yep they are still being used in some AOs. That is the problem with our profession. We must work at all ends of the spectrum. You work with what the locals have.... UW is not going away soon. These wars of liberation will be there 100 years from now, and you can be sure that they will involve the primative (at least relative to the big boys) and the latest greatest technology.
Mules:
As part of our training in the Korean War era Airborne Ranger Companies, we were sent to then Camp Carson, CO for Mountain/Cold weather training. As a part of this training we were trained to work with pack mules. The instructors and mules were from a artillery unit stationed there that packed their guns on mules.
These mule skinners were a tough bunch, almost as tough as the mules! These mules were really something else to work with! A few Rangers have the teeth mark scars to prove it. A lot of the mule skinners from that unit, wound up in the Rangers. I often wondered, if like a few other Rangers in the Companies, if volunteering for the Rangers was their way out of the unit. (Once selected for the training, nobody could stop the transfer.) BTW: I didn't get bit, almost kicked though.
As far as I know, no mules were used in combat in Korea by the (8) Companies who made it there. The idea for the mule, was to aid in operations behind enemy lines. especially long range patrols and raids was a good one, in that mountainous terrain. I guess someone thought back to WW II and Burma and the Marauders as well as in the mountains of Italy to some degree.
They (mules) might be a problem for Airborne Operations without gliders though! :D
A few Koreans with "A" frames was pressed into use in most cases, when I was in Korea. I was always impressed with the load those people could carry on them! :eek:
FearMonkey
06-25-2006, 19:33
I might be guilty of ressurecting a dead thread here, but in the spirit of talking about mules it might be interesting to know that the art of packing mules is still taught at Sage. This is my team enjoying a stroll with our favorite furry tanks. We also were the only team to have the pleasure of doing a large portion of our infil aided by mules. Thank God for those wonderful creatures!
6365
x SF med
06-25-2006, 19:37
In the 80's we used to send guys to Mule Skinner School
I might be guilty of ressurecting a dead thread here, but in the spirit of talking about mules it might be interesting to know that the art of packing mules is still taught at Sage. This is my team enjoying a stroll with our favorite furry tanks. We also were the only team to have the pleasure of doing a large portion of our infil aided by mules. Thank God for those wonderful creatures!
Well, before 9-11, USASOC Mountian Course taught a pack animal block. At one time 10th SFG Mtn Committee dropped it from the POI. But it made in back in 2000. As far as MTN OPS, that lesson plan/block should never go away. Just becuase 10th wasn't using them. Didn't mean others were not - well thats what I tried tell the walls that had legs.
I've been to two Handlers courses, great fun. A trade that is easily lost if not done often too.
Glad that Sage brought it back - lets see how long it stays.
10th is still doing mule packing in the mountian course we have sent guys to a local ranch for the past few years..
FYI failing code twice made me the bravo I am today god that was painful....
trying to copy that crap at 15 wpm.
Bill Harsey
07-09-2006, 18:15
I might be guilty of ressurecting a dead thread here, but in the spirit of talking about mules it might be interesting to know that the art of packing mules is still taught at Sage. This is my team enjoying a stroll with our favorite furry tanks. We also were the only team to have the pleasure of doing a large portion of our infil aided by mules. Thank God for those wonderful creatures!
6365
How fast can you tie a diamond hitch?
Good picture, looks like proper civilization to me.
FearMonkey
07-10-2006, 05:43
Well, I don't know exactly how long it would take me to tie a single diamond hitch, but I do know that it takes me and 11 friends the duration of BMNT to pack a couple mules tactically after a looooong night of walking.
We were shown the diamond, but the three configurations that really stick out in my mind are the Barrel Sling, Basket Sling, and Basket Hitch. However, we mostly employed the "Get this heavy shit off my back and tie it on to the mule anyway possible" hitch. It might be a hitch taught only to SOF. :D
Bill Harsey
07-10-2006, 08:09
...However, we mostly employed the "Get this heavy shit off my back and tie it on to the mule anyway possible" hitch. It might be a hitch taught only to SOF. :D
"The high speed, better than any mountain mule skinner ever knew how to do hitch"
I knew you guys would have this one figured out.
FearMonkey
07-10-2006, 08:18
Yeah, I can't release all the details in the clear but it involves tons of knots placed in random places all over the rucksack and holds for 10-15 minutes at a time before you have to hault movement and adjust the entire rig. Very effective. :)
Our instructor just stood off to the side and shook his head in shame. He looked a lot like this guy -----> :munchin
Bill Harsey
07-10-2006, 08:21
Yeah, I can't release all the details in the clear but it involves tons of knots placed in random places all over the rucksack and holds for 10-15 minutes at a time before you have to hault movement and adjust the entire rig. Very effective. :)
Our instructor just stood off to the side and shook his head in shame. He looked a lot like this guy -----> :munchin
LMAO!
This is even more fun when your traversing a shale rockslide in the snow.
(elk hunting...)
This is even more fun when your traversing a shale rockslide in the snow. (elk hunting...)there are times when there are worse things than carrying very heavy rucksacks across the mountains...those times are military operations and elk hunting...
Bill Harsey
07-10-2006, 08:27
there are times when there are worse things than carrying very heavy rucksacks across the mountains...those times are military operations and elk hunting...
You know about this stuff don't ya. I can't speak for military operations but those two easy little words "Elk hunting" sound like nothing but camping and outdoor fun.
You know about this stuff don't ya. I can't speak for military operations but those two easy little words "Elk hunting" sound like nothing but camping and outdoor fun.no...elk hunting means walking on the side of your feet on a talus slope in a snow storm, trying to get a large, dead animal somewhere that you can safely begin the process of cutting said large, dead animal into smaller more manageable pieces so you can transport said dead animal more easily on flat, even terrain...the whole point in dragging, winching, sliding, pushing, pulling this large, dead animal across a talus slope is because this method is easier than cutting it up into manageable pieces on top...of course, you think you only have to make one trip down the hill until you realize that your buddy left his $700 spotting scope back at the kill site...
nope...i ain't never been down that road...more than twice...
Bill Harsey
07-10-2006, 08:56
lkSteve,
Now we've really skidded this thread sideways. You know I was being smart when I made the comments about elk hunting. Around here it's in November, and in the Oregon mountains this is the time of the first winter storms bringing the rain turning to snow.
Elk bulls are usually somewhere between 600 to 900 lbs. Some will go to 1000 lbs. We've packed in, built camp, snows started and we didn't know if we would get out or not, oh well, huntings better in some snow conditions.
Elk never, during legal hunting season, occupy ground that two legged humans enjoy walking on. Said another way, ...Elk sometimes travel ground that humans have no business on.
Now to bring this back to pack mules, some mules won't carry a dead animal and will panic after trying to throw the load and getting tangled in the rigging. Know your pack string.
FearMonkey
07-10-2006, 10:30
You're absolutely right when you say know your pack string. I was amazed to see how they would absolutely refuse to cooperate unless they were in their proper order during movement. It turned out that the tiniest mule (we lovingly dubbed Alejandro!) was the toughest sumbitch of the group. His back end was wobbling and his knees looked like they were gonna buckle when we first threw our rucks on him, but he charged to the front and never stopped so much as to even nibble on a leaf.
Equines....orney but readable.......yeah they've got a pecking order and don't dare mess with it....Alejandro , the shortest, is the bad ass (pun intended) because of his stature, he can kick the soft underbelly of the others in the herd. Females will often be a dominate animal in the herd. If you learn to read equines ...you can take your knowledge to the race track and pick the winners too! Watch the ears.
Lots of lore on mules and burros here (West Texas) they can sense danger...and dangerous condition long before us two leggeds ....and they are just smart. May be getting burros to raise for guide animals for the blind (I wanted goats ...but honey bunch says they are just too stinky)
There is good series of pictures, on the net, of a mule that unloading a dead mountain lion from his back ...also shows same mule attacking the carcass (biting it in the head!)
Learn everything about commo and electronics. You are expected to be the expert on the subject for team and the commander.
For a UW enviornment during the Cold War morse code was essential...
Then the digital world ...the DMDG ('Dum Dog') required a 12dB signal in order for it to work well. Something similar for the -137 I would think. The -137 was an idea that came from the MIB in the mid to late '80s. Satellite comms for the Cold War was out of the question. Digital was and still is questionably unreliable due to electromagnetic pulse (EMP).
My opinion, I think we are getting to wrapped around our high tech toys to the point we lose the ability to fight mano a mano.
Joseph Priestley:
The more elaborate our means of communication, the less we communicate.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-23-2006, 05:07
[QUOTE=smitty]Learn everything about commo and electronics. You are expected to be the expert on the subject for team and the commander./QUOTE]
You can take him at his word. He was one of the best in the business if this is who I think it is.
BMT (RIP)
07-26-2006, 07:03
I make out to the Base Station once in awhile. The new GEE WHIZ systems look great and have some time saving features. What happen if your 'puter crashes??
BMT
I make out to the Base Station once in awhile. The new GEE WHIZ systems look great and have some time saving features. What happen if your 'puter crashes??
BMT
The war ends. LOL When in doubt, pull out the sat phone and go secure.
The war ends. LOL When in doubt, pull out the sat phone and go secure.
To me it doesn't matter if you drop a quarter in a pay phone or use X, K, wideband satcom and superheterodyne recievers. The question is did you get it?
I make out to the Base Station once in awhile. The new GEE WHIZ systems look great and have some time saving features. What happen if your 'puter crashes??
BMT
I played with both ends of the spectrum... Base Station, out station, high tech, no tech No particular preference so long as it works and it's reliable. Test comms while under duress (that's when you need it most). I'd be willing to bet that no military radio, used for voice communications, uses a compression amp on the input (esoteric humor).
smitty
Get proficient on Morse Code (CW) transmitting and recieving for openers. Get yourself up to at least 20wpm in and out, you can get faster later. Good Luck.
To me it doesn't matter if you drop a quarter in a pay phone or use X, K, wideband satcom and superheterodyne recievers. The question is did you get it?
I am tracking, PACE, redundancy within, etc... Just chalk up what I said as a large amount of frustration coming out as a sarcastic remark that should be truely left to discussions over cases of beer and scotch.
I am tracking, PACE, redundancy within, etc... Just chalk up what I said as a large amount of frustration coming out as a sarcastic remark that should be truely left to discussions over cases of beer and scotch.
That wouldn't hurt. But just having the code is good. I had non-05B's send and receive by writing down the dots and dashes . I worked the 10th Grp XMTR site and we used a mechanical keyer set to 14-16 gpm for BTB. Copying in a code room is different from copying in the snow, under a poncho with a red flashlight. Sending is a little shaky too under field conditions.
I agree code should continue to be a backup. Any port in a storm and the more tools in the chest the better.
I was watching a thing on the Brits in Burma in WWII and was amazed at how clear the IMC was at about 10wpm. It has been 30 years. Its like a bike, once you learn you never forget.
Aoresteen
08-05-2006, 18:35
I think it is a mistake to drop IMC. But as a HAM (W1AJO) I am biased. I was of the opinion that everyone on the team should be able to copy 10GPM so at least they could get the freq from the BTB and everyone should be able to cak up a tape (for burst). It isn’t that hard to do.
Yes I know that the digital modes and SAT links are faster and easier but are also more complex and have more points of failure. They also require more power to run.
One of the pressing issues for conventional units is the lack of bandwidth in satcom links. Everybody wants a channel and there are not enough to go around. Divisional HQs & Corp HQs units are re-looking at HF como as an alternative to crowded satcom links. Makes you wonder.
Consider this: What happens when Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan all go up in smoke and we are all trying to make como on very limited satcom links?:eek: If a nuke goes off you now have EMP issues to deal with. IMC will get through but voice and digital won’t. Forget about IP, the net will be down in strategic places and will be unreliable. HF is the last resort.
My main HAM rig is a Yaesu FT-817. 5 watts. It is TINY! I’m in Florida and I have worked the South Pacific, Caribbean, Canada, Europe, and Africa. I also use it to do local 2m FM work. I do have a small 50-watt linear amp but don’t use it much. Antenna? A G5RV dipole and a 20 to 10 meter beam are what I use. A Z100 HF antenna auto tuner makes it sing. A 12 watt version is possible and it could replace the AN/PRC-74/70 HF rigs easily.
The problem with the old HF technolgy wasn't with the mode or freq/bandwith; it was with the equipment that was just too damm heavy. With today's technologhy, a super lightweight HF radio is possible that doen't use a lot of power but will make reliable HF contacts. It seems we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
Tried & true burst IMC should be in every ODA’s bag of tricks, even if used only as plan B. Just my 2¢ worth.
Burst requires too clear of a channel. A crackle of interference wipes out a page.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-05-2006, 18:48
I I was of the opinion that everyone on the team should be able to copy 10GPM so at least they could get the freq from the BTB and everyone should be able to cak up a tape (for burst). It isn’t that hard to do.
.
I concur and made it a requirement in both B-Teams and the battalion I commanded.
Aoresteen
08-05-2006, 19:05
Burst requires too clear of a channel. A crackle of interference wipes out a page.
__________________
Terry D.
Terry,
That's true if you are using the the old GRA-71 burst technology. But with today's technology you could use a narrower slice of bandwidth and digital processing to reduce losses significantly. Think voice DSP processors optimized for CW with steep filtering. It would be a LOT better than what we were using 30 years ago.
You don't even need to know code. Most carried a card with IMC on it as well as a tri-graph.
That wouldn't hurt. But just having the code is good. I had non-05B's send and receive by writing down the dots and dashes
Burst requires too clear of a channel. A crackle of interference wipes out a page.
__________________
Terry D.
Terry,
That's true if you are using the the old GRA-71 burst technology. But with today's technology you could use a narrower slice of bandwidth and digital processing to reduce losses significantly. Think voice DSP processors optimized for CW with steep filtering. It would be a LOT better than what we were using 30 years ago.
Ibeg your pardon -- 29 years ago.:D I got out in 1977.:lifter